Kids don't need computer lessons

[mips]

http://www.csir.co.za/websource/ptl0002/pdf_files/news/csir_in_the_news/2006/september/31_kids_don't_need_computer_lessons.pdf

I could have told them that a long time ago...

[gerowen]

I was burnin' up MS-DOS at 5 before I even knew what RAM was, it's not hard to sit down and figure things out if you've got a will to learn.

[slimdog360]

I remember all those computer lessons about how to use a word processor and stuff like that. It was completely ridiculous.

http://www.csir.co.za/websource/ptl0002/pdf_files/news/csir_in_the_news/2006/september/31_kids_don't_need_computer_lessons.pdf
linkified

[mips]

Be beauty of kids is that they are very curious/inquisative and have just about no fear !

For some odd reason we learn fear as we grow older, which is a bad thing in a lot of cases.

[beercz]

Kids also don't need to be told how to:


Program a VCR;
Use all the features of digital TV;
Use SMS, MMS and every other feature on a Mobile Phone;
Set digital watches;
How to become an expert at video games, including find all the cheat codes;
Bypass parental control software;
Open child proof medicine bottles;



And probably tons of other stuff too, especially stuff that their parents cannot do!

Over to you guys ......

[Stew2]

My son turns 6 in January. He is a lot more proficient with computers than a lot of adults I know. Could probably show his teachers a few things :D .

[hkgonra]

My son turns 6 in January. He is a lot more proficient with computers than a lot of adults I know. Could probably show his teachers a few things :D .
My son's third grade teacher said my son was awesome on computers. He used to enter her grades for her in the database and she said she never had to call IT to fix any problems for her because my son fixed them all.

[matthew]

My four year old is sitting in the other room using my old computer that I put Edubuntu on. She can turn it on, find Childsplay, Tuxpaint, gCompris or PotatoGuy by herself and play most of the games. Astounding.

[PhilJ]

My Grandaughter Lauren age 8 has no trouble getting to grips with Ubuntu.I asked her if she wanted her windows machine back and she said noooooooooooooo! She scrounged a modem from her uncle (we are waiting for broadband) and away she went. Only trouble is I now have to book internet time :-D

Philj

[Brunellus]

our computer lessons were a lot more theoretical: This is a computer. It has these parts. This is Input. This is Output. What parts handle input? What parts handle output?

Of course, this was when computers were relatively rare, so the thought was (presumably) we should know about computers.

Now, computers are everywhere, and so the thought is that people should know how to operate them. Unfortunately, this really boils down to pedantic button-pressing. Result? Kids these days who take "computer lessons" might know how to operate MS Word, but can't tell the difference between RAM and ROM, or what an OS does, or what input or output are.

I'm not 1337 by any measure, but I would say that my rather more vague lessons (relatively) early in the PC era have been much more transferrable. I always fall back to those elementary understandings of what bits of the computer do, and those basic functions are really no different on MS-DOS, Windows NT, Linux, or whatever. With at least the basics in hand, I'm a lot better positioned to understand why each OS does things the way it does.

Computer lessons these days are only making users dumber. Worse, they erect a needless division between "hackers" and "users," where in real life, there's a much smoother continuum.

[matthew]

@Brunellus: I agree completely.

[thomasaaron]

My wife's desktop runs Windows, and mine--of course--runs Ubuntu. She's kind of scared of linux and doesn't want me to teach her anything about it.

Interestingly, my 9-year old daughter has taken it upon herself to check out the Ubuntu computer and has figured out the Internet and all of the games on it. My 11 year old son is using to research his homework assignments, etc...

I think my wife is just a tad embarrassed by this, so, every once in a while I force her to let me show her how to do something with Linux.

[d3v1ant_0n3]

When I was at college, I did A-level Computing Sciences. The vast majority of the 1st year (2 year course) was theoretical. The history of computers, the way they work on a software- and hardware level. Our tutor didn't want to teach us to use Office etc, to vaguely quote her 'load Office, press F1 for help'. Kids really don't need to learn how to use computers these days (oh hell, I used the phrase 'these days'...I'm getting old:( ), they are surrounded by electronic devices, and has been said before, they are incredibly proficient in learning how to use them.

My GF's 11 year old is hopeless with the hardware side of computers, and doesn't really understand how they work. But he can make maps for Unreal, has started learning to model objects for Garry's Mod (for Half-life 2), and is slowly learning to program. He gets incredibly bored in his mandatory IT classes at school!

[IYY]

Kids certainly don't need classes to teach them how to use MS-Word, Powerpoint or computers in general. However, programming (in a simple procedural language like BASIC) and computer engineering classes (basically, how a computer works, what are the components inside, teach them how to make simple devices and have them actually build something) can be taught as early as 7th grade.

[lazyart]

However, programming (in a simple procedural language like BASIC) and computer engineering classes (basically, how a computer works, what are the components inside, teach them how to make simple devices and have them actually build something) can be taught as early as 7th grade.

That's when I started, and I'm now 37.

[DoctorMO]

that's the problem i found, my generation is the one that watched this happen while in high school (uk)

At first we had BBC Micros, little machines and we went into computer class and learned about logical flow, programming and other various things. ok so not hardware but at least it was better than what came latter.

The windows erra, then we got lectures about how to open word files and how these were the only tools we ever needed to know.

That's about the time I started college, a little unusual at 13 years old but I was board with my it classes that I simply had to find something better. evening courses can be quite fun too, programming, hardware, 3d design.

It's more about the environment that a child is brought up in, I know lots of children who have computers at home and hardly do anything creative on them. oh they know how to load games but they're not teaching themselves anything at all. now give a child a command line, then you will see magic.

[mips]

our computer lessons were a lot more theoretical: This is a computer. It has these parts. This is Input. This is Output. What parts handle input? What parts handle output?

Of course, this was when computers were relatively rare, so the thought was (presumably) we should know about computers.

Now, computers are everywhere, and so the thought is that people should know how to operate them. Unfortunately, this really boils down to pedantic button-pressing. Result? Kids these days who take "computer lessons" might know how to operate MS Word, but can't tell the difference between RAM and ROM, or what an OS does, or what input or output are.

I'm not 1337 by any measure, but I would say that my rather more vague lessons (relatively) early in the PC era have been much more transferrable. I always fall back to those elementary understandings of what bits of the computer do, and those basic functions are really no different on MS-DOS, Windows NT, Linux, or whatever. With at least the basics in hand, I'm a lot better positioned to understand why each OS does things the way it does.

Computer lessons these days are only making users dumber. Worse, they erect a needless division between "hackers" and "users," where in real life, there's a much smoother continuum.

I have to agree there. I taught myself basic on a friends C64 and I did not even have my one comp. My parents got me a apple clone (POS), I got programming books for it. Before long I was involved in peek & poke screwing around with registers etc.

Next comp was a Amiga 500. Did basic again (Which was MS basic btw), next step was motorola 680x0 assembly language. Thing is in those days computers were a hobbyist/hacker thing. I was like 16yrs old on the Amiga. The documentation was also very low level, which is not a bad thing. C or C++ was a mjor step up and i never got involved there. I dabbled a bit in pascal but that was the end of my programming experience.

Fair enough computers only came later for my generation but still, today kids just use windows and run setup etc.

[Lord Illidan]

I guess kids brains are so ready to absorb stuff that they can learn computers right away...

And we adults (well, I am almost 18 now :( ) try to stop this. We dish out ECDL certificates like hell, which don't teach anything. My sister took the ECDL certificate for a bunch of dosh, and now she uses Open Office on my Ubuntu pc, and goes on well.

[bobbybobington]

All they ever really taught at my school was how to correctly type, and how to effectively use search engines. They were pretty simple things, but let me tell you they make a world of difference. Our school has pretty good IT, they have mostly macs and thank goodness they have firefox on the windows box's. But I got to agree that "teaching" a program usually does more harm than good. Schools stress "critical thinking" in all departments, but they often overlook it when it comes to computers.

