Some screenshots of what KDE4 will look like

[ComplexNumber]

http://dot.kde.org/1167723426/

quite an improvement.

[Kimm]

I love to see how KDE4 is going along... I might move to KDE when it gets released!

[Lster]

I never used to like KDE...

Recently, however, I think KDE is catching up to GNOME and will maybe surpass it soon. Anyhow, I think KDE is becoming very good indeed, now and I will definately try it when it comes out.

I may even switch from GNOME if I find it is as fast as they claim... and those screenshots are very nice :D

[qalimas]

As an everyday KDE user, I can not wait until KDE4 is finally released =D

It looks beautiful =)

[kuja]

I was just looking at this last night :) KDE is looking sexier than ever :D

[earobinson]

neat

[GeneralZod]

Fresh from svn this morning:

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde4-svn-03-01-07.png

(running in Xephyr)

:)

[ahaslam]

It looks much better than 3.5. Though I generally dislike KDE, I will be interested to give it a fair trial upon release.

I guess it'll be a while untill we know about the resource requriements (looks like it may be it's downfall).

Tony.

[Mateo]

Will never use it until they stop calling their programs K-something.

[ahaslam]

So what about the G-somethings?

[maniacmusician]

yeah, it's quite something, isn't it? I love that they're using SVG's, everything looks a lot better. I always hated how those games looked like crap. The new run command dialog is pretty great too. I can't wait.

[bastiegast]

Finally! Some screens, ive been waiting for this a long time. Currently using gnome but I sort of feel like being stuck with gnome and its sluggy nautilus / metacity which frustrate me to no end until KDE starts improving their looks


Will never use it until they stop calling their programs K-something.

Forgot to mention, until they do something about that but I can bear it as KDE4 seems to become quite cool and they seem to be dropping this naming scheme slightly (oxygen, plasma etc.)

[GeneralZod]

I guess it'll be a while untill we know about the resource requriements (looks like it may be it's downfall).


I don't see why: the switch to Qt4 apparently gives substantial gains in terms of memory use and speed for every application, and KDE has always been far lighter on resources (http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/) than people give it credit for. However, KDE 4.0 is likely to be a beast, as there will be tons of new, untested, and unoptimised stuff in there. It will be interesting to see the memory usage come, say, KDE 4.2.



Forgot to mention, until they do something about that but I can bear it as KDE4 seems to become quite cool and they seem to be dropping this naming scheme slightly (oxygen, plasma etc.)

Yeah, the "official" KDE apps are gradually moving away from the K-naming scheme (e.g. "KPDF(?)" -> "Ligature", etc), but the KDE guys obviously have limited control over third-party projects (none of mine will begin with "K", though - that's a promise ;)).

I'm always amazed by the fact that some people vow never to even try a neat piece of technology that thousands of people have poured their heart and soul into solely on the basis that many of the apps begin with "K" - it just seems so very petty, to me. Oh well :)

[v8YKxgHe]

I am probably going to switch to KDE4 when it's released, can't wait until it is!

[earobinson]

Fresh from svn this morning:

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde4-svn-03-01-07.png

(running in Xephyr)

:)
What did you install to get xephry running I have it installed but the command dont work :(

[GeneralZod]

What did you install to get xephry running I have it installed but the command dont work :(



Xephyr :1&


should work; what errors are you getting?

Oh, and I had to do something very naughty - I did



xhost +


which is not good from a security point of view. Don't do this unless you know what you're doing, kids!

[GeneralZod]

Oh, while I'm at it - people getting excited by the thought of KDE 4.0.0 should probably read this, to save themselves a little bit of disappointment:

http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/2600

[maniacmusician]

saw that off of a feed of some kde site, good advice :)

Since you're recommending not to do xhost +, do you mind doing a bit of teaching and saying what it does and why people shouldnt do it?

[GeneralZod]

s
Since you're recommending not to do xhost +, do you mind doing a bit of teaching and saying what it does and why people shouldnt do it?

That would be something of a case of "the blind leading the blind", but as I understand it: X has a built-in feature that stops unauthorised people connecting to it, and "xhost +" disables this feature. I'm not sure what the repercussions of this are; I'd imagine that, if one is behind a firewall, it would make no difference. But I feel safer giving everyone stern warnings against it, just in case ;)

[ahaslam]

I don't see why: the switch to Qt4 apparently gives substantial gains in terms of memory use and speed for every application, and KDE has always been far lighter on resources (http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/) than people give it credit for. However, KDE 4.0 is likely to be a beast, as there will be tons of new, untested, and unoptimised stuff in there. It will be interesting to see the memory usage come, say, KDE 4.2.

I'm sure that's assuming your hardware is good enough. That extra eyecandy will no doubt cause performance worries for us with integrated graphics and old CPU's.

It's not all about RAM ;)

That being said, I should have a new PC by then, so bring it on 8)

Tony.

[GeneralZod]

I'm sure that's assuming your hardware is good enough. That extra eyecandy will no doubt cause performance worries for us with integrated graphics and old CPU's.

It's not all about RAM ;)

That being said, I should have a new PC by then, so bring it on 8)

Tony.

Based on Beryl's performance on my Intel Integrated, I don't think we have that much to worry about :) Honestly, I don't think the CPU is the bottleneck for either GNOME or KDE nowadays: my mum used to run KDE 3.4 on her 700MHz laptop, and it barely taxed it at all. Given that more and more of the burden on the CPU is being offloaded onto the GPU, and that this burden is, from the GPU's point of view, much easier than running, say, Quake 3, I think that speed of rendering will actually become less and less of an issue as time goes by.

