the great gatsby

[dbbolton]

my friend's old dell nearly came to a screeching halt after a thorough infestation. i gave him a xubuntu cd. he took his computer to a repairman to wipe the hard drive and install xubuntu. (even after i explained that the partitioner could do that.)

i get a phone call the next day. "uhh, daniel, can you hook up the internet for me?" i checked everything, changed nothing, opened firefox, and the internet was working fine. he said: "well, aim didnt work."

so i opened Gaim and looked at the accounts, and cooly explained that he had misspelt his screen name. then i became his personal linux fairy. finally, my answer to his questions just became "forums."

today, he asked me to explain how to install a printer, and i referred hime to gnome-cups-manager. "it's just printing blank pages." i asked if he had selected the correct drivers. "oh, well they didn't have any for my printer." how many forehead slaps are we up to at this point?

then, this happened :

(19:25:36) graham: i might put windows back on this computer
(19:25:46) daniel: k.
(19:26:18) graham: linux is too hard to understand and plus none of the hardware that i have works on it

i decided to share with a FELLOW linux using friend.


(20:01:15) daniel: here's a quote from graham
(20:01:24) daniel: "linux is too hard to understand"
(20:01:29) barrett: What?
(20:01:42) barrett: That's like saying.
(20:01:50) barrett: "I can't figure out how to type."

if you understand the title, kudos.

[PriceChild]

/me smiles

EDIT: Sometimes its just not meant to be, leave him with what he knows.

[dbbolton]

Sometimes its just not meant to be


absolutely correct. i don't have a bit of a problem with his switcherooery, but i hope he doesn't start complaining to me about viruses, adware, spyware, trojans, and the like by next week

;)

[IYY]

I think you are at fault here. As an Ubuntu user, you should help other users get started, and not just by linking them to a vaguely related tutorial or man page, but actually explaining what to do and taking them through the steps. Otherwise, 99% of people would just switch back to Windows. The Linux community used to be fine with that, but Ubuntu is all about community, and helping others even if it's with basic things.

[Brunellus]

A sly variant of the "not ready for the desktop" thread.

You picked someone who was perhaps a marginal candidate for migration and then migrated him with minimal support. This was bound to fail.

[Get_Ya_Wicked_On]

Actually, my belief is that you have a deeper understanding when you learn things yourself.

It's not going to help someone by "holding-their-hand" through all of their problems.

I have only been an actual Linux user for 2 months, if that. And I have had to solve all kinds of problems, some of which I've spent days on. And it's so rewarding to all of the sudden get a result you want when a solution seemed out of the question. And I did all this by READING. Countless articles, forum posts, what have you. I'm just saying if you're going to go into Linux you had better be prepared to learn a few things.

Communnity is good, yes. But it erks me seeing all of these new threads with topics that have been discussed countless times, here & elsewhere. It just seems that no one wants to do any research of their own. And no one should be supporting that attitude.

And as much as It'd be nice to have a lot of Window users become Linux users, it is not always necessary as many have pointed out. If you have to convince someone to give Linux a try (just because it's Linux) and they are not too computer-savvy, it's better to just let them continue on their own respective path. There is absolutely no point in throwing them into a world of confusion in which they will not be willing to advance in.

[nalmeth]

We don't have all the details with what happened with the printer, yes maybe he could have helped more, but how much time do you expect someone to give? You can't let someone get dependant on you for EVERY SINGLE new thing that comes along.

What if he suddenly gets 3-4 more people on Ubuntu, should he talk with each and everyone of them through every last step of every thing they might need to do?

Is he a poor member of the community for not pushing them around in a stroller? I think not..

[Brunellus]

Actually, my belief is that you have a deeper understanding when you learn things yourself.

It's not going to help someone by "holding-their-hand" through all of their problems.

I have only been an actual Linux user for 2 months, if that. And I have had to solve all kinds of problems, some of which I've spent days on. And it's so rewarding to all of the sudden get a result you want when a solution seemed out of the question. And I did all this by READING. Countless articles, forum posts, what have you. I'm just saying if you're going to go into Linux you had better be prepared to learn a few things.

Communnity is good, yes. But it erks me seeing all of these new threads with topics that have been discussed countless times, here & elsewhere. It just seems that no one wants to do any research of their own. And no one should be supporting that attitude.

And as much as It'd be nice to have a lot of Window users become Linux users, it is not always necessary as many have pointed out. If you have to convince someone to give Linux a try (just because it's Linux) and they are not too computer-savvy, it's better to just let them continue on their own respective path. There is absolutely no point in throwing them into a world of confusion in which they will not be willing to advance in.
There's a fine line between learning to swim and barely avoiding drowning. These forums are meant to teach users how to swim. If you want to hurl someone in the deep end and have them be flamed for their poor form, hand your prospective switcher a Debian or Slackware install CD and point them to the relevant newsgroups.

