I'm writing...

[maniacmusician]

..a series of guides and articles. Yes, yet another user doing the same thing, etc etc. I'm trying to write a bunch of guides that are, for the most part, directed at brand new Linux users; but I'm trying to make the guides contextually rich. Too often, we give directions to newbies, and they follow them...and then they come back for help, again and again for similar things because they fail to grasp the concept of what they're doing. So basically, my guides are geared towards new users that actually want to learn how to use Linux, not just use it as a Windows replacement.

I got this idea after I started converting users to Linux. They would come back to me again and again for help instead of using their resources. So I decided I'd put as much knowledge as possible into a nice little readable book/website, and give that to them instead.

I've finished writing the first draft of the first article in a series called "Switching to Linux". I want to share this with you now, and get some feedback. General feedback, and then on some specific things that I'll ask you about. (at this point, I feel compelled to say; please read the entire post and the article before commenting)

I've divided my article up into sections, or "pages" rather. Each "page" is separated by a dotted line. I'm writing it in an online word processor; eventually, this will turn into a website/pdf file. This first article is titled "Switching to Linux, Part I: Evaluating Your Decision"; it's about deciding whether one really wants to try Linux. What I've put into it comes from knowledge I gained while poking around the forums, and I'm sure I took a bit of it out of some articles and posts of our member aysiu. I'd appreciate feedback; I know this article isn't exciting at all, but its the first and perhaps most important one. Thanks.

[LINK REMOVED] If you want to read the first chapter, go back to the new thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=448312 ) and read both chapter one and 2 from that location. I pointed people to this thread to allow them to gain an understanding of the project.

This is just the first draft. I haven't even done a second reading of it yet, I just finished typing it (started today as well :) ) so there might be a number of grammatical errors and such. And it might not be official enough for your taste, either; but I dunno. I'm just spitting this stuff out right now.

Here are the specific things I want to ask you:
1. I tried to keep this article short while informative; I undoubtedly missed some things. What do you think I missed that should have been in there? (mostly resolved, still open to suggestions)
2. Did you notice any blatant mistakes or fallacies?
3. Can you please point me to some sort of recent compatibility/known-to-work lists of wireless cards and webcams?
4. On the hardware page (2), I listed four devices that people have trouble with; are there any other devices that give people a lot of trouble, that I forgot to mention?
5. Eventually, this will be a website and pdf book. The banner across the top is something I threw together really quickly using Inkscape. I'm not a great graphics designer as you can probably tell; Is this good enough for me to use? (If someone is bored, alternative submissions are welcome :)

Sorry about the way it looks; its just a first rough draft.

I added a variations of the image below, which I think looks better than the one in the document. Please tell me if any of them are good enough to use or if I should try again, or get someone else to do one for me? Most importantly, answer the questions I asked. Any other feedback would be great too.

Thanks a lot, you guys rock.

PS: As I update the document, the page I link to automatically gets updated as well. So if you suddenly see a new section that wasn't there before, that's why.

[mushroom]

I'm not entirely sure a brand new Linux user would want to read a whole lot. A quick-start guide would be a bit more helpful, I would think.

[TheIdiotThatIsMe]

I'm not entirely sure a brand new Linux user would want to read a whole lot. A quick-start guide would be a bit more helpful, I would think.

While quickstarts are good, education is the final answer, or they will always feel foreign to the environment.

I strongly encourage this project, and will try to keep tabs on it! :)

[mushroom]

But does a truly intuitive interface really require reading paragraphs upon paragraphs of text? I didn't have to read much to learn Windows, and I'd hardly call that interface intuitive.

[maniacmusician]

I'm not entirely sure a brand new Linux user would want to read a whole lot. A quick-start guide would be a bit more helpful, I would think.


While quickstarts are good, education is the final answer, or they will always feel foreign to the environment.

I strongly encourage this project, and will try to keep tabs on it! :)

Thank you.

I'm totally aware that a quick-start guide would be more ideal for new users; however, as I mentioned in my first post, this is geared towards users that really want to learn how to use Linux, and use it for a long time; without running to me or someone else for help everytime something small goes wrong. I want users to be able to help themselves, and really know what they're doing. As TheIdiotThatIsMe (do you want a name-change? :) ) put it, I want to really educate them. Quick-start guides already exist.

I like the way I put it in my "logo"; "Understanding Ubuntu: We write Guides, not walkthroughs"

edit: mushroom, its not really about the interface. It's about installing linux yourself, choosing DEs and knowing the difference between what you choose, knowing what you'll need to do to adapt, how to use your resources, etc. I appreciate your opinion on this, but I've decided to go this way for sure, with a full blown guide. I just want observations on what I've written.

[raul_]

I'm going to follow this :) so far so good. Keep up

[maniacmusician]

I'm going to follow this :) so far so good. Keep up
thank you.

BTW (by the way), I'm not going to respond to every post :) I was just posting to say that I've already started on the rough draft of part two. I'll make modifications to part one when the suggestions start rolling in, or if I come up with more ideas. I'll start a second thread for part two in a couple of days after I've gotten enough feedback on this one.

thanks.

edit: if you guys wouldn't mind, please answer the questions that are in my post. Even if you don't have any suggestions, there's things like the logo which I need feedback on, and I asked for links and information about certain things. Please?

[pay]

One thing that I don't agree with is the bit about video cards in Linux. You say that ati don't release open source drivers but nVidia don't either. Also the nVidia open source drivers are very young right now so the ati open source drivers currently are superior. IMHO

[pay]

Ohh and printers are another piece of hardware that people have trouble with.

[maniacmusician]

One thing that I don't agree with is the bit about video cards in Linux. You say that ati don't release open source drivers but nVidia don't either. Also the nVidia open source drivers are very young right now so the ati open source drivers currently are superior. IMHO


Ohh and printers are another piece of hardware that people have trouble with.

done.

