Arrogance amongst certain Linux users [Archive]

aysiu

October 26th, 2006, 09:39 PM

Toxicity999

October 26th, 2006, 09:40 PM

That's an elitist philosophy that is found way more commonly other places, here atleats most people are helpful 5 helpful for every not atleast. Of course as we obtain a larger user base these views are skewed but I never... well rarely see a post with only responses like that. I do agree though that those who actually talk like that need to rethink their position. If you're not giving or getting help, and you're complacent wit hyour OS don't moleste the forums with useless slaps in the face to people new to the OS. My personal View anyway.

Henry Rayker

October 26th, 2006, 09:48 PM

I agree with aysiu's second point. Honestly, if you can't read a guide to burn an ISO, odds are you won't stick around to ask questions about how to get this or that to work; you're not going to search to find the answers as to why your wireless won't work or why your screen resolution is smashed.

I think he could have phrased it as, "if you can't figure out how to burn an ISO, you should probably wait before trying to set up an operating system"...it's not just Linux, but any OS (I've never set up an Apple OS, so maybe not those...don't know what goes into it).

That's equivalent to selling ammunition to someone who doesn't even know what a gun license is...you're just asking for trouble.

aysiu

October 26th, 2006, 09:51 PM

Yes, the phrasing could be better, but there's still truth in there.

Toxicity999

October 26th, 2006, 09:51 PM

I think you both kind of have a point, to be honest.

On the one hand, elitism of any kind ("Silly new user, how dare you try to learn Linux when you can't even burn an ISO? Ha ha ha!") is a bad attitude.

On the other hand, you're lying to yourself if you imagine you can install and configure a Linux distro if you can't even figure out (through a Google search or whatnot) how to burn an ISO.

It's just an indicator that you're going to run into a lot of trouble later. You think things are tough learning how to burn an ISO? Well, just wait until you try to configure your X server or use ndiswrapper to get your wireless working.

You can view it as elitism or someone can express it as elitism if she wants to, but it's also the plain truth: if you can't figure out how to burn an ISO, your only hope in the world of Linux is to have a Linux expert friend who will install and configure it for you, or to buy Linux preinstalled from a vendor like System76 (http://www.system76.com).

Some of the "how to burn an ISO" guides I've found to be rather cryptic, so I created this one that I think any dummy can make sense of:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso

I totally aggree with your secondary position, though if someone were to warn something more like, "Well in all honesty if you can't figure out how to burn an ISO as an actual image compared to a file you may run into trouble later on but please refer to xyzabc.com/fluffypeanutbutter to learn how to do so on a windows system of if you have another linux system around you can do so with xyz."

More helpful than "OMFG You dare query the Penguin Overlord? I SMITE THEE!"

A point to both sides but again we all learned how to burn an ISO at some point (most of us probably on out own granted.) But that slow webbing of knowledge leading us to mastery of the terminal and DE could presumabley be learned quickly, even after setbacks like these. Who knows.

Edit: You beat me to it you crazy kitty! (just playing)

aysiu

October 26th, 2006, 09:58 PM

It ultimately boils down to "Are you willing to roll up your sleeves?"

You don't have to burn an ISO, especially if you buy from System76 or order a pre-pressed CD from ShipIt. Learning to burn an ISO is just learning one task. But you must be willing to learn in general (if not to burn an ISO, at least other tasks).

If you think, "Ah, learning to burn an ISO is too much trouble," well then anything else you'd have to do to install a new operating system will be too much trouble.

I'm just going to keep repeating myself... it's fun.

BoomStiX

October 26th, 2006, 10:00 PM

Someone posted this, and I'm greatly upset:

"#2: This one isn't too great either, because if people don't know how to burn an iso, they shouldn't be trying to learn linux"

listen hot shot, i bet someone had to teach you how to turn on a computer.

the linux community shouldn't be like this at all. now i know that most of you are tip top, and love to help people, but not everyone is.

if anything is going to stop adoption, it's the wrong vibe from the users. i feel like i'm in a mac forum, where if you ask for advice you get an answer, then a little joke about how much feature XYZ sucks in windows.

](*,)

Hehe, well, first off, i've been using computers for about 15 years now. Second, just because I said if someone doesn't know how to burn an iso and that they shouldn't be using linux because of it, doesn't mean I don't like/try to help people.

Third, don't try getting everyone all riled up because of something that was misinterpreted in your head. Here let me explain it top to bottom for you real quick, first, if you don't know the basic fundamentals to a computer, which burning a iso is kind of one of them, its becoming much more common nowdays to burn isos, you shouldn't try moving forward in the computer world until you get your basic computer fundamentals straightened out. Its just a fact dude.

So my suggestion to you, keep it down ;) else threads I think are gonna start getting locked. Theres no need to start spilling blood over crap like this.

Old Pink

October 26th, 2006, 10:10 PM

BoomStiX

October 26th, 2006, 10:12 PM

1. Why is this in Feisty Fawn discussion?
2. Why does this deserve it's own thread? Why not just either reply to the thread in which that was said, or PM the person responsible.
3. You may be right, but don't blame the community for one person's opinion.

To be honest with you, I have NO idea how this became a Feisty Fawn thread, it doesn't even belong here does it? I was looking through here because i've been posting in this section of the forums and saw this thread, looked and sure enough it was one of my quotes I have said, and it was just done with so much misinterpretation that it needed to be cleared up. But yeah, this doesn't belong here, we should get this thread moved or deleted.

aysiu

October 26th, 2006, 10:14 PM

I've moved this to the Cafe. If it gets out of hand, it'll be moved to the Backyard... or Closed.

Coelocanth

October 26th, 2006, 10:15 PM

I agree with Aysiu as well. Up until 2 to 3 years ago, all I knew about computers was how to turn one on. However, several viruses and trips to the local computer guy (and some significant dollar investment) and I got pissed off enough to start educating myself a bit more on security (this was for Windows). Now, at least I'm competent and confident enough to get XP installed, secured, and tweaked to my satisfaction - but I still don't know a whole lot about it. Just your perhaps-slightly-above-average joe, I guess. Ironically, I've now found Linux (and trying to learn it) and have pretty much abandoned Windows.

Anyway, time for a new comuter last January, and I decided to build my own. Didn't know a thing about it, but I thought "Why am I going to pay 50% to 100% more for a comuter system with a bunch of crap on it that I don't want, and components that I won't be satisfied with?" Did some research, bought the parts, and built it myself. Not bad for a guy in his 40s who never owned a computer until 6 years ago, I think.

What's the point of all this? Well, 3 years ago, I was that guy that didn't know how to burn an ISO, and if I'd tried to switch to Linux at that time, it would have been a disaster (heh, it remains to be seen how it's going to work out now... j/k). If I hadn't taken the initiative to learn some things through a little research and googling, I'd still be that 'joe dummy' who regularly has to take his machine to someone to get rid of all the bloat, spyware, and viruses. So, Aysiu's right: if a person doesn't have enough initiative to do a little research to find out some of the simple things, then Linux isn't for them.

That being said, Toxicity makes an excellent point about phrasing the reply to someone asking a question. (Although the image of the Smiting Penguin Overlord does have a certain flair to it).

*edit* Crap, I type slow...

Old Pink

October 26th, 2006, 10:18 PM

Seriously, for the effort it takes to type "How to burn an iso" into Google, the statement was correct, although maybe worded badly.

It's not that controversial!

patrickfromspain

October 26th, 2006, 10:21 PM

My opinion is that before entering the linux world, anyone should learn some basic computer skills. How to burn an iso, learn how to surf the web (a google search can be frustrating if you don't know what to search for), knowing some basic msdos commands (dir, copy, cd, cd.., etc).

It doesn't make sense that somebody who hasn't even been able to burn and iso image wants to set up a fully working ubuntu system. I'm sure in a google search you could find that in less than 2 minutes. But if you don't even know where to search... good luck, my friend.

Also, lots from those are the ones that afterwards claim "hey, linux is so stupid. I wasn' even able to install it".

Anyway, there's no need to be rude and undfriendly. We can explain any user how to burn an ISO image, maybe direct him to a good install guide, a basic ubuntu guide or whatever. You can always say hime that he probably isn't skilled enough to install/use ubuntu, but always in a polite way.

aysiu

October 26th, 2006, 10:23 PM

The first five results for The "how to burn an ISO" Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=how+to+burn+an+iso&btnG=Google+Search):
How to successfully burn or write an ISO-image to CD or DVD (http://iso.snoekonline.com/iso.htm)
How to burn a ISO Image using NERO (http://www.wizardskeep.org/mainhall/tutor/neroiso.html)
How to burn a ISO Image using Adaptec Easy CD Creator (http://www.wizardskeep.org/mainhall/tutor/cdcriso/cdcrtiso.html)
Magic ISO Maker Introduction (http://www.magiciso.com/)
How can I write ISO files to CD? (http://www.petri.co.il/how_to_write_iso_files_to_cd.htm)

Almost all have screenshots.

There's now a link on the Ubuntu download page, too:
Burning the ISO

Ubuntu is distributed as an "ISO", which is a type of disk image. To learn how to burn this onto a cd, please see How to Burn an ISO (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BurningIsoHowto) on the Ubuntu wiki.

Old Pink

October 26th, 2006, 10:27 PM

Precisely, it's stupidly easy to learn how to burn an iso in Google.

Even the first result for "iso file" is How to Write ISO Files to CD (http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.petri.co.il%2Fhow_to_write_is o_files_to_cd.htm&ei=4CdBRaObOpD0-gLb__2SCg&sig=__kWfYCxqbIj7b0PnDTaXXpa5titQ=&sig2=PT1XOfjaal7eFFo6q7jijg) - perfect for someone who doesn't even know they're supposed to "burn" anything.

If people just put in some effort, we wouldn't have this sort of outrage when someone strikes out at someone who doesn't search before they post.

</rant>

Charles Hand

October 26th, 2006, 10:52 PM

marcus2004

October 26th, 2006, 11:12 PM

Coelocanth I think what you wrote is exactly right and it reminds me of how I learnt 10 years ago. Now I do tech support. :)

sloggerkhan

October 26th, 2006, 11:29 PM

I think not being able to figure out how to burn an ISO on your own is pretty lame.

But I sorta had the impression that the point of Ubuntu was that eventually you wouldn't have to go into the command line and custom config your x setup and such things. It's not hard but it's something you can forget about with average users, and isn't the whole point of Ubuntu to bring free Open Source OS (OSOS? lol) to the "masses"? I guess my point is that if you are assuming the average user will custom setup a bunch of stuff from the command line, it seems a little misguided and counter productive.

Brunellus

October 26th, 2006, 11:34 PM

Doesn't sound like "I am what I am because of who we *all* are".

Sounds like "I am what I am because of who those *who think like me* are"

If somebody needs help googling, I'd just help them google.
Don't be a menace to ubuntu while drinking your juice n da hood.

This is Linux for Human Beings, not Linux for Saints.

Old Pink

October 27th, 2006, 12:06 AM

EDIT:- I'm not going to argue this point any further, sorry.

funkadelic

October 27th, 2006, 03:10 AM

aysiu

October 27th, 2006, 03:34 AM

Some interesting points...

Here's a question to ponder: is Linux (any distro) a good choice for a computer novice? I would guess that the vast majority of us started with either Windows or Mac OS and switched to Linux much later.

Is it practical for someone to try to learn computer basics on Linux? Could there be advantages to starting with Linux as your first OS?
There's a huge difference between using a Linux distro and downloading, burning, installing and configuring a Linux distro.

Any computer novice can do the former (regardless of which distribution it is); very few can or desire to do the latter.

deepwave

October 27th, 2006, 03:37 AM

Some interesting points...

Here's a question to ponder: is Linux (any distro) a good choice for a computer novice? I would guess that the vast majority of us started with either Windows or Mac OS and switched to Linux much later.

Is it practical for someone to try to learn computer basics on Linux? Could there be advantages to starting with Linux as your first OS?

Depends what do you mean by learn computer basics. Learning computer basics like turning on and off a computer? Learning how to browse the web or use a word document? All of those can be taught with any modern, desktop capable OS.

Burning an ISO and partitioning a harddrive ARE not basics in any sense of the term. I think instead of fuming at a person having a problem with doing those things: refer them to a website link or their local Linux "guru". Or simply just not respond.

aysiu

October 27th, 2006, 03:49 AM

DI think instead of fuming at a person having a problem with doing those things: refer them to a website link or their local Linux "guru". Or simply just not respond. Has there been... "fuming"? Maybe I missed it.

The point most people seem to agree with is that if you're unable to figure out (either through a Google search or posting a question on the forums) how to burn an ISO, it's highly unlikely you'll have any success installing and configuring a Linux distro by yourself.

This isn't what people are espousing:

A: Hi. I'm new to the whole Linux scene. Can someone tell me what to do with an ISO? I tried extracting it with WinRar, but I don't know what to do with the files inside. When I burned them to a CD, the CD wouldn't boot.

B: You f'in idiot. You can't even burn an ISO correctly. You're clearly not as competent as we Linux veterans. Go away.

This is what people are saying:

A: I'm pretty confident I can get everything working in Linux, but I have spent five days trying to figure out how to burn an ISO properly, and I can't.

B: Five days? What have you done already?

A: I keep burning it over and over again, and none of my CDs will boot properly.

B: Have you done a Google search for how to burn an ISO?

A: No, but why is it so difficult?

B: It's not. Here's a link (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso) for how to burn one.

A: I don't want a link. I shouldn't have to learn this stuff. I just want to install Linux.

B: Good luck installing Linux if you're not even willing to learn how to do anything.

maniacmusician

October 27th, 2006, 03:50 AM

i dont advocate fuming at people having problems with those things (i'm sure other smart users don't either), but the point was, that if you can't master burning an ISO, you probably don't have enough skill to install an OS (any OS, not just linux). People like that should get someone more knowledgable to set it up for them, or walk them through the process.