[Choad]

we had an acorn in my primary school, and i was already pretty good with computers when they said "dont be affraid to experiment with them" talking mostly to the kids that didnt touch the computers, but i took that as th best excuse ever for messing about with system files. i broke the mouse within half an hour by renaming the driver file i think

fun times

i was disapointed that i could no longer get to asteroids tho

[linux_kid]

Im in middle school and have already set up a LAMP server, installed ubuntu on two pc's, support ALL of my teachers' IT problems, and am thinking about becoming a board member of the school IT Department....

And some say kids need computer lessons ;)

[Lord Illidan]

Im in middle school and have already set up a LAMP server, installed ubuntu on two pc's, support ALL of my teachers' IT problems, and am thinking about becoming a board member of the school IT Department....

And some say kids need computer lessons ;)

Cool...and I thought I was way advanced setting up Fedora Core 1 when I was 14 years old...oh and I got the A+ at 13 years..hehe

[Get_Ya_Wicked_On]

This can be true for basic computer tasks, but for a programming language it appers (at least in my school) different.

To give an example, my school began offering VISUAL BASIC as a class last year, which I took.

Well I started to take it last year until I got kicked out because I supposedly had enough math credits and the class was over-crowded.

But taking it this year, it's the easiest thing ever. It's my first exposure to "programming" and I'm thinking to myself "It can't be easy."

Apparently though, my class is having a LOT of difficulty. And we are doing very simple things. Let me stress SIMIPLE.

Programs like simple order calculations, checking account balance, using basic if statements, etc.

Me and this other guy in class are well ahead and usually finish our assigned programs within 10 minutes and use the rest of class time to answer other's questions (although this gets quite annoying) or logging out of net-ops and messing around with the comps through dos/registry. (We even figured out how to gain access to the whole County network, viewing teachers gradebook files in various schools in our county) which is a bit disturbing actually.

But it seems everyone else is having trouble making a program that displays how many days until christmas based on user input. (our current project)

I guess it doesn't help our teacher is a total moron. I'm helping her out most of the time. With out current "christmas count-down" project she is telling the class to put the date entered into a integer variable and do (25-intDate) or whatever when you can simply use the DateDiff(interval, startingdate, enddate) function.

This also works for ALL months, as she has said to make a message box appear if the month entered is not "December" HA! As well as one if the numbers are not inbetween (1-31) when you can just use a TEXT1_Change() deal to enable or disable the menu option wether the values being entered are correct or not.

I have the same teacher for Calculus as well, where the story is the same. Someone help me!

[Lord Illidan]

I have the same teacher for Calculus as well, where the story is the same. Someone help me!

What does she do in calculus then?

[Get_Ya_Wicked_On]

I'll give a brief overview (i'm about to watch 13 monkeys!)

But, first off, she doesn't tell us why the rules are the way they are which maybe is a personal thing for me but I believe understanding wether via proofs or just logical-piecing is essential to really appreciate and excel in math. She just spits out some formulas or rules and wonders why the class doesn't understand.

Second, she is constantly "screwing up", for lack of a better word, any problem she is doing on the board. She'll sit there and write out a whole problem on the board, make both algebraic and calculus mistakes and get an answer (the wrong one), and then look in the book and go "hmm."

And then I continue to point out what she did wrong. It's pitiful. Even the other day she came up with a solution which didn't match her book and she goes "Jason, what'd I do wrong?" I asked her why she was asking me and she tells me it seems like you're always correcting me.

Even when she teaches a new lesson, she's dashing back and forth from her book to the board like she doesn't even know what she is teaching. She can't answer most questions my classmates ask concerning a kind of "well what if...." [kind of like exceptions] when we are learning something new.

I could go on and on about what goes on (wow that's confusing) but basically she's a moron. I don't know how she got the job. This particular class is only Calculus AB and we are only up to taking the derivatives and integrals of natural log functions. I mean I'm not merely trying to look smart or anything, I truly feel sorry for everyone who has to attempt to "learn" with this teacher. It's absolutely ridiculous.

[firenewt]

That's the American public school system for you.

Btw, I was a fetus when I set up my first server network. I tell you it was tough doing all that in that cramped space.

[Brunellus]

That's the American public school system for you.

Btw, I was a fetus when I set up my first server network. I tell you it was tough doing all that in that cramped space.
dude, wlan and ssh.

[rich.bradshaw]

To be fair, the whole point of an OS is that it should be intuitive, and easy to pick up. The fact that children can do it is a testament to it's design. People who find this surprising are older people who have never really tried to learn.

[macogw]

Oh heck yes. We had how-to classes for Microsoft Word and PowerPoint every year from 2nd to 8th grade. Screw that. We learned it the first time. We knew more about Office by 5th grade than the teacher did! Stop reteaching crap a 7 year old can figure out. If they're going to have mandatory computer classes like we did, make it something useful. Every kid should know how to install, update, and run a virus scan by 5th grade. Install Windows and drivers on that by 6th or 7th. Some sort of *nix install by 8th. Firewalls, good passwords, etc. That's what we need. Basic computer maintenance is what they should teach. We can figure out apps on our own. Heck, I hate that I had to wait til 10th grade to get a class on VB. It's VB, for crying out loud! It's SIMPLE! We did some "web design" in 8th grade using FrontPage. I really really really hate WUSSYWYGs, so I flipped it to HTML mode. Then I used the "add guest book" option and got the teacher going "ooo how'd you do THAT?" which results in "shouldn't YOU be teaching ME?" yeah, that always worked well.

And yes, I do think it has to do with kids being "no fear". I'm still "no fear". I figure there's nothing I can do with software or code that will really break my computer. I can break an OS install, but I can't break hardware with software. It's possible! Trust me, it's possible. You tell a video driver to put WAYYYY too much power into the wrong pin and the anode and cathode of the CRT monitor go nuts and the thing explodes, but then, I've never written a driver (yet...learning soon), so nothing that I know how to do will break the computer's pieces. If I make things go nuts, I fix it. Pretty much everything I know about computers comes from having to fix stuff I broke. It's the best way to learn. The trouble is, adults think they can't fix it. In an attempt to avoid having to fix, they avoid breaking. In avoiding breaking, they pussyfoot around everything and never explore enough to learn anything. I only know that I can't permanently break my computer because I know enough about computers to know I can fix it *somehow*. It might be a reinstall, and the files might be gone, but it won't mean buying a new computer. I think a lot of adults are under the impression that it is possible to click the wrong button and have the entire computer burst into flames.


By the way, I'm 18, and I can't do that list. I'm best with universal remotes or just a plain TV without VCR, DVD, or video games attached. Multiple remotes are really confusing, and I can only use 1 of the TVs we have with a universal because I've had 3 years to learn how to do what I need to do (ie turn it on....I'm not sure I know all the steps to get it to DVD mode). I have to follow directions to set a digital watch. If I can't work a TV/DVD/VCR, no way I can program one. I think we just called the Comcast guy and got him to set it all up. If I actually used tvs and dvd players instead of my computer, I might now how to do that crap...


My boyfriend's teaching me C. I ask him to teach me stuff on Linux all the time (cuz he's been using it since 1992..yes, he's much older than me). He threatens to change 6 things and not tell me what they are. Then I shut up. I don't want to have all of my libraries moved elsewhere so I can't boot (yes, he's evil). I told him I can break my computer on my own just fine, thank you, and I don't need him to break it for me. It's true. I break it. I fix it. My brother breaks it. I fix it. My sister breaks it. I fix it. My parents break it. I fix it. He doesn't need to break it. I just want to know more command line tricks because the terminal is so much awesomer than clicking.

[3rdalbum]

Wow. I'm the first person to disagree with this topic.

I have a bunch of friends, in their teens, for whom computing means "go onto Myspace and chat on MSN". Here are some things that they've done:

1. I asked one of them to send me an attachment through e-mail. They asked "how do I do that"?

2. I ran a personal web server where my friends could download files from me. The most popular question I got asked was "Right, I downloaded the file... now where did it go?"

3. The second most popular question was "I listened to an MP3 on your site, and I bookmarked it so I could get back to it later, but then when you went offline I couldn't get to it anymore!"

4. One of them asked to be walked through the process of transferring footage from a digital video camera to computer. She assumed that I knew how to use the proprietry Sony software. When I asked how far she had gotten on her own, I found that she hadn't even managed to plug the camera in yet.

