Purchase what is free! Open drives that is.

[encompass]

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/binary-driver-education
I agree with this wholly and holy. I wish those that are avid about linux would no longer purchase hardware that supports closed source only.
You will never see progress in the community if the users don't understand that all hardware needs to be open drivers. This way devices "just work" and don't need all the configuration, download, and setup, that they do now.
So with this in mind I would like to say.
MY POINT---
I have started a program with our little linux club. We are going to all of the computer companies in Helsinki to promote linux software by using the ubuntu live cd's and checking if the systems have linux support with them. For example:
We go to a store and with there permission boot the live cd. We then verify what works and what doesn't. As payment for them letting us do so. We provide information for them both in paper and online of what hardware worked from our test. We then want to build a community of people to help with anyone that get the device working or provide further information about each device. I suppose this would be best done with a forum.
Hope I am not the only one who thinks this is a god idea. I just wanted to share it with everyone to get feed back on it.
Thanks---

As a further not from these posts, it seems we have this in the works, sorta, I hope to start collaborating there on that side too.
Found here... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SupportedHardwareListProposal
And from that site come dohicky...
http://dohickey.sourceforge.net/client/screenshots.shtml
This may be our main to for site submission.

[IYY]

I would also suggest freely giving them stickers that say "Works on Ubuntu" or something like that.

While I don't believe that the stores, especially major ones, will be willing to participate, it's certainly worth a try.

[BoyOfDestiny]

I would also suggest freely giving them stickers that say "Works on Ubuntu" or something like that.

While I don't believe that the stores, especially major ones, will be willing to participate, it's certainly worth a try.

Sounds good to me. I love using open drivers. Things just work in that case, Got 3d out of the box on my laptop (intel chipset) everything else worked too.

When running ubuntu testing releases, I got less X breakage. It's nice when the drivers are open, since the devs can fix 'em. With closed/proprietary hands are tied until the vendor acts (and if you are using something old/obsolete, they may drop support all together...)

EDIT: Also, I'm hoping this helps. I use the Ubuntu Device Database thingy
Applications -> System Tools -> Ubuntu Device Database

You can send info on your hardware, how well it works, and any comments in particular...

[encompass]

Boy of DEstiny, Battletoads, I loved them!

And the stickers... yeah, that would be a good idea, but to keep the standard I think it would be a good idea to have a central location that places the stickers. That way people can trust the information a little better.

[mdsmedia]

Sounds good to me. I love using open drivers. Things just work in that case, Got 3d out of the box on my laptop (intel chipset) everything else worked too.

When running ubuntu testing releases, I got less X breakage. It's nice when the drivers are open, since the devs can fix 'em. With closed/proprietary hands are tied until the vendor acts (and if you are using something old/obsolete, they may drop support all together...)

EDIT: Also, I'm hoping this helps. I use the Ubuntu Device Database thingy
Applications -> System Tools -> Ubuntu Device Database

You can send info on your hardware, how well it works, and any comments in particular...I haven't voted because I'm not sure what the poll means. I agree with BoyOfDestiny..:)

[Tomosaur]

Many companies are tied down by legal agreements with Microsoft. I'm sure many computer retailers would love to ship Linux PCs, but are afraid of Microsoft's retaliation. Microsoft has stated that they would price retailers out of business if they started shipping non-Windows computers. Dell has a habit of introducing Linux PCs, and then withdrawing them when Microsoft begins to flex it's muscles. It's not really a problem with computer vendors, it's Microsofts anti-competitive practices. Most big vendors are paralyzed in this situation until their contract with Microsoft expires. Your best bet is to visit small, unknown retailers who only ship Windows PCs out of ignorance than as a legally binding contract. This is a battle which can not be won by severing the head.

[mikeyandmary]

What about buying a PC with NO operating system on it and installing ubuntu when you get home. Surely it wouldn't be too different to installing over windows on an existing machine???

