why are games not developed for linux?

[falkenberg_cph]

Hi
Why are games generally not developed for linux. Is it too pricey compared to the number of potential buyers? or whats going on?

- Anyone know some facts about this. Because im sure a lot of you can suppose something about this subject.

/Carsten

[spockrock]

Hi
Why are games generally not developed for linux. Is it too pricey compared to the number of potential buyers? or whats going on?

- Anyone know some facts about this. Because im sure a lot of you can suppose something about this subject.

/Carsten

I imagine it has to do with the old stigma that developing for linux is developing opensource software, also market share...is the 5-10%(I dunno how much of the desktop market linux has, I pulled those numbers out of thin air) of desktop linux boxes going to buy this game, is it profitable, etc etc etc.

Also direct3d being windows doesn't help.

[JLB]

Hi
Why are games generally not developed for linux. Is it too pricey compared to the number of potential buyers? or whats going on?

- Anyone know some facts about this. Because im sure a lot of you can suppose something about this subject.

/Carsten

1) Money
2) Money
3) Small market --> Not a lot of money in it.

[falkenberg_cph]

argh that sucks. i was hoping for other explanations to spice up this thread. But i guess the answer is obvious.

I might ask another way. How big a deal is it to develop a game for linux that has allready been made for windows. After all, some elements are the same, like openGL and uhm uuuuh thats where my knowledge ends :)

/Carsten

[frodon]

It's because most of the games are directX based and directX is windows only. They develop with directX libraries because they are used to do it for a long time and they don't have to write code from scratch.

However there's some nice efforts, for example from AMD which developped a tool which convert directX based code to openGL based code so it will be easy to convert a game.

I think this will change in the future because openGL is really performant and cross-plateform.

[zachtib]

argh that sucks. i was hoping for other explanations to spice up this thread. But i guess the answer is obvious.

I might ask another way. How big a deal is it to develop a game for linux that has allready been made for windows. After all, some elements are the same, like openGL and uhm uuuuh thats where my knowledge ends :)

/Carsten

well, OpenGL is available on all platforms, which makes OpenGL apps easier to port. On top of that, the data files for the game should be universal. Then it boils down to the developers caring enough to release a Linux version, which a few companies do (Id is the best example of this)

[falkenberg_cph]

Id - they were the once who made doom right?

[Brunellus]

Linux users are a notoriously tight-fisted bunch. As far as commercial software knows or cares, we don't buy software. We build it or steal it.

id is one of the rare companies that is Linux-friendly because their whole development system seems to depend on Linux and open-standards like OpenGL.

[bonzodog]

There is actually an amazing amount of games available for Linux - it's just that most of them are not shop sold so, they aren't 'mainstream' and are developed by a few people in their bedrooms, or by small games houses.

However, there are a few 'big' titles that have Linux ports - Doom 3 and most Id software games, Neverwinter Nights, (not 2 at the moment, though it could happen!).

Popular games in Linux that are native include Battle For Wesnoth, a turn-based strategy game, Tux Kart, and planet penguin racer. I am personally addicted to Frozen Bubble, and gnome -mah-jongg. I like puzzle games, and sim-like strategy games.

[frodon]

To be honnest my favorite game has a linux version and is open source so for me all is perfect :)
I talked about "enemy territory"

[apoclypse]

The tools available for windows are plenty. The same cannot be said about linux. You can say whatever you want about directx but its great product that makes it easy for devs to work with and with thing like XNA among other tools available, it has better support form companies already spending millions of dollars on game developement. Another is that most game companies already use a pipeline that they are used to and unfortunately that pipeline includes 3dsmax which is a windows only product but is a huge part of the game dev industry. There are tools such as XSI that are slowly gaining followers and Maya, but nowhere near the level of 3dsmax. There is also hardware support, right now Nvidia owns the crown when it comes to linux hardware support for their video cards. ATI has picked up the pace on development but the area where it matter they seem to neglect the obvious, if opengl support is weak on the windows platform then the linux support will suffer. MS was smart when they created directx, they tied the system so much into windows that even porting the libraries to another platform by reverse engineering requires support for some functionality of windows itself.