5. A couple of these friends were scared to download and install Skype, because they'd never done it before.

6. One of my friends asked to be walked-through how to add credit to his iTunes Music Store account.

None of these people had computer lessons when they were kids. I'm older than them, and yet I had computer lessons. My theory is that their teachers had said "Oh, kids know all about computers, so we don't need to teach them".

As a result, they are only computer-literate enough to surf the web, use instant messenging, and contract viruses and spyware. Yes, I'm sure we were all little geniuses whom the teacher asked for help (I know I was), but not everyone was. The sad thing is, the computer-semi-illiterate people are locked to proprietry software, because that's all they've ever used and they don't have the general computer skills or confidence to be able to use FOSS alternatives.

[Brunellus]

Wow. I'm the first person to disagree with this topic.

I have a bunch of friends, in their teens, for whom computing means "go onto Myspace and chat on MSN". Here are some things that they've done:

1. I asked one of them to send me an attachment through e-mail. They asked "how do I do that"?

2. I ran a personal web server where my friends could download files from me. The most popular question I got asked was "Right, I downloaded the file... now where did it go?"

3. The second most popular question was "I listened to an MP3 on your site, and I bookmarked it so I could get back to it later, but then when you went offline I couldn't get to it anymore!"

4. One of them asked to be walked through the process of transferring footage from a digital video camera to computer. She assumed that I knew how to use the proprietry Sony software. When I asked how far she had gotten on her own, I found that she hadn't even managed to plug the camera in yet.

5. A couple of these friends were scared to download and install Skype, because they'd never done it before.

6. One of my friends asked to be walked-through how to add credit to his iTunes Music Store account.

None of these people had computer lessons when they were kids. I'm older than them, and yet I had computer lessons. My theory is that their teachers had said "Oh, kids know all about computers, so we don't need to teach them".

As a result, they are only computer-literate enough to surf the web, use instant messenging, and contract viruses and spyware. Yes, I'm sure we were all little geniuses whom the teacher asked for help (I know I was), but not everyone was. The sad thing is, the computer-semi-illiterate people are locked to proprietry software, because that's all they've ever used and they don't have the general computer skills or confidence to be able to use FOSS alternatives.
I'm going to say it again: that they get computer lessons is far less important than the kind of computer lessons they get.

Someone with a basic udnerstanding of what computers are and what they do would not have asked any of those questions--they would have been easily deduced without any specific knowledge of the applications involved.

Someone who has had "computer lessons" which focused entirely on MS Word and Powerpoint would still have asked you the same questions.

People tend to mistake "computer education" for "applications software training." Neither need be difficult--but the latter is much, much easier to justify in a budget. Kids who know MSOffice are in demand in the marketplace. Generally computer-literate people are not so.

[argie]

I'm going to say it again: that they get computer lessons is far less important than the kind of computer lessons they get.

Someone with a basic udnerstanding of what computers are and what they do would not have asked any of those questions--they would have been easily deduced without any specific knowledge of the applications involved.

Someone who has had "computer lessons" which focused entirely on MS Word and Powerpoint would still have asked you the same questions.

People tend to mistake "computer education" for "applications software training." Neither need be difficult--but the latter is much, much easier to justify in a budget. Kids who know MSOffice are in demand in the marketplace. Generally computer-literate people are not so.
Actually, I think it's because of their being taught, it gives them the idea that the computer is a holy machine that must not be tampered with. So they're afraid of breaking things.

Also, being taught one way means that they stop looking for other ways to do something. Some people even go completely blank when faced with a new interface. An example would be relevant:

Some of my friends actually come up to me and ask, "Do you have C++ on your computer?". I had no idea what they were trying to say, but after a time I figured they wanted an IDE (yeah saying "compiler" generated blank looks too), so I showed them Dev C++ (Googled this, they're on Windows) and then there was trouble. Apparently they will only work with Turbo C++ 3.1, and one even told me "That's too tough da, only computer experts like you can do it" when I walked him through the File > New... stuff (I should have mentioned the icon, in hindsight, but I don't know how the IDE looks) . This strikes me as weird because these people are otherwise reasonably intelligent, but when it comes to computers they act brain-dead.

And it isn't isolated to C++. Some of my classmates in my compulsory Python course in college act like that too.

[Brunellus]

Actually, I think it's because of their being taught, it gives them the idea that the computer is a holy machine that must not be tampered with. So they're afraid of breaking things.

Also, being taught one way means that they stop looking for other ways to do something. Some people even go completely blank when faced with a new interface. An example would be relevant:

Some of my friends actually come up to me and ask, "Do you have C++ on your computer?". I had no idea what they were trying to say, but after a time I figured they wanted an IDE (yeah saying "compiler" generated blank looks too), so I showed them Dev C++ (Googled this, they're on Windows) and then there was trouble. Apparently they will only work with Turbo C++ 3.1, and one even told me "That's too tough da, only computer experts like you can do it" when I walked him through the File > New... stuff (I should have mentioned the icon, in hindsight, but I don't know how the IDE looks) . This strikes me as weird because these people are otherwise reasonably intelligent, but when it comes to computers they act brain-dead.

And it isn't isolated to C++. Some of my classmates in my compulsory Python course in college act like that too.
I don't think one has to operate on the edge of "breaking things" in order to be competent. The fear of breaking things dissipates when one realises just how things *might* be broken.

The fear you're describing is the ignorance of the basics. A fundamental understanding dispels it.

[mips]

That is truly scary and smacks of incompetance if you ask me. Math/formulas is all about proofs if you ask me, once you have done the proofs and understand the principle(s) you are pretty much good to go.



I'll give a brief overview (i'm about to watch 13 monkeys!)

But, first off, she doesn't tell us why the rules are the way they are which maybe is a personal thing for me but I believe understanding wether via proofs or just logical-piecing is essential to really appreciate and excel in math. She just spits out some formulas or rules and wonders why the class doesn't understand.

Second, she is constantly "screwing up", for lack of a better word, any problem she is doing on the board. She'll sit there and write out a whole problem on the board, make both algebraic and calculus mistakes and get an answer (the wrong one), and then look in the book and go "hmm."

And then I continue to point out what she did wrong. It's pitiful. Even the other day she came up with a solution which didn't match her book and she goes "Jason, what'd I do wrong?" I asked her why she was asking me and she tells me it seems like you're always correcting me.

Even when she teaches a new lesson, she's dashing back and forth from her book to the board like she doesn't even know what she is teaching. She can't answer most questions my classmates ask concerning a kind of "well what if...." [kind of like exceptions] when we are learning something new.

I could go on and on about what goes on (wow that's confusing) but basically she's a moron. I don't know how she got the job. This particular class is only Calculus AB and we are only up to taking the derivatives and integrals of natural log functions. I mean I'm not merely trying to look smart or anything, I truly feel sorry for everyone who has to attempt to "learn" with this teacher. It's absolutely ridiculous.

[flash2lightning]

I grew up on a 95 dinosaur we still have in our garage. I think, i scrwed that thing up at least 3 times, but i would always fix it after whatever it was started bothering my dad.

Man, those compulsory computer lessons in middle school were a total, complete waste of time. I managed to get myself onto the instructor's computer so i had access to the actual computer, not the low-level student accounts. spent the first 2-3 minutes of class working on making *gasp* a picture, then fooled around with the games. Sad thing is, those classes taught you to about the level of my mom, who knows what three shortcuts on the Desktop do: AOL, a shortcut i made to my high school daily bulletin, and the shortcut to her folder in My Documents. Those classes are a complete waste of my time.

[ibanez]

Wow. I'm the first person to disagree with this topic.

I have a bunch of friends, in their teens, for whom computing means "go onto Myspace and chat on MSN". Here are some things that they've done:

1. I asked one of them to send me an attachment through e-mail. They asked "how do I do that"?

2. I ran a personal web server where my friends could download files from me. The most popular question I got asked was "Right, I downloaded the file... now where did it go?"

3. The second most popular question was "I listened to an MP3 on your site, and I bookmarked it so I could get back to it later, but then when you went offline I couldn't get to it anymore!"

4. One of them asked to be walked through the process of transferring footage from a digital video camera to computer. She assumed that I knew how to use the proprietry Sony software. When I asked how far she had gotten on her own, I found that she hadn't even managed to plug the camera in yet.