There are a number of PC/Computer Parts Stores/Chains in Sydney that allow you to build a custom system and select no operating system. Saves about $120-150 off the price :D

[Lord Illidan]

I agree with this wholly and holy. I wish those that are avid about linux would no longer purchase hardware that supports closed source only.
You will never see progress in the community if the users don't understand that all hardware needs to be open drivers. This way devices "just work" and don't need all the configuration, download, and setup, that they do now.

I don't know if holy was intended there..but it does illustrate something. Open Source is not a religion guys. Don't turn it into one.

And until hardware which offers powerful performance under open source drivers comes out, I shall keep on using my current hardware. I don't know what is so wrong about that.

I want compromise.

[encompass]

Very hard to find for me in Finland. And many manufacturers won't do that. It's all about the money to them. If people by windows that is what they sell. If people buy linux, oh wait, most don't. This provides a way for people to go to a store and what the hardware they want and know at the same time that it works with linux. It becomes and advantage for them to go to the store, and an advantage for the store to posses this "certification".

[encompass]

I don't know if holy was intended there..but it does illustrate something. Open Source is not a religion guys. Don't turn it into one.

And until hardware which offers powerful performance under open source drivers comes out, I shall keep on using my current hardware. I don't know what is so wrong about that.

I want compromise.

Why don't the companies producing those fantastic drivers, and I can't disagree with many of them, make those good drivers open source. That way, everyone benifits from this amazing quality of programming and all graphics drivers improve. Hence the open source ideology.

[encompass]

Off Topix --- And your right, it is not a religion. But it is a passion for most. Something that outside of the basic needs of life, depend on it almost every day.

[Lord Illidan]

Why don't the companies producing those fantastic drivers, and I can't disagree with many of them, make those good drivers open source. That way, everyone benifits from this amazing quality of programming and all graphics drivers improve. Hence the open source ideology.

Because in the real world, there exists such a thing as competition.

Imagine if NVIDIA released their drivers under opensource license. Then ATI would be able to catch up on NVIDIA's secrets and capitalise on them. The same goes vice-versa.

Also, it takes more effort than you think to release drivers under an opensource license. It's not just "dump that code on the net" and we're off. Someone has to maintain that code, etc. It takes time, time which might have been better spent on improving what's already there.

[Sammi]

This is a copy/paste of a post of mine from another tread:

I fully recognise the open source philosophy. I do see the beauty in it and the need for it.
I just think that all the holier that thou behavior, some FOSS zealots seem to show, is hurting Linux more than it's helping it ATM. Right now we need to stop worrying about making everything open source, and in stead consentrate on making a effective and functional operating system for everyone.

We, supporters of the FOSS philosophy, need to recognise peoples right to run copyrighted software. ATM I am personally seeing many attack any move towards including proprietary software in Linux distributions, for example ATI and Nvidia drivers by default in Ubuntu. I believe that this behavior is hampering the growth of Linux.

[spockrock]

ummm....I love opensource, and would love it if everything is opensource, however we live in a world that might not always be opensource friendly. For example Lord Illidan poin ted out why nvidia and ati can't opensource thier drivers, as it could be bad for business, and allow ati and nvidia to have knowledge on teh inner workings of each others gpus. If they already dont know due to corporate espionage.

Also I think if we want linux in general to expand and have a better marketshare we need, to allow for closed source apps and drivers. I think then we can convince from there that opening up apps, that cost money is a viable option for those who feel you cannot make money from opensource.

[EdThaSlayer]

This would solve a lot of problems that has to do with hardware compatibility and hardware performance. My ATI card somehow pumps out more juice when on M$ Windows than on Ubuntu Linux, mainly due to driver issues.

[Mr_J_]

I like the idea.
Maybe you could supply; on demand; to those who prove more interest some stickers.
Or give them the place where they could purchase those stickers.

"Works with Ubuntu" White background with Orange letters or black.

[encompass]

I like the idea.
Maybe you could supply; on demand; to those who prove more interest some stickers.
Or give them the place where they could purchase those stickers.