If, however, you get referred to a link for how to burn an ISO, and you do it correctly; bravo! your next step would be to read up on how to do a successful linux installation, and after reading and grasping it, attempt it like you did for the ISO. there's plenty of guides to installing Ubuntu.

zapcojake

October 27th, 2006, 06:06 AM

I would like to suggest that maybe a quick howto on burning iso's with the more popular Windows programs be included on the install cd. Isn't there already some small Windows programs included on the install cd? I agree that some computer saviness would be handy but EVERYBODY has to start somewhere. I helped my 10 year old neighbor install Ubuntu 2 weeks ago and now he is well on his way to being a full on Linux convert. There are people here that are very patient and very willing to help and then there are some who are not as patient. I belive whats best for all of us and for Ubuntu is that it try to suit all its users as best as possible. If the newbs need a little help lets help them, the only stupid question is one that goes unasked.

aysiu

October 27th, 2006, 06:10 AM

I would like to suggest that maybe a quick howto on burning iso's with the more popular Windows programs be included on the install cd.If the person can't burn the ISO properly, how would she access the HowTo off the install CD?

zapcojake

October 27th, 2006, 06:18 AM

Good point, I should probably post on a little more sleep. I don't have Windows anymore but If I remember you can click on an archive file and Winrar will open it and let you view and extract part of its contents. Or maybe they could just post a link on the download page that would show you quick howto. I tell anybody who will listen about Linux, the more users there are the more demand for quality software there is and that is something we all benefit from. We should do all we can to bring people in.

bobbybobington

October 27th, 2006, 06:32 AM

NOOB: I want to install ubuntu, but I dont want to do this iso stuff
GURU: Well you can just get a shipit cd, its free.
NOOB: Saweeet!!!

End of conversation.

"Simple" things such as a install for us are no sweat (ubuntu is really easy), but all ways remember your first install whenever talking to noobs. Some people just can't handle the change themselves. If they are your family or friend they can be helped. Others have different expectations. research, or an open mind can help. Then there are those who discover it isn't right for them and doesn't fit their needs, you can only work so that someday it will.Some people however can't or more often refuse to change. For all of these people you can only do so much to help them, and criticizing them (when or not its the truth) really doesn't help. You can only let them go, wish them good luck, and hopefully they will give it another go later.

aysiu

October 27th, 2006, 06:34 AM

It's not that difficult for me to remember my first install. I've been using Ubuntu only a year and a half.

I wasn't born knowing how to burn an ISO. I did a Google search.

yabbadabbadont

October 27th, 2006, 06:39 AM

Real men did their first Linux install from dozens of floppies... ;)

aysiu

October 27th, 2006, 06:45 AM

Real men did their first Linux install from dozens of floppies... ;)
Exactly.

It's not rocket science to learn how to burn an ISO.

I'm not an elitist. I'm not a programmer. I've never dared try to install Gentoo, Slackware, or Linux from Scratch. I don't build my own computers or buy my own parts. I can't figure out Vim, but I can figure out an ISO.

If anyone's staking any kind elite status on being able to burn an ISO, she needs some perspective.

steven8

October 27th, 2006, 06:48 AM

I wasn't born knowing how to burn an ISO. I did a Google search.

I did the Google Search and everyone assumes you are using Nero. I have Roxio. So. . .I came back to my iso image file and noticed "Hey! It's icon looks like it may already be supported by Roxio.", so I right-clicked on it. Sure enough, the top option was 'Record To CD'. I popped in a blank CD-R and right-clicked again. Burned it correctly with no problem.

I have a saying, "When in doubt. . .right-click." :-)

Alex_Perry

October 27th, 2006, 06:59 AM

Someone posted this, and I'm greatly upset:

"#2: This one isn't too great either, because if people don't know how to burn an iso, they shouldn't be trying to learn linux"

listen hot shot, i bet someone had to teach you how to turn on a computer.

the linux community shouldn't be like this at all. now i know that most of you are tip top, and love to help people, but not everyone is.

if anything is going to stop adoption, it's the wrong vibe from the users. i feel like i'm in a mac forum, where if you ask for advice you get an answer, then a little joke about how much feature XYZ sucks in windows.

](*,)

Without reading the whole thread here, I agree with what you said. I noticed the thread you're talking about over in the Feisty Fawn dev area, and gave up reading any other responses after that.

I was going to say something, but just figured there's no reason to start an e-war. I'm not going to lose sleep over what people think of what I have to say, anyway.

Nonetheless, here's my opinion. If I was trying to convince someone to switch to Ubuntu, but didn't have the time to invest in burning the cd for them/getting it up and running/whatever, what's wrong with making that easier for them?

I'm sure of the people I have already switched, none of them know what an ISO is. If they were in the situation of having to download it themself, they wouldn't invest the time to learn how to burn the install CD. If they have to research how to burn the CD, what's to say Ubuntu is any easier to use once installed?

Well, that's just my opinion on the matter. I wasn't going to say anything, but your post inspired me to say something. At least I'm not the only one who saw the ignorance.

IYY

October 27th, 2006, 07:58 AM

"#2: This one isn't too great either, because if people don't know how to burn an iso, they shouldn't be trying to learn linux"

You may not like it, but this statement may be true. Of course, the rules of the game change if you have a friend or family member helping you throughout your Linux experience, in which case even ``grandma'' can use Linux. However, we see that most users who do not know how to burn an ISO are just not ready to learn Linux. Not because they are less capable or less intelligent, but because they probably aren't as interested/passionate in technology.

These users are not being elitists or snobs, they just don't want the newcomer to be disappointed and post a `Linux is not ready for the desktop' thread, leave the community, be scared of Linux for the next 50 years and warn everyone else against this unfriendly OS.

cunawarit

October 27th, 2006, 09:05 AM

The problem is trying to identify between a user who doesn't know much but is willing to learn, and the user who simply wants to absorb things by osmosis and then is angered when people tell them to RTFM.

I do think however that sometimes people are overly harsh, and perhaps even smug about the fact they are Ubuntu users. One thing to keep in perspective is that to many users of other distros Ubuntu users are noobs themselves.

I understand why it happens though, at work some of us might not be able to tell users to go and shove it even when they deserve it. However, in the impersonal, repercussion free world of an online forum many people do just that.

zapcojake

October 27th, 2006, 03:11 PM

I've never dared try to install Gentoo, Slackware, or Linux from Scratch

Slackware is easy as pie to install and works nicely. It with Slackbook 2.0 is a great way to learn the core of Linux.

Back to the topic at hand, some people just need a little nudge to round the corner we should help them out.

PapaWiskas

October 27th, 2006, 03:31 PM

Some of the "how to burn an ISO" guides I've found to be rather cryptic, so I created this one that I think any dummy can make sense of:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso

My cousin just wanted you to know that your guide was too complicated.

I gave him a virtual slap to the back of his head through GAIM.

Idiot!

He's my cousin so I can say that.

Brunellus

October 27th, 2006, 03:48 PM

My cousin just wanted you to know that your guide was too complicated.

I gave him a virtual slap to the back of his head through GAIM.

Idiot!

He's my cousin so I can say that.
for users like this, there's also ShipIt.

TeeAhr1

October 27th, 2006, 04:08 PM

Charles Hand

October 27th, 2006, 05:16 PM

I first installed Linux using dozens of floppies, and I once wrote a print driver by poking Z80 instructions into memory byte-by-byte, yadda, yadda, yadda. AND I'm willing to help all comers, even the ones who become frustrated and vent their frustrations on the forum from time to time. (I once had to learn how to take ten breaths before clicking "send", too).

I appreciate this thread, and especially what IYY had to say about some people needing to wait a while before adopting Linux (Ubuntu, whatever), lest they go away mad and fuming.

We can't have our cake and eat it, too. If we want broader adoption of Ubuntu (so that we can have a more robust platform with more and better apps, and so that us juice-drinkers in the hood can get the satisfaction of seeing this goofy and destructive "intellectual property" monster go away), then we are going to have to figure out a way to make the great unwashed feel welcome.

That doesn't just mean helping them to learn commands, that means helping them to learn whole new paradigms and attitudes. Because open-source and community support go against the grain of what the great unwashed have been taught since the cradle. So we need to be patient with them. There is a pay-off to us for hanging in there with noobs while they get their attitude adjusted.

Whining about whiners is counter productive and (ipso facto) hypocritical.

aysiu

October 27th, 2006, 05:25 PM

Is anyone proposing we flame or make fun of people who are trying to learn?

Not that I know of.

As far as I can tell, everyone agrees here--people who are willing to learn how to burn an ISO are more likely to be successful in installing and configuring a Linux distribution. Those who are unwilling/unmotivated to learn how to do so are unlikely to be satisfied Linux users... unless they have Linux expert friends or a preinstalled system.

No one is saying we shouldn't help out new users.

Charles Hand

October 27th, 2006, 05:36 PM

I'm saying there is a payoff to us for helping people learn to be willing to learn.

Henry Rayker

October 27th, 2006, 05:36 PM

I'm not against helping new users...I'm just against new users complaining that "Linux isn't ready for the desktop!!" Honestly, If you're not ambitious enough to try to burn the ISO, you're not ambitious enough to set up your own system.

"Awwww...I'm too lazy to open this jar of tomato sauce...if only someone would open it for me, I'd undertake the long and arduous task of making a homemade lasagna..."

Honestly.

(and it's not the people willing to learn. I think that's sort of been covered. It's the people who want the installation to be easier because burning an ISO (or asking/looking up how) is too hard)

Charles Hand

October 27th, 2006, 06:00 PM

(and it's not the people willing to learn. I think that's sort of been covered. It's the people who want the installation to be easier because burning an ISO (or asking/looking up how) is too hard)

In that case I would try to suggest to the noob that perhaps he/she ought to wait a couple of releases before adopting Ubuntu, and try to get him/her to go away saying "Ubuntu is not *quite* ready for the desktop".

But I would also take a stab at convincing the person that if they adopt this new way of looking at things, where you ask questions and look things up, it may have real benefit to them as compared to the old, established way of having everything done for them. Namely, no licenses to buy, gigantic support community, gigantic development community, greater security...

indigoshift

October 28th, 2006, 04:26 AM

I'm just going to keep repeating myself... it's fun.

I'm sorry...say again? ;)

Charles Hand

October 28th, 2006, 08:14 AM

This is what people are saying:

A: I'm pretty confident I can get everything working in Linux, but I have spent five days trying to figure out how to burn an ISO properly, and I can't.

B: Five days? What have you done already?

A: I keep burning it over and over again, and none of my CDs will boot properly.

B: Have you done a Google search for how to burn an ISO?

A: No, but why is it so difficult?

B: It's not. Here's a link (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso) for how to burn one.

A: I don't want a link. I shouldn't have to learn this stuff. I just want to install Linux.

B: Good luck installing Linux if you're not even willing to learn how to do anything.

Or B: Well, if that's the way you feel about it. But if you'd be willing to learn this stuff you may be very pleased with the result.

Cynical

October 28th, 2006, 08:23 AM

In my opinion you shouldn't be using a computer if you can't figure out how to burn an iso. I blame a certain dumbed down operating system for lowering expectations to this level.

der_joachim

October 28th, 2006, 09:55 AM

In my opinion you shouldn't be using a computer if you can't figure out how to burn an iso. I blame a certain dumbed down operating system for lowering expectations to this level.

At least you live up to your name.

Can't say that I disagree with your first statement though.

Jimmy_r

November 2nd, 2006, 01:39 PM

Hate to say it, but sometimes the proper response really, really is "RTFM."

I'm no elitist, in fact, with just over a year under my belt, I'd still call myself a Linux n00b; at least two people who've posted in this thread have walked me through some rather inane difficulties of my own, in cases where either I didn't know where TFM was, or there just wasn't one at all.

That having been said, I can't count how many times I've not posted a problem because I found the answer in a search I was running in another tab. Moral of the story: Google it before you start ******* and moaning about how mean people are. This is not some obscure piece of X config we're discussing here, it's a friggin' ISO. Yes, there was a time when I didn't know how to do that either, so I went on the magic IntarWub and found out. The fact that the OP couldn't do this indicates, to me, one of two things:

1. OP is ignorant. This does not mean "stupid," this means "unaware of possibilities and resources." Ignorance is a treatable disease with a high rate of recovery, OP can be saved. Even so, I wouldn't reccommend trying to install an operating system right now. Go forth, get some learnin', come back when you feel a little more on top of it, we'll still be here.

2. OP is lazy. This is self-inflicted, and, while theoretically treatable, the recovery rate is rather low. And furthermore, I don't feel sorry for them. If you're just gonna be dead weight, get off the damn boat.

Just for the record, the OP was not unable to burn an iso... Here is the originally quoted thread for reference:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1666807#post1666807

As it is now, with a link to a howto burn iso from the ubuntu.com page I would say it is easy enough to find out how to burn the iso.

But still, just because someone might not be able to burn an ISO does not disqualify them to install ubuntu.

I first came into contact with Linux for about one year ago. I think the hardest part in installing my first Linux distro(Breezy) was just the burning of an iso.
And yes, I googled and i eventually found out how, but I had to wade through page after page of Nero instructions and similar.

The point is, I had problems with the ISO. And I am glad i did not stumble into one of those "if you cant burn iso, dont bother installing ubuntu" rants.
I can program in C++, Java and Python. In this one year since i discovered Linux, i have installed Ubuntu, Suse, Gentoo and Linux from scratch(actually a few more, but I cant remember all). But i initially had problems with the ISO burning, so dont make that into "a level of least required knowledge".

ixus_123

November 2nd, 2006, 02:50 PM

It okk me a few goes to burn an ISO back in the day using Toast & Apple's own burner.

I don't think I could do it on Windows.

Thankfully, now there is a free burning app that onlt burns isos so you can't mess up - burncdcc or something - it's linked from puppyos.com

I can't stand elitism. It's basically saying "I'm better than you becuase I know x,y,z".

Well, once I ask & risk people thinking I'm stupid, I'll know how to do it.

I think learning Linux was probably a lot easier back in the day (when ever that may be) as more things were likely to go wrong with it. - You had to fix this, configure that, get your scroll wheel to work, etc

Now, everything just works - you don't really need to get under the hood to fix things so the opportunity or motivation to learn could be less

ixus_123

November 2nd, 2006, 02:54 PM

Oh & another point, not one ISO I burnt for the powerpc worked in my iBook - I thought I was going mad & eventually had to get a shipit CD when I found out it was a common problem.

Thing is - if the elitists had made me & others embarrassed to ask, I might never have benefited from the knowledge.