[pay]

Note: Drivers from the manufactureres are only necessary if you need 3D acceleration. Your desktop will still function normally if you use the default open-source drivers. This is recommended if possible, for the sake of keeping proprietary, closed source material out of your computer.That's not quite true. I'm using the open source radeon driver and I have 3d acceleration and I'm using aiglx. However the open driver doesn't support 3d with the newer generation of ati cards.

[maniacmusician]

right; but that's just getting nit-picky I think. for more than 90% of users, the open source drivers won't provide 3D acceleartion. You're just a lucky one.

I'm already treading the thin line between informative and confusing, so I think I'll keep that bit out, at least for now.

[pay]

right; but that's just getting nit-picky I think. for more than 90% of users, the open source drivers won't provide 3D acceleartion. You're just a lucky one.

I'm already treading the thin line between informative and confusing, so I think I'll keep that bit out, at least for now.Yeah I was aware that it was being "nit-picky", but I said it so people know that there is always that option. After all, if people didn't support open-source projects, then software like Linux wouldn't be at the level that it is now. I'm aware that this is even more "nit-picky" and isn't the sorta thing that you want to bloat your guide up, but I just wanted to share my oppion.

Another thing that alot of new Ubuntu users (From Windows and other Distros) have trouble with is compilling source code. It's esspecially annoying for a new user that finds a program that they would really like to use but it's not in the repos and doesn't provide binary files. Heres a quick howto on compilling source code http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=323939 . That's if you want to add something like that in your guide (You might think that compilling is alittle too advanced for someone only just starting.).

[Tux Aubrey]

Encouragement from me too. A couple of points:

I think the stuff on video cards may mislead some new users - what about intel cards and on-board video ? I don't have a lot of experience with 3D acceleration on these, but people do need to know that they work with Ubuntu just fine for every-day use anyway. I thought intel were heading to OS drivers?

Same is true for wireless - I cannot find one, but I'm told on a number of message boards that intel wireless works out-of-the-box with linux (ie. no ndiswrapper or work-arounds)

The banner is just fine. Not sure about the brain though (mine has a Matrix-style neural plug at the back for the "killer app" planned for feisty+5).

Keep going!

[maniacmusician]

nope, I was fully intending to include compiling, but that'll be in my next series. This series is called Switching to Linux; it'll help people find out what they want, and how to get it. It'll explain some basic philosophies and make sure that the user knows what they're getting into.

After that, I'll start another series, that'll branch out in a spider-web type of way to cover many things, and compiling will be one of them. Thanks for the link, that is a good one. If I use it, I may omit the "apt-source" stuff (with your permission), because if its in the repos, I don't see any point in having them compile it. Adapting it to real life situations as much as possible.

[maniacmusician]

Encouragement from me too. A couple of points:

I think the stuff on video cards may mislead some new users - what about intel cards and on-board video ? I don't have a lot of experience with 3D acceleration on these, but people do need to know that they work with Ubuntu just fine for every-day use anyway. I thought intel were heading to OS drivers?

Same is true for wireless - I cannot find one, but I'm told on a number of message boards that intel wireless works out-of-the-box with linux (ie. no ndiswrapper or work-arounds)

The banner is just fine. Not sure about the brain though (mine has a Matrix-style neural plug at the back for the "killer app" planned for feisty+5).

Keep going!
Oh god, I can't believe I forgot Intel! This is why I love you all :) you got my back. As for wireless, I'm looking for a wider compatibility list of some sort that has various brands and choices that the reader can look at.

The brain; I found it at openclipart.org. I meant for it to symbolize understanding and learning. If you have a better, open-source SVG, please throw it my way. I added a second picture as an attachment, it's just red, with the radial gradient moved back to the center of the picture. In case anyone likes it better. I'm still preferring the blue one ATM.

adding stuff about Intel now. edit: done. I made it look slightly better as well. I'll do some more formatting with it tomorrow, and maybe even a revision. Right now, I'm also working on a rough draft for part two. Going to sleep in a few minutes.

[pay]

You can use it and modify it as much as you want. Just don't claim that you wrote it. Saying you edited it is fine though.

[seijuro]

I think the title graphic could/should be improved but it is a good enough start that it is not a pressing matter. More of a mundane polishing off issue. I'm sure this is going to be revised since you said its just a rough draft atm but I'll mention it anyways, which is some of the wording/structure could be improved to smooth out the (quite few for draft work) stumbles in the reading into an even flow.

[spockrock]

about intel chipsets I believe intel did open their drivers, also seeing how accelerated desktops are becoming popular people are now switching to accelerated desktops, I mean the people who see my desktops have expressed wanting the same thing, I think its important to note that ati open drivers on certain cards can do 3d acceleration, the nvidia open drivers cannot. And the intel drivers can also can give you accelerated desktops.

[Tomosaur]

I think you should keep away from saying things like 'ATI support sucks' and stuff like that. It's much more agreeable to people to hear 'ATI cards suffer from poor support'. As much as it's a temptation to just write in a comfortable manner, many people don't really want to READ that kind of relaxed speech. Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't read very well, and you'd do best to avoid it. Written language and oral language are incompatible - the vocabulary is the same, but the structure and flow are completely different.

Aside from that, they're nice articles. Perhaps a few screenshots wouldn't go amiss? I'd also recommend linking the the homepages of the companies you mention. A lot of people don't really know much about the hardware world - they don't actively buy an nVidia card or whatever, it just comes with their computer, just like Windows.

[raul_]

I think you should keep away from saying things like 'ATI support sucks' and stuff like that. It's much more agreeable to people to hear 'ATI cards suffer from poor support'. As much as it's a temptation to just write in a comfortable manner, many people don't really want to READ that kind of relaxed speech. Contrary to popular belief, it doesn't read very well, and you'd do best to avoid it. Written language and oral language are incompatible - the vocabulary is the same, but the structure and flow are completely different.

Aside from that, they're nice articles. Perhaps a few screenshots wouldn't go amiss? I'd also recommend linking the the homepages of the companies you mention. A lot of people don't really know much about the hardware world - they don't actively buy an nVidia card or whatever, it just comes with their computer, just like Windows.

Following this, for the same reason i think you should change this line:



One of the worst printer manufacturers for Linux is Lexmark.