"Works with Ubuntu" White background with Orange letters or black.

Thanks, I will work on it.

[encompass]

Because in the real world, there exists such a thing as competition.

Imagine if NVIDIA released their drivers under opensource license. Then ATI would be able to catch up on NVIDIA's secrets and capitalise on them. The same goes vice-versa.

Also, it takes more effort than you think to release drivers under an opensource license. It's not just "dump that code on the net" and we're off. Someone has to maintain that code, etc. It takes time, time which might have been better spent on improving what's already there.

Then what is left is costumer service sector. Companies that privide better service will create more money. Suddenly technology progresses even faster, we stop worrying about drivers not working, and start create hardware that is killer. All because people can't keep things secret but open. Imagine if cars safety features were open source. Everyone in the world would be safer. And people could worry about how to make the best safety features safer.

Hope you understand my point. That is what is happening with my idea. The programming when open source creates groups and organizations that certify that the hardware works with a specific OS.

Tough things to explain, my idea is broad. I hope you get my point in it all.

[Lord Illidan]

ummm....I love opensource, and would love it if everything is opensource, however we live in a world that might not always be opensource friendly. For example Lord Illidan poin ted out why nvidia and ati can't opensource thier drivers, as it could be bad for business, and allow ati and nvidia to have knowledge on teh inner workings of each others gpus. If they already dont know due to corporate espionage.

Also I think if we want linux in general to expand and have a better marketshare we need, to allow for closed source apps and drivers. I think then we can convince from there that opening up apps, that cost money is a viable option for those who feel you cannot make money from opensource.
Yes. First we expand, then we can go making demands from large companies.

Edit, also by expanding, we increase the number of developers willing to reverse engineer the propietary drivers.

[Phosphoric]

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/binary-driver-education
We go to a store and with there permission boot the live cd. We then verify what works and what doesn't. As payment for them letting us do so. We provide information for them both in paper and online of what hardware worked from our test. We then want to build a community of people to help with anyone that get the device working or provide further information about each device. I suppose this would be best done with a forum.
Hope I am not the only one who thinks this is a god idea. I just wanted to share it with everyone to get feed back on it.
Thanks---


I would be careful about using the Live CD to verify hardware compatablity. On my PC the Live CD worked perfectly with my Ethernet and Sound card, the installed version did not and the only way I can use Ubuntu is to replace both cards.:(

[encompass]

Thanks for the info... I will keep that in mind when making the information about the certification.

[spockrock]

Yes. First we expand, then we can go making demands from large companies.

Edit, also by expanding, we increase the number of developers willing to reverse engineer the propietary drivers.

yeah for sure, also my last line made no sense.....lack of sleep will do that, hahahhaha.

[Sunnz]

I would be careful about using the Live CD to verify hardware compatablity. On my PC the Live CD worked perfectly with my Ethernet and Sound card, the installed version did not and the only way I can use Ubuntu is to replace both cards.:(
Maybe it would be possible to create a Live CD specifically to test hardware support, not just for Ubuntu, but Linux with free drivers in general?

It should include a bunch of tools to inspect, probe, and test hardwares specifically, it should includes the latest database of what's available, and should new types of hardware is encountered, it can save this new hardware's information to an USB stick.

Maybe it could be a CD that can boot kernel and load modules, drivers, etc; from a USB stick, so that when new kernel comes out, you don't need to burn a new CD, but simply update what's on the USB stick.

[zetetic]

Maybe it would be possible to create a Live CD specifically to test hardware support, not just for Ubuntu, but Linux with free drivers in general?

It should include a bunch of tools to inspect, probe, and test hardwares specifically, it should includes the latest database of what's available, and should new types of hardware is encountered, it can save this new hardware's information to an USB stick.

Maybe it could be a CD that can boot kernel and load modules, drivers, etc; from a USB stick, so that when new kernel comes out, you don't need to burn a new CD, but simply update what's on the USB stick.