Usually a lot of people benefit from one person asking what everyone else deems to be a stupid question as a lot are just afraid to ask

EdThaSlayer

November 2nd, 2006, 04:40 PM

It is kind of weird for a person not to even try to search for a answer by themselves. As some of you have said, i prefer the word "wait" instead of the phrase "not ready", since before you install any OS you will have to research a bit. If you don't even have the will to research several answers by yourself, then linux isn't for you. But to tell you the truth, I never knew how to burn a ISO file before I met Ubuntu, then my brain actually "turned on". I will still help people! Need to visit the beginner forums now!

Lord Illidan

November 2nd, 2006, 04:48 PM

I ran into the ISO problem myself. I used CD-Rs, hadn't found about CD-RWs and first I toasted a few by opening the ISO with WinRAR then unzipping the thing into the CD.

Then, I tried Google...and got CD burner XP Pro, and once that first step is over, I could do as many other things as I wanted with Linux.

If I never found out how to burn an iso, then, nada. IMHO, Linux needs to be learnt.

Ambimom

November 2nd, 2006, 05:11 PM

Unfortunately to some, Linux is a "religion" or a "noble calling" rather than an operating system that runs a computer to get things done.

Just read the collection of nasty comments directed at people who had trouble with the upgrade to Edgy. They range from thumbing noses to downright hostility or denial that there was a problem in the first place.

Ask yourselves: Do you want free and open source for real people? Or do you want a private club with secret handshakes, secret knowledge, and silly cliques?

To dismiss people who have a legitimate desire to learn [or to burn an iso] just because they lack the knowledge you deem prerequisite, is mean-spirited. Help them! [And that does not mean advising them to "Google it!" In fact, if that is your inclination, take a deep breath and DON'T post a response at all!]

I'm no Linux expert, but I will continue to share what I have learned. Dapper is my first experience and though it took some tinkering, [and lots of help from some lovely people on this forum] it was fun. It doesn't do everything I need, but it is pretty darn close.

It's simple really. Just like your mother taught you: If you don't have anything positive to add, don't say anything.

aysiu

November 2nd, 2006, 05:16 PM

I think people are missing the point. No one is saying
Ah, you silly people who don't know how to burn an ISO. You're not as good as I am

Many people (like me) had no idea how to burn an ISO (or even what an ISO is) when we started. You know what? We figured it out.

There's a big difference between saying,
If you don't know how to burn an ISO, don't bother asking and saying
If you can't figure out (by asking someone or by searching) how to burn an ISO, you shouldn't install Linux yourself because you'll run into other problems later you won't be able to solve.

There's a big difference, and I don't think anyone in this thread has said anything remotely like the first one.

migla

November 2nd, 2006, 05:26 PM

Some people just can't comprehend burning an iso or configuring stuff.

I think everyone should have the benefit of using a computer if they want to and are the least bit capable of it (using a mouse, clicking on an icon to start a program, typing an url and that sort of things, which are way less complicated than for example burning an iso). Installation of ubuntu can really be very easy, sometimes.

Some need interactive (by phone or maybe on a chat or in a forum) step by step instructions.

If someone helps them set up a system, there's plenty even a very stupid person can do. Ofcourse, it would be much more convenient and easy if these dummies could get personal on-location help, but I don't think any question or any user should be deemed too stupid just for the inability to burn an iso. Besides, if people would ask the really stupid questions, I'd be able to answer some from time to time.

aysiu

November 2nd, 2006, 05:38 PM

I can't believe what I'm reading.

No one has said people who don't already know how to burn an ISO shouldn't be using a computer.

If you have someone set up a Linux distro for you, you can be the most computer illiterate and unmotivated-to-learn person alive, and you'll be fine, as long as you're open-minded enough to try something different.

If you're installing and configuring a new operating system by yourself, you need to be able to figure out how to do things and troubleshoot problems. If you figure those out through asking questions or doing Google searches, good for you. If you can't figure them out, what are you going to do when Ubuntu doesn't recognize your monitor's optimal screen resolution? What are you going to do when you have to download codecs (even learning how to install Automatix takes a little research)?

The inability to research problems or ask questions will hinder you in your migration.

Can anyone disagree with what I'm saying here--what I'm actually saying?

Please read this, too, because I think it very much applies to this thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

geoffm33

November 2nd, 2006, 06:04 PM

Please read this, too, because I think it very much applies to this thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

You took the words right out of my mouth.

BLTicklemonster

November 2nd, 2006, 06:21 PM

It says:

"if people don't know how to burn an iso, they shouldn't be trying to learn linux"

not:
if people don't know how to search for answers.

If I want news, look to news sources, not gossips. God only knows what kind of experiences people have trying get get answers to problems using google. I know you have good points and links, but you have to admit that such is not always the case. It is not always so cut and dry.

Besides, everyone has to start somewhere... why not in linux in the first place? What, is linux some uber world of snotty know it alls? We have our unfair share of them, but it does not need to that way.

aysiu

November 2nd, 2006, 06:32 PM

Yes, the original quotation was vaguely/badly phrased, which is why--very early on--I explained the two ways you could interpret that: one way in which it sounds elitist, another in which it sounds realistic.

No one who has actually posted in this thread (not just been quoted in this thread) has said someone should be born knowing how to burn an ISO or not learn Linux. I think even if you pressed the person being quoted, she or he would probably concede that someone willing to learn how to burn an ISO is probably fine learning Linux.

BLTicklemonster

November 2nd, 2006, 10:10 PM

Well, the best way to get a kid to start asking questions about dogs is to show them one. If someone will get linux installed and not know stuff, but have the fortitude to ask any question at all, then we have someone who is willing to learn. The first step to learning is .. .dang, I just had a total brain fart.

Anyway, I see where you are coming from, A, and I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

lazyart

November 2nd, 2006, 11:26 PM

Required reading for potential users/community members:

So you wanna install Linux? We want you to have the best Linux experience possible. Understand though that using a properly configured Linux box and properly configuring a Linux box for use are two widely different actions.

Although installing Windows seems easy (put in a disk, click through the Q&A, then locate any drivers and updates you may need, run updates and install your final software), ask yourself if you could've done it just as easily the first time you sat down to a Windows machine.

Linux is an OS. And it can do as much as any other OS. But it does some things differently. Computing concepts will help, but routines will not. This is not to scare you but to prepare you. We enjoy Linux as much as we enjoy helping you enjoy Linux.

So don't hesitate to ask. Consider yourself moving to a new culture with a new language and new customs. Don't hate-- acclimate.

---
Maybe we need a "ULP" -- Ubuntu Local Presence... folks who are willing to help people in their local area to install Ubuntu. And then we can all join hands in the Ubuntu circle and embrace a new installation.

...ok, maybe too cheesy. :D

aysiu

November 2nd, 2006, 11:40 PM

Even for experienced Windows users, a Windows installation from scratch can be a quite harrowing experience.

I'm not talking restore disks here.

John.Michael.Kane

November 2nd, 2006, 11:50 PM

Any OS install will require the enduser to Improvise, Adapt and Overcome. There is no easy way around it short of having your own personal IT staff on hand in house.

BLTicklemonster

November 3rd, 2006, 12:11 AM

Even for experienced Windows users, a Windows installation from scratch can be a quite harrowing experience.

I'm not talking restore disks here.

I have this friend... he learned programming back in the day (70s) and I build computers for him, and he just messes them up and I fix them. He is at a total loss when it comes to getting stuff to work. I could make a killing off of him if I were devious. "yeah randy, your machine's toast, I need to build you a new one" every time he can't boot for some stupid reason or another. I keep wanting him to try ubuntu, but hell, what's the point, he'll just mess it up, too.

Dark_Dragon

November 3rd, 2006, 12:31 AM

Besides, everyone has to start somewhere... why not in linux in the first place? What, is linux some uber world of snotty know it alls? We have our unfair share of them, but it does not need to that way.

I agree, the way i see it rather than putting the person down for not knowing something why not help them out by telling them how to do it... i know not all of you are going to agree with this but you have to think about it... you was once there too trying to learn something new, not nessaceraly Ubuntu or an OS but something new all the same and i bet at least once throughout those times there was obsticals that you needed to overcome but couldent get there without the help of others. Now think of the person the got the message "if people don't know how to burn an iso, they shouldn't be trying to learn linux" and how they felt after recieving that. When you think about it people with the Computer 'GOD' complex realy dont think much of those people that realy have a hard time getting a grasp of the computer world (and i am ashamed to say that i have had that attitude a couple of times myself and not proud of it) if we all too the time to help one another rather than make snide remaks as "if people don't know how to burn an iso, they shouldn't be trying to learn linux" we will find alot more people will benifit from it...

I have this friend... he learned programming back in the day (70s) and I build computers for him, and he just messes them up and I fix them. He is at a total loss when it comes to getting stuff to work. I could make a killing off of him if I were devious. "yeah randy, your machine's toast, I need to build you a new one" every time he can't boot for some stupid reason or another. I keep wanting him to try ubuntu, but hell, what's the point, he'll just mess it up, too.

This i find is common with my mum but as she has not only me (im windows oriented but trying to learn Linux as well) but she has my Uncle that knows alot more than I do to help her out of problems :) and i know how frustrating it can get when it happends to be the same problem over and over :S...

Thats my 2 cents (sorry if i offended neone at all)...

-- DD

aysiu

November 3rd, 2006, 12:38 AM

I agree, the way i see it rather than putting the person down for not knowing something why not help them out by telling them how to do it... i know not all of you are going to agree with this but you have to think about it... you was once there too trying to learn something new, not nessaceraly Ubuntu or an OS but something new all the same and i bet at least once throughout those times there was obsticals that you needed to overcome but couldent get there without the help of others. Now think of the person the got the message "if people don't know how to burn an iso, they shouldn't be trying to learn linux" and how they felt after recieving that. When you think about it people with the Computer 'GOD' complex realy dont think much of those people that realy have a hard time getting a grasp of the computer world (and i am ashamed to say that i have had that attitude a couple of times myself and not proud of it) if we all too the time to help one another rather than make snide remaks as "if people don't know how to burn an iso, they shouldn't be trying to learn linux" we will find alot more people will benifit from it... I thought we already went over this?

Can you re-read the first page of this thread?

No one, except the person you're quoting, has said anything remotely elitist. And it's even possible that the person you're quoting merely expressed herself (or himself) badly and didn't mean it that way.

Geez.

Sometimes I can't make up my mind which irks me more--elitism or reverse elitism.

I was a new Ubuntu user once, not too long ago. I didn't know how to burn an ISO. I looked it up. I figured it out. If you're installing a new operating system, you have to be willing to look things up, figure things out, and ask questions.

Otherwise, no, you shouldn't learn Linux, because you're not open to learning at all.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that there are only two kinds of Ubuntu users--those who are computer whizzes and elitists, and then those who know nothing about computers and will never know anything. The truth is that many Ubuntu users are like me--knew nothing about Ubuntu or Linux to begin with and actually took the effort to learn how to do things like burning ISOs (an activity previously foreign to us before).

If there is to be any division, it is this:

1. Those who are willing to put in effort to learn
2. Those who aren't willing to put in an effort to learn

#2 can't use Linux unless someone installs and configures it for them--bottom line.

NeoLithium

November 3rd, 2006, 12:41 AM

For some reason; I don't mind the problems that some people post; although I would wish people would search the forums more, etc. Still, some of them also, immediately post here because they have read through other things, and know that the people here are very good at helping and working to solutions.

That being said, I'll never tell someone, SEARCH THE FORUMS or GOOGLE IT! and leave; that's just pretty unfair for them; and chances are they could make something worse with a bad article, and then triple the effort needed to fix a simple problem that just snowballed.

I know that from experience, when I first started with linux; I reinstalled SO many times; but hey, that's the fun for me in learning; I never made the same mistakes twice; but then again, not everyone can afford to burn that kind of time and energy.

PriceChild

November 3rd, 2006, 12:44 AM

For some reason; I don't mind the problems that some people post; although I would wish people would search the forums more, etc. Still, some of them also, immediately post here because they have read through other things, and know that the people here are very good at helping and working to solutions.There are stickies up... nothing more can be done to persuade users really is there?

I know that from experience, when I first started with linux; I reinstalled SO many times; but hey, that's the fun for me in learning; I never made the same mistakes twice; but then again, not everyone can afford to burn that kind of time and energy.+1

aysiu

November 3rd, 2006, 12:51 AM

If people are satisfied with their search results, good for them, but I think they're better off asking most of the time.

I've seen some lousy dual boot guides out there, for example, and I'd much rather people say, "Hey, what's a good dual boot guide?" so I can refer them to http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzone or http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/installing than have them do a Google search and try to follow this guide:
http://www.crhc.uiuc.edu/~mjmille2/howtos/dual-boot-linux-and-windows/

BLTicklemonster

November 3rd, 2006, 01:12 AM

Woo hoo, I'm elitely unsnotty.

Sorry that I came off that way.

To me, "google it" = "rtfm".

Two parents watching their child try to walk, the child lifts up it's hands seeking guidance, the parents walk over, look the little tyke in the eye, and say, "google it".

Nah, that's stupid for me to say that. (which is why I said it, right?)

I was attention deficit before they had any idea what it was. The teachers all went on and on about stuff, and it made no sense to me. I'd ask them to show me what they were talking about, and they'd have the unmitigated gall to tell me I wasn't trying. To my face, as I was trying, they'd say I wasn't trying. To this day, when I see someone ask for help, and someone posts for them to find out themselves, it just strikes a nerve. I'm not a reverse elitist, I'm a veteran. Everything I have learned about computers, I learned myself. Yes I have asked for advice here or earlier on over at virtualdr, but for the most part, I used altavista now google. There are few problems I can't solve when I get my head wrapped around a concept. Linux baffled me for years because the only way to learn it was from books written by people who unfortunately for people like me, don't explain well. It's like the difference between a person who instructs and a person who teaches. Too many instructors, not enough teachers, thats how I see it.

So if I bothered anyone with my attitude, maybe you see a little more why I feel the way I do.

distroman

November 3rd, 2006, 01:41 AM

I am not really good at contributing to endless debates. I did get intrigued along the way, so here goes.

One thing I have noticed about the community surrounding ubuntu, is how helpful people are, even too people that seem quit disagreeable. This is not de facto to say the very least.
In my experience it's fairly unique for ubuntu, maybe it's the obvious outcome of ubuntu or could be it's a new trend.