5. A couple of these friends were scared to download and install Skype, because they'd never done it before.

6. One of my friends asked to be walked-through how to add credit to his iTunes Music Store account.

None of these people had computer lessons when they were kids. I'm older than them, and yet I had computer lessons. My theory is that their teachers had said "Oh, kids know all about computers, so we don't need to teach them".

As a result, they are only computer-literate enough to surf the web, use instant messenging, and contract viruses and spyware. Yes, I'm sure we were all little geniuses whom the teacher asked for help (I know I was), but not everyone was. The sad thing is, the computer-semi-illiterate people are locked to proprietry software, because that's all they've ever used and they don't have the general computer skills or confidence to be able to use FOSS alternatives.

Hmmmm . Sadly that seems to be my experience with most kids/teens also. Yes most of them can install windows, Some of them can even go off and hunt for the missing drivers they need. All of them can use MSN and myspace, But put any of them in a dos window or throw a Linux install disk at them and they start shaking. I think there is a massive void between computer user and hacker"( in the true sense of the word.)
I think alot of todays advanced computer users , grew up in the 80's early 90's when computers were a must have toy/tool like todays Wii's PS3's etc and they were damned expensive so if you had one you used it to its fullest extent, how many of you remember trying to load that cassette based game and having to try several times untill you got the volume just right, I think if you threw that scenario at the majority of todays younger users they'ld just say .. Screw it. its broke.... Of course there are exceptions I love the fact this community has several younger users/hackers. This can only be a good thing, But where I come from (U.K.) I'm sad to say the majority of our youth just dont give a toss as long as their msn etc works.. its a fact . sad but true :( and it also seems with my countries younger generation the only search engine that exists is G00gle :D & they dont even know how to power search that...
Oh well I live in hope things will change :D
If you reading this are one of the few U.K. teens/kids who I have totally misrepresented then please forgive me, we really need people like you, but in my experience you are few and far between here. :) and I respect you. Keep learning & share your knowledge with the lazy ones ;)

[macogw]

Oh, I'll agree that many teenagers have limited use, but the thing is they lack a lot of the fear adults have. At least they can figure out how to use AIM. My parents can't even do that.

You sit me in front of DOS and I won't know what to do either. I'll beg for bash.

[DoctorMO]

type help for dos ;-)

we should have a help script in CLI too, just something that gives the start points of SLI use.

buts thats an aside. We had a C64 which got me into programming and a broken 486 which got me further interested when I was very young. being poor helped because we couldn't fix things by magic money. I had to learn what could really be done with it.

[aysiu]

type help for dos ;-)

we should have a help script in CLI too, just something that gives the start points of SLI use. We do have help. It just doesn't... help. If you can understand this, odds are you won't need it.
username@ubuntu:~$ help
GNU bash, version 3.1.17(1)-release (i486-pc-linux-gnu)
These shell commands are defined internally. Type `help' to see this list.
Type `help name' to find out more about the function `name'.
Use `info bash' to find out more about the shell in general.
Use `man -k' or `info' to find out more about commands not in this list.

A star (*) next to a name means that the command is disabled.

JOB_SPEC [&] (( expression ))
. filename [arguments] :
[ arg... ] [[ expression ]]
alias [-p] [name[=value] ... ] bg [job_spec ...]
bind [-lpvsPVS] [-m keymap] [-f fi break [n]
builtin [shell-builtin [arg ...]] caller [EXPR]
case WORD in [PATTERN [| PATTERN]. cd [-L|-P] [dir]
command [-pVv] command [arg ...] compgen [-abcdefgjksuv] [-o option
complete [-abcdefgjksuv] [-pr] [-o continue [n]
declare [-afFirtx] [-p] [name[=val dirs [-clpv] [+N] [-N]
disown [-h] [-ar] [jobspec ...] echo [-neE] [arg ...]
enable [-pnds] [-a] [-f filename] eval [arg ...]
exec [-cl] [-a name] file [redirec exit [n]
export [-nf] [name[=value] ...] or false
fc [-e ename] [-nlr] [first] [last fg [job_spec]
for NAME [in WORDS ... ;] do COMMA for (( exp1; exp2; exp3 )); do COM
function NAME { COMMANDS ; } or NA getopts optstring name [arg]
hash [-lr] [-p pathname] [-dt] [na help [-s] [pattern ...]
history [-c] [-d offset] [n] or hi if COMMANDS; then COMMANDS; [ elif
jobs [-lnprs] [jobspec ...] or job kill [-s sigspec | -n signum | -si
let arg [arg ...] local name[=value] ...
logout popd [+N | -N] [-n]
printf [-v var] format [arguments] pushd [dir | +N | -N] [-n]
pwd [-LP] read [-ers] [-u fd] [-t timeout] [
readonly [-af] [name[=value] ...] return [n]
select NAME [in WORDS ... ;] do CO set [--abefhkmnptuvxBCHP] [-o opti
shift [n] shopt [-pqsu] [-o long-option] opt
source filename [arguments] suspend [-f]
test [expr] time [-p] PIPELINE
times trap [-lp] [arg signal_spec ...]
true type [-afptP] name [name ...]
typeset [-afFirtx] [-p] name[=valu ulimit [-SHacdfilmnpqstuvx] [limit
umask [-p] [-S] [mode] unalias [-a] name [name ...]
unset [-f] [-v] [name ...] until COMMANDS; do COMMANDS; done
variables - Some variable names an wait [n]
while COMMANDS; do COMMANDS; done { COMMANDS ; }

[mushroom]

Computer courses at my high school are in an absolutely pathetic state. It's essentially Microsoft Office and Visual Basic split into four or five different classes. The web design class is particularly bad, and doesn't teach a lick of code, only how to use FrontPage. Without any actual teaching of tasteful web design, you get a bunch of sites on the school servers that look like they came straight out of Geocities circa 1996. Don't even get me started on Visual Basic. It took a semester to teach what I could've learned in less than two hours. Horrible.

[aysiu]

We didn't have computer classes when I was in high school.

We had AP Computer Science (in which you could learn Pascal), but that was it.

I didn't have to use Microsoft Office until after college (when I started teaching English), and I didn't learn how to use it properly until I quit teaching and got a cubicle job.

The way I look at it--there's no point in teaching children programs, as those programs will be outdated by the time they start working. As an example, when I was in elementary school, we had Apple IIE computers (at least that's what I think they were--they were the ones with the big floppy drives where you had to push the rectangular flap down after inserting the floppy disk). I had no idea what programs we used, but we did little computer drawings in three colors, and that was it.

There was no word processing. There was no internet. And we didn't have Windows either. I used DOS at home and Apple at school.

Now, twenty years later, Windows dominates the desktop, and the popular applications like MS Office, Internet Explorer, and Outlook are all about ten years old or so. Who's to say we'll still be using those in twenty years or thirty years?

[macogw]

I had no idea what programs we used, but we did little computer drawings in three colors, and that was it.

There was no word processing. There was no internet. And we didn't have Windows either. I used DOS at home and Apple at school.

Now, twenty years later, Windows dominates the desktop, and the popular applications like MS Office, Internet Explorer, and Outlook are all about ten years old or so. Who's to say we'll still be using those in twenty years or thirty years?

Reminds me of first grade. Was the drawing "the Turtle Game" aka LOGO?

Lots of comps used 5.25" disks. They were 80s standard.

[macogw]

We had CS for electives in HS. I took VB in 10th and Java in 12th. VB is child's play. It's so cotton candy wussiwyg. Yeah, "web design" was Frontpage in 7th or 8th grade by which point I'd been a html monkey for a few years and thought they were all idiots.

[aysiu]

The turtle game with logo! Yes, that's what it was. Thanks for reminding me.

[mushroom]

The way I look at it--there's no point in teaching children programs, as those programs will be outdated by the time they start working.

Another way to look at it--they're programs, they have documentation.

Programming classes are needed because of their complexity (at least for decent languages, like C++), but Microsoft Word? Please. All of those classes can be supplanted by "F1" and then a little patient reading. The rest can be figured out.

[lintroduccion]

Hmm. Computer lessons:)...
I was in high school until last year - in another country than US.