This is a wonderful idea

[encompass]

This is a wonderful idea

I totally agree with you... It wouldn't even hard to create one.... Does anyone have a list of commands, software, and tools, they use to test hardware...
common ones could be...
outputs from lspci, lsusb, and other whatnot...
I could easily make little scripts that could quickly output all this data to a file and then submit it someone like a usb disk.

[maniacmusician]

Because in the real world, there exists such a thing as competition.

Imagine if NVIDIA released their drivers under opensource license. Then ATI would be able to catch up on NVIDIA's secrets and capitalise on them. The same goes vice-versa.



But under something like the GPL license, if ATI uses the open sourced code to benefit their own cards, then won't they have to open-source themselves too? I think that both companies can realize that competition is good and if they develop their cards independently, that'll result in the most innovation. But perhaps I'm not understanding the situation right, that happens sometimes :)


This is a wonderful idea

yes it is a pretty good idea. if you guys have the initiative to do that, it'd be great. For example, if you're not working on a project right now, go for it! I'm preoccupied with a couple of other projects at the moment, but I think this would be great with some initiative behind it, if you guys can band together and get it done.

[Sunnz]

But under something like the GPL license, if ATI uses the open sourced code to benefit their own cards, then won't they have to open-source themselves too? I think that both companies can realize that competition is good and if they develop their cards independently, that'll result in the most innovation. But perhaps I'm not understanding the situation right, that happens sometimes :)The way I understand GPL is that you don't need to release anything under GPL if you have not use any GPL'ed work, ie, GPL'ed code... e.g. if you browsed bash's source for the sake of learning how stuff works, then write your own shell from scratch, you have not "copy and pasted" bash's source and have not used any GPL'ed code, and so you don't need to release your shell as GPL.

That's how I understood anyway... please correct me if necessary.



yes it is a pretty good idea. if you guys have the initiative to do that, it'd be great. For example, if you're not working on a project right now, go for it! I'm preoccupied with a couple of other projects at the moment, but I think this would be great with some initiative behind it, if you guys can band together and get it done.I guess I start a new thread about it, will post url later.

EDIT: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333182

[deanlinkous]

Because in the real world, there exists such a thing as competition.

Imagine if NVIDIA released their drivers under opensource license. Then ATI would be able to catch up on NVIDIA's secrets and capitalise on them. The same goes vice-versa.


The second part of your post IS true FAIR competition. Not having a unfair advantage. And as you said, one benefits from the other and vice versa.

Non-free/Closed-source is anything BUT competition.

[rbhigday]

dumb question but how will you tell when your in the store if the drivers are open or closed?

Or am I missing something?

[Tomosaur]

I totally agree with you... It wouldn't even hard to create one.... Does anyone have a list of commands, software, and tools, they use to test hardware...
common ones could be...
outputs from lspci, lsusb, and other whatnot...
I could easily make little scripts that could quickly output all this data to a file and then submit it someone like a usb disk.

It depends on the hardware. A network card would need to probe a network, a video card would need to perform some kind of video check with user interaction (to see whether whatever it's testing happens on-screen), audio cards would need sound to play. The more hardware you have, the more software will need to be included. The kernel itself will only recognise that something is plugged into it. Depending on the hardware, it may already know how to test it, but if not, you're looking at a LOT of drivers included. I don't think any hardware except the mobo knows how to check itself without OS interaction, but don't quote me on that. USB devices will generally take power from the computer as soon as they're plugged in, but if there's no driver present it'll just sit there.

[Lord Illidan]

The second part of your post IS true FAIR competition. Not having a unfair advantage. And as you said, one benefits from the other and vice versa.

Non-free/Closed-source is anything BUT competition.

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. But in the real world, where the main motive is not advancement of knowledge but increasing profits in the short term, what do you think they would do?