RAM, on the other hand, is a different matter - while extra features will only slow things down when that particular feature is actively running on the CPU, these extra features will increase the memory footprint from the point at which they are loaded to the point at which they are unloaded, so I suspect that as time goes on and desktops become more functional, RAM/ swap usage will be the thing to watch. Who knows, though? :)

[bastiegast]

I don't see why: the switch to Qt4 apparently gives substantial gains in terms of memory use and speed for every application, and KDE has always been far lighter on resources (http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/) than people give it credit for. However, KDE 4.0 is likely to be a beast, as there will be tons of new, untested, and unoptimised stuff in there. It will be interesting to see the memory usage come, say, KDE 4.2.


I thought KDE 4 was gonna be all about faster and lighter?

[ComplexNumber]

I thought KDE 4 was gonna be all about faster and lighter?
its all about trying to keep up with gnome.

[qalimas]

its all about trying to keep up with gnome.

Why do you turn every possible KDE thread into one against GNOME? No one cares, KDE users use KDE, GNOME users use GNOME. We ALL use Linux, that is what matters.

[ComplexNumber]

Why do you turn every possible KDE thread into one against GNOME? No one cares, KDE users use KDE, GNOME users use GNOME. We ALL use Linux, that is what matters.
i forgot this: ":p j/k"

------------------

the future system monitor for kde could definitely need a bit of a redesign, though. rather than having a solid block of colour, this is unnecessary as it tends to make the reading not as clear as it should be.......and should be reduced to a simple line

[mips]

Why do you turn every possible KDE thread into one against GNOME? No one cares, KDE users use KDE, GNOME users use GNOME. We ALL use Linux, that is what matters.

Just ignore him, we all know he hates kde and mentions something to the effect every opportunity he gets, just look at his track record.

I could care less about which DE you use, to each their own.

Edit: Smiley is late.

[Frak]

Sweet, all I'll have to do is upgrade to Fiesty.

[qalimas]

i forgot this: ":p j/k"

------------------

the future system monitor for kde could definitely need a bit of a redesign, though. rather than having a solid block of colour, this is unnecessary as it tends to make the reading not as clear as it should be.......and should be reduced to a simple line (a la gnome).

Then please accept my apologies =)

With the system monitor... bleh, I prefer htop over all else, nice, simple, clean.

[Erunno]

There was a nice post on osnews which I can't find right now but it basically (and probably rightfully) said that GNOME and KDE have diametrically opposed approaches to dekstop development: While GNOME concentrated on GUI design and HIG first and now trys to build a solid technical foundation for it KDE did it the other way around and created a highly thought-out framework for integrated applications. He came to the conclusion that it will be probably easier to impose HIG on a technically superior framework than the other way around.

So, what will have GNOME going for it once KDE sorts out the interface issues some people seem to have with it? As far as I know HIG seem to be one of the major cornerstones of KDE 4 and extensive testing is being done to ensure valid results.

Although maybe not fully featuered I hope that KDE 4.0 will at least be stable and show some of the non-technical improvements right from the beginning. The development cycle lasted long enough one might think :D

[IYY]

I don't really see the improvement.

[Mateo]

So what about the G-somethings?

don't think I use any of those except gedit and gparted! i can live with it! i know when i'm browsing the repos, everything that runs on KDE starts with K. That'd get boring and annoying fast!

[qalimas]

don't think I use any of those except gedit and gparted! i can live with it! i know when i'm browsing the repos, everything that runs on KDE starts with K. That'd get boring and annoying fast!
Gaim?

I know the website says it doesn't stand for anything, but did it not used to stand for something along the lines of GTK or GNOME AIM? The icons look like it may have, kinda like the K in KDE used to stand for something =/

I'm not entirely sure, just thoughts floating around in my head...

[riven0]

As nice as KDE 4 is looking right now, I probably won't be picking it up until they start steering away from the Windowish looks.
Yeah, I know, you can customize it all you want, but first impressions mean a lot; I remember when I first installed KDE and took a look at the "start" menu... I was back to Gnome within 10 minutes...

[Frak]

Gaim?

I know the website says it doesn't stand for anything, but did it not used to stand for something along the lines of GTK or GNOME AIM? The icons look like it may have, kinda like the K in KDE used to stand for something =/

I'm not entirely sure, just thoughts floating around in my head...
K stands for Kool, as in Kool Desktop Enviroment, KDE.

[teejay17]

I don't see why: the switch to Qt4 apparently gives substantial gains in terms of memory use and speed for every application, and KDE has always been far lighter on resources (http://ktown.kde.org/%7Eseli/memory/) than people give it credit for. However, KDE 4.0 is likely to be a beast, as there will be tons of new, untested, and unoptimised stuff in there. It will be interesting to see the memory usage come, say, KDE 4.2.I was wondering the same thing: how resource intensive the new version is compared to now (because now is already pretty resource heavy).


I'm always amazed by the fact that some people vow never to even try a neat piece of technology that thousands of people have poured their heart and soul into solely on the basis that many of the apps begin with "K" - it just seems so very petty, to me. Oh well :)I think it's much less superficial than that; I believe much of the prejudice stems from the fact that KDE began its life as proprietary software, much like Firefox (and you get those who really dislike that programme for the same reason).

[ComplexNumber]

K stands for Kool, as in Kool Desktop Enviroment, KDE.
it did, initially. they realised the stupidity of the idea not long afterwards :p.
btw thats actually 100% true.

[qalimas]

it did, initially. they realised the stupidity of the idea not long afterwards :p.
btw thats actually 100% true.

Thank God they took it out, too... Kool Desktop Environment? As a KDE lover, I still find that.... bleh!

But as pointed, I thought Gaim did the same thing KDE did, dropped the whole this stands for something bit... but I really don't know, it was only an out of the air guess :-D

[Mateo]

Gaim?

I know the website says it doesn't stand for anything, but did it not used to stand for something along the lines of GTK or GNOME AIM? The icons look like it may have, kinda like the K in KDE used to stand for something =/

I'm not entirely sure, just thoughts floating around in my head...

ha!, i never even thought about that.