I would definately like to see games take off more in the oss world, but to have any real level of qaulity vast amount of cash is needed as well as support. If ever in my life I were to be wealthy I would probably start an oss video game comapany wher the only thing the user has to pay fo ris the assets (story, cinematics, models , etc.) but the engine would be totally free. I think Id uses something similar to this, the opensource their engines after they have made their money commercially. Its not perfect but with the amount of money spent on these things its really the only way I see.

[Ben Sprinkle]

Unreal Tournament is also available for Linux, and it runs a bit faster than linux.

[darrenm]

Can't see much life left in PC gaming anyway. Consoles will be the only place to play games soon.

[falkenberg_cph]

Linux users are a notoriously tight-fisted bunch. As far as commercial software knows or cares, we don't buy software. We build it or steal it.

Actually my reason for going linux was that i was tired of stealing. I came here for the music software. The whole "Bill is an *******, so i steal his program", i dont give much for that. Better abandon it completely.
And linux music software is relatively ok, though im definitly hoping it will be developed further in a near future. Who knows. (ps: i love what they are doing with the ubuntu studio project).

Anyway, back to the topic. I dont think you're right. Consols will not take over gaming completely. I think many people buying PCs (with windows) buy them to play games. Its a big part off microsofts costumers that would disappear if they started just developing windows for desktopping.

[Brunellus]

PC gamers are a big slice of the market, but are NOT the big money-makers for microsoft or the hardware manufacturers. How many people, after all, can afford nuclear-powered machines to up their framerates on the latest "revolutionary" FPS, MMORPG, or RTS?

Not many.

The money is in all those drab beige machines on all those business desktops. That was true back in the day of the IBM 5120, and it's true now.

[falkenberg_cph]

That sounds right. :-k :neutral: EOT

[xmastree]

However there's some nice efforts, for example from AMD which developped a tool which convert directX based code to openGL based code so it will be easy to convert a game.
But (and I may be wrong here...) openGL only concerns graphics. AFAIK DirectX also handles sound, and input devices like joysticks etc.

[Brunellus]

But (and I may be wrong here...) openGL only concerns graphics. AFAIK DirectX also handles sound, and input devices like joysticks etc.
yup. As I recall, the full DirectX suite is probably closer to OpenGL + SDL.

[shining]

There are already too many games running natively on Linux (not even talking about the ones running in wine).
I wasted too much time (and still do) :p

[Kittie Rose]

"Market Share" isn't that valid a reason - game starved linuxites are likely to buy quite a lot of copies of whatever's released, keeping in mind this would be a PORT of a Windows PC game, it makes it seem well worth it. In other words, the OP is talking about developing games ALSO for Linux, not solely for.

The real reason for this, despite Linux becoming quite popular these days, is DirectX, and also a lot of other standards and programs commonly used.

However, you can use Wine to run Multimedia Fusion 2! Yes!

[addicted68098]

Right now Linux has a 3% market share for desktops, so 1.5/50 (3/00 is just too big!) computers worldwide would have Linux installed, and a server market share of 39%, each are expected to rise drastically.

[sailingboarder]

Right now Linux has a 3% market share for desktops, so 1.5/50 (3/00 is just too big!) computers worldwide would have Linux installed, and a server market share of 39%, each are expected to rise drastically.

One thing to keep in mind about marketshare
Most linux users know a thing or two about computers or else they would be using Windows for its "familarity"
A large number of winsows users are "mom and pop" users who only know how to check their email and maybe access the two websites they ever use (my own mom being one of them)
these types of users are not likely to spend money playing video games
however, many computer enthusiasts are also avid gamers

so, while linux holds such a small amount of the desktop market, it probably holds a much large amount of the market that would actually buy a commercial game

[Brunellus]

One thing to keep in mind about marketshare
Most linux users know a thing or two about computers or else they would be using Windows for its "familarity"
A large number of winsows users are "mom and pop" users who only know how to check their email and maybe access the two websites they ever use (my own mom being one of them)
these types of users are not likely to spend money playing video games
however, many computer enthusiasts are also avid gamers

so, while linux holds such a small amount of the desktop market, it probably holds a much large amount of the market that would actually buy a commercial game
I'd like to see some hard numbers on here. I am less than impressed at the actual computer knowledge of many "hardcore gamers."

