No Blobs By Default Petition

[ago]

Dear all,

I have started a petition in order to ask Mark and the Ubuntu developers to reconsider their decision to add binary drivers by default and opt for easy-installation as opposed to pre-installation of closed software. The issue has been discussed at length and I see no point in reiterating the arguments in favor and against the decision, suffice to say the proposed change should hopefully accomodate the views of those who oppose preinstallation of closed drivers, without compromosing ease of use and availability of features.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition

If you agree with the above proposal, please consider 1) visiting the wiki and signing the petition, 2) making the petition known to others. I know that Mark and the other developers are well aware of the issues at stake, but I believe that a "formal" petition might be more effective to influence their decision process. I also believe that Ubuntu is a community distro, which means that the community does not passively accepts the choices made, but it forges such choices. This is one chance to influence the direction of your favorite distribution, I hope you will take advantage of it.

Thanks,

Ago

[ago]

You need to be registered and you have to edit the page in order to sign. If possible please use the following format to sign:


1. YourName: Optional Comment

I.E.

space 1 dot space Your Name

or

space 1 dot space Your Name: Comment

You should use the number " 1.", that automatically increments the counter as appropriate, do not type in yourself the number of your signature.

Please avoid using the wiki as a space to discuss pros and cons of binary drivers, this is a petition, if you want to discuss, use the forum http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=297392

[steven8]

signed

[notebook_ftw]

Dear all,

I have started a petition in order to ask Mark and the Ubuntu developers to reconsider their decision to add binary drivers by default and opt for easy-installation as opposed to pre-installation of closed software. The issue has been discussed at length and I see no point in reiterating the arguments in favor and against the decision, suffice to say the proposed change should hopefully accomodate the views of those who oppose preinstallation of closed drivers, without compromosing ease of use and availability of features.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition

If you agree with the above proposal, please consider 1) visiting the wiki and signing the petition, 2) making the petition known to others. I know that Mark and the other developers are well aware of the issues at stake, but I believe that a "formal" petition might be more effective to influence their decision process. I also believe that Ubuntu is a community distro, which means that the community does not passively accepts the choices made, but it forges such choices. This is one chance to influence the direction of your favorite distribution, I hope you will take advantage of it.

Thanks,

Ago
This is something I will consider supporting. I don't want the kernel to disallow use of any binary/proprietary software, but I think people should be made aware of the benefits/consequences accordingly. The move they were trying earlier to ban all binary use with the kernel is unsettling, but this is something I can get behind. Educated decisions are what we need to promote here.

[dbbolton]

petitions traditionally have a low success rate.

[givré]

petitions traditionally have a low success rate.
right, and that's a shame, especially when you can change things with only 5 minute of your time.
Anyway, i just sign it.

[prizrak]

Signed

[ButteBlues]

While I disagree on this matter, you all are more than free to have your own opinions.

[Klaidas]

Easy installation? Like described here (http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=213160&cid=17336848)?

[reacocard]

Signed. I don't mind proprietary drivers per se, but having them installed by default I strongly disagree with.

[jc87]

Signed;)

Being able to choose installation of blobs under my own initiative - yes

Default blobs - no

[utabintarbo]

Yet another Stallman-esque "more catholic than the pope" attempt? :rolleyes:

What a shame that Canonical is trying to make Linux easier to use/install. Then we can't view ourselves as more tech-savvy than everybody else. :(

What elitist BS. :roll:

[jc87]

Yet another Stallman-esque "more catholic than the pope" attempt? :rolleyes:

What a shame that Canonical is trying to make Linux easier to use/install. Then we can't view ourselves as more tech-savvy than everybody else. :(

What elitist BS. :roll:

A) Nobody is saying you cant use blobs, just that we don't want them stuck under our throats by default.

B) There are tons of arguments against blobs besides licensing philosophies, go read them instead of starting flammebaits.

C) This thread is only to make users aware of the petition existance, if you want to discuss the subject there are threads appropriate for that.

[.t.]

Yet another Stallman-esque "more catholic than the pope" attempt? :rolleyes:

What a shame that Canonical is trying to make Linux easier to use/install. Then we can't view ourselves as more tech-savvy than everybody else. :(

What elitist BS. :roll:

Do calm down. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and no-one's opinion is worth less than yours. I happen to agree with the proposal of no proprietary drivers by default, and I find your remark offensive. I don't insult you, so please do not insult me, nor others. Thank you.

On another note, I have signed the petition.

[qamelian]

A) Nobody is saying you cant use blobs, just that we don't want them stuck under our throats by default.

It's a little late for that. According to what I've read, Ubuntu has included binary blobs of one kind or another from almost the very beginning. How do you think some wireless chipsets are supported out of the box. They're not all open source.

For this complaint to be valid, it should have been made much earlier in Ubuntu's development. Many of the same people I've heard complain about binary blobs for video cards don't seem to have any issue that the same situation is what keeps their wireless NICs operating in Linux.

[NESFreak]

don't they also include proprietary wifi drivers by default?

Maybe something like a 'pure' version of ubuntu would be something. They could be releasing both a Desktop CD and a Pure CD.

BTW i thought that when installing you'd be asked a question whether or not you'd like to install non GPL software so you could browse the web normally and watch video's and listen to music
(in this world the universe doesn't spins around vorbis/theora. They are just parts spinning around themselves.
There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.). I never knew it would be the default.

NESFreak

[.t.]

It's a little late for that. According to what I've read, Ubuntu has included binary blobs of one kind or another from almost the very beginning. How do you think some wireless chipsets are supported out of the box. They're not all open source.

For this complaint to be valid, it should have been made much earlier in Ubuntu's development. Many of the same people I've heard complain about binary blobs for video cards don't seem to have any issue that the same situation is what keeps their wireless NICs operating in Linux.
Fortunately, if people didn't say then, then we have a chance to change that now; as there is another of the same issue.

[utabintarbo]

Do calm down. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and no-one's opinion is worth less than yours. I happen to agree with the proposal of no proprietary drivers by default, and I find your remark offensive. I don't insult you, so please do not insult me, nor others. Thank you.

On another note, I have signed the petition.

If you wish to retain FOSS purity :rolleyes: , there is always gNewSense (http://www.gnewsense.org/). Ubuntu will go its way, other distros will go their way. In an extremely elastic market like that for Linux, petitions such as this are tantamount to whining. I hate whiners. :evil:

[ButteBlues]

If you wish to retain FOSS purity :rolleyes: , there is always gNewSense (http://www.gnewsense.org/). Ubuntu will go its way, other distros will go their way. In an extremely elastic market like that for Linux, petitions such as this are tantamount to whining. I hate whiners. :evil:
I agree.

If the idea of people actually having a working composite desktop out of the box scares you, there are other Debian-based distros more amenable to your philosophies.

[wdo_will]

Personally, I am against including the proprietary blobs by default. IMO, it would be nice if the installer could apt-get them optionally off the 'net before installing.

However, I probably will not sign the petition, as I find it to be a waste of time. I have thought about switching to gNewSense or just plain Debian, too, but in the end, this is not a big enough issue for me to do so and I will be staying with Ubuntu.

After all, Ubuntu is still much better than many other distros, like Linspire, Freespire, Xandros, Mepis, and the like. Heck, even FreeBSD (I think; feel free to correct me) includes some binary blog drivers by default (about the same level as Ubuntu, I believe).

[kripkenstein]

The petition has been posted to digg. (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Petition_No_to_Binary_Drivers_by_Default)

[Artemis3]

Current list of Free GNU/Linux distributions (http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions):

gNewSense (http://www.gnewsense.org/), a fully free GNU/Linux distribution based on Debian and Ubuntu and sponsored by the FSF
UTUTO-e (http://www.gnewsense.org/), a GNU/Linux distribution containing only free software. In both Spanish and English.
Dynebolic (http://dynebolic.org/), The instant bootable GNU/Linux
BLAG (http://www.blagblagblag.org/), blag linux and gnu
GNUstep (http://livecd.gnustep.org/), another instant bootable GNU/Linux distribution
Musix GNU+Linux (https://www.musix.org.ar/wiki/index.php/Documentation), a bootable GNU+Linux distribution, in an increasing number of languages.

While not GNU and linux, Openbsd (http://www.openbsd.org/) is another free os commited to never include Blobs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_blob), and instead, do their best effort to reverse engineer. Some WIFI chipsets were supported in Openbsd before anywhere else outside of windows drivers. It helps that they are in Canada, less stupid laws :P

There is also nouveau (http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/), an effort to reverse engineer nVidia 3d. These heroic efforts deserve our help and support.

[bobbybobington]

There should be a simple option during install to exclude proprietary drivers. There you go, all it takes is a little button and problem solved.

[Lord Illidan]

Personally, I find this a non-issue.

1. Let Mark Shuttleworth go about it in his own way. It is his distribution.

2. Do newbies really know how to install propietary drivers? Let's face it, the biggest issue with Linux is not the propietary software out there, but the lack of users. Let's make it easier for the newbies.

3. To make a compromise with users who feel no need for the propietary drivers, include an option to disable them in the installation.

Else, go to GNewSense or some other distro.

[thomashauk]

I hope you all relise that one of the blobs is for compatability with intel chips...

[Artemis3]

Too bad these same users will have serious trouble playing their videos and music. Won't they fare better if they started with Linux mint (http://lt.k1011.nutime.de/) instead?

Ubuntu can become an empty skeleton with the worst of two approaches.


PD: Yes, Intel has open 3d and closed wifi.