[ComplexNumber]

the 'k' in kde now stands for just 'k'. the "kool" part was abandoned shortly after conception.
gnome, likewise, is often referred to as just Gnome rather than GNOME because the corba part has long since been abandoned (thank god!)




But as pointed, I thought Gaim did the same thing KDE did, dropped the whole this stands for something bit... but I really don't know, it was only an out of the air guessit used to stand for Gnome AIM...until AIM took a disliking to the idea and legally threatened (i'm not too sure of the extent or the means, but i know that AIM at least politely asked for a change of name...or else) the developers....causing a change from GAIM to Gaim.

[Steveire]

http://www.kde.org/announcements/announcement.php

Don't worry: aisiu will be along shortly to merge this thread with the KDE vs Gnome one. Then no one will be able to tell the difference again and there'll be no need for smilies.

A lot of k-apps seem to be planning to drop that convention, but it will still be KOffice2.0 anyway...

[Mateo]

Well my primary concern is... why are there so many "K" apps anyways? It doesn't seem like very many of the applications I use in gnome are just for gnome. Why are all KDE applications just for KDE?

[darkhatter]

Well my primary concern is... why are there so many "K" apps anyways? It doesn't seem like very many of the applications I use in gnome are just for gnome. Why are all KDE applications just for KDE?

](*,) ](*,) kde puts a k in front of all their apps so you know that its part of KDE, and unless you booted up linux yesterday you know that all kde programs can be run in gnome, xfce, etc.

[Mateo]

^^ sorry, didn't explain myself well, I guess. I wasn't implying that K apps only work with KDE. I'm saying why do they make all of their own apps? Why are all of their apps "part of KDE"? Why not just bundle non-DE specific applications.

[prizrak]

It's probably been posted already but that looks almost exactly like Vista (if it's glassy)/XP

[darkhatter]

^^ sorry, didn't explain myself well, I guess. I wasn't implying that K apps only work with KDE. I'm saying why do they make all of their own apps? Why are all of their apps "part of KDE"? Why not just bundle non-DE specific applications.

I have no idea why they do that, super karamba wasn't always part of kde they added it to the main tree after it got really popular so maybe thats how all the apps start...

[kuja]

Mateo, it's mostly for speed/efficiency reasons. If you only have to load one set of libraries, it uses less memory, and the app will start a bit faster. It also provides a uniform look & feel.

From as far as I can gather, it looks like if the new SVG stuff causes a hit anywhere, it will be when you decide to resize a window, but I guess that isn't so bad.

[ButteBlues]

I installed the snapshot from the kubuntu repo.

How did you get rid of the annoying "dbus couldn't be started" error?

[EdThaSlayer]

KDE is really starting to look good. I might try it and if I like it become a KDE type of guy. The SVG rendering looks neat!

[Magnes]

Well, I don't like KDE mainly for it's look and KDE4 for me just doesn't look better. But I hope it'll be fast because I use many of KDE apps on my Gnome. :)

[ffi]

Well, I don't like KDE mainly for it's look and KDE4 for me just doesn't look better. But I hope it'll be fast because I use many of KDE apps on my Gnome. :)

Now if someone made a qt-gtk-engine, like there is already a gtk-qt-engine so you can enjoy all the lovely gtk2.0 in KDE or at least port ubuntu-looks to a kde style....

[ffi]

^^ sorry, didn't explain myself well, I guess. I wasn't implying that K apps only work with KDE. I'm saying why do they make all of their own apps? Why are all of their apps "part of KDE"? Why not just bundle non-DE specific applications.

I guess this is for integration, eg you can have a mac style menu bar in kde with kde apps....

[DigitalDuality]

d

[darkhatter]

catching up to Gnome? lol that's a good one.

I was thinking the same thing but I resisted it, if we leave her/him alone hopefully he/she will go away

[ComplexNumber]

I was thinking the same thing but I resisted it, if we leave her/him alone hopefully he/she will go away
kde is behind gnome in far more ways than the reverse. apart from kio-slaves and kparts, what else in kde is 'ahead' of gnome?
how about svg support? current development of dbus and galago throughout the desktop? cairo/authur? search(ie beagle)? gstreamer and general sound server support? HIG? tango/oxygen? hal? and the list goes on and on and on......
btw we're talking about elements that both desktops share or are due to share, so please don't come out with ridiculous and laughable 'counter' arguments that people such as sushi et al have in the past such as "well, kde has kwin. gnome doesn't".

[DigitalDuality]

d

[ComplexNumber]

i dunno.. how about.. resource utilization of the desktop?
http://ktown.kde.org/~seli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html (http://ktown.kde.org/%7Eseli/memory/desktop_benchmark.html)

How about window drawing quickly? or the speed in which apps open (which ubuntu is rather slow at anyways regardless of DE), but gnome more so than KDE.

Eye candy (non beryl/compiz eye candy i mean).

KDE is simply just loaded with features that gnome simply doesn't have. The integration between apps makes the system smooth as hell. It has stolen the best from Windows and OS X, and even Gnome.. and innovated on their own to make one slick DE.

Gnome just seems clunky, slow, and it underminds the user.. but that's just perception.
please refer to what i've written after "btw". much of what you're saying ignores the difference in phlilosphies between the desktops and is akin to saying "kde is more configurable, therefore its better". that doesn't count.
many peoples experiences with speed (including reports from Linux Format and others) suggest that the reality in speed is different to what you believe.

[lyceum]

The first game is like moving from the NES to the SNES and the second looks like it came from Vista. I am more excited about how much of my ram this is going to take up, but it does look VERY nice. :D

[darkhatter]

:( the flamewar starts, only a matter of time before the merge happy admin gets his hands on this

[ErikTheRed]

I think it's a little hard to judge KDE4 at this point considering it's not finished and from what I've read the themes are still from the current stable version of KDE, they haven't imported the new artwork yet.

