Wow. I like something Bill Gates said.

[MetalMusicAddict]

Originally found on Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/).

CE-Oh no he didn't! Part XXI : Gates tells consumers to ditch DRMed tunes, buy CDs (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/14/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-xxi-gates-tells-consumers-to-ditch-dr/)

Posted Dec 14th 2006 9:09PM by Cyrus Farivar (http://www.engadget.com/bloggers/cyrus-farivar/)
Filed under: Portable Audio (http://portableaudio.engadget.com/)

For our latest episode of CE-Oh No He Didn't, (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/04/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-xx-warner-music-ceo-fairly-certain/) we turn to a perennial (http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/22/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-ix-gates-watches-pirated-videos/) favorite (http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/22/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-xviii-gates-sez-sony-bricks-would-s/): Bill Gates. At a recent blogger event (read: junket) up in Redmond, Gates apparently told the audience that DRM (http://www.engadget.com/tag/drm) has "huge problems" (despite the fact that his company is one of its biggest proponents). Bill's a smart guy and his belief in DRM's suckiness isn't all that shocking, but even we were taken aback when he suggested picking up a freshly wrapped compact disc instead of pointing your interests towards his own company's music store, or in his words: "People should just buy a CD and rip it. You are legal then." Say, doesn't the RIAA seem to disagree with Mr. Gates' assessment, given that it still views ripping CDs has being sorta, um, illegal? And doesn't Microsoft go out of its way to break precedent by ponying up cash on Zune sales to RIAA cartel commander Universal Music (http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/09/universal-music-get-fee-for-every-zune-sold/)? We realize there's only so much dogfooding one can do before going off the deep end, and we don't necessarily expect Bill to agree with every decision Microsoft makes. But what gets us here is that this is such a subtle and tacit admission of defeat at the hands of the record industry. The man DOES carry a Zune, and the man does actually listen to music on it, but maybe he doesn't realize that Microsoft could have held the power to strike a blow in the RIAA's armor (http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/27/an-open-letter-to-microsoft-why-you-shouldnt-kill-fairuse4wm/) and change things for the better for consumers -- Zune carrying consumers, like even he.

Read http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/newwindow.gif (http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/12/14/bill-gates-on-the-future-of-drm/)

I really wonder what he feels about lossy music. I actually think the Zune might do pretty well for itself if it played the WMA Lossless format. The only way I will ever buy music online is if it lossless.

[BarfBag]

I refuse to admit whether I agree with him or not. :mrgreen:

[d3v1ant_0n3]

I actually have quite a lot of respect for Ol' Bill. He's a very good businessman, a great philanthropist and has, on occasion, come out with some very good remarks.

I would much rather buy a cd than download the album (even drm free)- you can choose the format/bitrate you want to rip it to and you can even *gasp* listen to it on things that don't support mp3s!

I can see where the industry (read RIAA) is coming from with DRM, but they've done it in a very silly way. It won't cut down on piracy (people will get the album on cd, rip it to mp3 then upload it- all it takes is one person to do that), and many tech savvy consumers shun drm'd files completely.

My GF's quite substantial collection of downloaded (drm'd) music on her windows box is pretty much the only thing preventing her from wanting to use linux, incidentally.

[Ben Sprinkle]

What's a DRM. Don't tell me to look it up.

[PartisanEntity]

I looked it up for you, all you have to do is read it :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Rights_Management

[gh0st]

Doesn't the Zune add DRM to tracks even if they were DRM free when you put them on the player???

I was listening to the This Week In Tech podcast and they were saying that anything sent over the Zune wireless link automatically gets DRM put on it and the receiver can only play the track 3 times. I don't know if this is true but it sounds a bit scary to me.

I'm a musician and if I sent a track I had made and owned the rights to from my Zune to a friends Zune they would only get 3 plays before it distroyed itself. Is this true???

I don't have a Zune, I don't want one and I'd have trouble even describing what they look like. So appologies if this is all rubbish and not true. Maybe someone can clarify this. Thanks

[Ben Sprinkle]

So DRM is that new MS gay protected crap they put on thier music now?

[MetalMusicAddict]

I hope the Zune gets RockBox (http://www.rockbox.org/)'ed. I played with one and its actually pretty nice hardware-wise.

[Sammi]

..."People should just buy a CD and rip it. You are legal then." Say, doesn't the RIAA seem to disagree with Mr. Gates' assessment, given that it still views ripping CDs has being sorta, um, illegal?

To my best knowledge the answer is both yes and no to this question.