[jc87]

By the way i think besides adding our own names to the petition, he should add a list of arguments against blobs default inclusion, such as:

A) Technical problems using blobs by default such as:

- Possible security flaws

- Problems with medium/long term support (the ati proprietary fglrx driver for instance no longer supports gpu´s bellow the 9500 in the latest versions)

B) Ideological reasons

C) Problems with getting manufacturer support in the future ( i doubt we will have fully open source drivers in the future, but at least some basic support to have a barely working driver)

D) Alternatives for bundling them as default ( for instance we could a GUI for X that would allow the users to double-click to get the proprietary driver) that could be included in the spec common customizations (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonCustomizations) like restricted formats and others similar stuff ....

Also we could have an link to one of those online petitions websites, many users are too lazy to register on the wiki or dont know much about editing it;)

[awakatanka]

Not signed. There other distro's to fill youre no blobs needs like others say. If you wanted a real free blob distro you had choosen one of those and supported it.

[.t.]

But we love Ubuntu!

[ButteBlues]

But we love Ubuntu!
gNewSense is essentially Ubuntu free of blobs.

[PatrickMay16]

Hey guys! I have an idea!

How about we do this: distribute the binary blobs/drivers/whatever with the default installation CDs. During the installation process, the user is quickly informed on what binary blobs are, what hardware might need them, the fact that they are not open source, etc. Then they are given the choice to install them or not.

Then everyone's happy. Right?

[ago]

gNewSense is essentially Ubuntu free of blobs.
One of Ubuntu goals is to foster FOSS (see http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy ). We feel that the decision is not necessarily the right course of action in order to achieve the stated objective, and we believe the situation can be rectified with a little change, which is inconspicuous for the end-user.

What the proposal is not: it is not about forbidding the use of binary drivers or making them difficult to install. In fact according to the proposal, binary driver installation will be far easier than it is in Edgy. The proposal is simply about letting the users make an informed decision.

Finally saying "If you do not like it, go somewhere else" is never that polite, but it might have been passable if only Ubuntu was not a COMMUNITY distro, which it is... You will notice that on the poll, less than 1 user out of 3 agrees with the current specification.

[ago]

Hey guys! I have an idea!

How about we do this: distribute the binary blobs/drivers/whatever with the default installation CDs. During the installation process, the user is quickly informed on what binary blobs are, what hardware might need them, the fact that they are not open source, etc. Then they are given the choice to install them or not.

Then everyone's happy. Right?

That is exactly the idea behind the petition.

[Ireclan]

But what's to stop the developers from including these binary blobs irregardless of what the community feels?

[steven8]

But what's to stop the developers from including these binary blobs irregardless of what the community feels?

Nothing, but if we don't say anything, then we'll have just sat there. For those who feel strongly enough about it, this gives them an opportunity to make their feelings known.

[ButteBlues]

ago - It's also about providing a strong, usable operating system that is very user-friendly.

Shipping a crippled operating system because of morals is not the way to accomplish that. 'Nuff Said.

[K.Mandla]

Hi. I won't be signing the petition, but I admire what you're doing. I think it's important to express an opinion on a subject, and find like-minded individuals who are also willing to support the same idea.

Personally, I'd like to see what Ubuntu can do with the blobs before deciding one way or another. If I like it, I'll stay with Ubuntu. If not, I'll move to gNewSense, and be using Ubuntu anyway.

[macogw]

ago - It's also about providing a strong, usable operating system that is very user-friendly.

Shipping a crippled operating system because of morals is not the way to accomplish that. 'Nuff Said.
How is "hey you can either use the Free & Open Source drivers or the proprietary drivers from nVidia to run your video card. Which do you prefer? [open] [proprietary]" and then installing the selected drivers shipping a "crippled" OS?

[ButteBlues]

How is "hey you can either use the Free & Open Source drivers or the proprietary drivers from nVidia to run your video card. Which do you prefer? [open] [proprietary]" and then installing the selected drivers shipping a "crippled" OS?
How is disallowing such drivers installed by default, when the users who dislike them can just as easily not _use_ them rather than forcing the majority to go the extra mile to use them, not?

At the end of the day, Ubuntu wants to increase marketshare. Having these blobs installed is the way to get that done. Throwing needless, extra options in the face of potential new users over something as trivial as to what degree a minority believes in FSF-esque standards is not.

[macogw]

How is disallowing such drivers installed by default, when the users who dislike them can just as easily not _use_ them rather than forcing the majority to go the extra mile to use them, not?

At the end of the day, Ubuntu wants to increase marketshare. Having these blobs installed is the way to get that done. Throwing needless, extra options in the face of potential new users over something as trivial as to what degree a minority believes in FSF-esque standards is not.

But if they're installed by default you have to figure out how to remove them. With an option, each user gets what s/he wants.

[kuja]

I guess I make signature 18.

[spockrock]

Signed, even though I will end up using the proprietary drivers anyways.

[Polygon]

signed. Even though i will be using them, a person should be given a choice to even have the binary drivers on their systems on installation. A simple yes / no box on the installation screen would be all it would take.

[ButteBlues]

But if they're installed by default you have to figure out how to remove them. With an option, each user gets what s/he wants.
Frankly put, the people who care about such things are the people who _know_ how to remove them.

The same cannot be said true of even half the people who will be using binary drivers included by Default.

[spockrock]

Frankly put, the people who care about such things are the people who _know_ how to remove them.

The same cannot be said true of even half the people who will be using binary drivers included by Default.

this is very true.

[Buffalo Soldier]

signed. number 21.

[Artemis3]

ago - It's also about providing a strong, usable operating system that is very user-friendly.

Shipping a crippled operating system because of morals is not the way to accomplish that. 'Nuff Said.

Like Ubuntu is doing regarding multimedia playback?

The real cripling here is done by corporations not opening the hardware, and people like you who should be demanding them to open the thing you paid for so the community can support it. It is not just because of morals:



“Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech”, not as in “free beer”.

Free software is a matter of the users' freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. More precisely, it refers to four kinds of freedom, for the users of the software:

The freedom to run the program, for any purpose (freedom 0).
The freedom to study how the program works, and adapt it to your needs (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
The freedom to improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.



OpenBSD emphasizes security. It also emphasizes openness. All the code is there for all to see. Blobs are vendor-compiled binary drivers without any source code. Hardware makers like them because they obscure the details of how to make their hardware work. They hide bugs and workarounds for bugs. Newer versions of blobs can weaken support for older hardware and motivate people to buy new hardware.

Blobs are expedient. Many other open source operating systems cheerfully incorporate them; in fact their users demand them.

But when you need to trust the system, how do you check the blob for quality? For adherence to standards? How do you know the blob contains no malicious code? No incompetent code? Inspection is impossible; you can only test the black box. And when it breaks, you have no idea why.

Blobs can be 'de-supported' by vendors at any time.
Blobs cannot be supported by developers.
Blobs cannot be fixed by developers.
Blobs cannot be improved.
Blobs cannot be audited.
Blobs are specific to an architecture, thus less portable.
Blobs are quite often massively bloated.
This release, like every OpenBSD release, contains OpenBSD and its source code. It runs on a wide variety of hardware. It contains many new features and improvements. OpenBSD does attempt to convince vendors to release documentation, and often reverse-engineers around the need for blobs. OpenBSD remains blob-free. Anyone can look at it, assess it, improve it. If it breaks, it can be fixed.

[Chimes]

Signed. Number 23.

To include blobs - is it to win the battle and lose the war? All depends on your viewpoint.

Some people would say the other way around.

I say it's better to remove them. There was never any goal of linux to become popular. There's no need or reason that we have to dominate the desktop. The goal of most linux distributions was, and still is, to be a functional, free operating system.

Why should we give up? Why should we admit and confess that we have failed by removing the freedom part of the operating system for the functionality? Should we throw up our hands and say "No, you were right, we cannot make a working free system, we were fools to think that free software could make a good operating system"?

I say screw market share. I don't know about you, but I'm here because free software has worked so far me, and I'm not about to give up on it for fame. If we're going to make our software dependent on proprietary drivers now (for the sake of our users, of course), what makes you think the transition to freedom will become easier when we have even more users depending on us?

Do reverse engineering. Pressure hardware companies. I'll help out, if needed. But for god's sake, don't ***** your morals out.

[macogw]

There was never any goal of linux to become popular.
Right. Linus started it "just for fun," as the book is titled. It was for hackers, by hackers, with the point being any hacker can look at the code and hack around with it. The blobs stop that. You can't hack around with gibberish, but you can hack around with a bit of code and improve that code. Let's be like the OpenBSD guys and work more on reverse-engineering. That'll get better hardware support for users overall because the reverse-engineered drivers can be improved upon, while the blobs are stuck.

[Lord Illidan]

I say screw market share. I don't know about you, but I'm here because free software has worked so far me, and I'm not about to give up on it for fame. If we're going to make our software dependent on proprietary drivers now (for the sake of our users, of course), what makes you think the transition to freedom will become easier when we have even more users depending on us?

Do reverse engineering. Pressure hardware companies. I'll help out, if needed. But for god's sake, don't ***** your morals out.

If we compromise now, and increase our market share, we can then leverage open source demands in the future. At least, that's what I think.

Don't get me wrong and say : Lord Illidan hates open source and loves proprietary software. If there was an open source nvidia driver that gave me at least 60% performance of the propietary drivers, I would use it. And the current nouveau drivers are a gleam of hope. The same goes for wi-fi access.

But if I cannot use my system well because there are no sufficient open source drivers, then that becomes irrational, and locks me into either using only certain companies, or else locks me into not doing certain things, which actually curtails my freedom. See what I mean?

EDIT : Also, we cannot ignore market share. The moment we start ignoring market share is the moment we lose support from companies like IBM, HP, Red Hat, Novell, and heck, what about Canonical itself? Market share is important. We need more people using Linux if we are to attract more people to use it.