:)

[OldTimeTech]

Yeah instead of Lexmark the worst printer manufacturers....just say they don't support Linux in any easy way for new users of Ubuntu.

I learned the hard way....cause I already had a Lexmark printer before I ever switched to Ubuntu.....convinced hubby to switch me printers, now I've got an epson.

P.S. I like the screen shot idea.

[maniacmusician]

thanks for all the great info. Yeah, I have to clean up my speech a little; this was totally unrevised, I was just typing it out.

I'll be revising the section about ATI; about lexmark, I don't know. It didn't seem like it was going overboard, but I'll definitely keep it in mind, and might end up changing it. I'll also add Links and stuff to educate the user (thanks Tomosaur).

About screenshots; I wasn't planning on including it in this guide as they didnt seem necessary until part two. What do you think I need screenshots of? I don't see many places to put them.

Thanks so much! You're all great. I'm in the middle of a lot of work right now, but I'll update later this evening.

[koenn]

I like the idea - could fill the gap between the quick starts and walktroughs on one side, man pages and howto's on the other. Just be careful you don't start re-writing howto's when you get into more detail about how to (!) do stuff.

I agree with previous comments on language : informal is fine - but some things (vocabulary, phrasing, ...) that work in speech, don't work in writing.

Also I like to see more structure in the text. On the first page you have an introduction and 3 "pitfalls for newly arribved users". I actually had to go back to your page and read all of it again to be able to write the previous sentence. Some titles, paragraphs, etc would help. 2nd page where you sum up hardware is better in this respect.

Since you want to educate your audience, you'll have to be (more) precise in your w<ordeing, here and there. For instance, iIn the 1st paragraph of page 2 you mention "OS's". Stands for Operating Systems, but i believe you mean "distributions". There's a distinction between kernel-operating system-distribution. Even if you're target audience couldn't care less, you still should chose the correct term, or you will confuse those of your readers that see the same words (correctly) used in other guides or articles.

As to your 5 questions, i can't help - all I have to offer is some (sincerely meant to be- constructive) comments.

[maniacmusician]

Also I like to see more structure in the text. On the first page you have an introduction and 3 "pitfalls for newly arribved users". I actually had to go back to your page and read all of it again to be able to write the previous sentence. Some titles, paragraphs, etc would help

I'm pretty sure I never wrote "pitfalls for newly arribved users"; I've done an initial revision of the piece though; not too extensive. If you have any suggestions on better structure, I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks for pointing out that OS vs distributions messup; I absolutely agree that I should use the right vocabulary, so thanks.

I'm sure you can answer some of the five questions; anyone could answer the last one, and #4 is pretty straightforward. But thanks for your input :)

[maniacmusician]

Alright, so I've done an initial revision. It's not very extensive (it's 3 AM! I'm so tired from working and driving) but most of it was eliminating overly casual, "speech-like" language. I didn't purposely leave it in the first time, I just hadn't revised it yet; but I'm glad people picked up on it nonetheless. Now, I have a feeling that it may still be a bit lacking in structure, as I didn't provide too much of that, so any suggestions are welcome, of course.

Some people suggested screenshots; at this point, I can't think of anything that really required screenshots in this article, so please enlighten me. Where and what screenshots would you like to see?

Also, most of my 5 questions are still up for answering:


1. I tried to keep this article short while informative; I undoubtedly missed some things. What do you think I missed that should have been in there?
2. Did you notice any blatant mistakes or fallacies?
3. Can you please point me to some sort of recent compatibility/known-to-work lists of wireless cards, webcams, and printers?
4. On the hardware page (2), I listed four devices that people have trouble with; are there any other devices that give people a lot of trouble, that I forgot to mention?
5. Eventually, this will be a website and pdf book. The banner across the top is something I threw together really quickly using Inkscape. I'm not a great graphics designer as you can probably tell; Is this good enough for me to use? (If someone is bored, alternative submissions are welcome :) )
6. Should I include information from aysiu's Myths about Linux article (sorry if I got the name wrong; off the top of my head) in this article?

my agenda for the next few days:

Keep working on part two (Choosing what to install; mostly about the 3 main DEs used by Ubuntu)
Finish the branching articles that are supposed to be linked to from these
get some more sleep

edit: also, I was thinking about finding aysiu's article about linux myths and incorporating some of that into mine (I did get permission from him to use his articles as a base for mine -- thanks aysiu!). Do you guys think it would be worth it to incorporate that information, or should I cut it off after the hardware? This will be my only chance to include something like that. The rest of this guide gets more technical and actually has to do with installing and getting used to the different DEs. adding this to the list of questions. So do you think I should add the Linux Myths info?

[koenn]

I'm pretty sure I never wrote "pitfalls for newly arribved users"; I've done an initial revision of the piece though; not too extensive. If you have any suggestions on better structure, I'm open to suggestions.
Let me rephrase :
There is structure in the contents (of page 1), namely
- paragraph 1 welcomes the readers and warns against high or wrong expectations.
- then, 3 paragraphs to describe 3 common cases of said 'wrong expectations"
-- 1- Linux is not just Windows without all the malware
-- 2- Linux graphics suck!
-- 3- giving Linux a fair shot - don't compair Linux on old hardware with vista on brand new hardware

[and i summarized that as "pitfalls for ..." in my previous post]

It's just that, imho, the layout of the page doesn't adequately reflect that structure, thus making it hard(er) to read. Compare with a typical Ubuntu document ( http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ) or the OP in e.g. this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315
Think paragraphs, sections, titles, indentation, text formatting ....
[Given that you're stil drafting, maybe some these matters will be resolved in the final layout ? ]

[koenn]

I'm sure you can answer some of the five questions; anyone could answer the last one, and #4 is pretty straightforward.
since you insist ...
While reading I did not notice anything blatantly missing / wrong / left out, given who your target audience is and that you probably don't want to tell them about stuff like the immensely superior command line interface (which , btw, Microsoft is now trying to counter with the 'Power Shell')
--> that covers questions 1, 2, 4

re question 3 - I don't know the location of any hardware compatibility lists so I'd just have to google if i needed one or check of there is alreay something like that in the ubuntu docs.
maybe this : http://www.linux-drivers.org/ ?

re 5- I like the slogan (guides, not walkthroughs), but I'm not too crazy about the font you used for it.