[riven0]

many peoples experiences with speed (including reports from Linux Format and others) suggest that the reality in speed is different to what you believe.

I would agree with that. Personally, I found no speed difference between KDE and Gnome, which is why I don't understand what people are talking about when they say KDE is less resource hungry.

[DC@DR]

I will just simply stick with GNOME, but I'd love to see KDE's appearance getting better, it could help to get more users who love look&feel stuff switch to Linux ;-)

[srirammurali]

man... KDE rocks... I might move away totally from gnome :cool:

[WiseElben]

Hum, I really don't see why it's so much more "beautiful." I'm not saying that KDE can be made beautiful, as I used KDE before, and through a lot of customization, I finally made it look elegant, but those screenshots are, in my opinion, not beautiful nor elegant. Just because they can use SVG's now doesn't make an environment better, as it often would make it more bloated and slow. True, I haven't tried it yet, and I'm not being very objective, but those are my opinions.

Here are some screenshots of my old KDE-based system: http://wiseelben.com/pictures/moonlight

Awesome looking, right? Yet it is not as elegant as my current gnome setup.

[Erunno]

Hum, I really don't see why it's so much more "beautiful." I'm not saying that KDE can be made beautiful, as I used KDE before, and through a lot of customization, I finally made it look elegant, but those screenshots are, in my opinion, not beautiful nor elegant. Just because they can use SVG's now doesn't make an environment better, as it often would make it more bloated and slow. True, I haven't tried it yet, and I'm not being very objective, but those are my opinions.

Here are some screenshots of my old KDE-based system: http://wiseelben.com/pictures/moonlight

Awesome looking, right? Yet it is not as elegant as my current gnome setup.

Contrary to Firefox and OpenOffice applications like Konqueror and KOffice are native to KDE and therefore share libraries already loaded into memory. If nothing else it makes KDE less memory consuming as long as you stay in the QT/KDE world. There's been also some interesting benchmarks (http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2006/10/benchmarks.html) about the rendering performance between arthur (granted, it will be used in KDE4) and cairo and cairo seems to be so far behind that it's almost not funny anymore (or quite funny, depending on where you stand in the great DE war).

As one can see on the new screenshots the new artwork hasn't been yet implemented in KDE 4.0 (like Oxygen icons) as the core libraries seem to be still under heavy development.

I'm really looking forward into seeing some of the HIG the KDE developers have worked on in the recent months as it will be the most visible changes to the end user beside the new graphical capabilities.

[bastiegast]

Contrary to Firefox and OpenOffice applications like Konqueror and KOffice are native to KDE and therefore share libraries already loaded into memory. If nothing else it makes KDE less memory consuming as long as you stay in the QT/KDE world. There's been also some interesting benchmarks (http://zrusin.blogspot.com/2006/10/benchmarks.html) about the rendering performance between arthur (granted, it will be used in KDE4) and cairo and cairo seems to be so far behind that it's almost not funny anymore (or quite funny, depending on where you stand in the great DE war).

As one can see on the new screenshots the new artwork hasn't been yet implemented in KDE 4.0 (like Oxygen icons) as the core libraries seem to be still under heavy development.

I'm really looking forward into seeing some of the HIG the KDE developers have worked on in the recent months as it will be the most visible changes to the end user beside the new graphical capabilities.

Good points, oh wait here comes ComplexNumber he's gonna strike back :o
*takes a seat and grabs popcorn*

[Tux Aubrey]

I had read somewhere that something called "The Portland Project" was supposed to do away with a lot of the underlying differences between KDE and Gnome - I assume that means common libraries 'n stuff rather than eye-candy/look-and-feel. Is that right?

I also understood that a lot of the rivalry between the developer camps had subsided (leaving it to you guys, I guess).

Can someone enlighten me?

(I am currnetly open minded on DE stuff - but enjoying Fluxbox more than the others)

[ComplexNumber]

Good points, oh wait here comes ComplexNumber he's gonna strike back :o
*takes a seat and grabs popcorn*
a sedative with that popcorn, sir?


i found Erunno's viewpoint rather entertaining. its basically like saying: "hey! look at the benchmarks of vista service pack 2 compared to linux and compiz/beryl. the difference in speed isn't even funny anymore". the argument fails flat on its face because cairo(ie beryl/compiz in the analogy) is the here and now, and is constantly progressing. arthur in kde(ie vista service pack 2 in the analogy) is nowt but a twinkling in the eye of the kde user.

[Erunno]

Unlike Vista SP2 Arthur exists already in QT4 and is freely available for anybody interested in doing development work with the QT framework and although it isn't available for the current KDE 3.5 line the cairo developers would have to make some major optimizations to their libraries to close that gap. Plus, I'd need to see some proof first that rendering in QT3 is actually slower than cairo ;)

And mind explaining what comiz/beryl have to do with anything ? I haven't used either but as far as I understand they are DE independant replacements for kwin/metacity.

[ComplexNumber]

Unlike Vista SP2 Arthur exists already in QT4quite true. but, similarly to vista service pack 2, kde4 isn't available to the general public yet except as a snapshot for developers. what i'm getting at is that by the time that kde 4 is finally released, cairo will have progressed an unknown amount. therefore, they can't be realistically compared with any practicality. the only practical means of comparison is the here and now - ie cairo is used in gnome, but arthur is not currently used in kde.



And mind explaining what comiz/beryl have to do with anything ?it was an analogy (ie arthur in kde equals the beryl/compiz equivalent in vista service pack 2(ie not here yet), whereas cairo in gnome equates to compiz/beryl in linux(ie is whats here now))

[darkhatter]

I've seen way to many tests that say kde is faster and lighter on resources, is there any articles that say differently its nice to see things from both sides

[teejay17]

I had read somewhere that something called "The Portland Project" was supposed to do away with a lot of the underlying differences between KDE and Gnome - I assume that means common libraries 'n stuff rather than eye-candy/look-and-feel. Is that right?