[Lord Illidan]

Right. Linus started it "just for fun," as the book is titled. It was for hackers, by hackers, with the point being any hacker can look at the code and hack around with it. The blobs stop that. You can't hack around with gibberish, but you can hack around with a bit of code and improve that code. Let's be like the OpenBSD guys and work more on reverse-engineering. That'll get better hardware support for users overall because the reverse-engineered drivers can be improved upon, while the blobs are stuck.

I am not against reverse engineering, in fact ,I think that they are pretty cool. But I am not going to wait for I don't know how many years with an unusable system while waiting for the reverse engineered drivers to show up. Of course, if I knew how to help, I would, but I am more interested in other sectors.

[kanem]

Frankly put, the people who care about such things are the people who _know_ how to remove them.

The same cannot be said true of even half the people who will be using binary drivers included by Default.
Well, the petition isn't asking for the blobs to not be be installed at all, it's asking for the installation to ask users whether they would like them installed or not. So people who want them but don't know how to install them manually will just have to click a 'yes' button. If anybody doesn't know how to do that, they have bigger problems than a lack of 3D drivers.

And to be honest, I won't always know how to install or uninstall the binary drivers. Things change. What I know about xorg.conf files will be useless in a few years when I hopefully won't have to know about such things. But I will know if the binary drivers are screwing stuff up like they do now. And I'm going to be pissed if I get buggy drivers by default that kill my USB after 15 minutes, forcing me to spend half an hour trying to find out what the open source drivers are called and what files I need to edit, all while using the frickin' touchpad.

Think of how much something like that is going to frustrate new users. Especially since they won't even know it's the blobs that are causing the problems.

[ButteBlues]

Well, the petition isn't asking for the blobs to not be be installed at all, it's asking for the installation to ask users whether they would like them installed or not. So people who want them but don't know how to install them manually will just have to click a 'yes' button. If anybody doesn't know how to do that, they have bigger problems than a lack of 3D drivers.

And to be honest, I won't always know how to install or uninstall the binary drivers. Things change. What I know about xorg.conf files will be useless in a few years when I hopefully won't have to know about such things. But I will know if the binary drivers are screwing stuff up like they do now. And I'm going to be pissed if I get buggy drivers by default that kill my USB after 15 minutes, forcing me to spend half an hour trying to find out what the open source drivers are called and what files I need to edit, all while using the frickin' touchpad.

Think of how much something like that is going to frustrate new users. Especially since they won't even know it's the blobs that are causing the problems.
I don't think I've actually ever heard an nVidia user go "OH GOD THIS SUCKS MY DRIVERS LET ME RUN A COMPOSITE DESKTOP AND PLAY GAMES AT GOOD FRAME RATES! :("

The only time I've seen blobs cause issues is through _user error_. Remove the possibility of Joe Sixpack screwing it up, and suddenly you have won another user.


Artemis3 - The problem therein being that no company is going to cave to such demands until we gain a good market share, and we can't gain a good market share by abiding by FSF-esque radicalism.

[mushroom]

Pre-installation is a good choice, because no one wants an ideology shoved in their face during the install process. Pre-installation of the driver, then a tasteful pop-up from the system tray upon first boot should be sufficient. No, this will not make open source driver developers stop working, because there is no choice. Their drivers do not work. They function as far as slow 2D operation goes, but that's not enough when there's 256 MB of VRAM sitting in the user's PC being wasted. No one should be offended because their inferior, non-functional drivers are being discarded in favor of superior, functional drivers. When those drivers become functional, then they certainly should be used in favor of the proprietary ones. Unfortunately, this is not the case, but it may become such if Nouveau gets off the ground before Feisty's release. If this interferes with your ideology, go run gNewSense.

To put it more succinctly: Don't want proprietary drivers? Don't buy proprietary hardware.

[kanem]

The only time I've seen blobs cause issues is through _user error_. Remove the possibility of Joe Sixpack screwing it up, and suddenly you have won another user.

Take a look around these forums. It's a fact that the proprietary drivers don't always work even when installed correctly.

[ButteBlues]

Take a look around these forums. It's a fact that the proprietary drivers don't always work even when installed correctly.
Which is due to _user error_.

People installing the wrong driver or installing a proprietary driver for a card model that isn't supported by that driver is not the fault of the driver makers.

By installing these drivers by default, we eliminate such user error.

[jc87]

Which is due to _user error_.

People installing the wrong driver or installing a proprietary driver for a card model that isn't supported by that driver is not the fault of the driver makers.

By installing these drivers by default, we eliminate such user error.

Error ..... i installed the RIGHT DRIVER at a friend pc a few months ago (nvidia , also edited manually the xorg.conf after the command to automatically configure it failed ) and still doesn´t work as it should...

I´ve been googling for a while and i think i may have discovered the possible problem ( i will deal with it next time i go to his house) but the fact is that i´m a somehow experienced user and hadn´t been able to fix it, so is not by installing it by default that will work...

Also there is OTHER SOLUTIONS besides default install, a GUI for xorg for instance that would allow the instalation would be an better solution, not sticking the driver down my throat for default.

[ButteBlues]

Error ..... i installed the RIGHT DRIVER at a friend pc a few months ago (nvidia , also edited manually the xorg.conf after the command to automatically configure it failed ) and still doesn´t work as it should...

I´ve been googling for a while and i think i may have discovered the possible problem ( i will deal with it next time i go to his house) but the fact is that i´m a somehow experienced user and hadn´t been able to fix it, so is not by installing it by default that will work...

Also there is OTHER SOLUTIONS besides default install, a GUI for xorg for instance that would allow the instalation would be an better solution, not sticking the driver down my throat for default.
Is it simply a compatibility issue between the driver and the card?

Installing by default will, as a result, cause better out-of-the-box operability for those drivers. So yes, issues could be avoided that way.

Haven't we gone over this before? If the thought of a blob makes you urinate in your pants, then Ubuntu is not, and hasn't ever been, the right distro for your morals.

[jc87]

Is it simply a compatibility issue between the driver and the card?

Installing by default will, as a result, cause better out-of-the-box operability for those drivers. So yes, issues could be avoided that way.

Haven't we gone over this before? If the thought of a blob makes you urinate in your pants, then Ubuntu is not, and hasn't ever been, the right distro for your morals.

A) I doubt that, after all IS a binary driver, no ubuntu-dev can fix it, only submit bug reports, and thoose are submitted with or without out of the box instalation.

B) I could use the ubuntu is not the right distro for you if you want binary drivers out of the box argument also, after all i can always fight to remove the other blobs from Ubuntu.

[macogw]

And to be honest, I won't always know how to install or uninstall the binary drivers. Things change. What I know about xorg.conf files will be useless in a few years when I hopefully won't have to know about such things. But I will know if the binary drivers are screwing stuff up like they do now. And I'm going to be pissed if I get buggy drivers by default that kill my USB after 15 minutes, forcing me to spend half an hour trying to find out what the open source drivers are called and what files I need to edit, all while using the frickin' touchpad.

Unless it went in as a .deb that I can apt-get remove, I have no idea how to remove a proprietary driver (which I doubt goes in like that anyway).

[ButteBlues]

A) I doubt that, after all IS a binary driver, no ubuntu-dev can fix it, only submit bug reports, and those are submitted with or without out of the box installation.

It's common knowledge that the more users providing bug reports, the smaller the amount of time before a fix is issued. If Nvidia, for example, gets hit with several hundred bug reports about their driver on Linux, they won't just blow it off - that's bad business.


B) I could use the ubuntu is not the right distro for you if you want binary drivers out of the box argument also, after all i can always fight to remove the other blobs from Ubuntu.

Except you're blatantly ignoring that Ubuntu has shipped some form of blob since it was created. The precedent exists, and they'll act upon it. There are other distros which use the same repositories that I think you might be more comfortable with.

[kanem]

Which is due to _user error_.

People installing the wrong driver or installing a proprietary driver for a card model that isn't supported by that driver is not the fault of the driver makers.

By installing these drivers by default, we eliminate such user error.
Why do you assume it's all user error? What, everyone in these forums having problems with graphics drivers even after they get them installed are just stupid or something?

No. I've been using this OS long enough to know how to properly install a graphics driver. The fact is the fglrx driver does not work perfectly with my laptop. And if some noob with my laptop model gets this driver installed by default they are not going to know how to fix it. They won't even know it's the driver that's causing their problems. They'll just blame it on Ubuntu or Linux in general.

[ButteBlues]

Why do you assume it's all user error? What, everyone in these forums having problems with graphics drivers even after they get them installed are just stupid or something?

You seem to assume that many users here know the difference between radeon/ati and fglrx... Fact of the matter is, there are many Joe Sixpack users who straight-up don't. Is that their fault? Should they be penalized for it? Of course not! But that doesn't change the reality of the situation.


And yes, while things _do_ go wrong, on occasion, the only way to ever get those bugs resolved is to bug report. Just saying "there are issues for some people" and doing nothing to give solid feedback to the driver maker won't accomplish anything. Sure, in the case of ATI, you might as well be screaming at a wall. But slight ATI for that; not the distro.


No. I've been using this OS long enough to know how to properly install a graphics driver. The fact is the fglrx driver does not work perfectly with my laptop. And if some noob with my laptop model gets this driver installed by default they are not going to know how to fix it. They won't even know it's the driver that's causing their problems. They'll just blame it on Ubuntu or Linux in general.

If a driver is known to work poorly or not at all with a given model, it should most obviously not be installed by default. The point of installing by default is to have a stable, composite desktop going - not an unstable one. In the noted situation, the opensource drivers should be default.