[Beamerboy]

Right now Linux has a 3% market share for desktops, so 1.5/50 (3/00 is just too big!) computers worldwide would have Linux installed, and a server market share of 39%, each are expected to rise drastically.
Its useful to provide a source when throwing numbers around like that. Even the Linux Registration project admits it is pretty much impossible to estimate how many machines in the world are running Linux and whereas they can make guesses, they are still just guesses.

Paladine

[xopher]

Just thought you'd like to know this, Bioware is considering making another native linux release, called Dragon Age. Seems pretty nifty IMO ;)

Nothings confirmed though so don't get your hopes up too much.

Here's a link for some additional info: http://games.slashdot.org/games/06/11/27/1152247.shtml

[Macintosh Sauce]

Do you actually need to even ask this question? With a market share lower than that of the Macintosh platform, "desktop" Linux will never see any major games.

[xopher]

Wishful thinking is a positive thing, no? ;)

And lets see how GoogleOS plays out - if it'll be a linux-based OS - maybe it'll get some companies to support it game wise too?

[Kristen Lucas]

Right now Linux has a 3% market share for desktops, so 1.5/50 (3/00 is just too big!) computers worldwide would have Linux installed, and a server market share of 39%, each are expected to rise drastically.

Well, the IIS6 and MS Server market share is rising and the Linux server market share is falling so i wouldn't say that the Linux server market share (that has been falling for several years) is going to rise.

[Johnsie]

I say a lot of it boils down to education. Most colleges and schools teach programming for Windows only, not cross-platform programming. Hardly anyone does Linux/cross platform programming/3D courses so the Linux programming knowledge base is very small. I'm not so sure that Macs hold more of the desktop share than Linux... there's a lot of conflicting reports on that but in general a lot of people say they are very close if not even. However if you get out of the house much it's pretty easy to see that Windows has a massive majority just because of how many people use it.

How to get Linux games? EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION.

Also, make things a little more user friendly and organised for developers.

[Beamerboy]

I say a lot of it boils down to education. Most colleges and schools teach programming for Windows only, not cross-platform programming. Hardly anyone does Linux/cross platform programming/3D courses so the Linux programming knowledge base is very small. I'm not so sure that Macs hold more of the desktop share than Linux... there's a lot of conflicting reports on that but in general a lot of people say they are very close if not even. However if you get out of the house much it's pretty easy to see that Windows has a massive majority just because of how many people use it.

How to get Linux games? EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION.

Also, make things a little more user friendly and organised for developers.
Funny you should say that, I just wrote on article on this issue last Thursday:

http://blog.paladine.org.uk/#item7968

Paladine

[Bezmotivnik]

Its useful to provide a source when throwing numbers around like that. Even the Linux Registration project admits it is pretty much impossible to estimate how many machines in the world are running Linux and whereas they can make guesses, they are still just guesses.
Yes "3% of the desktop market" is utter baloney.

There's absolutely no way to tell accurately, but if anyone's expecting to find three pure Linux boxes in any random marketplace sample of a hundred home and office desktop computers, he's dreaming...which of course is what fanboys do best. :rolleyes:

I'd be astonished if it even approached 1%, as would be most disinterested parties who have given the matter some thought.

[Johnsie]

Google trends are a good way to poll things since they have a large number of visitors and are not forced on users by an specific o/s. Other than that you can collate usage data realeased from many major websites that are also platform independent. It's possible to measure but there will always be a margin of error.

[Bezmotivnik]

Google trends are a good way to poll things since they have a large number of visitors and are not forced on users by an specific o/s.
The bulk of the world's desktop computers are not even connected to the Internet, according to articles I've read. The disagreement is only about how large a majority.

Google would be more accurate to poll than, say, LinuxNewbie, but any OS figure based on Internet traffic hits is going to be misleading in itself.

[Brunellus]

Wishful thinking is a positive thing, no? ;)

And lets see how GoogleOS plays out - if it'll be a linux-based OS - maybe it'll get some companies to support it game wise too?
google's OK. I'm a bit diffident with them as far as the freedom aspect goes, though.