Generally, there are two sorts of users that can be migrated to Linux:

The first sort of user is an ideal type--he's interested in his computer, literate, and attentive. He is also patient and curious in equal measures. Most successful self-migrating users are this type of auto-didact.

the second sort of user is one whose problems are all dealt with by the first sort of user. He is not permitted to break the system, and simply goes about using the computer without having to know or understand its functions.

I have found that it is relatively easy to keep the second type of user happy if you ensure ahead of time that nothing will break. This means checking hardware, replacing unsuitable hardware where necessary, and generally being an overprotective "mother hen." Users of this sort will often behave like small children, so treat them that way: be loving but firm.

OP's friend was of the second type. I wouldn't have migrated him unless I was sure that I could cover nearly every eventuality.

[dbbolton]

I think you are at fault here. As an Ubuntu user, you should help other users get started, and not just by linking them to a vaguely related tutorial or man page, but actually explaining what to do and taking them through the steps. Otherwise, 99% of people would just switch back to Windows. The Linux community used to be fine with that, but Ubuntu is all about community, and helping others even if it's with basic things.
i actually sat down with him for about 2 hours going over stuff i had to learn on my own over the course of several weeks. like how to use the terminal, how to use synaptic, so on and so forth.

the reason my response became "forum" was that he was asking me questions that i had to look up on the forum.

[dbbolton]

A sly variant of the "not ready for the desktop" thread.

You picked someone who was perhaps a marginal candidate for migration and then migrated him with minimal support. This was bound to fail.
well, no one gave me a personalised ubuntu tutorial and i'm still here, four months later.

as matter of fact, he asked me for an ubuntu cd. i didn't force it on him.

[Brunellus]

i actually sat down with him for about 2 hours going over stuff i had to learn on my own over the course of several weeks. like how to use the terminal, how to use synaptic, so on and so forth.

the reason my response became "forum" was that he was asking me questions that i had to look up on the forum.
2 hours of instruction plus airy references to the forum aren't going to do it--especially if he had hardware with questionable compatibility.

Take this as a learning experience: don't try converting people until you have a greater grasp of what might happen.

Don't flatter yourself by saying that "well, I'm still here, and nobody bothered to teach ME anything." You are a different case--you were determined to make the switch and carried on.

Your friend was in the same position I was in about two years ago with Linux, but again, I was determined to make Linux work, while your friend had easy access to Windows and a signal lack of determination to get things going. The fact that he was too scared to operate the partitioner should have been a glaring warning sign that he was not going to be a self-taught linux user.

[aysiu]

I agree with Brunellus.

Unless they say, "I am curious about Linux and would love to take the time to learn something new," you should assume they just want to use Linux and not install and configure Linux.

I would install it for anyone who expressed anything less than total enthusiasm for learning.

[dbbolton]

i really think that i did much more than i had to. he initially called me and asked if i would put linux on his computer. i didn't force it on him at all. so, i don't see it as "trying to convert."

should i have simply said "sorry, you're on your own, pal" ?

i think what happened is that he was fed up with windows, and heard magical things about linux, and expected a cure-all, easy, free solution.

[dbbolton]

I agree with Brunellus.

Unless they say, "I am curious about Linux and would love to take the time to learn something new," you should assume they just want to use Linux and not install and configure Linux.

I would install it for anyone who expressed anything less than total enthusiasm for learning.
that's why i gave him a xubuntu cd and not damn small linux.

you're right though. he had someone else install it, and i believe he expected me to configure it.

i kind of feel like when i gave him the cd, i signed some agreement to be his mentor. but you know what they say, teach a man to fish

about the "airy references," i told him that i added a couple very useful bookmarks in firefox that he would be using often. one was the psychocats guide. the other was ubuntuforums. i also told him that virtually every question that i have ever had about ubuntu was answered on the forums.

[aysiu]

Naturally, you're not obligated to do anything. Everything you did was a volunteer effort, and that's to be lauded.

I'm just saying that anything short of 99% dedication to getting it installed and learning how to install Linux will end in failure unless you do all the work for him.

[Hendrixski]

I like the assessment of 2 kinds of users. Most of user #2 don't want to become computer enthusiasts, they want their OS to be cool like Linux without the learning curve. They just want to use it as a tool and be productive. This type of user would be best served by a mac.

[dbbolton]

Naturally, you're not obligated to do anything. Everything you did was a volunteer effort, and that's to be lauded.

I'm just saying that anything short of 99% dedication to getting it installed and learning how to install Linux will end in failure unless you do all the work for him.
lucky for me that i was dedicated when embarking upon my linux quest :)

[dbbolton]

on a side note, since i started this thread, i did a little googling and found that his printer (xerox workcentre xk50cx) can be setup as a lexmark z52, with (i believe) the gutenprint driver.

he "couldn't find anything" about it.