But under something like the GPL license, if ATI uses the open sourced code to benefit their own cards, then won't they have to open-source themselves too? I think that both companies can realize that competition is good and if they develop their cards independently, that'll result in the most innovation. But perhaps I'm not understanding the situation right, that happens sometimes :smile:

Keep in mind that the short term is what these companies have in mind.
So, if for the sake of argument, NVIDIA releases Opensource drivers, ATI can take a look at the drivers, and produce hardware with a similar spec to NVIDIA, but then cut the price. Legally, it has to release its own code under the GPL, but what if they don't?

[ardvark71]

Hi all...

While a may be a bit ignorant on the subject, I support the idea but I also think the quality of open source drivers need to improve. Too often I hear of other folks saying the features and options available for Windows (enter device of your choice here) is superior to that of Linux. That is, if there IS a driver for it under Linux.

But again, I do support the concept wholeheartedly but equal emphasis should also be placed on quality and full support of a device's features.

Best Regards...

[deanlinkous]

the real world.....
The real world is microsoft, drm, apple, no fair use, everyone is a criminal, yada yada yada....I stopped living in that world a while ago. I live in the GNU world now!

[Sunnz]

The second part of your post IS true FAIR competition. Not having a unfair advantage. And as you said, one benefits from the other and vice versa.

Non-free/Closed-source is anything BUT competition.

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. But in the real world, where the main motive is not advancement of knowledge but increasing profits in the short term, what do you think they would do?
In the real world, they DON'T want fair competition, they DEMAND UNFAIR competition!!!

[encompass]

The way I understand GPL is that you don't need to release anything under GPL if you have not use any GPL'ed work, ie, GPL'ed code... e.g. if you browsed bash's source for the sake of learning how stuff works, then write your own shell from scratch, you have not "copy and pasted" bash's source and have not used any GPL'ed code, and so you don't need to release your shell as GPL.

That's how I understood anyway... please correct me if necessary.

I guess I start a new thread about it, will post url later.

EDIT: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=333182

Yup... but I don't mind it being open.

[encompass]

Hi all...

While a may be a bit ignorant on the subject, I support the idea but I also think the quality of open source drivers need to improve. Too often I hear of other folks saying the features and options available for Windows (enter device of your choice here) is superior to that of Linux. That is, if there IS a driver for it under Linux.

But again, I do support the concept wholeheartedly but equal emphasis should also be placed on quality and full support of a device's features.

Best Regards...

Many of the drivers were created from nothing. Have you ever probed a device.... many times they can't get to full functionality because the drive information is never provided. They have to probe the unknown and blind world till, for example, the web cam blinks it's little light once. Then a little further... and so on. Very hard work, but if the companies created their first driver which works just fine... open it and let the world do the upgrades, drivers would only work better. Unless their hardware sucks. So they must live a higher standard of hardware, to avoid criticism from the gpl programmers.

[encompass]

I agree with you, don't get me wrong. But in the real world, where the main motive is not advancement of knowledge but increasing profits in the short term, what do you think they would do?



Keep in mind that the short term is what these companies have in mind.
So, if for the sake of argument, NVIDIA releases Opensource drivers, ATI can take a look at the drivers, and produce hardware with a similar spec to NVIDIA, but then cut the price. Legally, it has to release its own code under the GPL, but what if they don't?

Good point, but couldn't the companie tell if they made hardware that uses their ideas?

[encompass]

dumb question but how will you tell when your in the store if the drivers are open or closed?

Or am I missing something?
Shared database of information online.
"Want to shop for open source? got to open_stores.org"
IF the store in not on the list... hopefuly we or they contact the organization to begin the process of hardware testing.
It is also the option of the company to produce advirtizing telling they are certified.
Which comes to another thing.... we should create a logo that they can use to show others they are working with us.

[ardvark71]

Many of the drivers were created from nothing. Have you ever probed a device.... many times they can't get to full functionality because the drive information is never provided. They have to probe the unknown and blind world till, for example, the web cam blinks it's little light once. Then a little further... and so on. Very hard work, but if the companies created their first driver which works just fine... open it and let the world do the upgrades, drivers would only work better. Unless their hardware sucks. So they must live a higher standard of hardware, to avoid criticism from the gpl programmers.