[Tux Aubrey]

A couple of suggestions about the part on wireless cards - the problem relating to chipsets is complicated by the fact that some manufacturers don't even fully disclose which chipsets their cards use and will even change chipsets without changing the model/version number of a card. This is infuriating especially when they don't supply linux drivers (and a very good reason to avoid that manufacturer's products, hey Netgear?).

It is really hard to get (or give) definitive answers about the compatibility of wireless cards for Linux (and I have asked on several different forums). The best I have got is recommendations for built-in (non-PCMCIA) intel laptop (low profile) cards (which is not what I'm looking for).

The other thing is that your text seems to endorse ndiswrapper as a solution to incompatibility. While it has saved my bacon a couple of times, ndiswrapper is far from a real solution. Even putting aside the RMS arguments, ndiswrapper does not always support the full functions of a card - like WEP or WPA security. And it cannot be used at all with some software.

Anyway, I think people should be warned that wireless remains a hit-and-miss affair and that, while most will find part solutions, it is often a matter of trying a card with your distro and then trying the available work-arounds to see if you can get it working. And its hard to do that in a shop without attracting attention.

Sorry for the length of this post/rant - I'm not suggesting you use all the above.

BTW, its looking good.

[pay]

I think that you should definitely add a section about Linux myths. One of the reasons some of my friends don't use Linux is because they say that "Linux is an impossible to use Operating system that only computer engineers use". So if people knew more about what Linux REALLY is then I think that they might be more inclined to testing it out.

[maniacmusician]

Let me rephrase :
There is structure in the contents (of page 1), namely
- paragraph 1 welcomes the readers and warns against high or wrong expectations.
- then, 3 paragraphs to describe 3 common cases of said 'wrong expectations"
-- 1- Linux is not just Windows without all the malware
-- 2- Linux graphics suck!
-- 3- giving Linux a fair shot - don't compair Linux on old hardware with vista on brand new hardware

[and i summarized that as "pitfalls for ..." in my previous post]

It's just that, imho, the layout of the page doesn't adequately reflect that structure, thus making it hard(er) to read. Compare with a typical Ubuntu document ( http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct ) or the OP in e.g. this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315
Think paragraphs, sections, titles, indentation, text formatting ....
[Given that you're stil drafting, maybe some these matters will be resolved in the final layout ? ]

hmm...I understand what you're saying. Does the first page really warrant section headings? It was meant to be in an essay type format. But for the sake of consistency, it's probably best, eh? Thanks a lot, koenn, I appreciate it! Thank you for answering the questions as well. I was planning on including the command line stuff if I were to include parts of aysiu's "myths" article.


A couple of suggestions about the part on wireless cards - the problem relating to chipsets is complicated by the fact that some manufacturers don't even fully disclose which chipsets their cards use and will even change chipsets without changing the model/version number of a card. This is infuriating especially when they don't supply linux drivers (and a very good reason to avoid that manufacturer's products, hey Netgear?).

It is really hard to get (or give) definitive answers about the compatibility of wireless cards for Linux (and I have asked on several different forums). The best I have got is recommendations for built-in (non-PCMCIA) intel laptop (low profile) cards (which is not what I'm looking for).

The other thing is that your text seems to endorse ndiswrapper as a solution to incompatibility. While it has saved my bacon a couple of times, ndiswrapper is far from a real solution. Even putting aside the RMS arguments, ndiswrapper does not always support the full functions of a card - like WEP or WPA security. And it cannot be used at all with some software.

Anyway, I think people should be warned that wireless remains a hit-and-miss affair and that, while most will find part solutions, it is often a matter of trying a card with your distro and then trying the available work-arounds to see if you can get it working. And its hard to do that in a shop without attracting attention.

Sorry for the length of this post/rant - I'm not suggesting you use all the above.

BTW, its looking good.

I'll do a revision of the wireless cards section; what I really need is a compatibility list of wireless cards so that I can have some recommendations in hand and put in a link as well. I should be clearer about ndiswrapper, yeah. I didn't mean to endorse it, just list it as an alternative; but since it appeared that way, I will offer clarification. Don't apologize for the length of anything; I value every word (even if I don't use every word; space issues and wanting to keep it to the point are the reasons), thank you a lot. It's only looking good because of the help of users like you and the others that have posted! I'll have a credits section at the end of each article, for sure.


I think that you should definitely add a section about Linux myths. One of the reasons some of my friends don't use Linux is because they say that "Linux is an impossible to use Operating system that only computer engineers use". So if people knew more about what Linux REALLY is then I think that they might be more inclined to testing it out.

cool, one vote for myths. any others?

PS: I quickly modified the first page to more reflect koenn's suggestions; I'll do the wireless things now.

edit: I edited the part about wireless cards as well.

edit: oops. The article of aysiu's I was talking about was probably "Is Ubuntu for you?". He never wrote one about Linux Myths at all. There was The Linux Desktop Myth, but not the same thing. I have a feeling that I read an article that outlined many of the myths about linux; I can't seem to find it. If someone knows what I'm talking about, please let me know! I could write it all over again from my perspective, but that's a whole lot of extra work that may not result in a better end product. Thanks!

[maniacmusician]

I've revised the first page with a different intro and some section headings. I also added a "Myths" section in the page 2 position. I took the section ideas for that section from aysiu's Is Ubuntu For You? article.

Hopefully this one is close to being done. I still need some compatibility information for the hardware page. I could go and search for it myself and I might have to eventually, but I was hoping someone else could help me out with that since I'm very occupied with writing a bunch of stuff, and work. Thanks!