[kanem]

If a driver is known to work poorly or not at all with a given model, it should most obviously not be installed by default. The point of installing by default is to have a stable, composite desktop going - not an unstable one. In the noted situation, the opensource drivers should be default.
That's all well and good, but do you really think that the Ubuntu devs are going to thoroughly test ATI's drivers on every card to see if they work? They don't have the resources.

[ButteBlues]

That's all well and good, but do you really think that the Ubuntu devs are going to thoroughly test ATI's drivers on every card to see if they work? They don't have the resources.
There was already a project under way to properly document hardware that runs Ubuntu and such well.

Furthermore, ATI itself has a running list: here (http://ati.amd.com/support/driver.html).

[FyreBrand]

Unless it went in as a .deb that I can apt-get remove, I have no idea how to remove a proprietary driver (which I doubt goes in like that anyway).Of course it's a .deb that can be removed. When I install nvidia's proprietary driver I use the one in the repos. I don't use the experimental one.

Earlier you suggested offering a choice. I've said this before in these discussion and here it is again.

1. Default Intsall: If it's default (for the less technicilly inclined) then have the proprietary driver installed. Provide a "warning" message such that it is explained what type of driver will be installed with a pointer to the advanced option for a custom install.

2. Advanced Install: OFFER an option for ADVANCED install. Just as you can have the install process partition and format your hard drive or you can use the advanced mode and configure that yourself; this type of install process should be offered for video drivers. In the advanced install you would have the option to install either driver and also other options such as monitor model and characteristics.

If this petition was about improved usability then I would sign it, but it's not. It really appears that this is about people who have a certain philosophical bent making sure that they are heard disapproving of the idea. I love free software. I think forcing that ideal on the rest of the world is as bad as proprietary or drm'd software being forced on me. Freedom of choice for superior functionality is what drives me. I don't this this concept and Linux are mutually exclusive. I think this is especially true in Ubuntu.

[jc87]

It's common knowledge that the more users providing bug reports, the smaller the amount of time before a fix is issued. If Nvidia, for example, gets hit with several hundred bug reports about their driver on Linux, they won't just blow it off - that's bad business.



Except you're blatantly ignoring that Ubuntu has shipped some form of blob since it was created. The precedent exists, and they'll act upon it. There are other distros which use the same repositories that I think you might be more comfortable with.

I´m not ignoring it, after all what i was saying was that i can fight (and in some way i am doing it) to remove the already existing blobs, and to prevent the adding of new ones.

My opinion is still the same, let the work of blobs installation being deal with by the common customizations spec the same way all other non-free stuff is.

[kanem]

Furthermore, ATI itself has a running list: here (http://ati.amd.com/support/driver.html).
Well, my card is on that list (xpress 200), so there goes it's credibility as a list of cards that work perfectly with their driver.

[K.Mandla]

Well, my card is on that list (xpress 200), so there goes it's credibility as a list of cards that work perfectly with their driver.
Ditto that. I've worked with that 200 in the past, and it can be a real hairball.

[spockrock]

After spending some time in the beginner section and help, I can see why the devs/conical want to include the drivers, simply put the opensource drivers are failing those with newer ati and nvidia video cards. They don't use the alternate discs, live cds dont work, and even after the alternate disc xorg pretty much dies. I have yet to see an ubuntu live disc boot properly on my 7800gt, acctually wait, the edgy alpha 3 disc worked, if I booted in gfx safe mode.

[ButteBlues]

Well, my card is on that list (xpress 200), so there goes it's credibility as a list of cards that work perfectly with their driver.
So you propose denying default graphics drivers for ATI and Nvidia because one ATI card has issues with their driver and ATI is too ignorant to fix it?


Sounds more like a personal issue with ATI you should be taking up.

[pvdg]

I have just signed the petition. I don't think this should be taken as a "fundamentalist" crusade against binary drivers and other closed source, non-free software. I will also use them if I need to. I just don't think ubuntu should include them by default, due to its total commitment to free software. This is an excellent opportunity to educate new users on the difference between free and non-free, open and closed source.

[kanem]

So you propose denying default graphics drivers for ATI and Nvidia because one ATI card has issues with their driver and ATI is too ignorant to fix it?


Sounds more like a personal issue with ATI you should be taking up.
No, please don't put words in my mouth. I haven't proposed anything yet. Though if I did, I would propose exactly what's in the petition (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition) (have you read it?) which suggests the user should be asked at installation which drivers they want or make it very easy to switch from free to non-free, or vice versa, after the installation.

One reason for this (among many) is that installing the proprietary drivers by default is going to cause problems for some people, since the proprietary drivers do not work perfectly for all the cards they claim to support, as I've been trying to point out. Some of these people will be new to Linux and will not know how to solve the problems that this default installation causes.

[ButteBlues]

kanem - But by the petition, if a new user chose the non-free driver at a post-install pop-up, then wouldn't the same inherent issue of sometimes cards not working right still exist?

[FyreBrand]

No, please don't put words in my mouth. I haven't proposed anything yet. Though if I did, I would propose exactly what's in the petition (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition) (have you read it?) which suggests the user should be asked at installation which drivers they want or make it very easy to switch from free to non-free, or vice versa, after the installation.

One reason for this (among many) is that installing the proprietary drivers by default is going to cause problems for some people, since the proprietary drivers do not work perfectly for all the cards they claim to support, as I've been trying to point out. Some of these people will be new to Linux and will not know how to solve the problems that this default installation causes.The problem is that the free drivers don't work well for all cards either. The same "new to Linux" people will still have to configure xorg.conf by hand or at least go through the setup procedure. I think the best choice, if neither driver works for all cards, is not to have a default install, but a recommendation based on the card. If I still used an ATI card I might want to use the free driver since it always worked okay for me, but with my Nvidia card it doesn't work well at all. It seems the answer isn't as simple as one or the other in every case.

Oddly enough I found switching between the free radeon and the fglrx drivers to be more of a pain and more prone to malfunctions than the Nvidia and nv drivers. I think the more often the proper driver is installed at initial setup the better. If switching between driver types can be avoided at all it would be best.

[Muty]

I signed too, because I think it's important to let the new users know that they will use Closed-Source drivers.

Greetings from Germany,
Muty.

[3rdalbum]

Well, my card is on that list (xpress 200), so there goes it's credibility as a list of cards that work perfectly with their driver.

Huh? I'm using an Xpress 200 and it works fine as long as you install the driver from ATI's website (not the restricted-modules one from Dapper).

[ago]

Hi all, I hope you had nice holidays.

I was thinking about sending an email to the ubuntu dev mailing list by the end of the month. So if you have not signed yet hurry up and tell others to sign!

I also have a couple of requests.

I like a lot the dialog, but possibly the text might be modified to something like:


To enable additional functionality (3D acceleration), closed software must be installed. We discourage the use of closed software, click here to learn why (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverEducation). We try to provide free and open source software (www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy) alternatives whenever possible, but there are reasons (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ?highlight=%28criticism%29#head-b3df9b3b424c7c689ce1b7fae199e35b5f71ca81) why open software is not available in this situation. Do you want to proceed and install the closed software?
Yes, No

Hopefully the same type of message can be used in other contexts and not just for drivers.

I also do not particularly like the link to the BlobsByDefaultPetition. I understand and respect that people may have different opinions, but as mentioned, this is a petition not a forum, if you do not agree with it just do not sign it, no need to remember others in there that you dissent.

[Lord Illidan]

To enable additional functionality (3D acceleration), closed software must be installed. We discourage the use of closed software, click here to learn why [link]. We try to provide open source alternatives whenever possible, but there are reasons [link] why open source software is not available in this situation. Do you want to proceed and install closed software? Yes, NoI like this idea. That way, you educate them and give them their options too, and everyone is happy....supposedly.

But, will the closed source drivers be included on the disk, or will they have to be downloaded? Because if there is no internet access, how can they download the drivers?

[muep]

I think it would be no problem to have them on disk. Just let me choose not to install anything proprietary on installation, then I'm fine.

Anyways, it would be quite inconvenient to fetch wifi drivers from internet without working connection.

[ago]

But, will the closed source drivers be included on the disk, or will they have to be downloaded? Because if there is no internet access, how can they download the drivers?

I see is no harm in having the drivers on the CD, provided they are not installed on the HD unless the user is informed about it and makes an explicit decision. This is not about forbidding closed drivers, or complicating user lives, just to avoid silent installation by default of closed software.

[mips]

You have choices, if you dont like it use something else. Some distros are very allergic to blobs, use one of them. Theres also OpenBSD which is as anti blob as you can get, I'm currently installing it on my laptop to try out, wish me luck ;)

[Jussi Kukkonen]

Signed.


If we compromise now, and increase our market share, we can then leverage open source demands in the future. At least, that's what I think.

Sorry for being slow to catch this, but this is something I've wondered for as long as this argument has existed: What kind of leverage are you talking about?

Let's imagine a future where linux has become quite popular, and the overwhelming majority of users run several closed drivers (remember, linux is now popular so companies actually release drivers -- all closed of course, since this is accepted by the community). In fact this wealth of closed drivers means that most machines are not at all usable without blobs. In this future, what kind of leverage does the community have?

Maybe I am a pessimist but I think ATI&co have all the aces in that game. Personally I don't even want to play in that table.

[ago]

You have choices, if you dont like it use something else.
That's one option. But since Ubuntu is a community distro, the other option is to drive Ubuntu towards a set-up that we believe is more in line with Ubuntu's own philosophy (http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy)... ...and to the will of the community (where according to the poll less than 1 user out of 3 likes the new specification as it is).