It's way more interesting then elitism, some just need to outgrow it and most do. Hopefully no one ever outgrows getting excited, that's a different matter.
All humans are morons at times.

I especially liked this one “helping people learn to be willing to learn”.
That's a given, all need to be willing to at least try to learn, learning people to learn is fare from given.
It's not that I am a saint and it can get to cute, but then if you start to think nothing hardly ever seems trivial.

If there's some nonsense it could be because I am not English or it could be that you just don't agree, that's fine too.
Which may be why I just had to do an edit.:KS

BLTicklemonster

November 3rd, 2006, 03:25 AM

All humans are morons at times.

True, and I'm a shining example of that many times. But I try to redeem myself. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=289705)

I truly hope I didn't tick anyone off with my rant. I have the utmost respect for all here, and one in particular, and I'm not the least bit uncomfortable admitting that I really look up to aisyu (even though I prolly spelled that wrong).

awakatanka

November 3rd, 2006, 12:22 PM

I blame a certain dumbed down operating system for lowering expectations to this level.
Ubuntu and gnome are trying hard to copy this behavior. Dumbing down everything to a lvl that those users can use it to.

Is so hard to point someone in the right direction even if its a stupid question to you? Just help our stay out that thread. A simple reply with if you use google to find the answer is more friendly then that reply.

Ubuntu targets people that never used computers our windows users that wanna change ( projects in 3th world schools etc ). They come here and ask questions and get answers like this. ](*,)

Learn to get this kind of questions and answer our stay out of the thread.

BLTicklemonster

November 3rd, 2006, 12:37 PM

Dumbed down? Do you suppose Neanderthals call us noobs because we used those dumbed down strike anywhere matches? How dumbed down can it be when it's taking the linux community this long to catch down- I mean up? :mrgreen:

jaytek13

November 3rd, 2006, 12:44 PM

I do find it kind of distressing to find responses like that even on the beginner forum. While I have been using linux for upwards of 5 years, I have always found the elitist attitude of most linux users to be, how you say, distasteful.

And it really does tear down this community as a whole, and what Ubuntu is supposed to represent. It's yet another thing I don't understand; Why use ubuntu with an elitist attitude when there are better, more fitting options, such as slackware?

Personally, I really think the forum moderators need to seriously crack down on the people who talk down to new users. It gives linux, and Ubuntu, a very bad representation. One thing I've learned over the years is that many Windows users know of the elitist attitude many linux users have and that is why they avoid changing.

And as the old adage goes; if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

distroman

November 3rd, 2006, 04:44 PM

True, and I'm a shining example of that many times. But I try to redeem myself. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=289705)

I truly hope I didn't tick anyone off with my rant. I have the utmost respect for all here, and one in particular, and I'm not the least bit uncomfortable admitting that I really look up to aisyu (even though I prolly spelled that wrong).
I guess it would be appropriate to thank all that give and help out, thank you. :)

Saying it's not de facto, could imply that all other should adopt this “ubuntu” behavior. That was not my intention and neither the intention of the thread, I truly respect some has other needs, that's not necessarily elitism.

The point really is, I have found two things to be true, I leave the ubuntu forum with a good read and in a good mood.

Seems like rude and unpleasant only get ubuntu love and understanding within sanity I suppose.

How can that not get you in a good mood. :)

aysiu

November 3rd, 2006, 04:48 PM

Personally, I really think the forum moderators need to seriously crack down on the people who talk down to new users. We do.

Next time you see it, report the post, and we'll get on it.

BLTicklemonster

November 3rd, 2006, 06:30 PM

One note for Linux developers: 'Stop assuming that everyone using Linux (or who wants to use Linux) is a Linux expert. (http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/03/1535203)

daynah

November 3rd, 2006, 06:34 PM

Why is this in Feisty Fawn discussion?
Why does this deserve it's own thread? Why not just either reply to the thread in which that was said, or PM the person responsible.
I personally agree with the statement. If you can't burn an .iso and install from a Live CD, you're not ready for Linux really, are you? What are you going to do when you see a terminal?
Even if you were right, don't blame the community for one person's opinion. [-(

Sorry, bub, you're wrong. And I say that in the nicest way possible. I am quite geeky, I built a computer, or two. I even modded a case. I'm a geek.

But I never burned a cd before I burned the iso to install ubuntu.

Uuuuhhhh...

I've been using ubuntu for a year now, and currently I've just started up a club at my college for Linux users to connect so that we can get more Linux users and that the new users can find a physical person to go to for help, because it helps psychologically when things go wrong.

In all my years of computing, I had just never burned a cd. That's right. None of my cd players had been nice enough to play burnt cds, even burnt "as cds" or whatever and I got that ANCIENT creative jukebox.

So no, if you don't know how to burn an iso, you are still "smart enough" to use ubuntu.

RE: Elitism.

This was the discussion in my Social Psychology class. The teacher had actually brought up mac users (he is a mac user) because the students know what a mac is, assuredly.

When someone makes a big decision... like purchasing a car, or switching OS, there's a bit of worry there in the beginning. The money involved with that car (ha! and the mac). The data involved, and the programs you're leaving behind and the unknown future with the OS. This causes "dissonance" and humans don't like to be in a state of dissonance. This... state of honestly being unsure about our decision. So we compensate.

We honestly force ourselves to like our decision more than really is required. You know those stickers on the backs of cars with the guy that's peeing on... something? Maybe he's peeing on a honda logo and it's on the back of a Ford car. Well that guy was probably nervous about putting all that money down about that car... what if something goes wrong? He started, then, focusing on how great this feature is and that feature is and ignoring it's faults, and also putting down other alternatives helps him assure himself that he made the right decision.

It's perfectly NATURAL. And it's expounded on when people ask "why did you make that decision?" Then you have a social pressure to stand up for your decision, and you really feel social pressure not to back out of it. This is higher in OS than in cars, because so few people have an, well, "off brand" OS. So people have a natural stronger need to explain to themselves and others why over and over again they made this decision, and never back out of it.

This is natural. To change from this, is to rise above nature. We rise above nature all the time, we don't randomly attack cows in pastures and such. :) But remember when you see someone acting this way, he's (or she's!) simply being natural and there's a lot of internal and social pressure to explain himself.

aysiu

November 3rd, 2006, 07:13 PM

One note for Linux developers: 'Stop assuming that everyone using Linux (or who wants to use Linux) is a Linux expert. (http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/03/1535203)
What evidence do you have that they assume that?

As far as I can tell, every release of Ubuntu has been focused on making the interface more "user-friendly" and GUI-centric.

BLTicklemonster

November 3rd, 2006, 07:32 PM

I used a quote from the article that links to on slash dot. Click it. Interesting stuff. :-D

And I don't really agree with that sentiment. I mean here we are, right? This time last year when I first started playing around with ubuntu, I was so freaking lost it's not funny. I have a long way to go yet, but I like a challenge, and ubuntu is really cool, because I'm getting more out of my computer than I ever could (have afforded to :) ) using Windows.

So I see where you are coming from, perhaps a person who has no idea what is involved might not be a likely candidate for linux, but I'd never suggest to them not to at least try. Everyone needs a chance. Who knows, perhaps some of the people who are totally clueless will one day move on to be lead developers in future incarnations of Ubuntu. You just never know. And the very spirit of ubuntu: for human beings... well noobs are humans, too.

BLTicklemonster

November 4th, 2006, 04:47 PM

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=292233 !!!! (go to post 7)

BUT looking through this person's posts, he appears to be competent at linux. Noob, or someone who needs an answer to a question? You tell me.

xhaan

November 4th, 2006, 05:38 PM

I didn't read all these posts, but...
What's so hard about an iso to begin with?

I think people are defeated by their own mindset.. in fact, I think some people actually milk their own inexperience, for whatever reason.

Just take that "computers are too hard" mindset and throw it out the window. You'll find that you will learn a lot faster.

For example, my dad got our first Windows PC around 1996... before that we had an Apple IIc. My dad and I both just dove in and figure out all sorts of things in the first day, and we never used a windowing environment before. We both learned because we weren't afraid of the thing. My mom on the other hand... years later she was still asking us how to close a window, even though we already told her like an hour earlier just in case she forgot. She was afraid of the computer, my dad and I were not.

spinflick

November 4th, 2006, 06:05 PM

I liked some of the replies Not Ready!! (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/index.php?p=133) go to the bottom of the page ;)

BLTicklemonster

November 4th, 2006, 09:25 PM

What's so hard about an iso to begin with?

Unfamiliarity. If you go open a program that burns cds, then, not knowing better, just set the iso to the file window and burn, you get the iso on a cd. Most people don't know that to burn an iso image to cd, you have to "burn the image to cd", not "burn the file to cd". Image files are unique this way, and your average Joe doesn't know this.

But it's such a small hump to get over, I don't see why it would be a barometer of one's capacity to learn to use ubuntu.

steveneddy

November 5th, 2006, 05:28 AM

I think you both kind of have a point, to be honest.

On the one hand, elitism of any kind ("Silly new user, how dare you try to learn Linux when you can't even burn an ISO? Ha ha ha!") is a bad attitude.

On the other hand, you're lying to yourself if you imagine you can install and configure a Linux distro if you can't even figure out (through a Google search or whatnot) how to burn an ISO.

It's just an indicator that you're going to run into a lot of trouble later. You think things are tough learning how to burn an ISO? Well, just wait until you try to configure your X server or use ndiswrapper to get your wireless working.

You can view it as elitism or someone can express it as elitism if she wants to, but it's also the plain truth: if you can't figure out how to burn an ISO, your only hope in the world of Linux is to have a Linux expert friend who will install and configure it for you, or to buy Linux preinstalled from a vendor like System76 (http://www.system76.com).

Some of the "how to burn an ISO" guides I've found to be rather cryptic, so I created this one that I think any dummy can make sense of:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso

I've found that listening to aysiu can be detrimental to your stupidity. If it wasn't for aysiu, I wouldn't have been able to keep my Ubuntu install running so well for as long as I have. Everything I have learned and done to this machine, aysiu was there on every forum post I looked at for some silly problem that the "know it all's" already knew.

The second hard drive trick when I deleted my windows and used the HD for storage was a God send for advice.

We should all teach what we know to others in this community and society as a whole as far as that goes, without pulling the elitism attitude out and slapping them around with it.

Be excellent to each other, Dude.

-SE

BLTicklemonster

November 5th, 2006, 06:28 AM

I've found that listening to aysiu can be detrimental to your stupidity. If it wasn't for aysiu, I wouldn't have been able to keep my Ubuntu install running so well for as long as I have. Everything I have learned and done to this machine, aysiu was there on every forum post I looked at for some silly problem that the "know it all's" already knew.

The second hard drive trick when I deleted my windows and used the HD for storage was a God send for advice.

We should all teach what we know to others in this community and society as a whole as far as that goes, without pulling the elitism attitude out and slapping them around with it.

Be excellent to each other, Dude.

-SE

Yes, that is one person I can always count on for advice. Pulled me out of a few deep ones before.

aysiu

November 5th, 2006, 06:48 AM

Polygon

November 5th, 2006, 08:24 AM

Unfamiliarity. If you go open a program that burns cds, then, not knowing better, just set the iso to the file window and burn, you get the iso on a cd. Most people don't know that to burn an iso image to cd, you have to "burn the image to cd", not "burn the file to cd". Image files are unique this way, and your average Joe doesn't know this.

But it's such a small hump to get over, I don't see why it would be a barometer of one's capacity to learn to use ubuntu.

a perfect example of this is nero. the interface is so bad, and it doesnt give you any help on what the hell is the difference between an iso and a udf disc, (i tried to burn a 3.4 gb file to a dvd but it kept failing because iso or something cant support files over 2gb, thanks for telling me that nero) there are a ton of confusing opions to choose from, and if you try the simple interface i cant even find where to burn an image

i love gnomebaker... or even the default gnome cd burner. simply drag an iso to the window and click burn. nice and simple.

Charles Hand

November 5th, 2006, 08:32 AM

Personally, I really think the forum moderators need to seriously crack down on the people who talk down to new users. It gives linux, and Ubuntu, a very bad representation. One thing I've learned over the years is that many Windows users know of the elitist attitude many linux users have and that is why they avoid changing.

The elitist in question *is* an administrator.

Charles Hand

November 5th, 2006, 08:49 AM

The fact that I can help people with Ubuntu just goes to show there's nothing to be elitist about except the willingness to learn new things.

A year and a half ago, I knew nothing about Ubuntu. Now people are saying I was able to help them with Ubuntu?

No one is born knowing how to burn an ISO. It all comes down to a willingness to learn, search, and ask questions.

Everybody agrees. Where we disagree is on whether to exclude people who don't yet have the willingness.

At one time, Ubuntu seemed to be a program of high values, with grand visions of changing things on a grand scale. To me, Aysiu wants to bring all that back down to lowest common denominator - you're either with us or against us. You either think like us or don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I disagree with Aysiu's whole premise that grand thinking is undesirable. If we try, if we are willing to work with people whose attitude we don't like, we can actually address problems such as:

- Consumerism
- Sense of entitlement
- The dumbing down of everything
- The stagnation of curiosity
- The stagnation of excellence
- The belief that "I'm not smart enough to do that"
- Intellectual property
- ... much more

One thing's for sure, if we kick out everyone who suffers from such ills, we will never make a difference. If, on the other hand, we make an effort to make a real difference, not just in our computers but in our culture, our world will get better, regardless of how small a world we chose to live in.

aysiu

November 5th, 2006, 08:50 AM

The elitist in question *is* an administrator.
BoomStiX is not an administrator.

The original post in question is right here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1666807#post1666807).

If you believe me to be an elitist, for whatever reason, I'm sorry you feel that way. Don't know what else to tell you that I haven't already repeated multiple times in this thread.

aysiu

November 5th, 2006, 08:55 AM

Everybody agrees. Where we disagree is on whether to exclude people who don't yet have the willingness. I'm sorry, but can you point out where I say that we should exclude people who don't have the willingness to learn?

I've never said that, as far as I know. What I've said is that it's probably not a good idea to be installing Linux and configuring it if you don't have the inclination to learn how to burn an ISO because sooner or later you'll have to learn how to other stuff that may be equally or more difficult than burning an ISO.