[raul_]

You might use this link in your article:

http://www.linuxrsp.ru/win-lin-soft/table-eng.html

[maniacmusician]

thanks! :)


Some people suggested screenshots; at this point, I can't think of anything that really required screenshots in this article, so please enlighten me. Where and what screenshots would you like to see?

Also, most of my 5 questions are still up for answering:


1. I tried to keep this article short while informative; I undoubtedly missed some things. What do you think I missed that should have been in there? (mostly resolved, still open to suggestions)
2. Did you notice any blatant mistakes or fallacies?
3. Can you please point me to some sort of recent compatibility/known-to-work lists of wireless cards and webcams?
4. On the hardware page (2), I listed four devices that people have trouble with; are there any other devices that give people a lot of trouble, that I forgot to mention?
5. Eventually, this will be a website and pdf book. The banner across the top is something I threw together really quickly using Inkscape. I'm not a great graphics designer as you can probably tell; Is this good enough for me to use? (If someone is bored, alternative submissions are welcome :) )

[blackened]

For a list of linux compatible printers the best source I've found is http://openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi.
It sorts by manufacturer and level of compatibility.

Dunno if anyone had already mentioned it or not, but there it is.
Well written article by the way, I enjoyed it.

[maniacmusician]

For a list of linux compatible printers the best source I've found is http://openprinting.org/printer_list.cgi.
It sorts by manufacturer and level of compatibility.

Dunno if anyone had already mentioned it or not, but there it is.
Well written article by the way, I enjoyed it.
thank you! someone steps up :)

see post #34 for other stuff that I need answered. Thanks a lot, again. edit: I've added the link to the hardware page, thank you so much! Hope you catch Part II of this series as well.

[blackened]

http://www.linux-wlan.org/docs/wlan_adapters.html.gz has a fairly comprehensive list of compatible wireless cards.

I look forward to reading the next installment.

I'm still searching for the other stuff. Might be a bit.

[maniacmusician]

:) Don't stress yourself, good sir. I appreciate your contributions, you're a savior.

[blackened]

:) Don't stress yourself, good sir. I appreciate your contributions, you're a savior.

No worries, I'm killing time waiting for a bt download to finish so I can sate my anime fixation for today before going to work.

[lyceum]

It is looking very good. Just a few opinions,

1. I think it would be better to go with website over pdf, as you maybe writting a book, but on the web people scan, like it or not. Also, you can then line thinks, like hardware lists and how-to's. You could do this all through your site or link to other sites until you get yours where you want it.

2. You may want to write a quick intro page for those that do not know yet if they WANT to read your book. That could help them see why what you are writing is important. Kind of an intro to the intro.

And by the way, how is your Linux hardware site going? (sorry to get off topic) That you be a great tie-in, or is this all one site?

[maniacmusician]

1. Yes, I agree with you, but I want to do both, just for people's convenience. PDF can make distribution easier as well. Also, it's possible to include links in PDF files. Website is my method of choice as well, but I'm accomodating as many people as possible.

2. Intro page will be the first page of the website. I guess I should make a cover page for documents as well. thanks.

the Dohickey thing is progressing kind of slowly...it involves two people, and collaborating over the internet gets kind of messy because we're both on different schedules. Mine is more unpredictable due to school and work so I'm really the one at fault on that one. Also, I'm having this web design problem where I can't get a form to style properly....that's got me hung up.

It's a totally different, unrelated project though, I wasn't going to have it on the same site. Thanks for the inquiry though, maybe that will motivate me to get over my hump on that one too :) I bet Martin is really frustrated with me :)

[lyceum]

Just a suggestion, you may want to have people help with both. For this people could write articals, then you could edit them. For dohicky, you could ask people to let you know what they have and how they got it to work.

Let me know if you want help with the code. I use HTML, CSS, Perl & Javascript. I would not say I was an expert, but I can see what I can do.

What you are trying to do with both sites are very similar to what I am trying to do with my site. I am trying to get a site together so new users can read reviews of programs to find the one they need easier. If you are interested I can send you a link of my very rough copy and see these (your 2 projects and my one) are maybe we could work together on? My idea is that once the site is up with the basics (and a good search engine) I can keep working on it and if others want to help, all the better.

[maniacmusician]

For dohickey, that is the plan; when people use dohickey, they're supposed to download the client and input all that information into it.

As for my own site, I'd rather just write my own stuff and have everyone help out like they are in this thread. There are already sites that collect cool articles (in fact someone posted about a new one just the other day).

Your site has a pretty cool idea behind it!

[lyceum]

Thanks.

I signed up and sent an e-mail letting you know I would help. Just let me know what you need me to do. It sounds more and more like dohickey and my site (I am calling it White Tree Evolution) will have a lot in common, at least as far as the mechanics of the site, though the content will be different.

[em007a]

As one of the Linux newbies you would like to reach, I would like to make a couple of comments:

This paragraph bothered me:


The reason that nobody notices this with Windows is because most people get it pre-installed on their computer, so they don't have to install any drivers. If you were to install Windows yourself, from scratch, then you may notice how lacking it is. Chances are, that if you have a wireless card, Webcam, or anything fancy, it won't work right away with Windows. You'll have to hunt down the drivers and install them.

I don't believe that this statement is genuine. The items you have described above are things that I have installed personally and found that Windows XP did in fact recognize and configure. (web cam and wireless card). At least to a working state, I may have had to put in the CD that came with
it to gain full functionality, but they did work.

Have you ever watched those commercials for can openers where they make it sound like opening canned goods is a major task? We know better than that, and I for one question the entire product when they try to mis-lead me with absurd statements.

Almost every device you buy has a cd with it that contains the drivers. The process is usually menu driven with adequate instructions. I think you are off to a good start. But if you start making statements that people know are not true, they may not think the guide or your intent are genuine.