I also understood that a lot of the rivalry between the developer camps had subsided (leaving it to you guys, I guess).

Can someone enlighten me?

(I am currnetly open minded on DE stuff - but enjoying Fluxbox more than the others)
That would be nice; I hope it works. Flaming each other, when everyone is seemingly on the same page (Linux, FOSS, etc.) just seems like a wasted effort. Instead of tearing each other down, go do something constructive, like the Portland Project!
(I know, I know, I'm corny...)

[Frak]

I've seen way to many tests that say kde is faster and lighter on resources, is there any articles that say differently its nice to see things from both sides
It's faster and ligter to me, compared to FF on GNOME, Konqueror opens in a split second on my KDE dedicated one, GNOME is slower than KDE for me.

[total wormage]

although i love svg, i don't like the way they use it in the screenshots i've seen...., i'm hoping this will be editable to my own taste (or not, so i have another reason to stay i xfce ;]])
(and i hope one day KDE will change it's iconset to something less KDE-ish)

haven't read much about KDE4, but i'm definitely going to try it :-#

[Tomosaur]

although i love svg, i don't like the way they use it in the screenshots i've seen...., i'm hoping this will be editable to my own taste (or not, so i have another reason to stay i xfce ;]])
(and i hope one day KDE will change it's iconset to something less KDE-ish)

haven't read much about KDE4, but i'm definitely going to try it :-#

I agree. Everything in KDE just seems 'branded' to me. There's no real chance to 'forget' that you're using KDE. Even Windows isn't as in-your-face about that. I also dislike the 'K<whatever>' naming convention which KDE perpetuates. Gnome just sits there and works - I don't like KDE vying for my attention every time I click something.

[maniacmusician]

It's faster and ligter to me, compared to FF on GNOME, Konqueror opens in a split second on my KDE dedicated one, GNOME is slower than KDE for me.
Varies from person to person....They're about the same for me, but I prefer KDE. I love konqui but it just doesn't cut it for me, so I have to stick to firefox...and it's a huge memory hog, looks a little ugly (in KDE, and in my personal opinion; no flames) but I love the extensions I use, and I actually use them.

Tests that say one is faster than the other are usually biased in some ways. Speed depends on many things; what you install, how many things you install, what services you keep running, etc etc. There's no definitive answer or final line on this. However I have noticed the following when running linux on a slow school computer;

-KDE takes more RAM than Gnome to get an efficient base installation running nicely, but it utilizes extra RAM very efficiently
-Gnome takes less RAM to initially get running at a decent speed, but I find that programs like Nautilus get incredibly slow for me after a while no matter how much RAM I have.

I like both DEs but I spend more time in KDE, because it just provides a better workflow for me.

[Erunno]

although i love svg, i don't like the way they use it in the screenshots i've seen...., i'm hoping this will be editable to my own taste (or not, so i have another reason to stay i xfce ;]])

Hey, it's KDE you are talking about ! ;)


(and i hope one day KDE will change it's iconset to something less KDE-ish)

These are not the icons that will be used in the final KDE 4.0 release. Have a look at the new icon theme here (http://oxygen-icons.org/).

[gruffy-06]

Impressive animations.

But it's still KDE3 at heart.

[Erunno]

Impressive animations.

But it's still KDE3 at heart.

Quite the contrary. The underlying frameworks received a major overhaul (many being written from scratch), the widget toolkit changed from QT3 to 4, the default icon set is new, human interface guidlines are being developed, etc. (check Planet KDE for ongoing information about the development process). KDE 4 is a major break from the KDE 3 line both technology-wise and (hopefully) interface-wise.

[teejay17]

These are not the icons that will be used in the final KDE 4.0 release. Have a look at the new icon theme here (http://oxygen-icons.org/).
Does anyone know if this new “Oxygen” set of icons will be made available for Gnome? Will there be a way to port them into Gnome when they are finished?

[total wormage]

These are not the icons that will be used in the final KDE 4.0 release. Have a look at the new icon theme here (http://oxygen-icons.org/).

ahhh.. thanks for that link :]]
looks promising :] :KS

[GeneralZod]

Does anyone know if this new “Oxygen” set of icons will be made available for Gnome? Will there be a way to port them into Gnome when they are finished?

They're simple SVGs, so I see no reason why not :) Of course, a subset of the icons are designed specifically for KDE apps (I can't imagine the GNOME community would have much use for the KNotes, Kolf or Konqueror (http://etotheipiplusone.com/oxygen.png) icons ;)) but a lot are more generic and platform-neutral (MIME-types, etc) and these should be directly usable by GNOME, no porting required.

[ComplexNumber]

They're simple SVGs, so I see no reason why not :) Of course, a subset of the icons are designed specifically for KDE apps (I can't imagine the GNOME community would have much use for the KNotes, Kolf or Konqueror (http://etotheipiplusone.com/oxygen.png) icons ;)) but a lot are more generic and platform-neutral (MIME-types, etc) and these should be directly usable by GNOME, no porting required.
i see no reasons why not either. tango works on both gnome and kde(even though the icons look crap on kde due to its relatively poor svg facilities). they both work on gnome and kde due to a package called icon-naming-utils, so maybe oxygen will utilise the same.

[teejay17]

Thanks for the info.
P.S. I like Gnome and KDE equally, and I think they both have their strengths.

[ixus_123]

I like the intergration between apps in KDE - easpecially the Kontact suit thing. I can't stand the look of KDE though. To me it has always seemed cluttered.

I'd love to give it a try if a decent liveCD comes out. All I really want from a DE are a system wide spell check & a system wide address book - kind of like teh ones mac osX has. That & an easy way to use a lighter file manager like Thunar.

[Terracotta]

I like the intergration between apps in KDE - easpecially the Kontact suit thing. I can't stand the look of KDE though. To me it has always seemed cluttered.