You might as well know what's ahead. If you're going to be frustrated at the first step, better to stop then than to go through hours of frustration and stop later.

I'm not excluding anyone. I'm just trying to be realistic with people about their expectations and likelihood of success.

At one time, Ubuntu seemed to be a program of high values, with grand visions of changing things on a grand scale. To me, Aysiu wants to bring all that back down to lowest common denominator - you're either with us or against us. You either think like us or don't let the door hit you on the way out. Then you're just setting me up as a straw man to knock down because I never said or implied that.

I disagree with Aysiu's whole premise that grand thinking is undesirable. If we try, if we are willing to work with people whose attitude we don't like, we can actually address problems such as Once again, can you point out anywhere where I said grand thinking is undesirable? Or do you want to continue putting words into my mouth so that you can argue with... no one... but appear to be arguing with me?

One thing's for sure, if we kick out everyone who suffers from such ills, we will never make a difference. If, on the other hand, we make an effort to make a real difference, not just in our computers but in our culture, our world will get better, regardless of how small a world we chose to live in. I'm sorry, but when did anyone want to kick out users? I think you greatly misunderstand what I've been saying.

Well, if you want to be hostile and rip apart things I never said but attribute those things to me anyway, let it be on your conscience.

Let me put it another way.

If a new user came on to these forums and posted something like this:
What the f**k is wrong with this stupid OS? I download the .ISO and try to extract it with WinRar and I can't boot the CD? and then got a reply like this one
Try using this tutorial (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso) to burn the ISO. You shouldn't extract the ISO--you'll be burning it as a disk image, just as you downloaded it. Just follow the instructions in the tutorial and then replied back
No, this is stupid. Ubuntu is dumb. I shouldn't have to do any kind of crap like in that tutorial in order to get it running. I quit

...

What would you do? Would you say... ?

A) "Please, come back. Once you get over the ISO burning, the rest will be a breeze. You won't ever be frustrated again. Clearly, you'll pick up editing the /etc/X11/xorg.conf and installing Nvidia drivers and adding MP3 playback codecs in no time!"?

or

B) "Maybe it is best if you give up for now. You don't seem to have the patience to be installing a new OS right now because you will have to learn new things eventually. If you don't have to learn how to burn an ISO properly, eventually you will have to learn how to do other things equally as new and/or complicated, and you don't appear to have the time or inclination to do that. Come back when you're ready, and we'll be more than happy to get you up and running on Ubuntu."

If you would answer B, then we have nothing to disagree about. If you would answer A, you're just lying to the person--bait and switch...

Charles Hand

November 5th, 2006, 09:09 AM

there's nothing to be elitist about except the willingness to learn new things.

Sticky posts about "whiners" and "trolls". This is not the way to absorb the people into the community we want to absorb.

This is just my opinion, of course, but I think it doesn't work to shame and name-call people into changing. What works is meeting people respectfully where they are and leading them someplace new.

aysiu

November 5th, 2006, 09:10 AM

What works is meeting people respectfully where they are and leading them someplace new. Maybe you should take some of your own advice, then.

Charles Hand

November 5th, 2006, 09:26 AM

What would you do? Would you say... ?

A) "Please, come back. Once you get over the ISO burning, the rest will be a breeze. You won't ever be frustrated again. Clearly, you'll pick up editing the /etc/X11/xorg.conf and installing Nvidia drivers and adding MP3 playback codecs in no time!"?

or

B) "Maybe it is best if you give up for now. You don't seem to have the patience to be installing a new OS right now because you will have to learn new things eventually. If you don't have to learn how to burn an ISO properly, eventually you will have to learn how to do other things equally as new and/or complicated, and you don't appear to have the time or inclination to do that. Come back when you're ready, and we'll be more than happy to get you up and running on Ubuntu."

If you would answer B, then we have nothing to disagree about. If you would answer A, you're just lying to the person--bait and switch...

We've been here before, and as I said before A and B are not the only two choices. You have phrased B a lot better this time, but to me, it's still condescending and thus off-putting.

C: I honestly think that if you would be willing to learn some new things, you will be very pleased with the final result. This is a whole new way of thinking about computers. Give it a try - you might like it.

I dunno. The thread is about community attitude, and I think the attitude of trying to win people over while we have them here is better than the attitude of telling them to go away and come back when they change their minds. Who or what "out there" is going to change their minds? If we don't make the changes happen, who will? Bill Gates? Television? When you're talking to somebody with a bad attitude, you have an opportunity to change the world. If you say "come back when you don't have a bad attitude any more", they're not coming back.

aysiu

November 5th, 2006, 09:28 AM

I don't see how C is any less condescending.

"If you would be willing to learn some new things..."

Charles Hand

November 5th, 2006, 09:31 AM

I don't see how C is any less condescending.

"If you would be willing to learn some new things..."

The difference is between encouraging them to stay and learn why being willing is a good idea, rather than suggesting that they go away and come back when they're willing.

aysiu

November 5th, 2006, 09:34 AM

The difference is between encouraging them to stay and learn why being willing is a good idea, rather than suggesting that they go away and come back when they're willing.
Maybe I am too bitter and jaded.

I would be very surprised to see someone that unwilling to learn actually suddenly change her mind because you said, "Hey, just try to learn it," but you're right--it's worth a shot.

At a certain point, though, you do have to be realistic and tell them, "Hey, it's going to be tough." I'm never going to tell someone, "You should not use Ubuntu because you're having trouble figuring out how to burn an ISO," but I will be honest with them and tell them that figuring out such things is a lot of what they'll be doing to get their system up and running, and if they're feeling frustrated now... there's a lot more frustration ahead.

It's realism, not elitism--and that's what I've said from the very start of this thread.

Realism:
There's a lot you're going to have to figure out. Learning to burn an ISO is only the beginning of many things you will have to learn.

Elitism:
Silly noob! You can't even burn an ISO. You're not good enough to use Linux.

Excerpt from my first post in this thread:
On the one hand, elitism of any kind ("Silly new user, how dare you try to learn Linux when you can't even burn an ISO? Ha ha ha!") is a bad attitude.

On the other hand, you're lying to yourself if you imagine you can install and configure a Linux distro if you can't even figure out (through a Google search or whatnot) how to burn an ISO. So how am I an elitist? How am I not helping new users out?

HW_Hack

November 5th, 2006, 10:08 AM

I have little patience with "tech-elitists" -- its really just juvenile behavior

I have a lot of patience with anyone having problems using a computer -- and even more patience with those who are trying to learn more about what really "drives" a computer besides - mouse clicks and folders

I've got 20yrs in tek starting in hardware debug - to designing entire PCs for Intel. I own both PCs and a iMac - using both fluidly .. and I had a bit of a battle getting my first linux distro downloaded ( Bit Torrents ?) and the whole ISO thing --- but that was 4 distros ago and 8 or 9 installs

But lets re-frame the question a bit -- I'll take a wild guess that over 90% of all PCs come delivered to the "user" pre-loaded and set to go -- and of all PC users (macs included) probably less than 20% could load the OS of choice from a shrink-wrapped package and end up with a functioning machine.

Bottom line is technology is still way behind being truly user friendly or robust. And the line between a "PC my grand-ma could use" and what is technologically feasible / viable is very grey and very wide.

Re-loading an OS or loading an new OS is the equivalent of say rebuilding the engine in your car ... how many grand-ma's are doing that.

I am blown away at how far linux has come and where it may go .... every desktop we can get linux on is one less Windows desktop - and we should be helping in any way we can.

Ambimom

November 5th, 2006, 04:08 PM

Well said HW_Hack!

jhenager

November 16th, 2006, 09:55 PM

Yes, the phrasing could be better, but there's still truth in there.

Agreed. I would have put it this way.
If you are having difficulty burning an ISO, perhaps you could find a friend that is more familiar with Linux to help you.

Someone posted today that they couldn't find windows after installing Ubuntu on someone else's computer. I have a bad feeling that they overwrote whatever was already on it. I hope I'm wrong, because that would be a real bummer.

aysiu

November 16th, 2006, 10:10 PM

I would rephrase it even more, actually:
If after searching the internet and getting direct help from other users on the forums you are still having difficulty burning an ISO, perhaps you could find a friend that is more familiar with Linux to help you install and configure it.

justin whitaker

November 16th, 2006, 10:54 PM

I'm probably the wrong person to talk about installing Linux since I've installed various distributions 100s of times since I started dabbling with RH6. That's about as far back into the bad old days as I cared to get.

Even now, I am still learning, so how can I fault someone else for wanting to learn? Sure, I can add/remove/delete/move partitions, install and configure everything outside of Gentoo (no patience for it), even play windows games on WINE or Cedega....but this is not normal behavior.

As a friend of mine pointed out, not everyone finds repartitioning a drive and installing 10 linux distros easy to do. :mrgreen:

There is a disconnect between the various parts of the Ubuntu community, and it is reflective of Linux users in general.

1. Curious Windows Users

These guys and gals heard all about Ubuntu, and wanted to try it out. This is their first linux distro. They expect everything to work out of the box, and when it doesn't, they are easily frustrated. This is because most of what we take for granted, XP does for them, or they never had to do. This is probably 50% of the posters here.

2. Linux Expats.

This group has been using Linux for years, and after all is said and done, they just want things to work. They come from everywhere, looking for the perfect fit for what they are doing. They are not "noobs", but some of the things about Ubuntu are not familiar to them. 20%.

3. The Gurus.

These guys know their stuff, and help out when and where they can. They live and breathe apt, and are more than willing to live the code. 10%.

4. The Evangelists

These guys and gals live and breathe the Open Source philosophy. If it is proprietary, it must be killed. They have been called zealots, communists, nutters...keep in mind without these folks, there wouldn't be an open source movement at all. 10%.

5. The Elitists

There is a group, in every community, that is small, but voiciferous, and is enamored with their own voice. For them, nothing is fast, cutting edge, or radical enough-they live for the day they can point out how smart they are, and belittle someone that is just starting out.

Their clarion call is: "Read the manual noob", and, alternately, "Real men use Gentoo!" 10%.

The first 4 groups are necessary for any linux community. We need new users-they will drive the market share for your favorite distro. They should be helped no matter what, with every ounce of patience you have. We also need the gurus and evangelists. They keep the community honest.

Noone needs the Elitists. All they do is sabotage the efforts of evangelists and the gurus to help the newcomers. They set up a negative attitude that makes the new user feel unwelcome, and they leave. If you want to see what a bunch of elitists can do to a community, wander over to the Vector Linux forums or the Vidalinux forums sometime. It's enlightening.

With linux, the community is the marketers.Companies have paid marketing staff, a dedicated team to get the word out about their product. Open Source projects, generally do not. The users are, therefore, the biggest asset in growing a community.

Ask yourself: which am I, and are my actions helping the community grow? If they are not, then realign your priorities, or don't post. All you are doing is hurting the project you love.

aysiu

November 16th, 2006, 11:00 PM

Even now, I am still learning, so how can I fault someone else for wanting to learn? No one is faulting anyone for wanting to learn.

We're letting people know that if they're not willing to learn... they're in for a rough ride.

By the way, I don't fit into any of your categories.

justin whitaker

November 16th, 2006, 11:11 PM

No one is faulting anyone for wanting to learn.

We're letting people know that if they're not willing to learn... they're in for a rough ride.

That all depends if you thoroughly walk someone through something, doesn't it?

I'm not saying that you have done it, since you generally rock. I'm saying that someone coming over from XP probably has never seen a command line, wouldn't know apt if it bit them, and the only kernel they know comes in popcorn.

My Boss always tells me that I start at the end when giving a presentation. I'm a results guy. :mrgreen: The problem is, the audience does not know how I got there, so then I have to go back and walk them through it.

The better way is: start with the basics. Assume that the person does not know a damn thing, and work up from there. Bring them along, every step of the way, and you will get their buy in.

The same approach will work here.

Bells

November 16th, 2006, 11:15 PM

No one is faulting anyone for wanting to learn.

We're letting people know that if they're not willing to learn... they're in for a rough ride.

By the way, I don't fit into any of your categories.

I agree wih this, the google hancicapped problem is on a rise, people don't know and won't bother to find out so they just say "ah well, i tried, Linux is not ready for the desktop".

Linux isn't harder than Windows, it's just different from Windows.

It's just as ready for the average desktop (buisness wise at least, not one government or affiliates in the EU will use MS, most will use SuSE, take a wild guess regarding cross patenting Novell and MS, the market is bigger than the US and Asia usually follows Europe, not the US.

dataw0lf

November 16th, 2006, 11:16 PM

That all depends if you thoroughly walk someone through something, doesn't it?

The problem arises when you let go of the hand. Usually, it's relatively easy to tell if they're just going to flounder until someone comes along and keeps helping them, or if they're going to strike out and try to learn something.

I'm not opposed to helping newbies. I'm opposed to helping people who won't show appreciation, and aren't willing to help themselves. It can be frustrating and a little annoying. This is part of the reason people experience backlash from gurus, experts, whatever you want to call them. Sure, there are a few bad apples out there who just have bad attitudes, but most have heard so much whining and complaining about what they're not doing, that they're unwilling to keep doing what they WERE doing.

aysiu

November 16th, 2006, 11:17 PM

I fully agree with you on that point--don't skip steps, walk people through things.

I try my best to create tutorials that assume very little about a user's knowledge (especially since I was that user not too long ago).

I do believe, though, that there is a certain practical reality that some people have to face, and this has nothing to do with elitism:

You either figure out (with online help) yourself how to do something, or you get someone to do it for you. That's the bottom line. Linux isn't going to magically wind up on your computer.

There are basically three routes to a working Linux desktop system:

1. Pay someone like System 76 (http://www.system76.com) to install and configure it for you

2. Convince a Linux-using friend to install it for you for free (probably won't take much convincing, but you have to have a Linux-using friend)

3. Install and configure Linux yourself with the help of books, forums, and Google searches

If you refuse to do #1 and can't do #2, that leaves #3 as your only option, and if you can't do #3... well, sorry, but you can't use Linux. Nothing elitist about it. Sheer pragmatism.

Bells

November 16th, 2006, 11:19 PM

That all depends if you thoroughly walk someone through something, doesn't it?