No:
It is of course illegal to make copies and redistribute them to other people who didn't pay the rightful owner for the music or other copyrighter material in question.

Yes:
But it is legal to take backups of your music. you are then free to use the copy as the active medium while storing the original for safekeeping. For example you could rip the music on to your computer and then transfer it to your Zune, Ipod or other music player, while keeping the original CD on a shelf, safe from harmful scratches - all as long as it's only for personal use, that is ;)

Well. That's how I have come to believe it works. Others might know better and there might be huge legal differences between countries.

[Lord Illidan]

However, let's not forget that if Bill Gates gets fined by the RIAA he does have money to pay them with...whereas we normal humans don't.

[Spif]

I have yet to forgive Bill for calling open-source people modern communists.

Other than that though, I don't hold any grudges against him. Steve Ballmer, however...

[MetalMusicAddict]

..."People should just buy a CD and rip it. You are legal then." Say, doesn't the RIAA seem to disagree with Mr. Gates' assessment, given that it still views ripping CDs has being sorta, um, illegal?


To my best knowledge the answer is both yes and no to this question.

No:
It is of course illegal to make copies and redistribute them to other people who didn't pay the rightful owner for the music or other copyrighter material in question.

Yes:
But it is legal to take backups of your music. you are then free to use the copy as the active medium while storing the original for safekeeping. For example you could rip the music on to your computer and then transfer it to your Zune, Ipod or other music player, while keeping the original CD on a shelf, safe from harmful scratches - all as long as it's only for personal use, that is ;)

Well. That's how I have come to believe it works. Others might know better and there might be huge legal differences between countries.
The question mentions nothing about distribution so how is it yes and no? :)

I have yet to forgive Bill for calling open-source people modern communists.
I agree with his statement. I think "open-source people" have alot in common with communists. Come on, we're a "community" :) But thats all off topic.

[DoctorMO]

No what bill gates said was 'communist' as in Marxist, Leninist authoritarian governments. I mean he could have called us socialist or anything else.

My complaint against Bill Gates is that he claims I shouldn't release MY code under GPL because it prevents him from stealing it, because all open source code is made by universities and thus is paid for by taxes and thus should be freely exploitable. how dare he claim I get tax money from the usa and then how dare he presume what I should release my code under and that I'm not playing fair by using the GPL.

[prizrak]

RIAA would love it if it were not possible to listen to one thing on more than one player. If they could they would make each CD play only on the device it was originally played on. They will tell you it's illegal to do otherwise regardless of what the law says. The law actually says that it is illegal to DISTRIBUTE copyrighted material whether for monetary gain or gratis. It says nothing about you getting it. So if you buy a CD and rip it as long as you don't give the CD to someone and retain the MP3's or distribute the MP3's you are legal. In fact even if you download MP3's and don't distribute them you are still legal. If you look at all RIAA cases people were sued for distribution, i.e. RIAA agents would download music from them.

[MetalMusicAddict]

Lets not turn this into a big RIAA debate. ;) I just dont to turn this in yet another of those threads.

[ComplexNumber]

i was relieved to read this:

In the UK it is illegal to make personal copies of CDs, although the music industry has made clear it will take no action against people copying their legally bought CDs to their computers or music players.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6182657.stm


no change for me or anyone else, really, because thats what everyone does here.



seems like the BPI are a tad more flexible than the RIAA.

[BarfBag]

I think the Zune is crap. I used one and much prefer the tight, sexy iPod. Of course, I prefer .ogg compatible players over the iPod.

[j3cakes]

as this is the Cafe.....


I have yet to forgive Bill for calling open-source people modern communists.

well,.. actually, what he said was:



from news.com: here (http://news.com.com/Gates+taking+a+seat+in+your+den/2008-1041_3-5514121-4.html?tag=st.next)

Q: In recent years, there's been a lot of people clamoring to reform and restrict intellectual-property rights. It started out with just a few people, but now there are a bunch of advocates saying, "We've got to look at patents, we've got to look at copyrights." What's driving this, and do you think intellectual-property laws need to be reformed?

A: No, I'd say that of the world's economies, there's more that believe in intellectual property today than ever. There are fewer communists in the world today than there were. There are some new modern-day sort of communists who want to get rid of the incentive for musicians and moviemakers and software makers under various guises. They don't think that those incentives should exist.


so he never actually called open-source people communists. Having said that, though, there are a lot of similarities between the Ubuntu philosophy and the basic tennets of communism (ignoring, for a minute, the considerable brain-washing campaigns of successive governments against communism.)