I'd love to give it a try if a decent liveCD comes out. All I really want from a DE are a system wide spell check & a system wide address book - kind of like teh ones mac osX has. That & an easy way to use a lighter file manager like Thunar.

I think they are working on a sytem wide adressbook, where Kopete and Kontact use the same base for their contact storage (as other programs can use it as well)

[Frak]

I think they are working on a sytem wide adressbook, where Kopete and Kontact use the same base for their contact storage (as other programs can use it as well)
But you have to love how Konqueror does everything, from file browsing and browsing the internet, to a fully user friendly FTP browser, it "Just Works", plus it uses the core of KDE when its running, so the startup of Konqueror takes less than a second on most computers, because of the fact it's based off of KDE's core, and other already running processes, its technically already running, and from what I hear, Konqueror will be the program that draws the desktop, great space saver, but if it corrupts or something equivelent, the only solution may be to reinstall, not wise to put all of your eggs in one basket...

[ComplexNumber]

some more details and screenshots of the proposed kde4 here (http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2007/01/sneek-preview-of-expected-features-in.html). it seems like kickoff menu may be going to be the default in kde 4.

[bastiegast]

From the article mentioned above:


And the surprise of all things is that it will be possible to run the beautiful Dashboard widgets of Mac OSX in KDE 4.0.

Pleasant surprise i'd say.

[qalimas]

some more details and screenshots of the proposed kde4 here (http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2007/01/sneek-preview-of-expected-features-in.html). it seems like kickoff menu may be going to be the default in kde 4.

Hopefully with an option for the "classic" K Menu...

[maniacmusician]

I wasn't aware of some of those details. it's starting to look better and better. thanks for the link ComplexNumber

[Frak]

We KDE users are starting to feel even more at home, all the time.

[ComplexNumber]

We KDE users are starting to feel even more at home, all the time.
thats because they will be coming in from the freezing cold(ie kde 3.x) :D

[Frak]

thats because they will be coming in from the freezing cold(ie kde 3.x) :D
I'm sorry that I have to say its true, KDE used to be horrible, but I stuck with it, just like the windows look, don't like windows, just like how it functions.

[Erunno]

some more details and screenshots of the proposed kde4 here (http://linuxhelp.blogspot.com/2007/01/sneek-preview-of-expected-features-in.html). it seems like kickoff menu may be going to be the default in kde 4.

http://www.osnews.com/comme... (http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=16889&offset=15&rows=30&threshold=-1)


As a KDE developer, I don't appreciate at all the fact that this blogger takes a screenshot of the SuSE KDE 3.5 Kickoff menu and says it is the KDE 4.0 menu. This is plain wrong. Last time I checked, the KDE 4.0 menu was Raptor, not Kickoff. It is a part of the Plasma project and is still under heavy development, like Plasma itself, so it is too early for screenshots. You could find early screenshots of it but they're not supposed to be any representative of the final thing.

Well, I was doubtful about the whole kickoff integration into KDE 4 anyway.

Slightly OT, but I still don't understand all the "KDE is liek windozzz!11!!eleven!!" arguments. The KDE developers chose this paricular layout because they assumed many people would be coming from windows and therefore it would be more familiar to them. Arguebly they might have proposed them a better alternative (and a different color scheme to boot) but on the other hands many people aren't very fond of drastic changes. Anyway, this is easily changable. For instance, I use the GNOME taskbar layout in my KDE setup as I think it utilizes the space better than one fat taskbar at the bottom and I needed less than 2 minutes to achieve this.

Last but not least, a new issue of "The Road to KDE 4" (http://dot.kde.org/1168284615/) featuring some new pictures.

[Frak]

Who's saying that looking like Windows is bad? I like the Windows look, as stated above, I just don't like their business practices, but saying the Windows look is bad is like saying you don't like saying you don't like cement because Peter uses it, its totally unethical, the reason most people say it is because Windows uses it, so they won't.

[ComplexNumber]

Well, I was doubtful about the whole kickoff integration into KDE 4 anyway.yeah, thats why i put:

it seems like kickoff menu may be going to be the default in kde 4.as it was shown in the screenshots and there is little known about kde4, it was worth considering as a possibility.

[Erunno]

yeah, thats why i put:

I didn't miss that and the comment wasn't directed directly at you but at the original author who was probably suffering from a high dose of wishful thinking :)

I only thought that some clarification might be interesting, it was news to me as well.

EDIT:


Who's saying that looking like Windows is bad? I like the Windows look, as stated above, I just don't like their business practices, but saying the Windows look is bad is like saying you don't like saying you don't like cement because Peter uses it, its totally unethical, the reason most people say it is because Windows uses it, so they won't.

I certainly don't but there is a strong sentiment against anything from Microsoft in many Linux forums (including this) bordering on rejecting anything which resembles one of their products despite the possible merrits it might have. Anyway, my choice for a GNOME Layout in KDE was only affected by my general affection for it :)

[Horizon]

If I didn't know any better I'd say that was windows.
The new start menu is definitely an improvement (Of course this is just from looking at it, I haven't had a chance to actually use it yet. It looks much less cluttered though). (Image: http://photos1.blogger.com/x/blogger/938/4204/1600/471459/menu.png)
Interesting that an "Improvement" is never a step away from looking like windows...this is more like a step sideways...seems like something that could have been the Vista start menu. It would be interesting to see if Microsoft actually came up with something like this in the concept phase, I bet they did. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with it. It's clearly better than the Vista start menu for many, many reasons.

Although QT still makes me want to kill a puppy, and probably always will for many reasons. Ignoring the clear psychological ones :p
I think KDE is still slowly edging in (what I think is) the right direction. I see no reason to advocate Gnome in a clearly KDE thread, but I do think it's interesting that KDE seems to have matured. I think for many Gnome users KDE is getting to the stage where it's actually an option.