I'm not saying that you have done it, since you generally rock. I'm saying that someone coming over from XP probably has never seen a command line, wouldn't know apt if it bit them, and the only kernel they know comes in popcorn.

My Boss always tells me that I start at the end when giving a presentation. I'm a results guy. :mrgreen: The problem is, the audience does not know how I got there, so then I have to go back and walk them through it.

The better way is: start with the basics. Assume that the person does not know a damn thing, and work up from there. Bring them along, every step of the way, and you will get their buy in.

The same approach will work here.

If they don't want to spend the time to learn Linux, why should anyone care?

Linux ISN'T ready for the desktop until DESKTOP USERS are ready for Linux.

shining

November 16th, 2006, 11:23 PM

2. Convince a Linux-using friend to install it for you for free (probably won't take much convincing, but you have to have a Linux-using friend)

Or family :)

jd65pl

January 7th, 2007, 10:28 PM

dbbolton

January 7th, 2007, 10:38 PM

you'll get arrogance from any group of users. in fact, one person on this forum has repeatedly been snide and condescending to me.

personally, i think it's ok to look at one operating system, program, machine, or what have you as being superior to another, but not ok to think that owning/using one of those makes a person superior to another.

edit:

i think you should put a wider range of options in the poll. it's basically "often or never." what about "just a few times?"

jd65pl

January 7th, 2007, 10:47 PM

Thanks for your reply

I guess you're right that there will be arrogance in all areas of the field, I don't imagine anyone gets any real benefit from it though.

Something that makes me smile is the same people who slate Microsoft for their monopoly in the operating system and productivity suite market also tend to be those who dislike people without much experience using unix like operating systems. Slightly hypocritical I think!

Xzallion

January 7th, 2007, 11:03 PM

I can't think of a subject I haven't met a arragant individual in. Computer programming, Mathmatics, operating systems (BeOS, Windows, Linux, Unix, Mac, and many others... the war never ends). In short, we are in no short supply of arragant people in the world.

meng

January 7th, 2007, 11:14 PM

I voted no, not because I'm certain that it has never happened to me, but because it must happen so rarely, and it doesn't 'register' in my memory. Life is too short to dwell on unpleasant experiences, and sometimes we let ourselves obsess about that rare unpleasant interaction and forget about all the other pleasant ones. If someone wants to be a JERK, I'm not going to give him or her the satisfaction of letting it get to me.

23meg

January 7th, 2007, 11:19 PM

maxamillion

January 7th, 2007, 11:53 PM

I think alot of arrogance comes from elitist users who get frustrated. How would you feel if you spent all of your free time writing software, packaging it, and writing documentation for it just to see roughly 80% of newbies ask a common question you have answered in the documentation. Thus the birth of the phrase "RTFM". I don't think it deserves an arrogant response, just a link to the proper documentation, but I do understand to a point where some of their frustration can come from.

taurus

January 8th, 2007, 12:23 AM

You should ask the developers and users of BSD how they thing about Linux! You will get some real fireworks going there... :twisted:

Frak

January 8th, 2007, 12:36 AM

I hate the BSD forums, they are a bunch of arrogant jerks, I asked a simple question of, how do I configure my wireless card, and nearly all the responses were rude responses like,

"you should read up more, learn to code it yourself"

and

"appearantly you don't know much do you"

and last, but not least

"ahh I almost laughed myself to death, ROTFLOL"

I wouldn't have minded if they actually helped me, but there was some people who were nice enough to swallow their pride and be a kind person, I reccomended them here.

and what does ROTFLOL mean?

Patrick-Ruff

January 8th, 2007, 12:48 AM

rolling on the floor laughing out loud.

what a lamer :)

ardvark71

January 8th, 2007, 12:49 AM

Hello All

I have never really had the feeling in the Ubuntu community of "all but computer addicts should be using Linux"

However during my recent travels around other unix based/like systems communities I have experienced a strong feeling of this arrogance and also I feeling of resentment toward Ubuntu for its success.

Is it right that a system that is easy to configure and use receives such negativity from a group of elitists who have a point of view that computing is not for the masses?

Has anyone else experienced this?

I've seen the arrogance you speak of from time to time but I have to say I've seen less of it here than in other forums. The group of elitists you mention probably just use their computing skills to make them feel good about themselves and superior to others. In reality, they're no better or different than anyone else. If Ubuntu is successful, it's because they are the first to actually attempt, in a real and meaningful way, to spread Linux to mainstream computer users (and have done so quite successfully.) The community here and the kinds of people we see are a testament to that.

Best Regards...

TLE

January 8th, 2007, 01:26 AM

I think I have come across a couple of people that seemed to enjoy the role of "fighting an impossible fight against the giant". And a somewhat larger group of people that doesn't seem interested in seeing some things develop. I can only speculate that it is because they know how to do it the hard way, and making it easier would downgrade them and their expertize to just ordinary users.

BuffaloX

January 8th, 2007, 01:48 AM

"all but computer addicts should be using Linux"

Is it right that a system that is easy to configure and use receives such negativity from a group of elitists who have a point of view that computing is not for the masses?

Don't you mean: "ONLY computer addicts should be using Linux"?

I don't quite get your meaning...

But here are my thoughts anyway. :-k

I read this in an article:

Ubuntu is an African word for unable to install Debian.

I thought it quite funny actually. :rofl
The author of the article used Ubuntu, his friend used Debian.
And I think he was just joking.

But beneath the joke, is a bit of truth.
I think some hardcore Linux users are against making Linux too mainstream,
because they are afraid that too many users, that don't contribute, wastes developer time. Because they get too many "stupid" questions, and bad error reports.
Also too many newbie users may flood forums, and lower the overall quality.

Ubuntu is meant to be mainstream, it's meant to be easy, it's meant to be helpful if you have problems, it's meant to be usable by everybody.
Ubuntu development is much about making things easier, some in Linux community find that irrelevant, they would rather have Linux progress technologically.

I think time will show, that both ways can coexist without problems.
Unfortunately every forum has some share of intolerable people, and we can all have a sore spot, or a bad day.

RAV TUX

January 8th, 2007, 01:54 AM

I think the poll needs more options....

StarsAndBars14

January 8th, 2007, 02:05 AM

I've seen arrogant people everywhere, from Windows to Ubuntu (yes I said Ubuntu) to Debian, to Coke to Pepsi. . .ahh you get the idea.

macogw

January 8th, 2007, 02:10 AM

I marked the first response, but there should be an in between one. "I've run up against it before, but not often." Most of the *nix people I come into contact with are at school or on here or on LinuxChix and they're all nice and helpful.

My boyfriend is an arrogant code snob, though. "Java? Learn a real language, like C, or FORTRAN." "I wrote that code. D*** scriptkiddies..." He hangs out on #linux on IRC (it's a channel that is on a server which I have not been able to locate, but it's called Linux Net, and it seems to be invite-only). The rules there are "1. This is not a support channel. 2. See rule 1." If you ask a question, they'll give you bad advice that will break your computer, or they'll kick you from the channel. They're elitist jerks on that channel. He says they're great people to ask for coding help though. If you can't figure out how to implement something, they'll help then. I know someone else on it though, and she's really nice IRL and on LinuxChix, so I think it's just the atmosphere of that channel. My boyfriend can be helpful, but he says he doesn't like users. He hates Ubuntu because it means more Linux users. To him more users = more feature requests and more features = more bugs, so more users mean more bugs. Consequently, typing "man" or "--help" on one of his apps results in "There is no help!" being spit out. He doesn't want anyone but himself and maybe a couple friends with whom he shares using his code. Then again, he doesn't release code anyway. That's also why he hates Ubuntu (he calls it ubuttoo). It's making Linux easy and mainstream. He doesn't even like GUIs. He uses a Mac and does everything from bash.

If you're friends with him he'll help ya out. He fixed it when I deleted my taskbar in Fluxbox and then switched WM's to Metacity (I thought it'd give me Gnome back...) and couldn't click anything. I know not to ask him to teach me more about Linux (he's used it for 15 years), because it'll result in him moving system files so things break with him expecting me to find what they are and where they go. "I changed 8 things. Find them!" He responds very well to "teach me code" though. He says he's going to make a real coder out of me. That makes me happy because I want to be productive...like, doing something to make Linux better rather than just mooching off of other people's code.

Frak

January 8th, 2007, 02:36 AM

My boyfriend can be helpful, but he says he doesn't like users. He hates Ubuntu because it means more Linux users. To him more users = more feature requests and more features = more bugs, so more users mean more bugs. Consequently, typing "man" or "--help" on one of his apps results in "There is no help!" being spit out. He doesn't want anyone but himself and maybe a couple friends with whom he shares using his code. Then again, he doesn't release code anyway. That's also why he hates Ubuntu (he calls it ubuttoo). It's making Linux easy and mainstream. He doesn't even like GUIs. He uses a Mac and does everything from bash.

Wow, your boyfriends way wrong, just because it has more features doesn't immediately mean more bugs, maybe at the begging, but being open source, more people that do know how to code can help, thus resolving bugs quite quickly, and I'm sorry but I don't respect any coder that doesn't at least try to help out the user, try to work out bugs, or even try to make it more user friendly.

If you're friends with him he'll help ya out. He fixed it when I deleted my taskbar in Fluxbox and then switched WM's to Metacity (I thought it'd give me Gnome back...) and couldn't click anything. I know not to ask him to teach me more about Linux (he's used it for 15 years), because it'll result in him moving system files so things break with him expecting me to find what they are and where they go. "I changed 8 things. Find them!" He responds very well to "teach me code" though. He says he's going to make a real coder out of me. That makes me happy because I want to be productive...like, doing something to make Linux better rather than just mooching off of other people's code.

I'm sorry, but I've lost all respect for your "boyfriend", he sounds like a real jerk. I work for a High School and am in charge of just about every change that happens, so I have to learn just about every Scripting/Machine Language known, (OK actually I just get paid more for passing a test on different Coding Languages), but when I submit my programs to sourceforge, I always provide screenshots, documentation, CVS, and my email for support, I respect the community in that way.

Oh and I despise people who teach by making things worse, that only makes things worse; use guides or something, the official site of the languages almost always have a tutorial program available for download, learn from that, not arrogant jerks who poke fun at people trying to be good people, by using FOSS, and not supporting monopolizing companies, those jerks make me sick!

macogw

January 8th, 2007, 02:47 AM

Wow, your boyfriends way wrong, just because it has more features doesn't immediately mean more bugs, maybe at the begging, but being open source, more people that do know how to code can help, thus resolving bugs quite quickly, and I'm sorry but I don't respect any coder that doesn't at least try to help out the user, try to work out bugs, or even try to make it more user friendly.

Oh and I despise people who teach by making things worse, that only makes things worse; use guides or something, the official site of the languages almost always have a tutorial program available for download, learn from that, not arrogant jerks who poke fun at people trying to be good people, by using FOSS, and not supporting monopolizing companies, those jerks make me sick!

I said he was an arrogant code snob. I wasn't kidding. Basically, though, when you add features, the program becomes unstable. After a while, it stabilizes from tweaks and bug reports and patches and all, but at first it's unstable. Sort of seems like the type to be using Debian Stable from two releases ago :-P He prefers stability to high-functionality as the Unix way is "do one thing and do it well." Remember though, in his ideal world, there are no users to help out and "user friendly" means he can use it since he's the sole user. He almost never releases code either in binary or source form (so it's not really open source). He just writes what HE needs.

Actually, "I broke it, you fix it" is how I learned to use computers. My family breaks them all the time. I fix them. Every time I troubleshoot and fix, I learn more about how they work, and I'm better prepared for next time. It does work.

Frak

January 8th, 2007, 02:52 AM

I said he was an arrogant code snob. I wasn't kidding. Basically, though, when you add features, the program becomes unstable. After a while, it stabilizes from tweaks and bug reports and patches and all, but at first it's unstable. Sort of seems like the type to be using Debian Stable from two releases ago :-P He prefers stability to high-functionality as the Unix way is "do one thing and do it well." Remember though, in his ideal world, there are no users to help out and "user friendly" means he can use it since he's the sole user. He almost never releases code either in binary or source form (so it's not really open source). He just writes what HE needs.

Well when he's the last person on Earth, he'll be able to fix his own problems.:rolleyes:

Actually, "I broke it, you fix it" is how I learned to use computers. My family breaks them all the time. I fix them. Every time I troubleshoot and fix, I learn more about how they work, and I'm better prepared for next time. It does work.

But that wasn't intentional, It's just my belief that you should only screw up something you don't really have to use, like an old monitor or something, but not your computer, thats just unethical.

macogw

January 8th, 2007, 03:03 AM

But that wasn't intentional, It's just my belief that you should only screw up something you don't really have to use, like an old monitor or something, but not your computer, thats just unethical.
He needed his monitor but it didn't stop him from blowing up a few of them trying to write a graphics driver :D Yeah, I told him he couldn't break my laptop because it has homework. I have a spare computer for unstable stuff and for playing and breaking and trying (and hopefully succeeding) to fix.

fuscia

January 8th, 2007, 03:10 AM

never. i've visited a bunch of forums and asked retarded questions and always got the help i needed. i'm lucky, though. my whole life, even when people thought i was weird, i always felt welcome on their planet. i have no explanation for it.

Frak

January 8th, 2007, 03:10 AM

He needed his monitor but it didn't stop him from blowing up a few of them trying to write a graphics driver :D Yeah, I told him he couldn't break my laptop because it has homework. I have a spare computer for unstable stuff and for playing and breaking and trying (and hopefully succeeding) to fix.

There are sacrifices, as long as you know the consequences of whats going to happen.

purdy hate machine

January 8th, 2007, 08:57 AM

I can’t say that I have encountered that kind of attitude amongst the Linux users that I know. Life’s to short to get all emotional over an operating system.

roachk71

January 8th, 2007, 09:12 AM

I don't dwell too much upon the subject, but I do tech support (including OS [re]installation), always giving the owner an option as to which system(s) they'd like to install.

I get that arrogance shoved down my throat often by a certain OS' devotees, but simply let it go... They'll catch on eventually. :KS

Of course, computers in general were at one time, only usable by well-versed operators and programmers, and many of these folks are still of the mindset that only such experts should be able to use them.