That's true and I think cooperation from the various manufacturers will come when we see a lot more people migrating to Linux and demanding it.

Best Regards...

[ago]

Boy of DEstiny, Battletoads, I loved them!

And the stickers... yeah, that would be a good idea, but to keep the standard I think it would be a good idea to have a central location that places the stickers. That way people can trust the information a little better.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SupportedHardwareListProposal

[encompass]

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SupportedHardwareListProposal

yes... Yes... YES... YES!!!
Sounds like a great start there... I have created many a wiki and follow those rules when working with hardware. Ironically I followed it rather closely.
I will start to work with that too.

[Sunnz]

BTW, Vista is doing a certify thing as well: http://www.lookforlogo.com/no_specs.html

I am not suggesting that we shall copy it... but maybe it is some good food for thoughts.

[encompass]

BTW, Vista is doing a certify thing as well: http://www.lookforlogo.com/no_specs.html

I am not suggesting that we shall copy it... but maybe it is some good food for thoughts.

Good idea to check it out. I see thee standards, but we need to promote the idea that something works or not. I think the next step would be in the direction. To produce a standard of quality. We are just producing a standard of compatability. But thanks for the post. Your right... it is food for thought.

[Johnsie]

If I wanted people to tell me what hardware and software to buy I'd buy a Mac :-)

[encompass]

If I wanted people to tell me what hardware and software to buy I'd buy a Mac :-)

I get your point and there is a lot of truth to it. The fact of the matter is, it is relative.
Does PC hardware work on a mac? Do Mac hardware work on a PC? Not in all cases.
I would be lying if I said that all hardware worked on Linux. Why don't hardware vendor support the Linux OS and say it works on Linux? Quite simply, I think it is because Linux can't support them and keep it's flexibility that makes it unique. When you install software there are many ways it can be done. Apt, RPM, Autopackage, Source, emerge, and many others. If they create packages for each one and tested it with all the Distros out there it would be impossible to cover them all and keep them up to date.

Thats where we come in. WE MAKE THE CHOICE to support the hardware in many different ways. The best way is to get the driver for the hardware in open source form and place it in a Distro to "just work". In my opinion Debian has done a great job of making that possible. And Mepis and Ubuntu are good examples of applying Debian power to what they want in the end.
So with this all in mind, we find a few things out:


Venders CAN'T support every linux distro and say it "just works" we have to. They can develop a driver but the development and integration into the kernel has to be on the part of the distro.

We have to produce the list of supported hardware for a particular distro of choice. That is what I have done. I picked ubuntu, not Kubutnu, not Xubuntu, not Mepis. But good 'ol ubuntu. That way when out club says it works in ubuntu, well, it works, or it's alot more reliable of an answer than any other general, "Linux compatible" answer.


I don't follow "linux compatible" when I look at a product. I have had bad experiences with it. Ends up the driver only worked for RH7.2 or something like that. They were binary drivers that were closed source and other what not. Something we don't want in the linux community if we can avoid it.

I feel the best option is to create a do all list for each distribution. Many groups may start creating these lists, but only a spare few will be the one that you look to for your answers. A compatibility war so to say. If you can call it that. Looking at distro's it is a battle for many to come on top and ubuntu is not the only distro thinking that way.

Thanks for your comment and yes it is important to understand that you don't want a distro that tells you want to buy. And linux is your BEST choice. (did you know that the wireless mightymouse for mac only runs in linux PC too?)

Thanks... Hope that all made sence.

[Sunnz]

(did you know that the wireless mightymouse for mac only runs in linux PC too?)

Don't they work with Macs as well? Err... I mean, PC made by Apple... err... also PC that runs Linux... or PPC Macs that run Linux... ahhh!!!

[encompass]

Don't they work with Macs as well? Err... I mean, PC made by Apple... err... also PC that runs Linux... or PPC Macs that run Linux... ahhh!!!

The don't run in windows. :)