Computer classes at school? Well, sort of an optional class so you could raise your horrible math grades. It was basically MS Windows, word and... paint (sigh) until a new physics teacher arrived. He changed pretty much everything in the computer class, including changing school desktops OS to linux:D. My first glance at linux by the way. But it was weird to see most of my friends scared of the pc's new "windows skins" and refusing to click at any button because they might break something. Some of them had reinstalled windows several times and knew how to tweak obscure registry keys, and I was like :-k.

IMO, kids are more open to fresh ideas, but once they embrace one and grow with it, can't quite easily get rid of them. Open your mind, the future's bright.

[max.diems]

Im in middle school and have already set up a LAMP server, installed ubuntu on two pc's, support ALL of my teachers' IT problems, and am thinking about becoming a board member of the school IT Department....

And some say kids need computer lessons ;)

Similar story here, though I'm still waiting to have a chance to set up a LAMP server. I installed Linux on two laptops (Ubuntu on one, Red Hat 7.1 on the other). I used to be a network admin for our class (4, 5, half of 6), but the school put the entire campus on single network and has a support contract, so I don't get to do much more than making shortcuts.


Cool...and I thought I was way advanced setting up Fedora Core 1 when I was 14 years old...oh and I got the A+ at 13 years..hehe

Don't want A+, it seems a bit borin (an A+ study book was one of my main computer primers). I think I'll get LPI if I can ever afford it.


Hmmmm . Sadly that seems to be my experience with most kids/teens also. Yes most of them can install windows, Some of them can even go off and hunt for the missing drivers they need. All of them can use MSN and myspace, But put any of them in a dos window or throw a Linux install disk at them and they start shaking. I think there is a massive void between computer user and hacker"( in the true sense of the word.)
I think alot of todays advanced computer users , grew up in the 80's early 90's when computers were a must have toy/tool like todays Wii's PS3's etc and they were damned expensive so if you had one you used it to its fullest extent, how many of you remember trying to load that cassette based game and having to try several times untill you got the volume just right, I think if you threw that scenario at the majority of todays younger users they'ld just say .. Screw it. its broke.... Of course there are exceptions I love the fact this community has several younger users/hackers. This can only be a good thing, But where I come from (U.K.) I'm sad to say the majority of our youth just dont give a toss as long as their msn etc works.. its a fact . sad but true :( and it also seems with my countries younger generation the only search engine that exists is G00gle :D & they dont even know how to power search that...
Oh well I live in hope things will change :D
If you reading this are one of the few U.K. teens/kids who I have totally misrepresented then please forgive me, we really need people like you, but in my experience you are few and far between here. :) and I respect you. Keep learning & share your knowledge with the lazy ones ;)

The lazy ones don't want to know. When, for example, I try to tell how Linux is better, they will say that Windows is better. They can't explain how it is. IF I tell them the number of Windows vulnerabilities compared to the number of Ubuntu vulnerabilities (last I checked Ubuntu had as many vulnerabilities (all patched) as Windows XP Pro unpatched, BTW), they just say they have SpyBot. They will not learn. If they wanted to learn, they would.

[ReiKn]

In the national curriculum of the public education system in Finland (from 1st to 9th grade .. Ranked to be the best in the world btw :) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PISA#Results) ) education related to computers is split between school subjects. For example learning office stuff is integrated in Finnish language lessons etc. However there are common shared goals regarding computer usage and information technology usage in general.
They state that the objective for all students is to learn:
-to understand technology, how it is developed and how it affects different fields of life, different sectors of the society and the environment
-how to use technology in a responsible manner
-to use information technology (devices etc..), software and networking in various purposes
-to be able to commit himself on technological choices and to judge the future effect of decisions made today regarding technological matters

What is taught then (the contents):
-technology in everyday life, in society and in local industrial life
-the evolution of technology and factors that affect it in different cultures, in different fields of life and in different times (periods, eras)
-development, modelling and evaluation of technological ideas and product life span
-usage of computers and networks
-ethical, moral, equality-related and welfare-related questions
-the future society and technology

So in general it's more technology related than just computers here. As these are all from the national curriculum they are part of the curricula of every public school (well almost every school here is a public one) but in addition every school offer some kind of elective courses on computers. They can be everything from programming to web design, from audio production to 3D-modelling. Looking at these objectives I wouldn't say that kids don't need computer lessons. I'd say moreover - as it is said in the thread before me - that more important is what is taught in the lessons. There are far too many irresponsible computer users out there. Just remember that already the fact that you're using linux puts you in a small few percentage minority, a minority even in the group of computer literate people (unless the definition of computer literate is not using MS operating systems :)) so don't judge computer lessons based on just your own experience.

[Mateo]

Kids don't care about breaking stuff that doesn't belong to them, adults do. People don't get scared as they grow older, they learn respect for others.

[TooRight]

I taught my daughters html and also showed them how to do script installs and some mysql stuff this past summer. I had to laugh at the last parent-teacher conference.

They've been learning how to make webpages in school and while the rest of her class was fooling around with frontpage, my one daughter was drawing on a sheet of paper how she wanted her webpage to look, and then opening notepad to type the code. When the teacher saw that he told her to just use frontpage, it's easier. She replied, not for her, and then went on to tell him this way (with notepad) was faster too. Luckily he's a decent teacher and he just laughed and let her do it her way :D

[MkfIbK7a]

i am in highschool and they have the most idiotic computer class where they teach you how to use excell arrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhh they act like we are complete morons!!!!!!!!!!!

i do programng in multiple languages and they want to teach me EXCELL

[mips]

Kids don't care about breaking stuff that doesn't belong to them, adults do. People don't get scared as they grow older, they learn respect for others.

I don´t agree with this. I´ve seen people go into a flat panic and it was not due to respect for others. Somehow we develop fear, itś a weird thing.

[Brunellus]

I don´t agree with this. I´ve seen people go into a flat panic and it was not due to respect for others. Somehow we develop fear, itś a weird thing.
Its' very simple. we learn (well, most of us do) about CONSEQUENCES.

As children, we are blissfully unaware of the consequences of our actions. Age and maturity make us aware of these.

As grownups, nobody will come along and make it all better for us. So we either learn how to fix things ourselves or at least try not to make things worse.

[euler_fan]

i am in highschool and they have the most idiotic computer class where they teach you how to use excell arrrrrgggggggghhhhhhhh they act like we are complete morons!!!!!!!!!!!

i do programng in multiple languages and they want to teach me EXCELL

I'm in college now, but my experience is similar from both levels of education. I have the distinct feeling with hindsight that one of the big reasons for some of the behavior described can be attributed to most teachers in high school (and quite a few in college) being barely better than computer illiterate, and hardly willing to let a student experiment, learn independently, or work creatively for fear if something breaks they will look like fools for not being able to fix it. Thus the prescriptive instructions to do things just like the teacher (which is the slow, hard way).

What is really hilarious is that my college has a "computer competency" requirement. In short, if you can you open a MSWord doc, type, copy, paste, search the Internet, use the electronic card catalog, and send an email you pass the requirement. ](*,)

I'm tempted to ask for a refund on the tuition it paid to support the programs it takes to have and administer that requirement. :-k

[mips]

I'm in college now, but my experience is similar from both levels of education. I have the distinct feeling with hindsight that one of the big reasons for some of the behavior described can be attributed to most teachers in high school (and quite a few in college) being barely better than computer illiterate, and hardly willing to let a student experiment, learn independently, or work creatively for fear if something breaks they will look like fools for not being able to fix it. Thus the prescriptive instructions to do things just like the teacher (which is the slow, hard way).

What is really hilarious is that my college has a "computer competency" requirement. In short, if you can you open a MSWord doc, type, copy, paste, search the Internet, use the electronic card catalog, and send an email you pass the requirement. ](*,)

I'm tempted to ask for a refund on the tuition it paid to support the programs it takes to have and administer that requirement. :-k

Can you not apply for exemption from these subject if you can prove you are more than competent in performing them ?

I did this for two of my subjects, English & Computer literacy and i was granted exemption with full credit and in the process saved some money.