EdThaSlayer

January 8th, 2007, 09:21 AM

Somethings don't really make sense. What is better, you doing all the work just to install a application or making a program that has a nice GUI making everything easier and faster do the work? Some of these elitists do seem to want to keep their "superb undefeatable knowledge' so they kind of "slow" down the development of Linux. Ubuntu fixes almost everything, making everything easy to install with a click!

macogw

January 8th, 2007, 09:50 AM

spockrock

January 8th, 2007, 10:11 AM

yeah arrogant people exist everywhere....

@macogw wow your bf for the better part of words sounds like a jerk, sorry but that what he sounds like from your description. I mean no offense while he may know how to code in C or fortran, and be a linux whiz, sufficed to say some one who has done, c, c#, c++, java, vb .net, vhdl (thats a language where you code to build hardware, sounds strange but its a great language, built a 16 bit cpu with it), more hardware specific languages for robots, like rapl3. Any serious coder should know each language has its advantages and disadvantages. While he may think java is not a real language its a great language for anyone who wants to build a piece of software and port it on anything that runs jvm.

I have done C its a wonderful language, its amazing, but sufficed to say, you can really hang yourself with C. Especially when doing pointers and trees and not allowed to use available headers for it, its sucks. For my final design project for engineering me and my group mates were going to interface a webcam to a robotic arm, and design a cheap vision system for robotic arms that were not designed for it. The robot the arm it self used a hacked up version of C, but the libraries for the arms were could be used with vb and c. We as a group chose vb .net, why, simply put, its faster to develop with, and a hell of a lot easier in the time constrain. We had 4 months, couple that with our other 4-5 classes all of which had projects due as well. If we had used a 'real language' forget it, I dunno how we could of done what we did. As it is I slept very little that semester, with vb .net it let us easily create a UI, that showed the user what the webcam sees, what the robot sees, the ui, allowed for user tweaked inputs (we added that because simply put with a budget of 0$ we had to use a robot arm from the 80's, which were chain driven and hadn't been maintained, meaning on shut down and start up, the home position changes slightly). VB .net allowed use to quickly code, and interface with the robot. It worked fine, for demonstration and our advisor could control the robot(really all he did was click the pick up object button) from the computer and could see how it could see an object pick it up and put it away. The downside is vb .net has a lot of overhang, and it showed when we had to do image processing, if we did it in c, there would of been less but that would of meant much more development time.

Sorry but there is no such thing as 'a real coding language' nor is there a better operating system each has its purpose and their pros and cons.

-edit- and no I do not consider my self a serious coder, I hated coding, I am more hardware oriented, but I loved coding for the three robots I was fortunate enough to use, and coding in vhdl to make a 16 bit cpu that was tons of fun.

spockrock

January 8th, 2007, 10:14 AM

I think they often see no reason to have a GUI because they know the commands. I can download/install stuff a lot faster from the terminal than I can from Synaptic.

yeah this is true, when I install or remove I do everything from command line, I do alot on command line, but a gui is nice to say just surf the web, write an email. I dont care what anyone says I'll take a gui text editor over nano or any other cli text editor..... sorry but thats when cli fails.

loell

January 8th, 2007, 10:16 AM

arrogance is not one sided , it can come from new forum members/ linux users too ;)
it is displayed through their rants , and thier non constructive critisms. :p

xyz

January 8th, 2007, 10:37 AM

Haven't read much arrogance here; esp. hardly any ever from "those who know" towards "those who don't"...so to speak.

Sometimes some folks have, say, "forgotten" how it was at the beginning and help/answers are a bit too short for beginners. BUT some beginners hardly do much searching by themselves.

Way too many exact same questions daily; this is probably because mods + "those who know" are a tad "too nice, understanding" towards beginners...so some seem to say to themselves: "Why search, I'll get an answer anyways!"

Perhaps the worst cases of arrogance I've witnessed here emanate from some beginners who wonder why learning the 1st letter of the alphabet doesn't make it possible for them to understand Shakespeare...so to speak.

This community is 99%-arrogance free; it's almost a shock to me to go from visiting this site to 'back-out-there-into-the-real-world'!

macogw

January 8th, 2007, 10:39 AM

yeah this is true, when I install or remove I do everything from command line, I do alot on command line, but a gui is nice to say just surf the web, write an email. I dont care what anyone says I'll take a gui text editor over nano or any other cli text editor..... sorry but thats when cli fails.
Ah, see, I'm a vim fan. I don't like IDE's that fill in the blanks. They get too cluttered. I don't use Eclipse for the same reason I don't use VB.

Yes, when it comes to computer stuff, he's an elitist a-hole. I think the Java is for wusses comment is similar to when the piano and flute teacher told a drum student's mother that he should try a "proper" instrument. His elitist thing is amusing to me though. I have anti-Mac comics around my desk and he's a Mac user. One of them is about Mac users being simpletons. I get him back. It did prompt me to study C instead of Python, though, and I'm glad for that. One of his friends suggested I "get down to the metal" and I like the idea of that (I want to learn to write drivers so I don't have to Google and see if it's supported before I buy it or return techie gifts I recieve, and so "sorry, not supported, go back to Windows" is something I say a bit less..I want to contribute to the hardware support because it makes life much easier when that stuff works), but languages like Java and Python are ill-suited to low-level stuff.

Oh, I did look at him funny when he checked his email in the terminal. But then, I dislike the idea of having email go to your computer instead of staying on a server somewhere, so I use webmail.

spockrock

January 8th, 2007, 10:47 AM

Ah, see, I'm a vim fan. I don't like IDE's that fill in the blanks. They get too cluttered. I don't use Eclipse for the same reason I don't use VB.

Yes, when it comes to computer stuff, he's an elitist a-hole. I think the Java is for wusses comment is similar to when the piano and flute teacher told a drum student's mother that he should try a "proper" instrument. His elitist thing is amusing to me though. I have anti-Mac comics around my desk and he's a Mac user. One of them is about Mac users being simpletons. I get him back. It did prompt me to study C instead of Python, though, and I'm glad for that. One of his friends suggested I "get down to the metal" and I like the idea of that (I want to learn to write drivers so I don't have to Google and see if it's supported before I buy it or return techie gifts I recieve, and so "sorry, not supported, go back to Windows" is something I say a bit less..I want to contribute to the hardware support because it makes life much easier when that stuff works), but languages like Java and Python are ill-suited to low-level stuff.

Oh, I did look at him funny when he checked his email in the terminal. But then, I dislike the idea of having email go to your computer instead of staying on a server somewhere, so I use webmail.

hmm...if you would like to get really low level use assembly, oh man, that can be really fun and terribly frustrating, but its really crappy because its different per architecture, obviously and sometimes per fpga boards where I did all my coding on assembly on.

macogw

January 11th, 2007, 08:49 AM

hmm...if you would like to get really low level use assembly, oh man, that can be really fun and terribly frustrating, but its really crappy because its different per architecture, obviously and sometimes per fpga boards where I did all my coding on assembly on.
Yeah, I've promised myself never to try going THAT low. Holy crap, does Assembly look scary. Tim can do it. I refuse to even attempt.

spockrock

January 11th, 2007, 09:32 AM

Yeah, I've promised myself never to try going THAT low. Holy crap, does Assembly look scary. Tim can do it. I refuse to even attempt.

its not really that bad, but doing loops is a little bit more different, and it can also be frustrating as well when things don't work,

MrHorus

January 11th, 2007, 11:34 AM

But then, I dislike the idea of having email go to your computer instead of staying on a server somewhere, so I use webmail.

And your reason for not using IMAP is...? :)

mips

January 11th, 2007, 02:58 PM

I hate the BSD forums, they are a bunch of arrogant jerks, I asked a simple question of, how do I configure my wireless card, and nearly all the responses were rude responses like,

I have not asked any questions on the BSD forums but I have venture into the irc channles and these are my experiences.

I have ventured into #freebsd & #openbsd on irc before with much trepidation. One person on #freebsd was offish towards me but the others told me not pay any attention to him.

I recently installed OpenBSD on my laptop and spent quite a bit of time in #openbsd, these guys I expected the least from (sorry). Everybody was nice and kind to me. They even had a sense of humour.

I must add that you don't go there and ask really stupid questions though. You are expected to read the documentation. The documentation is very good and if you follow it you should be fine. I only asked my questions after i read the docs and tried things like twice. The thing I really liked about #openbsd is how quiet that channel is and the help you get is very good, not 300 people screaming at once "me me me me". I've never been a fan of IRC but I must say i like the BSD channels.

So please give the BSD people a break ;)

mips

January 11th, 2007, 03:04 PM

Yeah, I've promised myself never to try going THAT low. Holy crap, does Assembly look scary. Tim can do it. I refuse to even attempt.

Assembly is not that bad, it's great for learning how a computer actually works and it is fun as mentioned above.

Get yourself a good book and learn it.

It was the second language I learned after BASIC on the 6502 architecture. Because I studied engineering we learned 8088, 8052, 68x00 & PIC assembly. Only other one we were taught was Turbo Pascal.

Eddie Wilson

January 11th, 2007, 03:24 PM

Where I have seen this more often than not is the fights people get into over the different distros. Some people seem to think that a persons os tells about his ideal of life. I have seen people talked down for not having a completely free distro. And I have also seen users talked down for having a completely free distro. My distro does not tell my views in life. I love computers and I love seeing what can be done with them. You won't go to hell for not using a distro that the FSF does not approve of. Nor will you go to heaven if you do. People do have a right to use their computers with whatever distro they want without being flamed for it. Just MHO.
Eddie

doobit

January 11th, 2007, 03:27 PM

I have seen newbees get upset and accuse someone of arrogance jsut because that peerson pointed them to a link with all of the info instead of answering directly.

mips

January 11th, 2007, 03:46 PM

I have seen newbees get upset and accuse someone of arrogance jsut because that peerson pointed them to a link with all of the info instead of answering directly.

Yip, some people love to be spoonfed.

G Morgan

January 11th, 2007, 04:03 PM

Can I give another thumbs up for learning ASM. To be clear to all the uninitiated. C and ASM are not ridiculously complex. They are very, very simple. The problems with using them are not a requirement of massive intelligence (though it certainly helps ;) ), the main requirement is mild insanity so that you can spend all those hours writing masses of boilerplate code and debugging.

Certainly though C is a good introduction to programming given that nearly all the popular languages use C-style syntax and ASM is the best thing for learning about computer architecture. It'll teach you why you should always map to memory at locations that are multiples of the size of the data elements and other quirks of x86.

I wouldn't recommend C or ASM outside of systems programming in 99% of cases though. There's a reason more lines of code are written in Java than any other language at the moment. It's very productive. A crucial point here which many programmers in OSS seem to forget:

Programmers Time >> Machine Time;

Essentially if you have a choice between halving development time or halving resource usage you should always half development time. If it is totally a non-starter then use better algorithms to improve efficiency first. If it still isn't good enough then profile your code and write the bottleneck sections in C or ASM.

A tip for anyone who wants to learn programming. Learn Vim, doesn't matter if its the CLI or GUI version. The learning curve maybe steep but the benefits are worth it in the end. Avoid Emacs like the plague unless you want deformed hands by the end of your programming career. I think RMS has underestimated just how many people are going to be calling him over RSIs. Hell they may rename RSIs, RMSs in honour of his work in helping create the most painful text editor ever.

OrangeCrate

January 11th, 2007, 07:48 PM

Yes, occassionally I've run into a few of those critters. I usually respond with one of these six choices:

1. If I'm looking at them square in the eyes, I just tell them to "get a haircut hippie!", and walk away.

2. Sometimes, I try to be disarming, and I try make a new friend, by complimenting them on their new propeller beenie.

3. In certain cases, the classic anatomically impossible phrase might be appropriate, and I have occassionally used it.

4. Once in a while, I may have deserved their response, whether I liked it or not, so I will quietly hang my head in shame, and try to learn from the exchange.

5. If I'm on a forum, and I genuinely feel that their response was inappropriate, and poor mannered, I can be very very "blunt" in my response to their post.

6. Ignore them, which is what I do most often.

saulgoode

January 11th, 2007, 07:52 PM

There is a surprising amount of arrogance inherent in calling someone arrogant.

MaXqUE

February 16th, 2007, 12:27 AM

Hello:

There is one good sign here. You are talking about this subject. So you've (we've) now gotten to square one.

I've been using Linux as a server operating system for about 10 years, so I'm no stranger to it. Linux is already a good network/server operating system. It isn't there yet as a desktop operating system, but its difficult to convince people just how far there is to go.

when LInux attempts to enter the desktop world it gains a whole other group of people who see things completely differently than the server people. This clash is clearly visible in the area of security.

Things which were exclusively the domain of root, have to be given user access (mounting removable drives for instance). Its a head on collision when it comes to multimedia because now you enter the area of kernel modules (audio in particular). These problems haven't yet been resolved.

I believe they will be **if** the Linux community can resist the need to win the "My OS is better than your OS" battle or war or discussion -- what ever you want to call it. So far, we aren't doing a very good job of removing ourselves from that discussion. More time and effort is wasted in these arguments or discussions than any other single issue. It is simply counter-productive. No one wins.

The only issue is how to make Linux the best operating system it can be. It isn't in competition with anything or anyone but itself. Linux doesn't need to emulate or imitate anything. It needs to invent itself ... it needs to look and feel like LInux. I don't think anyone can say what that look and feel is yet.

Cheers,
MaXqUE

Omnios

February 16th, 2007, 12:48 AM

Wait a minute windows does not teach you to make a .iso and over two years ago before I started using Ubuntu I never mande a .iso. Then again I put the .iso image stament together with the make an image in nero. Other than Ip config stuff I rarely used a terminal. On the other hand I had a lot of other computer experience. Before linux I knew of monitor settings after spending a week playing with X to get my monitor set up properly and many bug reports I understood how all the monitor stuff worked and what it stood for

Now an important aspect of this is.

Is the new Linux user computer illiterate

Is the new Linux user unfamiliar with the way things work.

Either way if the user is willing to do a lot of reading and take the time they will learn a hell of a lot either way compared to other os options.

Now over the last two years the Ubuntu Forums has been rated very newbie friendly with very little newbie bashing though there has been rare cases that where delt with quickly.

Linux is still a tecki Os but the learning materials are better available to everyone.