That said the petition asks for a very small change: you are going to be preached about proprietary software anyway (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverEducation), all we ask is to preach users BEFORE installing anything, as opposed to preach them afterwards. A small change in practice, but an important one nevertheless, for several reasons.

[ButteBlues]

ago - Frankly, until that poll even includes the opinions of a majority of the supposed 8 million ubuntu users, it won't be the community's opinion.

[ago]

I have edited the dialog example

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=NoBlobsByDefault.png

I hope you like the new one. And keep signing!

[aysiu]

Current list of Free GNU/Linux distributions (http://www.gnu.org/links/links.html#FreeGNULinuxDistributions):

gNewSense (http://www.gnewsense.org/), a fully free GNU/Linux distribution based on Debian and Ubuntu and sponsored by the FSF
UTUTO-e (http://www.gnewsense.org/), a GNU/Linux distribution containing only free software. In both Spanish and English.
Dynebolic (http://dynebolic.org/), The instant bootable GNU/Linux
BLAG (http://www.blagblagblag.org/), blag linux and gnu
GNUstep (http://livecd.gnustep.org/), another instant bootable GNU/Linux distribution
Musix GNU+Linux (https://www.musix.org.ar/wiki/index.php/Documentation), a bootable GNU+Linux distribution, in an increasing number of languages. Where did you get that list from? Have you looked at the packages Blag includes (http://wiki.blagblagblag.org/50003_Packages)? It's practically the Multiverse.

[givré]

Where did you get that list from? Have you looked at the packages Blag includes (http://wiki.blagblagblag.org/50003_Packages)? It's practically the Multiverse.
I think it's the list of the FSF, but i might be wrong.

[FyreBrand]

I have edited the dialog example

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=NoBlobsByDefault.png

I hope you like the new one. And keep signing!I like your idea Ago. What do you think of having a button to install one driver or the other might be a little clearer than a yes/no option. So you would have the explanation and then two buttons below it. One says "Install Free Video Driver" the other could say something like "Install Commercial Driver". That way it is very clear:
1. That the user is installing a driver
2. Exactly which driver they're installing

I think the yes/no option is clear to a somewhat experienced user, but might not be to someone just mounting the learning curve.

I hope that doesn't come across as nit-picky. I just wanted to give some feedback and food for thought. I really like your idea. I like it especially because it is choice driven and I don't think it is exclusive.

[Lord Illidan]

Signed.


Sorry for being slow to catch this, but this is something I've wondered for as long as this argument has existed: What kind of leverage are you talking about?

Let's imagine a future where linux has become quite popular, and the overwhelming majority of users run several closed drivers (remember, linux is now popular so companies actually release drivers -- all closed of course, since this is accepted by the community). In fact this wealth of closed drivers means that most machines are not at all usable without blobs. In this future, what kind of leverage does the community have?

Maybe I am a pessimist but I think ATI&co have all the aces in that game. Personally I don't even want to play in that table.

Simple. The kernel developers can then announce that if the manufacturers don't release open source drivers, then Linux will stop working with closed source drivers, thus prompting a wave of people reverse engineering their drivers, or something.

Actually, you do have a point. My pc is unusable without closed source drivers, at least, for the way I want to use it (some 3D games and development).

[Artemis3]

It's common knowledge that the more users providing bug reports, the smaller the amount of time before a fix is issued. If Nvidia, for example, gets hit with several hundred bug reports about their driver on Linux, they won't just blow it off - that's bad business.

Ever heard of Internet Explorer?

Bad business is not opening the hardware, and they will face it soon enough. Contrary to what you say, its a very small minority of companies who don't open or document their hardware so that users can use it how they see fit. nVidia thinks you can't own the hardware but instead try to have you some sort of usage license experience where they decide what you can do and what you can not.

It is funny you talk about speed, i tried with Sabayon live DVD and having Beryl and junk enabled actually is slower than using 2d without window animations (gconf-editor /apps/metacity/general/reduced_resources). You just have to wait for the animation to complete, and this takes a precious second away from each operation.

And, you have to stand the nVidia spam in your face each time the thing loads. Wow, you just paid some hundred bucks and you get the priviledge of getting ads. They might as well lock the nvidia logo again in the corner and you will not be able to do anything about it.

This is not a race against Microsoft. You can keep using it if you love it so much, nobody forces you to not dual boot or have many machines. Your games will run happier. This is a matter of principles and freedom, those things you hate but which drive the community and made possible what you use right now.

The culprits are not those in the community, the culprits are those few corporations who want to ignore or go against us. You can't have a friendly attitude with those who want to chain you to their conditions. It is YOU who paid THEM money,

[Artemis3]

Where did you get that list from? Have you looked at the packages Blag includes (http://wiki.blagblagblag.org/50003_Packages)? It's practically the Multiverse.

If you follow the the first link you will see the source is the FSF ( http://www.gnu.org/links/ ). You are more than welcome to report any mistakes. It is curious you mention Multiverse, considering its a Fedora (rpm) based distro. I have never used Blag though.

Quickly reading the package list i don't spot any proprietary software in there. Don't mix patent issues; Ie. lame and xvid are free software projects, its the user responsability to obtain usage permisions from patent holders if they apply to the country they live. Ubuntu wants to apply US laws to the rest of the world by default, something very shameful on its own.

[Artemis3]

I like your idea Ago. What do you think of having a button to install one driver or the other might be a little clearer than a yes/no option. So you would have the explanation and then two buttons below it. One says "Install Free Video Driver" the other could say something like "Install Commercial Driver".

No, in that case it would be misleading, you can have commercial free (speech) software (such as RHEL) and free (beer) proprietary ones (like Opera). If you don't like yes / no then it would have to be free / proprietary.

[justin whitaker]

There are 500 distros active according to Distrowatch, and another 200 which are inactive. All have had various stances in regards to proprietary drivers: I'm sure there is another distro, nay, several distros, out there that are in line with your philosophy: gNEWSENSE, Ututo, etc.

For my part, I spend good money to get an Nvidia card, and I really want it to work without resorting to using Automatix/Easy Ubuntu, or messing with the stock drivers after every new install. The prop drivers will save me time, and headaches.

I respect your position, but I would also suggest that perhaps it's not as much of an issue as people make it out to be: as you all point out, there are ways to install it without making it a default, and I would point out the counterpoint, that prop drivers can be replaced/removed after the desktop is installed.

So no, I'm not signing.

[maniacmusician]

I'm pretty sure that they won't be installed by default. I saw something like this a while back and I thought the general consensus was that the user would be given a choice during installation.

[macogw]

Simple. The kernel developers can then announce that if the manufacturers don't release open source drivers, then Linux will stop working with closed source drivers, thus prompting a wave of people reverse engineering their drivers, or something.

Actually, you do have a point. My pc is unusable without closed source drivers, at least, for the way I want to use it (some 3D games and development).

There are people reverse engineering. Look at Nouveau. Loop at Open-BSD. They reverse engineer EVERYTHING. We just need to get more sreenigne working on graphics and wireless.

[mushroom]

And, you have to stand the nVidia spam in your face each time the thing loads. Wow, you just paid some hundred bucks and you get the priviledge of getting ads. They might as well lock the nvidia logo again in the corner and you will not be able to do anything about it.

What? A split-second NVidia logo before GDM starts is hardly spam. Also, did you know that you can turn it off? Yeah! The logo is completely optional!


The culprits are not those in the community, the culprits are those few corporations who want to ignore or go against us. You can't have a friendly attitude with those who want to chain you to their conditions. It is YOU who paid THEM money,

How is NVidia going against "us" (assuming that the Linux community holds one set of beliefs and one only)? They created a great driver. It may be proprietary, but it's still great, which is far more than what I can say about fglrx. Assuring that the hardware works is the first priority.

[Johnsie]

I'm not signing that petition... There is already a version of Ubuntu that only has free and open software. It's at: http://www.gnewsense.org/

[macogw]

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36761
By the way guys, check that out. A totally open-spec GPU so drivers are a breeze!

[esaym]

I like the way things are right now

[ago]

I'm sure there is another distro, nay, several distros, out there that are in line with your philosophy

Your philosophy??? No that is UBUNTU's philosophy: http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy

[ago]

I like your idea Ago. What do you think of having a button to install one driver or the other might be a little clearer than a yes/no option. So you would have the explanation and then two buttons below it. One says "Install Free Video Driver" the other could say something like "Install Commercial Driver". That way it is very clear:
1. That the user is installing a driver
2. Exactly which driver they're installing

I think the yes/no option is clear to a somewhat experienced user, but might not be to someone just mounting the learning curve.

I hope that doesn't come across as nit-picky. I just wanted to give some feedback and food for thought. I really like your idea. I like it especially because it is choice driven and I don't think it is exclusive.
Thanks for your suggestions,

There are different ways to go about open/closed drivers:


you can ask during installation whether to install open or closed drivers
you can ask after installation (i.e. preinstall the open driver and have a welcome balloon suggesting that some extra functionality can be enabled with closed software)
you can ask when the drivers are first needed (i.e. assuming there is a switch to turn 3D desktop on-off or a session during log-in, the first time you run that, you are told that you need some closed drivers)
you preinstall the closed drivers but educate the users afterwards (i.e. have a dialog at first boot with information on closed software)
you preinstall the closed drivers silently


The dialog in the petition is an example of 2 (and possibly 3), the current ubuntu specifications are aiming at implementing 4, your suggestion would better fit into 1 (which is also mentioned in the petition). Technically there is very little difference between 2 and 4: after you boot the first time, in both cases you see a dialog about open source software and closed drivers, the main difference is that in 2 you choose to install extra drivers after this step, in 4 they are already preinstalled. I.E. the only difference is that you have to click YES to have closed drivers installed. 5 is out of question anyway. Hopefully the same mechanism can be extended to other situations (codecs, firmware, closed software etc...)