[dbbolton]

I like the assessment of 2 kinds of users. Most of user #2 don't want to become computer enthusiasts, they want their OS to be cool like Linux without the learning curve. They just want to use it as a tool and be productive. This type of user would be best served by a mac.
actually, he says he's going to get a mac before college. i think he wanted linux as a last resort to save that old desktop.

[Hendrixski]

yeah, a lot of people install LINUX onto old machines that are too old to run windows after it's bloated with updates. but it does take a learning curve plus even more patience because you're working with an old machine that is slow and sub-par to your friends' shiny new machines.

[dbbolton]

yeah, a lot of people install LINUX onto old machines that are too old to run windows after it's bloated with updates. but it does take a learning curve plus even more patience because you're working with an old machine that is slow and sub-par to your friends' shiny new machines.
he couldn't believe how much faster xubuntu was than xp.

you'd think that would have struck a chord in him, but i guess not...

[Brunellus]

he couldn't believe how much faster xubuntu was than xp.

you'd think that would have struck a chord in him, but i guess not...
Most users are not like you or even the rest of us on the ubuntuforums.

That something is faster is completely irrelevant to them. They want windows, or the complete functional analogue of windows. They don't want faster, better, or more secure. They want Windows--or failing that, a functional computer that will do "windows stuff"--whatever that is.

Don't count on simply demonstrated "superiority" to inspire new users to become autodidacts.

[dbbolton]

good point. come to think of it, he seemed more concerned/bedazzled with making the window manager resemble osx than getting all the drivers, codecs, etc. installed. (i installed automatix and easyubuntu for him and expalined how to use them.) that actually explains quite a bit.

[Get_Ya_Wicked_On]

It's basically a general principal that you can apply to many scenarios.

If a human-being is used to doing a task in a certain manner, or in a certain environment, that person is not going to have an easy time switching to another method/environment unless they themselves are the ones who initiate the switch based on their actual interest. It's just a mind thing. I mean someone who has used windows their whole life on their computer is a pretty major conditioning. It's very hard to be introduced to a totally new way of computing.

[Hendrixski]

Don't count on simply demonstrated "superiority" to inspire new users to become autodidacts.

Yeah, it's a tough sell. Here's an operating system that is stable, free (as in free speech), has no viruses, is fast, flashy (especially e17), configurable, and most distro's are free (as in free beer).

you're right, most people want windows because it's what they're used to, it's "good enough quality" and they're afraid of change. Oh, and the marketing is much better.

[dbbolton]

true.

[TheThirdGhost]

:KS Why human-beings like to put themselves in boxes?
and the only thing we can do is just waiting.:-k

[lyceum]

I have switch more people than I can count to Ubuntu. None had any problems. Here is my secret, I chaged them $$'s and did all the hard work for them. I let them know that if they wanted to get new hardware to be sure that is works with Linux and if you haev any problems, let me know. I give them a book and some videos to help them get started. Ihave had only on complaint, and once I let her know that Linux does not come with the internet, she called AT&T and was fine!

[BoyOfDestiny]

I have switch more people than I can count to Ubuntu. None had any problems. Here is my secret, I chaged them $$'s and did all the hard work for them. I let them know that if they wanted to get new hardware to be sure that is works with Linux and if you haev any problems, let me know. I give them a book and some videos to help them get started. Ihave had only on complaint, and once I let her know that Linux does not come with the internet, she called AT&T and was fine!

I've got friends dual booting, and family members using Ubuntu on laptops...

Secret to keeping things going great... Explain synaptic, show add/remove for the more shy types, show how easy it is to click the "there are updates" notification.

Make sure you've installed plenty of codecs too (gstreamer.10* is a must.)

Show firefox, show Office. Show how the menu layout is simple...

Then let them just use it. Any hiccups, and I ssh into their boxes... Gotta love ssh.

[lyceum]

I've got friends dual booting, and family members using Ubuntu on laptops...

Secret to keeping things going great... Explain synaptic, show add/remove for the more shy types, show how easy it is to click the "there are updates" notification.

Make sure you've installed plenty of codecs too (gstreamer.10* is a must.)

Show firefox, show Office. Show how the menu layout is simple...

Then let them just use it. Any hiccups, and I ssh into their boxes... Gotta love ssh.

You are right, dual booting is a great way to go. I build PCs for people and so they have to pay for Windows. I have only had one client so far willing to do that. They started useing Ubuntu to surf the web, but it grew on them.

[dbbolton]

tangent thread:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=317078

[dbbolton]

so, i got him a new printer for christmas. i hope i'm not somehow "at fault" for that.

[befrying]

im using ubuntu 7.10 on my hp dv2000 i have a network connection through an ethernet but the wireless network driver isnt responding. do you have any suggestions to get it to search for wifi? i have a netgear wireless router on my desktop that is working fine but seems useless untill i can get wifi on laptop.