Dream on about googleos. It ain't happening unless google tries to be the Ma Bell of our generation and gives away "free" computers locked into GoogleOS.

[Beamerboy]

The bulk of the world's desktop computers are not even connected to the Internet, according to articles I've read. The disagreement is only about how large a majority.

Google would be more accurate to poll than, say, LinuxNewbie, but any OS figure based on Internet traffic hits is going to be misleading in itself.
Couldn't had said it better myself. Furthermore with DHCP used by a very large percentage of the ISPs out there, it is impossible to qualify such statistics even with google trends.

There isn't even any way to know just how many computers are actually in use on the planet, let alone which of them are using what OS.

Paladine

[Bezmotivnik]

it is impossible to qualify such statistics even with google trends.
Doesn't every tech-savvy WWW user have all that datamining scripting blocked in his browser anyway? ;)

I do.

[Kristen Lucas]

Couldn't had said it better myself. Furthermore with DHCP used by a very large percentage of the ISPs out there, it is impossible to qualify such statistics even with google trends.

There isn't even any way to know just how many computers are actually in use on the planet, let alone which of them are using what OS.

Paladine

You REALLY don't understand how a DHCP server works, do you?

Lets say that around 90% of all DHCP Servers connected to the internet are Linux (and if i you don't know that, it's 89-91, somewhere around 90%) now about 99% of the machines that use these servers to get their IP's are Windows machines, so if google eported the DHCP server instead of the actual client, THEN Windows will gain.

Your theory just got debunked, if the tests registered the DHCP servers (which would be utterly daft as they have one IP each) then Linux would be ruling the world according to all tests.

Truth is that they are pretty much accurate except for HP-UX and older Solaris servers. Regarding Linux, it's pretty much spot on.

[Kristen Lucas]

google's OK. I'm a bit diffident with them as far as the freedom aspect goes, though.

Dream on about googleos. It ain't happening unless google tries to be the Ma Bell of our generation and gives away "free" computers locked into GoogleOS.

GoogleOS could not be sold nor distributed according to the GPL it is made from, using it in house is all good hough.

[BuffaloX]

There are some bright spots in the Linux gaming scene. But they are few.
Game development today is very expensive for top games, and the Linux market share doesn't cover the extra development cost, except if you already use technology suitable for Linux like OpenGL.

Maybe we will see an influx of games from 3rd world countries adopting Linux more willingly than western countries.

hopefully the developers will begin to recognize that using Microsoft Visual Studio isn't in their best interest. And the software houses will look for more independent development environments. Then they have almost nowhere to turn but Linux!

Linux has many great tools for game development, so I believe Linux is ready for game software houses to port.

Regarding statistics:
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm

[Beamerboy]

You REALLY don't understand how a DHCP server works, do you?

Lets say that around 90% of all DHCP Servers connected to the internet are Linux (and if i you don't know that, it's 89-91, somewhere around 90%) now about 99% of the machines that use these servers to get their IP's are Windows machines, so if google eported the DHCP server instead of the actual client, THEN Windows will gain.

Your theory just got debunked, if the tests registered the DHCP servers (which would be utterly daft as they have one IP each) then Linux would be ruling the world according to all tests.

Truth is that they are pretty much accurate except for HP-UX and older Solaris servers. Regarding Linux, it's pretty much spot on.
You should really put your brain in gear before you type, you might make more sense. Let me explain to you in plain english.

It is is nothing to do with the DHCP servers, the DHCP server don't generally query google to find things. The -point- is with DHCP IP allocation an IP can hit google one minute running an MS OS then the next minute the TTL for the IP could have expired, the IP been allocated to someone else on some -other- OS who then hits google.

Similarly, lets take a Linux user for purpose of example. Linux User "A" visits google an average of 120 times a week, thats 480 times a month or 5760 times a year. Linux User "A"'s ISP utilises DHCP for IP allocation among their customers, lets say a TTL of 72 hours, that approximately 111 IPs per year (excluding the chance that they may be allocated the same IP n number of times). From the perspective of google that person actually looks like 100 people over the course of the year. That person is 1 computer and 1 OS not 100. Multiply this scenario by 10s of millions and you are left with a gaping margin of error.