[rabid9797]

Bypass parental control software;

Over to you guys ......

funny thing about that.... :) a couple years ago(3-4) when i was in my early teens my parents put parental software to filter websites and the like and it all reported back to them by email. naturally, being a rebel and(already at the time) wayy ahead of them in computer use and content viewing(i was using websites like b0g.org and 4chan.org since i was 12), this was a huge problem for me.

i thought about the problem, and found the only solution that worked completey. i researched linux distro's and found ubuntu. the rest is history....

[LavaHot]

I find it funny that few have said that kids might need help with Linux. When I was younger (good god I'm only 20), I had friends that knew more stuff than I did, then I slowly surpassed them. I'm still the go-to geek for my circle of friends, and outside of that, I'm a geek god. (Not to be confused with Greek god, I'm nowhere near that good looking.) But taking all of that into consideration, I have little programming experience and even less Linux experience. Sure, there's lots kids know about computing and electronics, but they still don't know a lot more. Then there's lots of folks my age who are next to clueless about how computers work. All they know is what they need to know to run their favorite programs, i.e. iTunes, a web browser, etc. I really wish they taught technical skills in High school, i.e. linux, C, how to use forums for research. Its really too bad that we don't teach these basic things in our public schools.

[max.diems]

Yeah, C programming would b nice to learn. But I can't afford a twenty dollar book now (which is the cheapest I can find).

[euler_fan]

Can you not apply for exemption from these subject if you can prove you are more than competent in performing them ?

I did this for two of my subjects, English & Computer literacy and i was granted exemption with full credit and in the process saved some money.

Well . . . unfortunately where I go to school they are often less interested in actually matching you with the best curriculum and more with pushing you through. I did transfer in two English classes, and I tested past my entire language requirement and placed into integral calculus. However, the program is actually quite rigid without doing something like that to make space in one's schedule.

Also, there is no direct fee for the computer competency requirement. It is just rolled into everything else you pay. And to top it all off, it would probably take more effort to get that one little requirement waved than to just go ahead and complete it. Besides, how would I demonstrate I am more than capable of meeting the requirement? They would insist on my doing something equivalent. I didn't have the opportunity to get heavy into computing until college, so I could hardly say "go to my website" like some of the other people posting here. :rolleyes:

The school I attend is a private Catholic university whose primary product is business majors and which caters to rich folks kids who are too well of to go to the public school down the road, and probably neither smart nor motivated enough to go someplace better. Okay, I will admit that is probably overstating things a bit, but it is more true than not. ](*,)

To make matters worse, I tutor for the math department and see many of my fellow students who are basically scared blind of a command line interface and absolutely unwilling to learn a thing if it is not spoon-fed to them. Especially where computers are concerned. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

[euler_fan]

Yeah, C programming would b nice to learn. But I can't afford a twenty dollar book now (which is the cheapest I can find).

Yeah . . . but at least there are plenty of books and free compilers, etc for that. I have to learn Fortran77 for a research project. I think I will invest in a newer C/C++ book after that and add a more "contemporary" language. Right now all I can really do is some Mathematica, R, and SAS code. None of those are all that useful outside their own environments, unfortunately. If I haven't made it completely clear I'm a math major by now, that sure should have done it :)

[rabid9797]

I find it funny that few have said that kids might need help with Linux. When I was younger (good god I'm only 20), I had friends that knew more stuff than I did, then I slowly surpassed them. I'm still the go-to geek for my circle of friends, and outside of that, I'm a geek god. (Not to be confused with Greek god, I'm nowhere near that good looking.) But taking all of that into consideration, I have little programming experience and even less Linux experience. Sure, there's lots kids know about computing and electronics, but they still don't know a lot more. Then there's lots of folks my age who are next to clueless about how computers work. All they know is what they need to know to run their favorite programs, i.e. iTunes, a web browser, etc. I really wish they taught technical skills in High school, i.e. linux, C, how to use forums for research. Its really too bad that we don't teach these basic things in our public schools.

suprisingly enough at my school we have a couple teachers who don't treat us like were complete idiots(in the context of computing classes)

my freshmen year i took computer programming I, it was all java. the teacher assumed, and told us he assumed, that we knew how to use a computer and weren't complete retards. he taught us the syntax, vocab, and told us what the objective of our project was and set us loose. we basically had to figure everything out on our own or use the internet for help, and i'll tell you it was a real learning experience for me, not being put through a rigid and limiting learning process.

needless to say, i dropped out of the class when it got to AP computer science, it was way to hard and i don't plan on being a programmer, so i didn't see the point :mrgreen:

[max.diems]

/me bumps this thread

[Jhongy]

OH ... MY .... GOD

I had conveniently forgotten the pain that was school computing classes, until this thread brought it all flooding back!

At secondary (high) school in the UK, we had just got a nice lab of Acorn computers. I remember using these reasonably well for NON-computing classes -- for example, we made little posters (using hand-scanners, word processors and graphics packages) in English class.... but when the time came for COMPUTING class, it was literally the dullest thing, ever.

I shared a computer with a kid with halitosis. We had to write a recipe book. Really. Create page. type stuff. Create new page. Type stuff. Finished. It was utterly futile nonsense.

From 16 - 18, it was time for A-levels, and despite being in a selective, "top stream" school, the computing classes were exercises in irritation. "Open Word. Type the following. Select the following. Copy and paste it to the end. Change the following word. Save your work with the following filename." Week after week, more of the same nonsense. I came away with some national "advanced" certification for this -- I can't even remember its name.

All I remember is GETTING INTO TROUBLE for finishing my work within five minutes and messing around in QBasic. I made a little program that presented a fake "C:\>" prompt, and when you pressed any key, it would repeatedly choose a random phrase with an aoblique reference as to how crap the class was, and make an irritating beeping noise.

I also remember kids whining and moaning about how it was so difficult. And the teacher... agreed with them!!! Damnit, partial differentiation is difficult --- Word is easy. In other classes the teacher gave you a bit of pressure and expected you to keep up... why the lenience in computing, I don't know.

Fast forward a couple of years to Uni -- a good uni mind you. Taking Physics, I only had a couple of free modules, so I chose computer. I could hardly believe it when the first class involved how to access the network, how to open an IDE, how to print. And how many people -- computer science majors -- expressed their dismay at how difficult it was!!! At that time there was a stigma attached to CS, that it was easier than the traditional sciences. I could believe it.

We learned Modula-2, culminating in making a few simple programmes using memory pointers. What struck me all the way through was that learning any particular language was easy -- if you had the interest. The classes that focussed on commands, parameters, etc... sucked. They were useless.

The lessons that covered the basics -- input, output, programming style, how to write legible code, how to read others' code, how to debug code -- THEY were useful. (FINALLY!)

The most useful thing, however, was providing huge labs full of SPARCstation terminals -- something different to the Windows 3.11 that everyone else was gawping over. Something new, that rewarded inquisitiveness.

So it's time to stop teaching kids how to use specific packages. It's a moving baseline, and the packages (heck, even IDEs) are built for the lowest common denominator. Teach GOOD PRACTICE instead.

Here's what I believe schools SHOULD teach

-- basic PC subsystems and nomenclature
-- How to write EFFECTIVE e-mails-- How to search effectively
-- How to differentiate between good and bad online ifnormation sources
-- How to reference online sources
-- How to present information clearly
-- How to effectively proofread electronic documents
-- How to effectively teach onesself a new package
-- How to learn a new operating system on your own.

Apart from the latter two points, I'm not sure how many of these actually need a computer in the classroom!

It's been years since my education, but I've learned so much more on computers since then. Give a student a computer, or failing that, an O'Reilly book, and they're all set. Don't bore them to tears!

[max.diems]

Time to bump this thread again...

[Frak]

I think its just natural for kids to be curious enough to learn more about computers.

[hoagie]

Of course kids need no lessons. I'm fourteen years old and I can do almost anything on a windows or linux box, from maintenance to simply writing a document or creating a spreadsheet. I installed ubuntu on my own and have configured it with no problems. I have low level python knowledge and I can read and understand pretty much any python chunk of code (of course I have to thank my book "Python for Dummies" for that. I also turned our old pentium 2 computer into a web server which runs ubuntu server 7.04 and xfce desktop on top, which hosts my website designed in nvu. I can also create a deb package.