[ago]

We passed the 100 signatures, if you agree I plan to submit the petition 2 weeks before feature freeze, i.e. on the 25th of January.

[Starchild]

Thanks for your suggestions,

There are different ways to go about open/closed drivers:


you can ask during installation whether to install open or closed drivers
you can ask after installation (i.e. preinstall the open driver and have a welcome balloon suggesting that some extra functionality can be enabled with closed software)
you can ask when the drivers are first needed (i.e. assuming there is a switch to turn 3D desktop on-off or a session during log-in, the first time you run that, you are told that you need some closed drivers)
you preinstall the closed drivers but educate the users afterwards (i.e. have a dialog at first boot with information on closed software)
you preinstall the closed drivers silently


The dialog in the petition is an example of 2 (and possibly 3), the current ubuntu specifications are aiming at implementing 4, your suggestion would better fit into 1 (which is also mentioned in the petition). Technically there is very little difference between 2 and 4: after you boot the first time, in both cases you see a dialog about open source software and closed drivers, the main difference is that in 2 you choose to install extra drivers after this step, in 4 they are already preinstalled. I.E. the only difference is that you have to click YES to have closed drivers installed. 5 is out of question anyway. Hopefully the same mechanism can be extended to other situations (codecs, firmware, closed software etc...)

I find number 3 makes the most sense. Number 4 is quite annoying hence I signed the petition.

[Piggah]

Signed...


While I use the proprietary drivers, I still don't believe that any non-free software should be installed by default. It should be entirely up to the end user whether s/he wants to use non-free software at all.

[FyreBrand]

We passed the 100 signatures, if you agree I plan to submit the petition 2 weeks before feature freeze, i.e. on the 25th of January.Good luck with the petition. I would really like option 1 pushed. Having the proper driver (that is whatever the user chooses) initially installed will really help avoid many xorg.conf reconfigure problems.

In any event, good luck. You did a good job with the idea, discussing it with the forum community, and trying to find a solution that will work for people using either driver. Nice job.

[ago]

Thanks, but I could use some help, like digging and spreading the word ;) ...

[ago]

Last 3 days to sign, then I will send an email to the devs.

[ago]

As announced, today I have submitted the petition to the ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list. You can follow the discussion here:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.devel.discuss/240

Thanks to all of you

[pvdg]

As this thread seems to be open still, I think some of might like to know that Feisty will after all NOT activate proprietary video drivers by default. Here is the link to the announcement, in case you haven't read it yet:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2007-February/000098.html

The reasons invoked are technical, but the opposition from part of the community is mentioned. I think we may say we have won a "battle", but the "war" goes on...

[prizrak]

As this thread seems to be open still, I think some of might like to know that Feisty will after all NOT activate proprietary video drivers by default. Here is the link to the announcement, in case you haven't read it yet:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2007-February/000098.html

The reasons invoked are technical, but the opposition from part of the community is mentioned. I think we may say we have won a "battle", but the "war" goes on...

With any luck noveau driver will be ready by Feisty+1 or whenever Canonical decides the "unstable" software is "stable" enough.

[cowlip]

.

[MattSMiddleton]

First off all of the people who are telling those upset about this decision to stop whining and switch distros if they aren't happy are missing the point of FLOSS IMO. All FLOSS is built on the community, if the community is unhappy about a decision they shouldn't just use something different, they should say something about it. IMO if you use a distro and like it, such as ubuntu, and they decide something that you as part of the community are unhappy about, you have an obligation to say something about it. Second to all of those people who are using the "we already use blobs so this is a moot point" that is a terrible argument. Just because Ubuntu is already implementing a philosophy that people don't agree w/in some areas of it's OS, that doesn't mean that if they try to do it again everyone should just roll over and let it be. The whole point of this is to keep the idea of freedom of choice. The included blobs support NICs, with out them there's no internet in GNU/Linux, which is something that people NEED in a computer, w/o the Video Driver blobs, it's harder to implement 3d graphics something that most users could live without. That's why I'm all about making it a choice, b/c to me that's what GNU/Linux is all about Freedom.

[DARKGuy]

I agree with MattSMiddleton :).

I like things the way they are right now. If they don't want to include propietary drivers by default that's okay, but at least allow them to be installed by the user by external packages or similar stuff (like NVIDIA's installer, which is awesome... just download, run, voilá). Prohibiting propietary modules is CRAZY and if anyone here is thinking about getting that idea into Ubuntu, please get a brain check as soon as possible :-/ .... before it's too late and don't want to see yourself in the IRC channel or in the forums with a 10-page thread asking how can you enable your new wifi/video card ^_^.

Propietary stuff may not look good to some, but to others, it works, and it's all that matters for me (And before you flame me, Windows is an exception to me, because Ubuntu works out of the box in all the setups I've tried it, it has an awesome package managing system and countless features that Windows doesn't have (and maybe never will)).

Drivers are a necessity, both for allowing other users to migrate to Linux because hardware works out of the box, and improving gaming experience too (the gaming market is a big one containing thousands and thousands of users. I don't think Ubuntu or the entire Linux community would like to let those poor souls keep living in the non-free world... (?) :P)

[SlayerMan]

@OP: Use gNewSende:

http://www.gnewsense.org

It's exactly what you want (i.e. Ubuntu without any binary blobs).

Apart from that, I don't share your oppinion. GNU/Linux should come up with a stable driver API/ABI without licensing hassles, so that hardware vendors and users can actually chose if they want free or proprietary drivers/software. Nothing prevents free drivers from being developed if proprietary drivers are embraced. And no, this certain "could be"-document that a lot of people seem to be referring these days simply doesn't hold up.

For certain devices, it is simply impossible to offer all parts of the driver as free software, e.g. when you have to meet certain regulatory limitation (WiFi hardware) or product warranty.

[givré]

/me is going to unsubscribe to this thread before the flamewar restart

[zetetic]

Ubuntu is now biting the hand that feeds it... Shame on it.

Binary blobs advocates, which are using free applications, are just traitors and hypocrites, and should be banned of our community.

cheers
Zetetic

[ago]

I do not think there is any need to troll and take extreme positions, since this is not what the proposal is about. I have said it before and I will repeat it: the proposal is a reasonable compromise to have both EASE OF USE AND FREEDOM. It is not one or the other. Any discussion presenting the choice as an either/or decision is misleading. Please read the petition carefully first. Those who suggested us to use other distros, have missed the point. This is not about OUR use of Ubuntu, I agree 100% with MattSMiddleton, see his post above on the topic. And yes, I think the petition is still relevant.

[prizrak]

DarkGuy, MattSMiddleton,
Just an FYI, none of the blobs are installed if you don't have hardware that requires it. Also nv driver sux pretty badly it's noticeably slow even in 2D running nothing but Gnome.

zetetic,
Great approach to freedom you got homie..... This is very simple, you don't want binary blobs in your distro? Don't use hardware that requires them, support open solutions from the ground up. nVidia, AMD, Broadcom, whoever else does not give a damn what driver you use. They want their hardware sold clean and simple. If you keep buying their hardware you keep supporting manufacturers that will not cooperate with FLOSS community.

Ubuntu has a well defined hardware functionality clause in it's charter. It was stated time and time again that a FLOSS alternative WILL be used when possible. Pretty much all distros (even Debian) include some blobs be it firmware or drivers. gNewSense is the only one that does not (and consequently would most likely not work on my system).

Moreover Feisty will not be including binary video drivers for various reasons but will make it much easier to install. So you are pretty much just barking on a moon (I just made it up) as there is nothing to complain about.

[ago]

Moreover Feisty will not be including binary video drivers for various reasons
As far as I know, that was only postponed, therefore this petition is still valid to make sure that blobs are not included by default in Feisty+n.

I have always found the "firmware is already in" to be a very poor argument. The fact that another person crosses with a red light is no justification for you to cross with a red light too. If anything, also the firmware should be installed after an adequate notification.

That does not mean that the users must be hassled with 500 confirmation dialogs, it is very well possible to group everything together. The important bit it is to notify the users, at least once, that the manufacturers they are choosing are not supportive of the software they are enjoying.

Since the users will be using such software for free, I do not think that asking them to read a couple of lines and click one button, will be too much trouble or spoil their experience (also because they will be shown a dialog anyway...).

It is also important to let users choose what to do AFTER the appropriate information has been provided.

[saulgoode]

Owing to NVidia's own software licensing (http://www.nvidia.com/object/nv_swlicense.html), it would be completely inappropriate for Ubuntu to install those drivers without presenting the terms of that license to the user for agreement (this is, to my knowledge, a universal condition of all "freely distributed" proprietary software).

Regardless of whether or not you are opposed to binary drivers, it is not within the installation program's jurisdiction to decide that the user agrees to terms without being presented those terms. The user MUST be offered the choice to accept or refuse those terms.

[darkhatter]

you've won you can stop talking........

[glotz]

Good petition. Got my john hancock.

(The actual dialog needs some work.)

[zetetic]

As far as I know, that was only postponed, therefore this petition is still valid to make sure that blobs are not included by default in Feisty+n.

I have always found the "firmware is already in" to be a very poor argument. The fact that another person crosses with a red light is no justification for you to cross with a red light too. If anything, also the firmware should be installed after an adequate notification.

That does not mean that the users must be hassled with 500 confirmation dialogs, it is very well possible to group everything together. The important bit it is to notify the users, at least once, that the manufacturers they are choosing are not supportive of the software they are enjoying.