I really have no other complaints. Since you are trying to reach "Linux Newbies", I personally think that a down-to-earth tone, with good explanations is what they (me) would like to see. Please don't take for granted that we know the "little" things. We don't. A lot of people know Windows very well, but this is not Windows. In Windows I can click on the .exe file and programs start. After two weeks of working with Linux, I still am not sure how to install programs, drivers, etc. I read a lot and copy/paste a lot without knowing why. That's why your guide sounds like a great thing. I'm waiting for the meaty parts :mrgreen:

I am enjoying my new found world of Ubuntu Linux and I am looking forward to you guide. I am VERY interested to learn all I can. Please consider what I mentioned above. Hopefully you don't take offense as none is meant

[raul_]

The items you have described above are things that I have installed personally and found that Windows XP did in fact recognize and configure. (web cam and wireless card). At least to a working state, I may have had to put in the CD that came with
it to gain full functionality, but they did work.


If you had to put the cd in, then it didn't recognize.

It's a little known fact, but Linux actually recognizes more hardware natively (ie, withouth having to install drivers manually) than any other OS

[aysiu]

But em007a has a point: it almost doesn't matter that Windows doesn't recognize external devices, since almost all will come with a CD full of the drivers needed.

[maniacmusician]

I dont take offense at all. I was just speaking from experience. My card and web cam have never been picked up by a fresh installation of windows and its always a pain to hunt down those driver CDs and reinstall everything. I didn't say this happened to everyone, just the minority; I've heard a lot of people complain about it, which is why I put it in there. I thought it was a pretty common occurence (70% at least). edit: also, yes, you got your drivers off a CD. You can't include that argument in Linux because manufacturers aren't providing drivers. In reality, what I say is true. A native Windows installation supports far less hardware than Linux does.

I'll try to think of a more mild way to say it, but it's not the highest thing on my to-do list. I am, as you said, writing the "meaty parts". The next article might not be for you either, though; it educates about the different DEs, and which might be best for the reader. With screenshots and whatnot. Then after that is one about installation. And then after that is one about customization (that will be a looooong guide) and I may find that I have to write extra ones in between.

As the author, I'd like to know; what would you like to see in the meaty parts? anything in particular that you think would be super helpful? How to install programs and stuff will be included in the "Installing Ubuntu" guide.

[maniacmusician]

If you had to put the cd in, then it didn't recognize.

It's a little known fact, but Linux actually recognizes more hardware natively (ie, withouth having to install drivers manually) than any other OS


But em007a has a point: it almost doesn't matter that Windows doesn't recognize external devices, since almost all will come with a CD full of the drivers needed.

you're both right of course; But I don't think its fair to Ubuntu to include the CD approach. We don't even have that chance.

Taking the built-in approach is also more indicative of the open source philsophy

[aysiu]

you're both right of course; But I don't think its fair to Ubuntu to include the CD approach. We don't even have that chance.

Taking the built-in approach is also more indicative of the open source philsophy
Of course, but a Windows installation is only a pain if you have lost the driver CDs that came with the hardware. That's happened to me in the past, and it's terrible. But in most cases, the CDs should be readily available... at least when you buy the hardware.

[em007a]

what would you like to see in the meaty parts? anything in particular that you think would be super helpful? How to install programs and stuff will be included in the "Installing Ubuntu" guide.

Hmm, since I'm very new at this, I guess I'm looking forward to learning the basics.


What is root? (I know I'm using "sudo" to run certain commands, but I really don't know why.
I immediately wanted to get new themes. I found a ton on the popular gnome site, but they wouldn't install. I am starting to understand now, that there are different programs(?) to run the different themes. (GTK, Metacity, Beryl, Compiz). There may be some good guides for them, but I haven't found them yet.
Installing drivers and programs obtained from the web vs automatix, synaptic, etc.
A Windows user has no idea where to start. I don't ask often because I don't want to be one of the people you mentioned in your original post. I don't want to be told how, as much as I want to understand why. These forums are turning out to be the single best resource I have found. :D

[maniacmusician]

Of course, but a Windows installation is only a pain if you have lost the driver CDs that came with the hardware. That's happened to me in the past, and it's terrible. But in most cases, the CDs should be readily available... at least when you buy the hardware.
is that something I should take into consideration for the guide? should I compare XP + CDs to just plain Linux? That seems like stacking the odds in XP's favors. or should I point out that XP is functional with CDs and make it another point of hardware manufacturers not supporting Linux?

[maniacmusician]

Hmm, since I'm very new at this, I guess I'm looking forward to learning the basics.


What is root? (I know I'm using "sudo" to run certain commands, but I really don't know why.
I immediately wanted to get new themes. I found a ton on the popular gnome site, but they wouldn't install. I am starting to understand now, that there are different programs(?) to run the different themes. (GTK, Metacity, Beryl, Compiz). There may be some good guides for them, but I haven't found them yet.
Installing drivers and programs obtained from the web vs automatix, synaptic, etc.
A Windows user has no idea where to start. I don't ask often because I don't want to be one of the people you mentioned in your original post. I don't want to be told how, as much as I want to understand why. These forums are turning out to be the single best resource I have found. :D
Thanks man, I will definitely include all that, its all very important to understand. I'll try to get that out as soon as possible, but time constraints and all...I do have to work and go to school and everything. If I were getting paid for this... :)

I'll probably have the first drafts of parts II and III up in the cafe within the week and that information should be in there.

[em007a]

Take your time :D

I'm waiting, but I would rather have accuracy (as best you or anyone else can).

[aysiu]

should I point out that XP is functional with CDs and make it another point of hardware manufacturers not supporting Linux? Yes, this one.

[maniacmusician]

Yes, this one.
do you think the rest of it is okay? any tips? suggestions? changes? would appreciate your input.

[pay]

In the meaty parts I think that you should explain where all the configuration files are and how to properly edit them.

[aysiu]

do you think the rest of it is okay? any tips? suggestions? changes? would appreciate your input.
I like it. Walkthroughs are good and have their place, but education is also important. I particularly like how you don't oversell Linux or make it sound like something magical. It takes work, and you acknowledge that early on.