Few of us on these forums could write the Ubuntu kernel for ourselves so it falls to others who donate their time and efforts for the betterment of the community.

oh,.. and a rich South African to finance it all..... though I'm guessing he probably isn't a communist either.. :)

[equal]

So DRM is that new MS gay protected crap they put on thier music now?

I'm fairly certain that DRM is completely unbiased to people's sexuality, in fact. It'll screw you either way ;)

[lyceum]

WoW! Bill is going against iPod? Right after the Zune came out! That is so odd! Who would have thought... :)

I wonder how this will affect the Microsoft Music selling site? Or if they will not put the anti-pirite stuff on Vista? Or if all this is for marketing or...

[drFUNK]

I'm fairly certain that DRM is completely unbiased to people's sexuality, in fact. It'll screw you either way ;)

Hahahahaha. Very funny and true.

[Xzallion]

So DRM is that new MS gay protected crap they put on thier music now?

DRM is not Microsoft specific. Microsoft Windows is just on of a few platforms they are enforcing DRM on. I do beleive that there is DRM on Mac also. Then theres the music devices like the IPod and Zune...

I put my money where my mouth is, and refuse to buy DRM "protected" music. I only buy cd's at concerts, and prefer to find legal free alternatives.

[FyreBrand]

Hmm. Why would Bill say not to download DRM music and buy CD's instead? I think it's because it would crush Apple. iTunes downloads far outweigh any other DRM enabled music download service. Apple is making megabucks on it. Microsoft is making next to nothing on DRM downloads and they would lose nothing on the deal. On the other hand it would cripple Apple.

Notice how he doesn't mention anything about DRM file management akin to what's coming up in Vista?

[lyceum]

Hmm. Why would Bill say not to download DRM music and buy CD's instead? I think it's because it would crush Apple. iTunes downloads far outweigh any other DRM enabled music download service. Apple is making megabucks on it. Microsoft is making next to nothing on DRM downloads and they would lose nothing on the deal. On the other hand it would cripple Apple.

Notice how he doesn't mention anything about DRM file management akin to what's coming up in Vista?

I just can't see why anyone would buy a song that can only be used on one companies product. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you buy from iTunes, can't you only use iTunes or iWhatever to listen to in, unless you burn it to a CD and rip it? If you want an iPod, great! Get one, but at least you can put whatever songs from wherever on the thing, right? You are right though about Bill's motives. Talk about calling the kettle black!

[FyreBrand]

I don't buy DRM music or online music at all. So I don't know how the transfer of iTunes purchased songs works. I do know that the Zune option is much more restrictive in a similar manner to purchased eBooks in that they are definitely tied to hardware.

I rip my own CD's to my hd at home and listen with Amarok. At work I or when I'm using the Windows partition I use VLC and listen to streaming radio.

[Cyvros]

I believe that's the wisest piece of advice ever to come out of a Microsoft exec. (Remember Ballmer's "Windows" incident involving throat surgery?)

Mind you, if I recall correctly, what Bill is recommending is perfectly legal now here. I hope it stays that way - why buy what you have already?

[djlyx]

I hope the Zune gets RockBox (http://www.rockbox.org/)'ed. I played with one and its actually pretty nice hardware-wise.

I didnt know about rockbox, thanks for providing the link ;)

[seijuro]

Doesn't the Zune add DRM to tracks even if they were DRM free when you put them on the player???

I was listening to the This Week In Tech podcast and they were saying that anything sent over the Zune wireless link automatically gets DRM put on it and the receiver can only play the track 3 times. I don't know if this is true but it sounds a bit scary to me.


Yes it's true I read several articles in various places about the Zune's "features" Moreover they also were saying that even a couple second partial play counts as one of the 3 which is pathetic.

[dbbolton]

People should just buy a CD and rip it.

and then he said, "so you can put music on your zune."

[k1001001]

To my best knowledge the answer is both yes and no to this question.

No:
It is of course illegal to make copies and redistribute them to other people who didn't pay the rightful owner for the music or other copyrighter material in question.

Yes:
But it is legal to take backups of your music. you are then free to use the copy as the active medium while storing the original for safekeeping. For example you could rip the music on to your computer and then transfer it to your Zune, Ipod or other music player, while keeping the original CD on a shelf, safe from harmful scratches - all as long as it's only for personal use, that is ;)

Well. That's how I have come to believe it works. Others might know better and there might be huge legal differences between countries.
I'm a Recording Industry major at Middle Tennessee State University, and we were told at the end of last spring semester that now even ripping CDs for a backup is viewed as illegal by the RIAA. They used to allow this, but now for some reason, they don't. What Bill Gates said is actually illegal activity. I still do it though.