[mips]

I have that installed but I still prefer the original kde menu. The new one looks nice but nnot very functional as it takes to much time to get where you want to be.

[Sunflower1970]

I like that. I like that a lot.

Might have to try Kubuntu when it switches over to KDE4 at some point :)

[mips]

I like that. I like that a lot.

Might have to try Kubuntu when it switches over to KDE4 at some point :)

you can always install it now. there was a thread here somewhere about how to do it.

[Sunflower1970]

I'm using Gnome right now, and I like it. I'm gonna wait a bit (probably after Feisty comes out) before I ponder whether or not to go for KDE :)

[mips]

I'm using Gnome right now, and I like it. I'm gonna wait a bit (probably after Feisty comes out) before I ponder whether or not to go for KDE :)

Ok, apologies, I thought you were using kubuntu as you said you were waiting for feisty to try it. My mistake :)

[Erunno]

The menu is called kickoff (developed by Novell/SUSE) and as far as I know it hasn't made its way into mainline KDE4. And Katapult has proven to be far more useful to me than any menu redesign. I start every application via Katapult and could therefore remove almost all launchers on the taskbar.

[H.E. Pennypacker]

I won't ever use KDE while it sticks to Qt. If it switches to GTK, we'll talk.

[maniacmusician]

I won't ever use KDE while it sticks to Qt. If it switches to GTK, we'll talk.
Hahaha, that will never happen. I understand why you'd want that, since GTK is easier to code and whatnot, but it honestly would not be beneficial for KDE to do that.

A lot of it's amazing new technologies are taking advantage of the QT framework (which is evolving very nicely), and it's stuff that they would find much harder to implement with GTK. I'm excited about QT

[Frak]

Hahaha, that will never happen. I understand why you'd want that, since GTK is easier to code and whatnot, but it honestly would not be beneficial for KDE to do that.

A lot of it's amazing new technologies are taking advantage of the QT framework (which is evolving very nicely), and it's stuff that they would find much harder to implement with GTK. I'm excited about QT
Ditto

[cowlip]

I'm really impressed with KDE 4's direction, with Dolphin semi-replacing Konqueror and all that. Good stuff :) I've always liked the little things they have too, like how you can search through the names of icons when you're in an icon chooser.

The language stuff called Sonnet is very impressive. http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/KDE_4_s_Sonnet_will_turbocharge_language_processin g

The things I'm most excited about though is the cross-platform compatibility that is coming to KOffice and Krita. That could do wonders for Linux on the desktop because they are a lot faster and nicer than apps like the Gimp and OpenOffice.org. KOffice (and Abiword too, fairly) is getting a grammar checker too so it will be great

[maniacmusician]

I'm really impressed with KDE 4's direction, with Dolphin semi-replacing Konqueror and all that. Good stuff :) I've always liked the little things they have too, like how you can search through the names of icons when you're in an icon chooser.

The language stuff called Sonnet is very impressive. http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/KDE_4_s_Sonnet_will_turbocharge_language_processin g

The things I'm most excited about though is the cross-platform compatibility that is coming to KOffice and Krita. That could do wonders for Linux on the desktop because they are a lot faster and nicer than apps like the Gimp and OpenOffice.org. KOffice (and Abiword too, fairly) is getting a grammar checker too so it will be great
Indeed :) KOffice still has a ways to go before it can compete on even footing with OpenOffice, but it's a new project, I think it will get there. They're making good progress at least.

And yeah, the ability of QT4 to run on any platform is going to be amazing :) They've already been able to run KDE on OS X, and could probably do Windows as well, if they wanted to.

What I'm most excited about is how they're coming up with a brilliant, innovative structure for a DE. What I mean is all the different parts (Phonon, Plasma, Solid, etc) coming together and working independently of each other. Stuff like Decibel is amazingly exciting. I can't wait for it.

Of course, not everything will be functional right at the release of KDE4, but as we get further into its progressions, they'll be able to finish up the coding and take advantage of all these capabiities. So exciting!

[Kindred]

I won't ever use KDE while it sticks to Qt. If it switches to GTK, we'll talk.

Out of interest, why is that? I frequently hear that Qt is easier to work with than GTK, though have not done so myself so can't really comment on that. It just seems to me that Qt is technically superior to GTK, I mean.. comparing redraw speeds, GTK just cannot compete. It's not even close.

[maniacmusician]

Out of interest, why is that? I frequently hear that Qt is easier to work with than GTK, though have not done so myself so can't really comment on that. It just seems to me that Qt is technically superior to GTK, I mean.. comparing redraw speeds, GTK just cannot compete. It's not even close.
That's true, QT is definitely technically superior. I think that GTK is easier to use in the sense that even beginners can play with it and make stuff pretty easily.

QT, I believe, requires more knowledge to be able to use. You need at least a working knowledge of C/C++, right?

But as far as saying that QT is technically superior, you're absolutely right. It annihilates GTK in that regard, just because it covers a much wider platform. There's a lot more that can be done with QT that you can't even dream of doing with GTK.

The reason for this is of course that GTK is limited to just the interface. QT can do more than just be used to create a simple interface.

This doesn't make GTK bad at all; it's still a nice toolkit, and it is easier to work with for beginners.

[ComplexNumber]

The reason for this is of course that GTK is limited to just the interface.yes, at present its just a GUI, whilst qt has database support etc (amongst other things). that situation has been changing for a while, but the result won't come into fruition until around the time of gtk3/gnome3. whats been happening is that most/some of the gnome libs are being placed into gtk. click (http://live.gnome.org/ProjectRidley) for more info.

[maniacmusician]

yes, at present its just a GUI, whilst qt has database support etc (amongst other things). that situation has been changing for a while, but the result won't come into fruition until around the time of gtk3/gnome3. whats been happening is that most/some of the gnome libs are being placed into gtk. click (http://live.gnome.org/ProjectRidley) for more info.
Interesting link...but the libs that are being placed into GTK are still basically just GUI-based libs that aren't really extending the functionality of GTK. Seems like they're just being placed there so that they can be better maintained.