I don't want to show off or anything I just want to make a point about how much you can learn simply by curiosity and interest. By the way at school we are taking exams at using word, excel and powerpoint.

I'm sorry if my english is bad but English is not my mother tongue.

[jgrabham]

I could use a GUI (windows 3.11 for workgroups) before I could even read!

[jgrabham]

Of course kids need no lessons. I'm fourteen years old and I can do almost anything on a windows or linux box, from maintenance to simply writing a document or creating a spreadsheet. I installed ubuntu on my own and have configured it with no problems. I have low level python knowledge and I can read and understand pretty much any python chunk of code (of course I have to thank my book "Python for Dummies" for that. I also turned our old pentium 2 computer into a web server which runs ubuntu server 7.04 and xfce desktop on top, which hosts my website designed in nvu. I can also create a deb package.

I don't want to show off or anything I just want to make a point about how much you can learn simply by curiosity and interest. By the way at school we are taking exams at using word, excel and powerpoint.

I'm sorry if my english is bad but English is not my mother tongue.

Wow, I'm 15, and my IT lessons consist of "write a report on "how someone with special needs uses IT" or "IT legislation"" (That page about the GPL and FOSS just accidentally found its way in there:]) Absolutely no IT knowledge (besides writing word docs, or web browsing) needed!

[Warpnow]

The only "computer lesson" I had in school was typing...and I got a 112 wpm on the first day and was not forced to come back, seeing as how the class goal was 35 wpm...

And I'm a teenager now, so this is recent schooling...

[Acglaphotis]

My computer lessons are awful. When the teacher was talking about macros she forced us to write vb code on our notebooks (The paper thing... not on laptops)! Btw, the people who made the article, do they live under rocks? Me and my friends can set up Linux boxes, have some understanding of python and our schools are teaching us about "How to color the tables in excel". It's degrading.

-Acgla

[celsofaf]

Just to make the talk a bit different, but within the same subject: I do know people that started using computers years and years into adulthood, and very quickly learned by their own everything, just like the kids we were talking about. The key here is: will to learn. Yes, it makes wonders. Kids simply love to discover and to learn. Anyone can be a kid!

[macogw]

Its' very simple. we learn (well, most of us do) about CONSEQUENCES.

As children, we are blissfully unaware of the consequences of our actions. Age and maturity make us aware of these.

As grownups, nobody will come along and make it all better for us. So we either learn how to fix things ourselves or at least try not to make things worse.

I would love for my mom to break the computer so I can finally say "I'll help if you're stuck, but figure out how to fix it." Break it then fix it is the best way to learn.

[Frak]

Its also the most fun, I always like to get crap boxes (computers with fully damaged parts) and take them apart, first screw by screw, then board from cable, then circut by circut. Very entertaining :)

[regomodo]

my brother, who is 10 years younger has always been better on the PS2 than me. Thats from when he was 7. I hate playing against him at FIFA

my dad learnt how to use a comp at ~67yrs. i'm surprised he did and that he didn't find it hard

[tennvolsmb]

hey im 14 and i've almost mastered C programming

[Tux.Ice]

Got Comptia A+ when i was twelve, could program at 10 and started running ubuntu at 9, and i get pulled out of classes everyday to do teachers computer fixing :P

lol, kids need to be taught my ***

[Tundro Walker]

I got my butt kicked by a 6-year old bruce lee wanna-be on Street Fighter 2 when it first came out. That was the last time I ever set foot in an arcade. :(

[EnergySamus]

At 1 year old I watched my mom play Jazz Jackrabbit on our Windows 95 PC... At 2 I was playing Jazz Jackrabbit on our PC:lolflag:

Really, kids might need an introduction to computers (you don't want them turning it on and off 20 times a day), but not lessons.

EnergySamus

[hessiess]

im 17 and have torght myself how to use linux including the terminal, 3D modaling, standerds complient HTML/CSS, C++ and set up a server to host my website. all completly self torght. I also torght myself how to use basic enganering equipment like lathes.

I have learnt a grand total of vertualy nothing from years of IT lessons. If i made websites how my current web teacher dose them(frount page and dreamwever) all you end up with is pages of bloted spageti code.

[blithen]

My son's third grade teacher said my son was awesome on computers. He used to enter her grades for her in the database and she said she never had to call IT to fix any problems for her because my son fixed them all.

Haha sounds like me a few years back. Though granted I am 17. So I was probably 14-15 at the time. But the point is I always used to fix computers for teachers.

[Cuzit]

I'm 16, going on 17 a few months from now. I've always heard of Linux, of course. My life revolves around computers, video games, and technology in general, so of course I'd heard of Linux, but that was about the extent of my knowledge.

I ordered some free Ubuntu discs from UShipIt about two months ago and it took a month to arrive. I eagerly installed it on my desktop, everything went smoothly. I played with it some and absolutely loved it. I guess when you use nothing but Windows, you train yourself to ignore its flaws. But Ubuntu is a world of difference. It's amazingly smoother, has lots of features, is very similar to Windows in terms of layout and functionality (which eases the Windows to Linux transition), and is simply better in almost all aspects. It didn't take much to convert me. I then tried to install it on my laptop - a Dell Inspiron 1501... that went well. It took a long time to set up and run, but I finally managed it. I figured some out myself, used Google for help, and whatnot.

I've been using computers as long as I can remember. I've done a lot of basic programming. I don't know if I'm professional enough in any language to call myself "pro" at it (besides HTML... but that's not saying much :P ). But everything I've ever done I've figured out myself. My parents were - for lack of a better term - complete noobs about anything technical.

So, in an effort to contribute, I don't believe kids that grow up around computers need for in-depth classes. The classes at my school are literally how to use Microsoft Office. That's it. They also install a program called Clean-Slate that wipes the computers hard drive back to a certain point when its turned off. That means no matter what you install or customize, its removed at the end of the day. That angers me, because all I really want to do is install firefox. Internet Explorer finally ticked me off one day when a Word HTML file from a textbook had code that wouldn't display the page in any browser other than Internet Explorer, and when I clicked on IE, it froze the computer. IE can't even properly display files Office tries to force it to. Anyway, sorry for that rant. All I really want to say is that I agree with everyone that said computer education should be more theory than application - or "how to use Word", as it is in most cases. :P

[-gabe-noob-]

Oh heck yes. We had how-to classes for Microsoft Word and PowerPoint every year from 2nd to 8th grade. Screw that. We learned it the first time. We knew more about Office by 5th grade than the teacher did! Stop reteaching crap a 7 year old can figure out. If they're going to have mandatory computer classes like we did, make it something useful. Every kid should know how to install, update, and run a virus scan by 5th grade. Install Windows and drivers on that by 6th or 7th. Some sort of *nix install by 8th. Firewalls, good passwords, etc.


The *nix install should come before the windows one, as instaling windows is a pain in the **** and I figured out how to install ubunutu in like 2-3 mins (clicking on the install thing... duhhh though I did wipe vista from my computer, but I don't mind now)

[Frak]

They also install a program called Clean-Slate that wipes the computers hard drive back to a certain point when its turned off. That means no matter what you install or customize, its removed at the end of the day. That angers me, because all I really want to do is install firefox. Internet Explorer finally ticked me off one day when a Word HTML file from a textbook had code that wouldn't display the page in any browser other than Internet Explorer, and when I clicked on IE, it froze the computer. IE can't even properly display files Office tries to force it to. Anyway, sorry for that rant. All I really want to say is that I agree with everyone that said computer education should be more theory than application - or "how to use Word", as it is in most cases.

Yes, I remember Clean-Slate. We administered it on our computers until 2000 was released. There was a "bug" that went around that would wipe NTFS drives when it tried to "restore" the filesystem. It has since been fixed, but no school around us will even touch the software anymore in the fear that the techs would have to take months to repair said PC's. Also, computers have hard drives. These hard drives are meant to be used. All we did was turn off user-access to installing programs. Problem fixed! No need for such expensive software.

Also, if it isn't terribly against your computer-usage rules, consider using Firefox|PortableApps (http://portableapps.com/news/2008-03-25_-_firefox_portable_2.0.0.13). You may also consider using the portable apps suite to save time with all those files.