I've always viewed downloading songs as no big deal. I think downloading one song is about as illegal as taking a penny out of the change swap at the gas station when you don't need one. Technically, you are stealing, but it's not really going to amount to much. I think this year's sales should have shown the RIAA that consumers aren't all dirty rat thieves, especially when decent music comes out.

This year alone, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_in_music), at least 27 albums have gone platinum, and nearly double that have gone gold. This doesn't count how many albums have also gone multi-platinum. James Blunt has gone 6x platinum, and the Chili Peppers are nearing 5x. This also does not count music sold this year that didn't come out in 2006, nor the exploding market in digital sales. Some albums have gone gold or platinum through digital sales alone. I think the industry has had a very good year, especially compared to years past, and I don't think they really have any room to complain about downloading any more.

So do I think downloads are inhibiting the industry? Not at all. Of course they do lose some profits that would be made by people downloading entire albums instead of buying them, but I think 90% of people who seriously listen to music just go out and buy the CD instead. I think these numbers show proof of that.

I agree with Bill Gates. DRM'ed files are just too much trouble to put up with. You bought the song. You should do with it as you please. Instead, you are limited to how many computers you can play it on, what device or player you can play it on, or how many listens you get before your files self-destructs like some kind of Mission Impossible briefing. I think ripping CDs is the best legal way to enjoy your music. Except it's not legal anymore.

[kylevan]

is it illegal in that the RIAA pouts and says people are bad, or is it illegal according to law? big difference there.

Not that I live in the US, but I don't even HAVE p2p programs installed on my computer, besides a bittorrent client to download linux ISO files. I guess since I rip all my CDs, I better not come to the States.

Maybe the defective by design people should have a big CD rip-fest out front of RIAA headquarters? It'd be pretty funny.

[vayu]

well,.. actually, what he said was:

There are some new modern-day sort of communists who want to get rid of the incentive for musicians and moviemakers and software makers under various guises. They don't think that those incentives should exist.

By saying open source participants and advocates deny incentives to create music, movies and software, he is saying/meaning that the only incentive to create is capital (money). He is incapable of understanding the incentives of community, pride, a sense of accomplishment, altruism and love of ones work (which are just some of the motives) that drive open source production. There are incentives in life that drive people other than capital. It's sad that so many people are on that level. I personally believe that the root cause of much of our social and environmental ills come from that paradigm.

[EdThaSlayer]

Could this be a secret plot for Bill Gates to lure people into thinking that he is the good guy now?
If this is true, then it is pretty cool.

[3rdalbum]

Some things to note:

Even though the Zune puts DRM onto the tracks that it shares, it is still illegal to use the music-sharing feature for music under a commercial license. You are still making a copy of the audio and giving the copy to your friend, while keeping the "original". Illegal.

The legality of the Zune DRM-protected tracks could also be under question. Applying a "3 plays" DRM could be construed as changing the license. You do not own the works, so you may not legally change the license that they are distributed under. Illegal.

Any music distributed under a license that prohibits DRM (for instance, the forthcoming GPL v 3) will be illegal to share with the Zune's wireless feature. Illegal.

[Sirin]

*removed*

[rlozano]

what a good statement by Bill to make MS sensational and keep people wondering and eventually try their product/s! typical B.G.! :-)

[j3cakes]

He is incapable of understanding the incentives of community, pride, a sense of accomplishment, altruism and love of one's work..... There are incentives in life that drive people other than capital......

oh, I don't know. He has a pretty good track record when it comes to charity. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has, in the dozen or so years since its inception, given away a staggering amount of money.

from here (http://www.gatesfoundation.org/MediaCenter/FactSheet/)
Statistics (to 09/2006)
Number of employees: approximately 300
Endowment: $31.9 billion
Total grant commitments since inception: $11 billion
Total 2005 grant payments: $1.36 billion

In 2005, 70% of their grants went to global programs in health and other areas.

Now, there have been (and still are) problems with MS software but there have been (and still are) problems with Ubuntu, Unix, MacOS and Linux. I'd even bet that, if Ubuntu was as widespread and popular (and had to be as numpty-friendly) as windows, you'd see a similar number of security issues.

but my mate's nan has a windows PC that helps her keep in touch with her grandkids all over the world. My 65 year old mum has a windows box for the same reason. True, they could both have Ubuntu but the idea of them squinting at a terminal screen and trying to paste in commands found on a specialist forum,.. hmm not sure that'd really work for them.