Ambimom

February 16th, 2007, 02:08 AM

MaXqUE you're absolutely 100 percent right!

I've been using Linux since July and have learned most of what I know from these forums. I have found some wonderfully patient people who have led me in the right direction 9 times out of 10.

I read these forums regularly and often find tips or ideas or solutions that I never would have thought of otherwise. But you are right, the desktop is not quite there yet but I'm confident that it will soon.

The great irony is that it is perfect for the almost computer illiterate, but most of those users aren't computer literate enough to get it to work...classic Catch-22. Case in point: codecs and sound cards. It took me weeks before I figured out I needed to get codecs; and another few weeks to learn how to use terminal edit and save commands before I could configure my sound card properly. But then, I'm fairly computer literate.

The Linux chauvinism of some is laughable; as is the general animosity toward Microsoft. My rule of thumb is whether the tool gets the task done in the best possible way.
I expect my computer to serve my needs; not vice versa. My computer is not my life; it enhances my life. I use Microsoft for some tasks, and Ubuntu for others.

As long as Linux is still not mainstream in the same way Apple and Microsoft are, too many printers, scanners, webcams, and microphones will require more configuring than most people are willing or able to perform. Clearly, Microsoft has the advantage because it is mainstream. But Linux will never become mainstream as long as people insist on sustaining it as a private enclave of secret knowledge for the worthy; and eschew things like GUIs, codecs and graphics.

Now thanks to Mark Shuttleworth's marketing genius, it's Ubuntu's turn to become mainstream. I for one, am delighted.

As for the need for an "adult" discussion.....what is stopping it? Ask your questions. Offer your advice. Water seeks its own level. Your compatriots will respond.

wersdaluv

February 16th, 2007, 02:18 AM

I think you both kind of have a point, to be honest.

On the one hand, elitism of any kind ("Silly new user, how dare you try to learn Linux when you can't even burn an ISO? Ha ha ha!") is a bad attitude.

On the other hand, you're lying to yourself if you imagine you can install and configure a Linux distro if you can't even figure out (through a Google search or whatnot) how to burn an ISO.

It's just an indicator that you're going to run into a lot of trouble later. You think things are tough learning how to burn an ISO? Well, just wait until you try to configure your X server or use ndiswrapper to get your wireless working.

You can view it as elitism or someone can express it as elitism if she wants to, but it's also the plain truth: if you can't figure out how to burn an ISO, your only hope in the world of Linux is to have a Linux expert friend who will install and configure it for you, or to buy Linux preinstalled from a vendor like System76 (http://www.system76.com).

Some of the "how to burn an ISO" guides I've found to be rather cryptic, so I created this one that I think any dummy can make sense of:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso

I still believe that there should be a Linux culture guide. I also asked how to burn an ISO because the Windows Culture does not demand you to use your head.

Until now, even if I was used to the Windows Culture, I am trying my best in adapting to this new way of doing things. It has been almost two months since I started using Linux and I spend much of my time for it. Right now, I have an opened tab on "Learning the Shell."

I believe that what we need here is more support to those who are willing to adapt. Yes, some people are supportive, but some are not.

The Windows Culture is just too different from the Linux Culture that when I never heard of Linux, I did not know how powerful Google was.

rai4shu2

February 16th, 2007, 02:50 AM

The "Linux attitude" is a myth and a lame excuse to slander an entire group of radically different individuals. Really, it's no different than racism. Enough already.

justaguynpc

February 16th, 2007, 02:57 AM

Simply put, I know that I have to keep in mind several points:

1.) Most people coming to linux are young, and quite often impatient.
2.) Most people coming to linux have no computer experience outside turning them on and surfing the internet
3.) Most people coming to linux have computers with pre-installed os's
4.) Most people coming to linux are caught up in having "what everyone else has or is getting"
5.) Often times people new to linux require "immediate-satisfaction" and are never to blame for their weaknesses

Members of the ubuntu community should remember:

1.) We are here to help, but we are not responsible for doing the leg work
2.) Hand-holding is not a requirement, we have the option of dis-engaging ourselves at anytime
3.) Escalating a non-productive situation is NOT helping
4.) We have to acknowledge the benefits of not participating (in a thread) where it may result in being counter-productive.

Just a few things I have to think about, maybe "you" do too.

Cheers

yabbadabbadont

February 16th, 2007, 04:20 AM

passonno

February 20th, 2007, 11:35 PM

Let me share this with you:

I posted this a minute ago in an old thread, where someone was asking how to recompile.

The tone and attitude of my post is harsh, but absolutely neccessary, when you face the arrogance of people who simply refuse to answer your specific question, instead offering their opinions as to what you should do.

Here goes(if you want to find the thread, search for my user name)

You know,

I don't think the previous poster was asking your opinion as to what you think he should do.

The poster was simply asking how to recompile his kernel, nothing more, and this is something that has been angeringme greatly on these forums.

Ubuntu rocks, I run it as my main/only os, BUT,

Ubuntu is the new kid in linux land, and though I appreciate it's simplicity installation, configuration, and operation, you must realize that Linux has been around for years.

Don't assume that every user is the same, or has the same needs.

Choice is supposed to be the main strength of Linux, yet we have people posting who learn a little bash scripting, do an apt-get command and are suddenly experts and are thus somehow self-empowered to provide "definitive" help to other users.

I mean, simply, if you don't know, shut up. If the best you can do is tell someone to do something else, contrary to their specific question, then shut up.

I first installed Slackware 10.0 in 2001/2, and with a tiny bit of help from a friend, was able to recompile my kernel in MINUTES!!!

WTF is so hard about telling someone what they want to know, or KEEPING YOUR MOUTH SHUT?!!

loell

February 21st, 2007, 02:55 AM

macogw

February 21st, 2007, 07:27 AM

A tip for anyone who wants to learn programming. Learn Vim, doesn't matter if its the CLI or GUI version. The learning curve maybe steep but the benefits are worth it in the end. Avoid Emacs like the plague unless you want deformed hands by the end of your programming career. I think RMS has underestimated just how many people are going to be calling him over RSIs. Hell they may rename RSIs, RMSs in honour of his work in helping create the most painful text editor ever.
In his defense, ctrl was where caps is now. For the sake of laughing at his refusal to move to something that doesn't hurt to type: he now dictates code because his hands are too messed up to type the code. I just wanna put esc where caps is cuz my esc key is all tiny on my laptop but putting it where tab is (where it used to be) would be annoying cuz i like tab

truthfatal

February 21st, 2007, 07:34 AM

I have seen a lot of arrogant users, and a few elitists.

No big deal to me. They're very ignoreable.

mediax

February 21st, 2007, 02:08 PM

The vote options are too limiting so I won't vote; I have seen arrogance, but not often. And it's definitely not what it's made up to be; some people with particular bad experiences love to paint the whole Linux community as a bunch of "elitist" jerks.

Totally agree - your experience mirrors mine, and I don't think the options offer a suitable response.

chavo

February 21st, 2007, 02:40 PM

I've been using Linux since 1998 and man it was way worse back then. I used to go to #linux and just hang out and hope someone had the same problem as me because I didn't have the guts to ask and get flamed. Good times!

Oh well so much for those days, we have Ubuntu now and have a channel full of helpful folks.

RTFM noob!

Catsworth

February 21st, 2007, 03:18 PM

Arrogance:

1. It works both ways:

How many times do you see a post from a user who has used Windows for many years, can't get something done in Ubuntu, and then starts to get uppity when either a) he/she doesn't get an answer straight away, b) the answer is slightly too technical for them to understand, c) they 'can't be bothered with all that command line stuff and just want it to work', or d) people point them at a page where they can read about their problem rather than just handing the answer to them on a plate? It's not just Linux users that have the propensity to be arrogant, it's inherent in all of us.

2. It's a subjective assessment depending on your point of view:

What is arrogant to one person may not be to someone else. In the past I've seen people obviously expending a lot of time and thought trying to help another user, only to be described as 'elitist', or 'arrogant', or then having the user start to make demands of their time that they can't meet ('It's been x hours, are you still helping me or not' was my favourite post I ever saw).
Sometimes (admittedly not here, because I'm still a n00b myself) I've seen posts that I can help people out with, and have done, but for a problem that's been covered a million times - sometimes the wording of my advice reflects my frustration that people have apparently not bothered to help themselves and I've been accused of being arrogant/unhelpful/etc when that was never my intention.

3. It's a mirror:

Labelling someone as 'arrogant' without any attempt to try to understand their motivations is (at best) arrogant in and of itself.

manmower

February 21st, 2007, 03:29 PM

The vote options are too limiting so I won't vote; I have seen arrogance, but not often. And it's definitely not what it's made up to be; some people with particular bad experiences love to paint the whole Linux community as a bunch of "elitist" jerks.

This would have been my answer until recently. Lately I am starting to get fed up though with the constant negative comments about other operating systems and companies (esp. Microsoft and Windows). These are certainly not coming from the most experienced users so it is probably not the 'elite' the OP was referring to, in fact they seem particularly prevalent among newer Linux users. This is probably the worst kind of arrogance I have witnessed in the Linux community.

Before someone starts digging through my posts looking for incriminating evidence: yes I have voiced my negative opinion of a certain hardware/software vendor here a few times. But only when asked for my opinion, and I always took the trouble to at least spell their name correctly and not make some unfunny pun out of it.

kazuya

February 21st, 2007, 03:40 PM

the poll needs almost two more options. Life's choicxes are not always about yes or no; There is always a middle ground. In Ubuntu, Xandros, pclinuxos, and some of the other very user firendly distros, this subject is nulled. But, even in the high powered distros , they guys are pretty helpful as well.

It all comes down to what you get out of them and what you give back.

I use many other distros separate from Ubuntu, but the community here is overwhelmingly friendly an impartial to what you use. The folks are about helping you and when they can't redirecting you.

The attitude here makes me want to contribute, help, and keep using their product. To date, Ubuntu is the easiest distro in my opinion to manage and get working for a total newbie. Pclinuxos has some weak points. There the community is very helpful as well and responsive. As is Xandros, Mepis. Zenwalk is relatively very good also in community help, Vector is very very good., and many more.

Sabayon which is gentoo-based has some ridiculously helpful devs and users with patience. Gentoo is not easy to get into for newbies, but they made my ascension easy.

Linux users are humans as such, you would find good, bad, and middle ground. Even you and I all have our inner elitism inside that we are not aware we show until confronted about it.

I say take the good and discard the negative. When you stumble on the cool folks, keep them in mind. Great helpful folks are irreplaceable. There are many great folks here from all over the world that I would never meet in person, but through this distro and the linux movement and community, we are brought together.

That is destiny. We are all tied in this Web. I would eternally be grateful to those guys, known and unknowned whose great works paved the way for my PC knowledge growth and free computing edication on one of the best platform OSes in the Earth.

Ripfox

May 19th, 2007, 08:20 PM

"To start press any key. Where's the any key?"

steven8

May 19th, 2007, 08:46 PM

"To start press any key. Where's the any key?"

Arrogant b*****d!

BLTicklemonster

May 19th, 2007, 11:19 PM

"To start press any key. Where's the any key?"

To the left of the meeny, miney, and moe buttons, duh.

Ripfox

May 20th, 2007, 03:01 PM

Just a quote from homer...thought I'd lighten up the mood here...:)

BLTicklemonster

May 20th, 2007, 04:11 PM

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=449227 <---imagine that.

loell

May 20th, 2007, 04:24 PM

lol , your not a victim of arrogance ;)

it just so happen that you got caught between gnome and kde war, thats all :popcorn:

ticopelp

May 20th, 2007, 04:27 PM

Using Linux does require a will to learn and a certain amount of technical know-how. Fortunately, that know-how is very easy to pick up in the information age, but the user has to be willing to learn. The vast majority of the unhappy threads I see on this forum seem to come from users who expect the OS to "just work" without them having to learn anything new, or expect their user experience to be exactly the same as another OS (usually Windows). That's not reality, and all the grousing about "normal" users, for good or ill, won't change that.

As has been said numerous times before, I think the "you shouldn't be learning Linux if you can't do thus and so" is a bad attitude to have and poor form to say. But that Linux requires the user pick up a certain amount of technical expertise is a pretty unescapable truth.

BLTicklemonster

May 20th, 2007, 04:56 PM

I thought it was arrogant of him to jump to conclusions.

And I still have the kubuntu splash screen!!!

:)

ticopelp

May 20th, 2007, 05:01 PM

I thought it was arrogant of him to jump to conclusions.

And I still have the kubuntu splash screen!!!

:)

I'll admit, that took me by surprise. What a completely uncalled-for reaction.

Ripfox

May 20th, 2007, 05:36 PM

Yea...someone forgot to drink their Ovaltine that morning...

BLTicklemonster

May 20th, 2007, 06:17 PM

Apparently I stepped into a warzone in the first place. I meant for the name of the thread to be kind of light hearted and humourous, but apparently it was not taken that way.

Now the thread's closed, and the link placed there, unless I have to read all the way through it, isn't about putting my ubuntu splash screen back.

I'd as soon have my own custom splash screen anyway, maybe I'll find a thread on that one day.

mikewhatever

May 20th, 2007, 08:08 PM

I thought it was arrogant of him to jump to conclusions.

And I still have the kubuntu splash screen!!!

:)

Check this out http://strabes.wordpress.com/2007/02/17/change-bootsplash-images-in-ubuntu/

ICUR2Ys

May 20th, 2007, 11:14 PM

I am new to linux to months. First off the thoughts that I was expressing to my friends before I started reading is that I think that the people who monitor these threads and give of them selves to help strangers must have hearts of gold.

I noticed that many of the arguments here ended being someone saying what they believed, and another responding to what they thought that they meant. Not necessarily the same. I noticed that arrogance was the word, that statements were attributed as being. I do know that in my personal experience I might get asked basically the same question by 4 people and help the first three but the forth uses terminology that I have developed a hot button to and I might give a smart response. So multiple adjectives could be used to describe a response. Arrogance, frustration, irritation, and principle.
We don't know what frustrations any given newbie might be faced with when they say linux isn't ready for the desktop. And the other side of the same coin is rtfm or come back later your not ready for linux.

Again, I think you guys have hearts of gold! But I personally gotten the help that I would have liked lol.