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dolson
November 26th, 2006, 04:37 PM
After the underhanded tactics Mark has used to try and lure away developers and ultimately sink openSUSE, I have decided to go back to Debian.

His post (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03765.html) makes me sick to my stomach. Canonical is a for-profit organization, and there is no inherent problem with that, until you start attacking others and trying to hold your head higher than the rest, basing it on moral grounds that you are not fully footed on anyhow.

This is a sad, sad time in Linux's history.

The only choice now, for those who want to use a truly open Linux, truly free Linux, and have none of this ******** hating going on between the big corporations and the up-and-coming small fry operations. There are many truly free, truly open, truly community-oriented distributions out there, and Ubuntu used to fit this, but without Mark's financial backing, it would totally fall apart. It is sad, and dangerous to have such an interest in a distro such as this, run by a mad dictator. He could easily take down Ubuntu tomorrow with one small decision. And I don't want to be around here if he were to pick up his ball and go home.

Debian isn't going to vanish, and I don't wish ill on Ubuntu either. Any packaging I do in the future will end up in Debian now instead of Ubuntu, but since Ubuntu leeches the base from Debian, Canonical will still benefit from my work as well. That is a good thing.

Anyhow, this is my testimonial. It is with a heavy heart that I do this, because Ubuntu has so much going for it. But if I were a SUSE user, I could not possibly continue on using it after the Microsoft-Novell announcement. So too, after reading the message from Mark, I can not possibly continue on supporting his goal of world domination.

Blessings to you all, and may this all be sorted out for the good in the end.

ButteBlues
November 26th, 2006, 04:40 PM
I think you are vastly over-reacting to Mark's post.


If you want to read that far into it, I'd avoid Debian and Gentoo as well, as, in case you missed it, he told the openSUSE developers that those distros were viable options as well. :rolleyes:

halfvolle melk
November 26th, 2006, 04:50 PM
That's a shame dolson. Thanks for your efforts on the studio project and best of luck!

dolson
November 26th, 2006, 04:52 PM
a simple façade:

I am not going to avoid distros that Mark has no involvement in simply because he mentioned them by name in the last sentence of his email in a shoddy attempt to douse some of the flames he ignited by his five earlier paragraphs.

The fact is that he is calling openSUSE developers to have a wake-up call about the "evils" of the Novell-Microsoft deal. But really, the situation is not much better here at Ubuntu. Just because Canonical is anti-Microsoft doesn't mean that it magically makes everything he does right.

The fact is that it was wrong of him to do what he did, and my opinion is that I should not be a part of it anymore. Your opinion is to the contrary, and that's ok with me. I didn't post my above message in an attempt to lure you away from Ubuntu, I was just posting to let people know why I am not going to be participating in Ubuntu-related projects directly anymore, and to express my opinion about the events that transpired.

halfvolle melk:

Thanks for your understanding. Ubuntu Studio is in good hands now, and has been progressing without me. They won't miss me. And as I said, any packaging will be done at Debian's level, and so it'll help Ubuntu Studio in the long run anyhow (I only really care about audio apps).

MetalMusicAddict
November 26th, 2006, 05:33 PM
This situation is unfortunate. You are a founder of Ubuntu Studio and your involvement will be missed.

I actually am reserving judgment about the SUSE list post. Im not entirely sure he posted to the list. There have been other examples of people posting in Marks name before.

-Cory

wedderburn
November 26th, 2006, 05:42 PM
Good luck in your future endevours.

GS2
November 26th, 2006, 05:52 PM
I actually am reserving judgment about the SUSE list post. Im not entirely sure he posted to the list. There have been other examples of people posting in Marks name before.

-Cory
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81
Been confirmed on his own website ;)

ButteBlues
November 26th, 2006, 05:53 PM
dolson,


I think you are drawing connections that don't exist. I read a post on Slashdot that sums it up rather well, in my own opinion.


I don't think that Mark was saying "Hey, come to Ubuntu, we need more developers" or "You should leave Novell now!". It appears to be more of "Hey, if you're leaving, our distribution has got big fast and there is always an opening for someone we know is good at what they do". Well at least it appears that way to me - just a statement made with good intentions that may have been interpreted by others in a different way. Happens all the time...

The "tone" of his post wasn't inflammatory or at all "hey guys come to my distro because it's better". It was nothing more than a simple extension of the hand, so to speak, telling the openSUSE developers to remember that if they wish to leave because of the recetn Novell-Microsoft deal, that there are plenty of distributions that would be more than happy to let them jump on.

He slightly elaborated on Ubuntu, sure, but were it you or I posting on that list, we would as well - because that's what we use.

Was he pandering? Maybe a bit.

But it was well-intentioned and for the benefit of the Linux community at large.


That said, you are a very intelligent and valuable asset to Ubuntu and the forums and it would be an utter shame to see you go. I would rather you weigh the situation a bit more before jumping ship like this.

dolson
November 26th, 2006, 05:58 PM
Hey Cory. I understand your position. It is possible that Mark didn't make the post, and someone just took what he posted on his site (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81) and expounded on it. Either way, I think both are unnecessary, and I am ready to return to Debian. Yeah, I was a founder of Ubuntu Studio, but I merely pointed out that the ball existed and was stationary. You and Joe and the others are the ones who started pushing it.