Since the users will be using such software for free, I do not think that asking them to read a couple of lines and click one button, will be too much trouble or spoil their experience (also because they will be shown a dialog anyway...).

It is also important to let users choose what to do AFTER the appropriate information has been provided.

Well said. I agree with you.
Unfortunately Ubuntu wants to make that choice for us, the users...
This sounds familiar... doesn't it?
Who needs another Microsoft?

We must show the yellow card to Mark Shuttleworth. And if he insists on this "error", then we must show him the red card!

I refuse to sell my soul to the devil.

[prizrak]

As far as I know, that was only postponed, therefore this petition is still valid to make sure that blobs are not included by default in Feisty+n.

See I disagree with that, the thing is that Canonical has stated many times they don't want binary drivers and will only do it if there is no other way to get 3D working. We are all basically talking about nVidia here. For that the Nouveau driver is being developed, considering the speed at which open source moves it's very possible that by Feisty+1 feature freeze we will have working drivers at least working enough to give some basic 3D abilities.

I have always found the "firmware is already in" to be a very poor argument. The fact that another person crosses with a red light is no justification for you to cross with a red light too. If anything, also the firmware should be installed after an adequate notification.

I hate redlights and half the time run em anyways (if there are no cars) but aside from that. The point of the argument (that you might have missed) is that Ubuntu already has binary blobs by default. They are mostly in the shape of firmware for certain devices (I think there is one or two binary drivers for WLAN or something) but they are already in it. So basically, if you were OK with binary blobs before then why b*tch about it now? Sure 3D is not necessary for desktops (tho the nv driver is pretty slow in 2D as well) but a blob is a blob doesn't really matter what it's used for it's still not FLOSS.

That does not mean that the users must be hassled with 500 confirmation dialogs, it is very well possible to group everything together. The important bit it is to notify the users, at least once, that the manufacturers they are choosing are not supportive of the software they are enjoying.

Since the users will be using such software for free, I do not think that asking them to read a couple of lines and click one button, will be too much trouble or spoil their experience (also because they will be shown a dialog anyway...).

It is also important to let users choose what to do AFTER the appropriate information has been provided.
That I completely agree with, it's up to the user to decided what's gonna be on their machine and a dialog explaining non-free software with an OK/Cancel prompt at the beginning of installation would not detriment from the user experience. As long as those blobs are removable afterwards of course (hey we can all change our minds).

Well said. I agree with you.
Unfortunately Ubuntu wants to make that choice for us, the users...
This sounds familiar... doesn't it?
Who needs another Microsoft?
What does MS have to do with it? Can you not switch away from Ubuntu to gNewSense? There is no vendor lock-in, Canonical makes it's own decisions based on w/e they percieve to be right. They have explained their stance and the reasoning behind it quite well. If you perceive it to be an error no one is stopping you from jumping distros, moreover if you are so much for freedom then don't use proprietary closed hardware and you won't have to deal with binary blobs. Intel is releasing a standalone GFX card so it's not like your only choices are AMD/nVidia now.

[givré]

I think i'll also unsubscribe myself from this thread, this is really going nowhere...

[ago]

See I disagree with that, the thing is that Canonical has stated many times they don't want binary drivers and will only do it if there is no other way to get 3D working.
We need to define what "working" means. Do we mean 2D support or 3D support? Is 3D support necessary for ALL users so that you can assume they will accept blobs in exchange of 3D effects? I have no issue with installing binary drivers to enhance the user experience, but only AFTER informing the user and let him decide. Is informing the users such a big deal?


So basically, if you were OK with binary blobs before then why b*tch about it now?
Who told you I was OK with that before? Did I write in anywhere that I was OK? No I did not. In fact I was NEVER OK with that, and I would have preferred to be NOTIFIED, at the very least. There are many reasons for that:

1) because I do not like being treated as an idiot,
2) because I like not having the security and privacy of my machine comprimised by code nobody can check which runs and is installed without my knowledge (and nope, you cannot just uninstall it, once the code has been executed with kernel privileges, the damage is done),
3) because I like to know if I have happened to pay someone who has an hostile attitude toward FOSS and affects me negatively both as a FOSS developer and as a FOSS user. I do not particularly fancy shooting in my own foot, so next time, I will try to avoid such manufacturer.
4) because I like to see how far we can walk with our own legs,
5) for ideological reasons,
etc, etc, etc....

Those are personal concerns, IN ADDITION, there are concerns regarding Ubuntu as a COMMUNITY project of which I feel part of. Things like:

1) what message do we send out?
2) Are we sticking to our initial philosophy (http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy )?
3) Are we incentivizing the right people/projects?
4) Is this the right strategy in the long term?
etc etc tec...

You may of course disagree with all of the above, but the simple question is: why should I be deprived of the possibility to make an INFORMED DECISION? All this to spare me the trouble of a single click?


Can you not switch away from Ubuntu to gNewSense?

No I can't. As mentioned above there are 2 types of issues with the use of blobs, personal ones, and distro-level ones. Since this is a COMMUNITY distro, I do not have to accept it as it is. If I feel something is wrong with it, I try to change it.


Canonical makes it's own decisions
Maybe you missed it, but Ubuntu is not Canonical's.


They have explained their stance and the reasoning behind it quite well.
This is Ubuntu's stance: http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/philosophy

Where they say: "we make a specific exception for some 'drivers' which are only available in binary form, without which many computers will not complete the Ubuntu installation".

Therefore the threshould is COMPLETING THE INSTALLATION. A far shot from 3D eyecandy...

And the situation is COMPLETELY different. In the case of an essential driver, refusing the blob leads to LESS open source, since you would be forced to install a 100% commercial system. In the case of a non-essential driver, refusing the blob leads to MORE open source. Therefore when you talk about firmware as a justification for 3D drivers, you are mixing apples and pears.

On top of that, even if giving the choice of installing ESSENTIAL blobs is pointless, informing the user is never pointless. So I agree with the current stance of installing ESSENTIAL binaries by default but I disagree with the prassis of installing the blobs silently without informing the users.

[prizrak]

Who told you I was OK with that before? Did I write in anywhere that I was OK? No I did not. In fact I was NEVER OK with that, and I would have preferred to be NOTIFIED, at the very least. There are many reasons for that:

Sorry I didn't mean YOU specifically I meant it in general (shoulda clarified that)


We need to define what "working" means. Do we mean 2D support or 3D support?

I thought I made it clear, but in this particular case 3D support is what I'm talking about.

Is 3D support necessary for ALL users so that you can assume they will accept blobs in exchange of 3D effects?
I would say 3D support needs to be there if the hardware can do it. However I would say that with nVidia cards (and really these are the only ones that would need the driver) the nv driver is VERY slow in straight up 2D.

Maybe you missed it, but Ubuntu is not Canonical's.
That's like saying that Linux is not Torvald's. Sure there are many people involved but in the end it's HIS decision of what is merged into the kernel. It's the same with Canonical in the end it's Shuttleworth who will decide what goes into the final product. So like it or not Ubuntu is a Canonical product and in the end it's pretty much up to them to make it into what they want it to be and up to you to use it.

1) because I do not like being treated as an idiot,
2) because I like not having the security and privacy of my machine comprimised by code nobody can check which runs and is installed without my knowledge (and nope, you cannot just uninstall it, once the code has been executed with kernel privileges, the damage is done),
3) because I like to know if I have happened to pay someone who has an hostile attitude toward FOSS and affects me negatively both as a FOSS developer and as a FOSS user. I do not particularly fancy shooting in my own foot, so next time, I will try to avoid such manufacturer.
4) because I like to see how far we can walk with our own legs,
5) for ideological reasons,
etc, etc, etc....
All your issues are exactly the same for either, like I said before a binary is a binary doesn't really matter if it drives your video card or network.

Where they say: "we make a specific exception for some 'drivers' which are only available in binary form, without which many computers will not complete the Ubuntu installation".

Therefore the threshould is COMPLETING THE INSTALLATION. A far shot from 3D eyecandy...
Your opinion is that 3D is not essential and that's fine. As I said before though, the nv driver gave me a noticeably slower desktop than the nvidia-glx one. We are not talking 3D we are talking 2D here. I would also disagree with OGL desktop being nothing but eyecandy, it has a number of non-eyecandy benefits that I listed numerous times in different threads.

On top of that, even if giving the choice of installing ESSENTIAL blobs is pointless, informing the user is never pointless. So I agree with the current stance of installing ESSENTIAL binaries by default but I disagree with the prassis of installing the blobs silently without informing the users.
Seems we agree on the key issue. I will never have a problem with informing the user, be it "essential" or "non-essential" software the user has the right to know.

Ubuntu was never meant to be very customizable so I can see why the decision to install silently was made. (Don't have to agree with it but I do understand it)

[cantormath]

I agree with mark.

[prizrak]

Well all you "FLOSS or die!!!" folk can rejoice. I just updated my Feisty install. Upon reboot (new kernel) there was a little icon next to my clock that looked like a circuit board. On mouse over it said "proprietary drivers in use" and clicking it brought up GKSUDO password prompt and a little window. In the window it said "nVidia driver" and two check boxes. Enable and In use, when clicking on enable a little explanation window popped up telling me that the driver is necessary for desktop effects and full 3D capabilities but that it cannot be supported, admittedly I didn't read all of it, not sure if it explained the whole proprietary issue. Since this is not a fresh install I don't know if it would come up on first boot as the system would see my GeForce but there is your non-intrusive user education. I hope this debate can be finally put to rest.