[OZFive]

Well I cannot say for most kids but my nephew that is 15 knows junk about computers. His thoughts are that computers are only good for playing World of Warcraft. I am trying to get him to sit down with me and learn but he is too involed in the game to understand what makes his ame go.

[gecko98]

Kids certainly don't need classes to teach them how to use MS-Word, Powerpoint or computers in general. However, programming (in a simple procedural language like BASIC) and computer engineering classes (basically, how a computer works, what are the components inside, teach them how to make simple devices and have them actually build something) can be taught as early as 7th grade.
This is true, I'm 14 and my friends and me already know how to make programs. I've also made computers and help fix my teacher's computers.

[schauerlich]

I did my first IT job at the age of 3. Mumsy needed help getting into AOL.

[Spike-X]

im 17 and have torght myself how to use linux including the terminal, 3D modaling, standerds complient HTML/CSS, C++ and set up a server to host my website. all completly self torght. I also torght myself how to use basic enganering equipment like lathes.

I have learnt a grand total of vertualy nothing from years of IT lessons. If i made websites how my current web teacher dose them(frount page and dreamwever) all you end up with is pages of bloted spageti code.
It's a pity you haven't taught yourself basic English yet.

[TBOL3]

What gets even worse is collage. Where I live, you HAVE to take a Computer 1020 class. Sure you can take a test to get out of it, but the test requires that you put in the exact answer.

For example: Question: What are the three ways of saving a file in MS WORD?
A: File -> Save or File -> Save As or the toolbar (I can't remember what it's called).

If you put them in a different order (File -> Save As or File -> Save) it's wrong.

If you don't have it spaced the way they want (File->Save) it's wrong.

And yes, they don't include all of the correct answers.

[Cuzit]

Yes, I remember Clean-Slate. We administered it on our computers until 2000 was released. There was a "bug" that went around that would wipe NTFS drives when it tried to "restore" the filesystem. It has since been fixed, but no school around us will even touch the software anymore in the fear that the techs would have to take months to repair said PC's. Also, computers have hard drives. These hard drives are meant to be used. All we did was turn off user-access to installing programs. Problem fixed! No need for such expensive software.

Also, if it isn't terribly against your computer-usage rules, consider using Firefox|PortableApps (http://portableapps.com/news/2008-03-25_-_firefox_portable_2.0.0.13). You may also consider using the portable apps suite to save time with all those files.

They have Clean-Slate configured to wipe the hard drive to a certain point when you log off. Some stuff, like Mircrosoft Office and a few other things, are kept, but everything else is lost.

But IE just recently ticked me off to the point where I don't ever want to mess with that garbage excuse for a browser again. So I haven't really had time to look into alternatives, but that FF Portable looks nice.... I'll try to run that.

[Riffer]

Very interesting thread with lots of different points.

One of the best teachers is to play, to explore. Thats why some kids pick up things so quick, they are allowed to click away to their heart's content without fear. Which is also why so many older folks find it so hard, they fear they might break something. Its a funny thing in our culture we have taken away the persons ability to fail, to screw up, and replaced it with the idea that they have to be perfect the first time. A lucky few get over this fear and learn the best way.

Mimicry is also a great teacher. Babies that have toddlers for siblings always learn to walk quicker. This is way so many facebook or MSN so well, because their buddies do. And it also explains why they don't know other parts of computing (emailing attachments etc) so well. Its just not cool and their friends don't do it.

Probably the best teacher is passion. As shown in this thread, people who are very interested, learn fast, well and a lot. They leave their friends behind in their learning.

So should kids be taught computer skills? Yes I think they do. The vast majority only know facebook or MSN, as stated in another post, they don't know how to add attachments to emails. As TBOL3 said they now have basic computer classes in college. This because the majority of students can't use a word processor to the level required by college or university.

So in my mind its not should computers be taught, rather what computer skills should be taught.

[hessiess]

It's a pity you haven't taught yourself basic English yet.

IM DISLEXIC, OK! :mad:

[Frak]

They have Clean-Slate configured to wipe the hard drive to a certain point when you log off. Some stuff, like Microsoft Office and a few other things, are kept, but everything else is lost.

That is the default configuration. Though, before they had it restore an image of the hard disk back in the times of Windows 98. They have changed it to restore files, but since XP came out, there hasn't been a need for this program. Also, as I said, let the students keep their configurations between computers. Hard drives were MADE to be used.

[tbrminsanity]

This is where I date myself:

2 years old (programmed the VCR clock, got sick of the flashing 12:00)
6 years old (created my first program on a commadore pet, it cycled through and printed out garbage)
11 years old (could create a wide range of programs on my Amiga 500 including a midi that played Bethoven's 5th)
14 years old (first experience with Windows, hacked it and corrupted the school computer (opps ;) ))
17 years old (started to work with object oriented languages and started to create more "interesting" programs)
Early 20s (learned about FLOSS and started to experiment, switched from Amiga to Linux/Windows (I was a gamer))
Late 20s (Droped Windows for Linux, started my own FLOSS projects).

[torry_loon]

Children will explore the computer and discover things for themselves unlike many of the adults who are teaching them. They will often discover something that no adult would ever think of.

The great thing about Linux distros is that it is hard to break the system without root access so you can leave a child to explore without worrying about them breaking the OS.

[macogw]

The *nix install should come before the windows one, as instaling windows is a pain in the **** and I figured out how to install ubunutu in like 2-3 mins (clicking on the install thing... duhhh though I did wipe vista from my computer, but I don't mind now)

Maybe a Gentoo install in high school? ;)

[cardinals_fan]

Tomorrow is one of the three days a year in which my school requires that one teacher donate their class hour to the school IT guy who 'teaches' us. Instead of Biology, I will learn to (get ready!) make charts in Excel! YAY! I always wanted to know how to do this...

I'll post back tomorrow about the experience.

[jacob01]

yea i really want to get into programming and i am 16 i hope its not to late to start :lolflag:

lol some of you are younger and have started, that damn cool


the sad part is that while some people are getting really good with computers most people are just becoming dumber because of the ease of use.





lol btw the computer classes i have seen are a complete joke i dont know how some one is supposed to learn.

[3rdalbum]

Kids definitely do need computer lessons.

I used to run a web server on my home computer with Hi-5 multimedia files on it, for my friends to download from me. These people were between 12 and 20. This was only 3 years ago.

Most common question: "I just downloaded this file and now I don't know where it's downloaded to!"

Another common problem: People used to e-mail me and complain that they couldn't get to my site. I always had to reply and say "Well, that's because my computer was turned off at the time".

I once asked one person to send me a file through e-mail as an attachment. Her response was "How do I do that?". Sending e-mail attachments seems to be beyond the skills of today's youth.

And barely a month goes by without one of my friends getting a virus that tries to send itself to me through IM. And then these people get annoyed, and don't take any notice of you, when you ask them to stay offline until the virus is gone. That's more of a "those kids don't have any common sense" problem than a computer knowledge problem.

So, we *must* teach kids how to use computers. Computers, not just certain software programs.

[yssida]

We were still being taught LOGO. .. . . . .. .that was in 2000.

[PurposeOfReason]

Maybe a Gentoo install in high school? ;)
That's not all that hard if you want to do some reading AKA the handbook. This is also me saying "been there, done that". I'd still use it if I had the time to compile everything but I get spoiled with binaries. :)

[cardinals_fan]

My computer education hour is over. Imagine an hour and a half of creating chart after mind-numbing chart in Microsoft Excel on OS X. I thought that they didn't allow cruel and unusual punishment...

[macogw]

I once asked one person to send me a file through e-mail as an attachment. Her response was "How do I do that?". Sending e-mail attachments seems to be beyond the skills of today's youth.

Odd, grownups who suck at computers are usually in the habit of sending a blank email with a Word document attached, and the Word document contains the actual text of the email.

[Frak]

That's not all that hard if you want to do some reading AKA the handbook. This is also me saying "been there, done that". I'd still use it if I had the time to compile everything but I get spoiled with binaries. :)
With OS's like Arch supporting modern binaries (packages compiled for modern processors), I no longer find the need to compile programs... most of the time. With the AUR I do compile just for the multitude of apps, and I do use abs to compile certain apps.