It is completely impossible to even begin to guess how many computers are in use on the planet, not to mention that number changes every single minute of every single day. If it is impossible to know how many computers exist, then there is no argument that can suggest the number of linux or windows or mac or sun or ibm or hp proliant or any other architecture/OS. It is literally impossible and any statistics are nothing other than best guess and are completely unqualifiable.

Is that plain enough for you?

Paladine

[Johnsie]

If people had read my post properly I did say there was a margin of error lol. I'm quite aware that not all computers are connected to the net and that some people use proxies to access the web. That's why I said "margin of error" :-)


I'd rather stick with the topic of gaming though. I think The existence of Visual Studio is a big problem. It is very expensive but it's what most graduates have learnt while at college. People continue using what they use because they are happy/confident with it, pretty much the same reasons why people stick with Windows. Also, If I forked out a lot of money for my copy of VS I would want to get my moneys worth from that product. Linux developers really need to start passing on their skills and teaching people. Maybe a Linux game/program programming course or something like that would be beneficial.

Linux needs good structures to encourage this:
-Education/knowedge bases so people can learn or be taught in a good way.
-Decent development packages with good support mechinsisms so users can get help easily.
-Better 3d design packages
-Raising awareness that cross-platform means more money because it's not just limited to Windows

[mr_niceguy]

Game development today is very expensive for top games, and the Linux market share doesn't cover the extra development cost, except if you already use technology suitable for Linux like OpenGL.

I looked at getting into game development and it isn't that hard to find cross platform development tools that simplify the porting process.

If you think about it, neither the PS3 or Wii are running Windows. They aren't officially running Linux either although they are Linux compatible. But my point is that most serious game development studios are in a perfectly good position to port to OSX and Linux if they are in the mood. So yes, it is a market decision.

For me the lack of third party Linux games and other software used to point a point of aggravation but it has since become a point of comfort. It took me far too long to understand the actual value of "free as in speech" software compared to "free as in beer" software. The less proprietary software available for Linux the better. Why should I want to install anything which cannot be 100% verified malware free? You need source code to prove that beyond any possible doubt. Just because a given program doesn't appear to hurt me today doesn't guarantee it won't start attacking me tomorrow. Anything less than source disclosure needs to be considered a security breach.

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I'll play proprietary games on a separate system, in my case a console.

[BuffaloX]

It is completely impossible to even begin to guess how many computers are in use on the planet, not to mention that number changes every single minute of every single day. If it is impossible to know how many computers exist, then there is no argument that can suggest the number of linux or windows or mac or sun or ibm or hp proliant or any other architecture/OS. It is literally impossible and any statistics are nothing other than best guess and are completely unqualifiable.
Paladine

Easy now;)
Your explanation about DHCP is of course 100% correct, but it's not impossible to make a gues, we can even make an estimate. :p
There are about 1,000,000,000 PCs that have internet connection in the world. So at least we can conclude that the number of PC's is larger than that. But that number dosn't say how many people own a PC, and thus likely to buy PC games.
But we are of course free to speculate.

This link shows the number of PCs in the world.
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm

About the marketshare of each platform that's much more uncertain.
Some statistics say 0.25 % Linux, and I have even seen some at 8 - 10%.
But they were too small to use for any meaningfull statistics.

The best one I have found yet is w3schools, because it dates back several years, and is platform independent, and has reasonably high hit count.
Only drawback is that it is a site for web developers, and therefore targets a narrow section of users.
What we can safely say that Linux is growing in a growing market.
If this trend continues Linux will be market leader eventually.

[Beamerboy]

Easy now;)
Your explanation about DHCP is of course 100% correct, but it's not impossible to make a gues, we can even make an estimate. :p
There are about 1,000,000,000 PCs that have internet connection in the world. So at least we can conclude that the number of PC's is larger than that. But that number dosn't say how many people own a PC, and thus likely to buy PC games.
But we are of course free to speculate.