[Lord Illidan]

Well all you "FLOSS or die!!!" folk can rejoice. I just updated my Feisty install. Upon reboot (new kernel) there was a little icon next to my clock that looked like a circuit board. On mouse over it said "proprietary drivers in use" and clicking it brought up GKSUDO password prompt and a little window. In the window it said "nVidia driver" and two check boxes. Enable and In use, when clicking on enable a little explanation window popped up telling me that the driver is necessary for desktop effects and full 3D capabilities but that it cannot be supported, admittedly I didn't read all of it, not sure if it explained the whole proprietary issue. Since this is not a fresh install I don't know if it would come up on first boot as the system would see my GeForce but there is your non-intrusive user education. I hope this debate can be finally put to rest.

This does seem like a good idea. Screenshot?

Also, when you first install Feisty, will we be able to get the nvidia/nv/ati/fglrx drivers of our choice by just pressing a button? That would really be good functionality! Also, IMHO, it should detect whether said card is compatible with the above. My card was unsupported by nv for a long time (Geforce 6800 vanilla version)...and Ubuntu never wanted to start X, I had to stay configuring xorg.conf myself :)

[SlayerMan]

The found solution seems to be a good compromise that everybody can live with.

[Lord Illidan]

The found solution seems to be a good compromise that everybody can live with.

I hope so too.

[prizrak]

This does seem like a good idea. Screenshot?

Also, when you first install Feisty, will we be able to get the nvidia/nv/ati/fglrx drivers of our choice by just pressing a button? That would really be good functionality! Also, IMHO, it should detect whether said card is compatible with the above. My card was unsupported by nv for a long time (Geforce 6800 vanilla version)...and Ubuntu never wanted to start X, I had to stay configuring xorg.conf myself :)

Didn't think to take a screenshot and it only comes up once. It also broke my config somehow had to run nvidia-xconfig on reboot. Although I think it was because it was an already established system.

I have no clue if you get to choose your driver on first install as I said this is a live install so it was merely updated. If it does offer a driver to choose on first boot it would be VERY nice.

[ago]

Hi all,

I see that the spec has been resumed for gutsy and is on the agenda of the coming Ubuntu meeting in Sevilla.

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-sevilla

Therefore the petition is as necessary as before, please consider signing it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition

[kripkenstein]

Hi all,

I see that the spec has been resumed for gutsy and is on the agenda of the coming Ubuntu meeting in Sevilla.

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-sevilla

Therefore the petition is as necessary as before, please consider signing it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition

Very good that you noticed this.

There is some hope - small, but it is there - that Nouveou will be usable in time for Gutsy. That would remove the problem, at least for NVidia users. Here's hoping. Meanwhile, I join you in encouraging people to sign the petition :)

[Eddie Wilson]

What about new users that are just installing Ubuntu for the first time and then are the questions that pop up on blobs and such? They don't know what the distro is talking about and might not know which is the best way to go. And a little distro intro info will not help them with these questions. Its all about the new users. Anyway thats what it should be about. Without new users you have NO users.
Eddie

[prizrak]

Hi all,

I see that the spec has been resumed for gutsy and is on the agenda of the coming Ubuntu meeting in Sevilla.

https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-sevilla

Therefore the petition is as necessary as before, please consider signing it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NoBlobsByDefaultPetition

Gutsy will come out in 5 flavors. Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu and Freebuntu (OK I dunno if that's gonna be the actual name of it). Basically according to the announcement from Mark S. they will be working with gNewSense people to create a 100% libre version of the distro. This kinda negates any need for a petition, now you have the choice of an official Libre version if you care so much about it.

[rubinstein]

Mark said in an interview that there will be a ubuntu distribution without any binary blobs and proprietary drivers, a new "totally free" flavor.

From http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=2845484
derStandard.at: While announcing Gutsy Gibbon you also announced a new "totally free" flavor of Ubuntu. What's the reasoning behind that?

Mark Shuttleworth: Well the first thing is that that new flavor of Ubuntu won't just insist on freedom for software. In many cases there is software and content in distributions today - in Ubuntu and other distributions like Debian - which is not free. So for example very few pieces of firmware ship their source code, so this new flavor of Ubuntu won't ship any firmware unless we can also ship the source code for it.

Mark Shuttleworth: In regards to content: There are kinds of content out there - like PDFs and so on - which are not editable but where there is an editable source document effectively, and we won't include this content unless we include the source document. Things like video content: Well, an edited video is nice, but what about the source materials? So this version of Ubuntu will not include any video footage unless it also includes either the source content or access to the source content. By this we are extending the concept of "freedom" to cover not just applications software, all the way down to firmware and content which is further than any other distribution goes.


So I think the main distribution will contain these blobs, users who don't want these can use the new totally free flavor.
Edit: Ah.. prizrak was faster :-)

[saulgoode]

... Its all about the new users. Anyway thats what it should be about. Without new users you have NO users.


It's not all about the new users; nor should it be. There are these people out there called "developers" who work on creating, maintaining, and improving the software. Without developers you have no SOFTWARE.

[ago]

Gutsy will come out in 5 flavors. Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu and Freebuntu (OK I dunno if that's gonna be the actual name of it). Basically according to the announcement from Mark S. they will be working with gNewSense people to create a 100% libre version of the distro. This kinda negates any need for a petition, now you have the choice of an official Libre version if you care so much about it.

In practice, the only difference is whether the binary driver education dialog (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/binary-driver-education) is shown BEFORE or AFTER the drivers are being installed. You will still be shown an education dialog, and you will still have to click one button to close the dialog, so not much changes for the user.

I, with many others, argue that the education dialog has to be shown beforehand, since being shown a dialog ex-post, when you have no chance to choose, does not make much sense. Moreover showing the dialog beforehand has a deeper meaning: it implies that open source is the default here and that blobs are second class citizens, which is how thing should be in a distro which is what it is because of thousands of people that have contributed their time to avoid blobs.

This is not really about what I, as a user, want to use, and it is not about ease of use. It is about what message Ubuntu, as a community distro, should send out. So no, the fact that there are ubuntu flavors without blobs does not change anything.

It is a small change in practice, that will NOT affect usability or appeal, but that will set the record straight... It all boils down to whether the information dialog has to be shown before or after the blobs are installed. Whether you are allowed to make an informed decision, or whether you are only informed about a decision taken on your behalf.

[Anthem]

I love the idea of no binary blobs by default...

In the Gusty Gnu. That's what it's there for.

[glotz]

Will GG be a LTS?

[Hex_Mandos]

No.

[prizrak]

In practice, the only difference is whether the binary driver education dialog (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/binary-driver-education) is shown BEFORE or AFTER the drivers are being installed. You will still be shown an education dialog, and you will still have to click one button to close the dialog, so not much changes for the user.

I, with many others, argue that the education dialog has to be shown beforehand, since being shown a dialog ex-post, when you have no chance to choose, does not make much sense. Moreover showing the dialog beforehand has a deeper meaning: it implies that open source is the default here and that blobs are second class citizens, which is how thing should be in a distro which is what it is because of thousands of people that have contributed their time to avoid blobs.

This is not really about what I, as a user, want to use, and it is not about ease of use. It is about what message Ubuntu, as a community distro, should send out. So no, the fact that there are ubuntu flavors without blobs does not change anything.

It is a small change in practice, that will NOT affect usability or appeal, but that will set the record straight... It all boils down to whether the information dialog has to be shown before or after the blobs are installed. Whether you are allowed to make an informed decision, or whether you are only informed about a decision taken on your behalf.

I still see no problem. There is really no such thing as an uninformed user that installs Ubuntu or any flavor of Linux. The dialog in Feisty allowed me to install the driver and then enable it. I already had the driver installed so I didn't really need to do anything.

The message is very clear. Ubuntu supports Free software and is willing to make certain concessions for better user experience. Debian does exactly the same thing, it includes binary firmware with no code available and no one is making a fuss about it. I mean seriously Canonical will be using resources, that it could have used to work on something else, to create a 100% libre distribution (to the point of not shipping non editable documents) and you are still not satisfied.

This is how Ubuntu is and have been for a while. It tries to provide for some major preference. If you prefer KDE you get Kubuntu, if you like XFCE you get Xubuntu, if freedom is what you seek you get GNUbuntu (or Freebuntu or w/e else they call it).

The website is the first thing the user sees and that has to be designed in a simple and informative way that highlights differences between Libre and Gratis software and what the limitations are. This is more than enough for the interested to make an informed decision. If you choose Ubuntu over GNUbuntu under such terms you are implicitly agreeing with having binary blobs. It's like getting a driver's license means you have agreed to follow traffic laws.

[Hex_Mandos]

Seriously, we should concentrate on freeing more people, and then letting them decide how much freedom they need. Feisty does tell the user the disadvantages of installing proprietary drivers, but I'm happy that I can install them with minimal fuss. After all, I bought my hardware to use it, and to do so I need drivers, blobby or not.

[DARKGuy]

Seriously, we should concentrate on freeing more people, and then letting them decide how much freedom they need. Feisty does tell the user the disadvantages of installing proprietary drivers, but I'm happy that I can install them with minimal fuss. After all, I bought my hardware to use it, and to do so I need drivers, blobby or not.

Better couldn't haven't been said. Kudos to you =D> =D> =D>

[Hex_Mandos]

Thanks. It's just that zealotry is counter productive: I'm wholly for people having a 100% free desktop if they want that, but with me and others it takes a few proprietary bits to make us more comfortable than in 100% proprietary OSes. If I can't have a proprietary driver easily, I'm more likely to switch back to Windows. I seriously don't want that, and if I had a free alternative that does what I need, I'd switch to it. For instance, if a youtube-compatible Gnash is released, I'll probably switch. But until the free alternative is good enough, I'm stuck with Adobe's horrible plugin.