I'd love to see extended support for GTK as well, because that would put it on even footing with QT, allowing them to better compete and compliment each other. It'd be great.

[karellen]

Looks really nice, I'll give it a try when it's released

[runningwithscissors]

Interesting link...but the libs that are being placed into GTK are still basically just GUI-based libs that aren't really extending the functionality of GTK. Seems like they're just being placed there so that they can be better maintained.

I'd love to see extended support for GTK as well, because that would put it on even footing with QT, allowing them to better compete and compliment each other. It'd be great.
I like GTK+. They won't put GNOME specific rubbish into it.
Just like Qt is independent of kdelibs.


That's true, QT is definitely technically superior. I think that GTK is easier to use in the sense that even beginners can play with it and make stuff pretty easily.
Nope. Qt is easier to pick up than GTK for beginners too. The documentation is also more complete and easy to follow.


QT, I believe, requires more knowledge to be able to use. You need at least a working knowledge of C/C++, right?
Qt has bindings for Python. Same as GTK+.


But as far as saying that QT is technically superior, you're absolutely right. It annihilates GTK in that regard, just because it covers a much wider platform. There's a lot more that can be done with QT that you can't even dream of doing with GTK.
Actually, I don't think so. The libraries are just less integrated. But the same stuff can be done with either toolkit.

I myself prefer GTK+ for coding. But that is because I like programming C, and avoid C++.


The reason for this is of course that GTK is limited to just the interface. QT can do more than just be used to create a simple interface.
Yes, but similar libraries exist external to the widget toolkit that allow you to do that.


This doesn't make GTK bad at all; it's still a nice toolkit, and it is easier to work with for beginners.
GTK is a good toolkit. Except for its nasty file dialogue. The only problem is that people confuse it to be "GNOME's toolkit". Most XFCE apps also use GTK.

[Colonel Kilkenny]

There's also version of Qt for Java developers, Qt Jambi.

edit. It still tech preview but anyway, it is coming.

[Frak]

The only problem is that people confuse it to be "GNOME's toolkit". Most XFCE apps also use GTK.

Wait, doesn't GTK stand for "GIMP Tool Kit"? And QT all the way, I've had better experiences with it in terms of quality.

[Gargamella]

maybe i am addicted to gnome, but i still don't like it ;(

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Mmm... That SVG stuff is looking pretty :)
Also *GASP* Does that menu not have a giant K on it? If so, hooray!
For maximum prettiness, they need to do something about those purple window titles. I'm not a purple hater, but I've never found them to really blend all that well with anything.

I'm still a Gnome addict because I've always found Gnome to be more solidly organized, but I'll try this out. (Especially if Kubuntu with KDE 4 gets a minimal install option!)
It's great being able to switch between desktop environments. (But I still wish I could switch between menus; it's kind of a pain having all the programs - such as the Terminal program - for each DE appearing in my menu).


What I would /really/ like to see is XFCE with this level of prettiness. That environment is Fast!

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Out of interest, why is that? I frequently hear that Qt is easier to work with than GTK, though have not done so myself so can't really comment on that. It just seems to me that Qt is technically superior to GTK, I mean.. comparing redraw speeds, GTK just cannot compete. It's not even close.

For me, it has nothing to do with the performance or the technical abilities of either GTK or Qt. The only reason I won't touch Qt with a ten foot pole is because of its appearance. GTK uses too much gray, but that is still better than all those weird looking icons, the strange window corners, and just the poor overall look.

Qt is worse than anything Windows, Mac OSX, and GTK have to offer. If it LOOKED like GTK, I would probably use it.

I forgot to mention I have a problem with Qt's licensing.

[Erunno]

I forgot to mention I have a problem with Qt's licensing.

That means you have a problem with the GPL in general unless you wish to use Qt for commercial products. There's nothing wrong with the dual-licensing in my opinion. The code is free for all to inspect and use as long as it's non-commercial and the commercial version makes the continued development of Qt possible (also beneficial for the GPL versions).

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Shouldn't something like Qt be on the Lesser GPL?
After all, it is a library. That's what Lesser GPL is there for ;)

By having the full GPL license on something like your GUI toolkit there are a few bad effects:
1: Less commercial (usually proprietary) software. This harms the user that does not mind spending money to license software which happens to cost a lot of money to build and whose developers do not see any fun in releasing for free their 6 years of work "just because".
2: The proprietary software that /does/ bother to squeeze past the GPL does not blend with the rest of the interface because it does not use QT. (For the above reasons).

There is nothing wrong with the GPL, it is doing what it is meant to do and it is a very nice thing to have. There is, however, something wrong with how easily people seem to forget the equal importance of the Lesser GPL, which is the way that free / open source software libraries can be taken seriously by commercial developers.

Those commercial vendors could, I suppose, pay for a proprietary license... but then it's not very free, is it? (And what about the smaller developers who have a great idea that they can't afford to make free, but who have practically no money to pay for a license?)
I do see where they are coming from. Trolltech wants to protect their work as well so GPL is the only sensible way to provide their library for free (otherwise noone would pay for the licensed version). This happens a lot, actually, and I have used a few libraries that do this myself. But really, it is not sensible when this is the GUI lib.


Anyway, all that aside: Mmm... scalable...

[Quillz]

you can always install it now. there was a thread here somewhere about how to do it.
True, you can install it now, but I can't imagine it being very productive or stable at this point, as nothing has really been finalized with it yet. Has Plasma even been built yet?

[mips]

True, you can install it now, but I can't imagine it being very productive or stable at this point, as nothing has really been finalized with it yet. Has Plasma even been built yet?

Sorry, I was referring to kickoff and not kde4 stuff.