A few nitpicks, though:
But what can you expect when you're trying to run Linux on a 300MHz PC with 64MB of RAM? Windows would not even run on that at all. Well, actually Windows can, but Windows XP would struggle and Vista wouldn't run at all. You may want to mention, though, that you can have modern software running on that old computer (using a minimalist window manager) using Linux, but if you want Windows to be useful, you'd need Windows 95 or Windows 3.1 in order to be useful on those specs, and a lot of modern Windows programs require 2000 or XP.
I'll let you in on a secret; you don't have to use the command line in Linux; most things don't require it. Hm. I agree with the general idea--being that very few tasks require the command-line, but if the person reading your article is the one installing and configuring Linux, too, the likelihood she won't at some point have to use the command-line is pretty low, and she should know that ahead of time.

You may also want to mention that the command-line is mentioned and recommended a lot because it's the best way to give online support (on the forums, for example).
Use Microsoft Office? You can use OpenOffice or KOffice on Linux. Even though this is only an initial overview, it does bear mentioning that for complicated Word documents (Macros, commenting, etc.), OpenOffice and KOffice do not necessarily offer satisfactory compatibility.
I agree, it's great to have free stuff; but if that's your main motivation for using Linux, you're probably not in the right place. This would be a great place to mention that there are many open source Windows programs, and if a full migration isn't the best thing right now, a new user may just want to start loading up Windows with Notepad++, Firefox, Thunderbird, GIMP, OpenOffice, FileZilla, etc.

http://osswin.sourceforge.net/
http://www.opensourcewindows.org/
That's it. You've hopefully read all of that, and are still here. At this point, you're aware that there's a learning curve to Linux when migrating from Windows, and that you might have trouble with some pieces of hardware. You're aware of the pros and cons of using Linux. If you still want to try it out, to free yourself from Microsoft's grip, and to run a fast, efficient OS, then that's great. And to be honest, as long as you give it a fair try, it's not hard at all (it just takes time), and you will probably like it. But if you come in with preconveived notions about it, then you mostly will not succeed in your endeavors. And hey, Linux may not fit your needs (*Click here for my article on things lacking in Linux), as there are still some things it does not have. For those things, it's nice to still keep around a Windows partition so that you can access those programs. But as time goes on, you may find yourself spending more and more time in Linux instead of Windows ;) It'd be great if you could end with some practical next steps and some good links. After you've educated people, they'll still need tutorials.

Overall, I have to say I like the general approach and even-handedness of the thing. It looks like a long read but reads rather quickly.

P.S. You're welcome to borrow parts from or link to Is Ubuntu for You? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315), if you find it at all useful.

[maniacmusician]

thanks for that long review; I actually did steal a bit from Is Ubuntu For You; the topics for the myths page were pretty much all taken from there.

As for next steps, I don't know if you noticed, but this is just Part I. I'm writing a full-on guide. The next part will educate about DEs, and the 3 most popular ones right now, and it'll let them pick which they want to start with. After that will be one that walks them through the various methods of installation (live CD vs text install, dual-booting, etc). After that, I'll offer configuration tips on each of the DEs that I document. So this will be pretty lengthy and may end up taking a few months. After that, I'll branch out to writing about more specific things.

Thanks for all your suggestions, I'll see what I can do about them tomorrow. I'm glad you liked it for the most part...I seem to have deviated form this style in Part II so far, because it's getting more technical...I don't want that necessarily, so I'll have to try and soften that up.

Thanks for the insight!

[Dokatz]

thanks for that long review; I actually did steal a bit from Is Ubuntu For You; the topics for the myths page were pretty much all taken from there.

As for next steps, I don't know if you noticed, but this is just Part I. I'm writing a full-on guide. The next part will educate about DEs, and the 3 most popular ones right now, and it'll let them pick which they want to start with. After that will be one that walks them through the various methods of installation (live CD vs text install, dual-booting, etc). After that, I'll offer configuration tips on each of the DEs that I document. So this will be pretty lengthy and may end up taking a few months. After that, I'll branch out to writing about more specific things.

Thanks for all your suggestions, I'll see what I can do about them tomorrow. I'm glad you liked it for the most part...I seem to have deviated form this style in Part II so far, because it's getting more technical...I don't want that necessarily, so I'll have to try and soften that up.

Thanks for the insight!

You're a saint! I could kiss you. Keep up the good work man, I'm a moron but if theres something menial I could help you with just let me know. It looks like a promising start and the future link contents of my AIM Profile.

1. I tried to keep this article short while informative; I undoubtedly missed some things. What do you think I missed that should have been in there? (mostly resolved, still open to suggestions)
It seems verbose, But easy to follow. It's a hard balance, Do you want to be a frigging instruction manual or a novel? Be weary.

2. Did you notice any blatant mistakes or fallacies?

Not on first glance. I'll let you know.

3. Can you please point me to some sort of recent compatibility/known-to-work lists of wireless cards and webcams?

I've been searching for one myself without much luck. I've never gotten a WiFi card working myself (Since I never tried that hard, I'm wired baby)

4. On the hardware page (2), I listed four devices that people have trouble with; are there any other devices that give people a lot of trouble, that I forgot to mention?

High end sound cards...

5. Eventually, this will be a website and pdf book. The banner across the top is something I threw together really quickly using Inkscape. I'm not a great graphics designer as you can probably tell; Is this good enough for me to use? (If someone is bored, alternative submissions are welcome)
It's ugly, To be honest. But I'm not an artist either so I can't really talk...I don't like the brain so much...

[maniacmusician]

thanks for the anwsers. The best way to help out is by continuing to read the stuff I put out and offering feedback on it. If there's something specific you can help with, get in touch with me and we can work something out :)

a number of people have said that the banner isn't too great...so at this point, I'll officially put out that I'm open to submissions. If you got something for me, bring it on. I'd like to keep the title of the site and the slogan as well, but the actual graphics of it; anything that looks good, I'm up for.

[grins] man, good feedback just makes me want to work overtime on this stuff.

[tries to focus on school work instead] haha. man. I love ubuntu.

[Dokatz]

Ubuntu...
When truely being part of your OS, Becomes an ADDICTION.