Microsoft, lead by Gates, may have belted three shades of browny substance out of pretty much every standard they've taken aim at and who could ever really forgive him for saying that "the internet won't take off. it's pretty much dead. now, our subscription-based network is alive and really taking off" (what was the stupid thing called? was it msnet? I can't remember) but they've helped millions around the world do a thing called home computing. They can plug in their digital cameras and email the pickies to their relatives around the world and they can open IM clients and converse real-time with people anywhere and all of this on an accessible and widely-used platform.

so, while capital might be Microsoft's primary interest, it's a company and it wouldn't survive very long if it wasn't. In fact, it could very probably be sued by its investors (who also make money) if it didn't. Gates is a business man and he didn't get to be a billionaire by chance.

No billionaires do.

[davarino]

(W)e were told at the end of last spring semester that now even ripping CDs for a backup is viewed as illegal by the RIAA. They used to allow this, but now for some reason, they don't. What Bill Gates said is actually illegal activity. I still do it though.

RIAA can say whatever they want about what is legal or not. They (RIAA) can "allow" nothing.

The courts decide the law. And the courts will decide (and have decided) based on statutes.

The statutes in the US are quite clear that backups of copyrighted works (except of DVDs) do not violate copyright as long as the backups are not used concurrently with originals.

Billy was not encouraging an illegal activity, just an activity that the RIAA would rather that we not have the freedom to do.

This freedom of ours, incidentally, is worth publicizing and exercising. Failure to exercise rights has often built a serious precident to eventually allow their abrogation. (History is rife with this.)

[Linuxratty]

Doesn't the Zune add DRM to tracks even if they were DRM free when you put them on the player???

Yes.

[k2t0f12d]

Originally found on Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/).

CE-Oh no he didn't! Part XXI : Gates tells consumers to ditch DRMed tunes, buy CDs (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/14/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-xxi-gates-tells-consumers-to-ditch-dr/)

Posted Dec 14th 2006 9:09PM by Cyrus Farivar (http://www.engadget.com/bloggers/cyrus-farivar/)
Filed under: Portable Audio (http://portableaudio.engadget.com/)

For our latest episode of CE-Oh No He Didn't, (http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/04/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-xx-warner-music-ceo-fairly-certain/) we turn to a perennial (http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/22/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-ix-gates-watches-pirated-videos/) favorite (http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/22/ce-oh-no-he-didnt-part-xviii-gates-sez-sony-bricks-would-s/): Bill Gates. At a recent blogger event (read: junket) up in Redmond, Gates apparently told the audience that DRM (http://www.engadget.com/tag/drm) has "huge problems" (despite the fact that his company is one of its biggest proponents). Bill's a smart guy and his belief in DRM's suckiness isn't all that shocking, but even we were taken aback when he suggested picking up a freshly wrapped compact disc instead of pointing your interests towards his own company's music store, or in his words: "People should just buy a CD and rip it. You are legal then." Say, doesn't the RIAA seem to disagree with Mr. Gates' assessment, given that it still views ripping CDs has being sorta, um, illegal? And doesn't Microsoft go out of its way to break precedent by ponying up cash on Zune sales to RIAA cartel commander Universal Music (http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/09/universal-music-get-fee-for-every-zune-sold/)? We realize there's only so much dogfooding one can do before going off the deep end, and we don't necessarily expect Bill to agree with every decision Microsoft makes. But what gets us here is that this is such a subtle and tacit admission of defeat at the hands of the record industry. The man DOES carry a Zune, and the man does actually listen to music on it, but maybe he doesn't realize that Microsoft could have held the power to strike a blow in the RIAA's armor (http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/27/an-open-letter-to-microsoft-why-you-shouldnt-kill-fairuse4wm/) and change things for the better for consumers -- Zune carrying consumers, like even he.

Read http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadget.com/media/newwindow.gif (http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/12/14/bill-gates-on-the-future-of-drm/)

I really wonder what he feels about lossy music. I actually think the Zune might do pretty well for itself if it played the WMA Lossless format. The only way I will ever buy music online is if it lossless.

What Gates said is totally legal. To buy a copy of a CD is legal and to rip it and use the ripped data to listen is fair use. The R.I.A.A. have not yet pursued legal action that I am aware of against this practice. It does not support infringing activities in any way. It also doesn't support Microsoft's digital music store, or the green party, who might be concerned about advocating the increased sale of merchandise that also promotes more non-biodegradable rubbish instead of using electronic transfer and clean power.