This link shows the number of PCs in the world.
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm

About the marketshare of each platform that's much more uncertain.
Some statistics say 0.25 % Linux, and I have even seen some at 8 - 10%.
But they were too small to use for any meaningfull statistics.

The best one I have found yet is w3schools, because it dates back several years, and is platform independent, and has reasonably high hit count.
Only drawback is that it is a site for web developers, and therefore targets a narrow section of users.
What we can safely say that Linux is growing in a growing market.
If this trend continues Linux will be market leader eventually.
It is impossible to determine the number of PCs in the world based on the number of PCs with internet access. Even stating they know the number of PCs with an internet connection is speculation, there is simply no way of knowing.

As a social scientist I spend a lot of time looking at statistics and using statistics for analysis is inherantly flawed, especially in this issue.

Yes you can estimate but it is literally impossible to qualify those estimates.

Paladine

[grte]

There is actually an amazing amount of games available for Linux - it's just that most of them are not shop sold so, they aren't 'mainstream' and are developed by a few people in their bedrooms, or by small games houses.

What he said. If you're looking for some of those games, the Linux Game Tome (http://www.happypenguin.org/) is a good place to start.

[BuffaloX]

I looked at getting into game development and it isn't that hard to find cross platform development tools that simplify the porting process.

If you think about it, neither the PS3 or Wii are running Windows. They aren't officially running Linux either although they are Linux compatible. But my point is that most serious game development studios are in a perfectly good position to port to OSX and Linux if they are in the mood. So yes, it is a market decision.


If you can port a game for 2% of the cost of the original development, but only expect 1% more sales from it, it's bad business, your money would be better spent developing a new game.
Crossplatform game development is possible. But if you have an existing codebase, that relies on proprietary technology. transfering that can be expensive.
And with expectations of only 1 % extra sales, the incentive isn't very high.

Truly free software is cool.:) Also games. But some proprietary games can't be matched by free games. Just like I unfortunately use a proprietary graphics driver, because it's the only way to have OpenGL on my system.

[falkenberg_cph]

Do you actually need to even ask this question? With a market share lower than that of the Macintosh platform, "desktop" Linux will never see any major games.

Well i expected the answer to be obvious. But then again, there could reason other than that. Since i dont know anything about games programming, i didnt realize that it would be a big job to go from windows to linux.

I did however make for a good conversation ;)

/Carsten

[KingBahamut]

To the OP.

I suspect that it is the feeling that there is little money to be made by developing games for Open Sourced projects. Oddly enough a variety of businesses are successful at creating such games, they just arent widely known of or accepted.

http://gaming.gwos.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=66&Itemid=76

[shining]

If you can port a game for 2% of the cost of the original development, but only expect 1% more sales from it, it's bad business, your money would be better spent developing a new game.


Why exactly?
The cost of 1% more sales could be infinitely more than 2% of the cost of the original development.

[holylucifer]

well... im looking for ece bonus map pack for ut 2004...linux.. i just swiched from windows xp , after reading that > http://100777.com/node/1120 .

Well if i run out of patience ill just manually install this patch...somehow.

[falkenberg_cph]

To the OP.

I suspect that it is the feeling that there is little money to be made by developing games for Open Sourced projects. Oddly enough a variety of businesses are successful at creating such games, they just arent widely known of or accepted.

http://gaming.gwos.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=66&Itemid=76

To be a bit of an *******, they all suck dont they!

Ok, seriously, they are not really next generation games are they.
And to my knowledge, as soon as they manage to make anything remotely funny, they sell it. [-( tsk tsk tsk


/Carsten

[Brunellus]

To be a bit of an *******, they all suck dont they!

Ok, seriously, they are not really next generation games are they.
And to my knowledge, as soon as they manage to make anything remotely funny, they sell it. [-( tsk tsk tsk

/Carsten
if you want games, you know where to find them. Dual-boot to Windows, buy the Console of Your Choice, or live with the choices available to you in Linux.

[falkenberg_cph]

Ok ok, didnt mean to **** you off like that. I dont want games, i was just curious why they werent being developed for linux.
And i was thinking about the commercial games in particular.

/Carsten