[maniacmusician]

I'm supposed to be writing an anaytical essay..."what happens when a person has an experience that contradicts his/her prior knowledge or understanding of the truth?" have to answer that in relation to certain characters...Toto from Cinema Paradiso, Adele from Good&Bad, and Cleofilas from Woman Hollering Creek.

It's an easy essay. But so boring. I can't focus at all.

Also have to do one on Animal Dreams...equally mind numbing.

I'm going to fail this class out of sheer boredom.

[Dokatz]

What classes are you taking <_<

[maniacmusician]

Well this is just a standard English course. I'm more interested in Psychology and related subjects; those I do fine in. I love English and writing, but this can hardly be called that...

[_duncan_]

...

[maniacmusician]

a possible addition to hardware newbies have a lot of trouble with during migration is dial-up modem.

Depending on how detailed you plan to go, maybe break up the discussion into the 2 main types: hardware and software modems.

The 2nd link on my signature contains a lot of info regarding the subject.
hmm I didnt realize dial up modems were troublesome.

I don't really know anything about them so I cant write about them myselves. if you want you can do a quick writeup on why they're troublesome and what to do about it and I'll use that as a resource to put something in there...I'm not going to be very specific. It'll end up in the same format as the others; say why its troublesome, if there's a couple of really bad manufacturers that shouldnt even be considered, and if there is usually a workaround or not. Then, in the links section below, I would include links to the wiki and website that you have in your sig.

If you'd prefer, I'll look into it myself when I have more time (ie thursday or friday); but I have no personal experience in the matter.

that's suprising for me though, I would think that there'd be plenty of open standards for somethign like dial-up modems which have been around for a while.

[_duncan_]

...

[maniacmusician]

wow. yes, i agree its pretty important, and I want it in there.

You don't have to do a complete write up. Just the basic information I asked for is fine, and I can do the actual writing; that part is easier for me than rummaging for info :)

[steven8]

I don't know about dial-up modems, but usb cable modems are downright impossible if they are not working ootb.

[_duncan_]

...

[lyceum]

I don't know about dial-up modems, but usb cable modems are downright impossible if they are not working ootb.

I found an easy fix for that, go to a used store and pick one up for 5-10 $. I have not bought on that did not work just as good as a new one, or that didn't work ootb.

[matchstich]

will your guide show us how to install the dohicky thingy?
i tried following the instructions on the site but no joy so far.

[maniacmusician]

this is really the wrong thread, but Dohickey does not need installing. You can just run the script. I'm pretty sure (this is from memory) that to run it you would just use ./dohickey.

I also believe that the version on the site is outdated (again, this is from memory, I'm not sure) since the developer is just one person, it's hard for him to keep up with everything. The latest version will always be on the sourceforge download page; http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=177020

This guide is to ease the transition for users switching to linux, and to educate them. I'm still writing the guide, but the work is going slow since I'm really busy as well.

[sandman55]

This is a great project.
You have asked for feed back.
About the cover I like the brain but with the colours I think the light brown of the Feisty logon screen could replace the white background with the Ubuntu wheel in the centre and the banner at the top being a slightly darker brown but grading to lighter as you have it with the blue.

When you get to the terminal - as a new user I found script like

sudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf
confusing. I thought when I first saw gedit it meant "get it" but one thread explained that it was a name for a text editor like note pad. I understood more about what the folders names meant when I had a browse through the file browser and saw the scripts that people were putting up on the forum were a path to a file and names like etc,X11 and others were the names of folders. And on the same thread where I was shown how to edit my xorg.conf it also showed me how to get out of trouble with sudo nano in a console when it all went wrong as it did. This helped me with my understanding when I saw the same file in two different editors.
When someone on the forum explained about using man in a terminal was also a big help to me.

I'm sure you have all this in mind I just thought you might be interested to hear from a new user about some of my surprises. I am looking forward to reading more chapters.

[karellen]

congrats! you have a lot of patience, man...:)

[maniacmusician]

ah, sorry guys, I should've made it clearer that you were supposed to post in the other thread ( http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=448312 ) about Chapter 2. The version linked to from this thread is a preliminary one and it's not as finished as the one from the new thread. Sorry about the confusion.

@sandman: Yes I certainly will explain that in detail. I just haven't gotten that far yet. Chapter 1: Evaluating your Decision, Chapter 2: Choosing what you want, Chapter 3: Download and Installation, Chapter 4: Taming the Command Line, and there will be more chapters after that as well. I just finished Chapter 2 yesterday.

Would a mod please lock this thread so as to prevent further confusion?

[godd4242]

This is a great project.
You have asked for feed back.
About the cover I like the brain but with the colours I think the light brown of the Feisty logon screen could replace the white background with the Ubuntu wheel in the centre and the banner at the top being a slightly darker brown but grading to lighter as you have it with the blue.



On the topic of covers...

What about an eye with the Ubuntu logo molded into/onto it?

If I can I'll try and make one later tonight, (much later, like 2 am EST) but I think it might explain it better.

[godd4242]

done.

Speaking to that I saw an article on digg (I can't find it again ;_;) that said ATi said they were "dedicated to better compatibility to open source"

Might just be bull, but you never know.

I'll try and find that article and see if it mentioned any time tables or anything.

[maniacmusician]

On the topic of covers...

What about an eye with the Ubuntu logo molded into/onto it?

If I can I'll try and make one later tonight, (much later, like 2 am EST) but I think it might explain it better.
I'm welcome to any suggestions for the cover. If I get multiple ones, I'll likely put up a poll and choose whichever one wins. Also, from now on, please post in the new thread for this http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=448312 . This thread will be momentarily closed (read my post directly above yours for more info)


Speaking to that I saw an article on digg (I can't find it again ;_;) that said ATi said they were "dedicated to better compatibility to open source"

Might just be bull, but you never know.

I'll try and find that article and see if it mentioned any time tables or anything.

There's no time tables. The head honcho guy just said "We're dedicated to providing open source drivers for ATI cards". I think it's hogwash, but I'll be very happy if this happens. And when it does, I will certainly change that section of chapter 1 to reflect the change.

[taurus]

Thread closed as OP requested.