And thanks wedderburn.

a simple façade, maybe you are right. But has anyone heard anything from him since his post? Not that I can see. And I am certainly not the only person who thought what he did was wrong. Just as you aren't the only one who thought what he did was right. I am not going to insult the intelligence of the openSUSE developers - they know full well that there are other options out there. For Mark to go posting on their mailing list is, at the very least, inappropriate. At least he didn't drive up to them on the street and offer them candy to get into his SUV. I guess.

aysiu
November 26th, 2006, 06:26 PM
Moved to Debian.

imagine
November 26th, 2006, 06:47 PM
Hello dolson,
I can understand you very well, because I'm thinking the same at the moment. Launchpad obviously was only the beginning of all this...

A little introduction: The GPL clearly prohibits to link free with nonfree software - like the kernel with proprietary blobs - and then distribute this together under a (partially) nonfree license. Now, coming up with an opensourced layer that connects the interfaces of the kernel with a driver blob, may(?) be legal by the letters of the GPL but certainly not by its spirit.
Red Hat and also Novell - thats the company Shuttleworth accuses of trying to circumvent the GPL - have dropped all those driver blobs in respect of the GPL! But instead of joining this effort and creating a closed line against AMD and Nvidia, Ubuntu falls in their back (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AcceleratedX). That's not only a betrayal to all people who argued and fought for free software (http://www.advogato.org/person/Burgundavia/diary.html?start=111), but AMD and Nvidia can now also serve as an example to all other companies as "see, you only have to wait long enough, then they'll eat whatever you give them (http://lwn.net/Articles/162686/)".

Not that this isn't bad enough by itself, but now Shuttleworth goes around and accuses *Novell* of trying to circumentvent the GPL. Excuse me but is this some sort of sick joke? Evilness or stupidity? No matter what, but it certainly feels so wrong.

ButteBlues
November 26th, 2006, 06:49 PM
a simple façade, maybe you are right.

Eh, I try. ;)


But has anyone heard anything from him since his post? Not that I can see.

Me either.


And I am certainly not the only person who thought what he did was wrong.

The beauty of the Internet.


Just as you aren't the only one who thought what he did was right.

The beauty of the Internet.


I am not going to insult the intelligence of the openSUSE developers - they know full well that there are other options out there.

Absolutely. But I think about it like this. If my buddy's car breaks down and he has no way to get to work, I'm going to let him know that I'll be more than happy to give him a ride. Of course he's free to find his own solution or find another car or simply repair the current one. But I offer all the same because I care.


For Mark to go posting on their mailing list is, at the very least, inappropriate.

I disagree. I think it was just a sore topic for the openSUSE devs. If Mark had shown up and said "Hey guys, SLAB and Kickoff are both awesome and you guys did a great job on them. I think I'll try and have modified versions defaulted in the next Ubuntu release!" or similar, I think that perhaps some would be cranky, but the more... sensible devs... would just say "Thanks".


At least he didn't drive up to them on the street and offer them candy to get into his SUV. I guess.

"I've got puppies in the back of my van." :-#

Artificial Intelligence
November 27th, 2006, 01:02 PM
Dolson before you leave you might want to read this: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/82

handy
November 28th, 2006, 12:35 PM
Yes, Dolson, please reconsider, interpretation of words, lyrics, poetry, even the most dry scientific discourse is allways a very personal thing...

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/

Thankyou for all the many hours that you have contributed to making Ubuntu Studio a reality.

Rhubarb
November 28th, 2006, 12:57 PM
I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be
controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of
excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to
undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by
Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely
disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and
contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place
to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive
intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other
communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.

Mark
That's Mark's "Disclaimer" if you will.
IMO I have no problems with Mark's correspondence on this matter.
And I'm a bit iffy on the subject of Launchpad.

But for now, ignorance is bliss. Sure if the whole thing blows up I'll move to a different distro.

kerry_s
November 28th, 2006, 01:23 PM
You suck, the boss screws up so your going to jump ship. Everyone has the right to speak there mind. It was all him and he owned up to it, in no way does this affect the users or the distro. If you think your better off somewhere else, than more power to you. Hopefully you don't screw up someday and make some one leave. The man is only human, and we all make mistakes!

angkor
November 28th, 2006, 07:54 PM
The only choice now, for those who want to use a truly open Linux, truly free Linux, and have none of this ******** hating going on between the big corporations and the up-and-coming small fry operations. There are many truly free, truly open, truly community-oriented distributions out there, and Ubuntu used to fit this, but without Mark's financial backing, it would totally fall apart. It is sad, and dangerous to have such an interest in a distro such as this, run by a mad dictator. He could easily take down Ubuntu tomorrow with one small decision. And I don't want to be around here if he were to pick up his ball and go home.


I don't think Ubuntu would totally fall apart if Mark decides to drop the ball. It would probably be a hard time for Ubuntu but the community would probably keep it alive and well.

I think it's a big shame you decided to leave Ubuntu because one man made a mistake (or as you seem to think did a terrible thing). I fail to see why you'd describe him as mad dictator all of a sudden. Are there other reasons you don't like Ubuntu anymore? I mean Canonical was there since the beginning. You knew there was a for-profit organization affiliated with Ubuntu when you got involved. What's changed, is it just his post on the mailing list?

Sorry to see you go.

angryfirelord
November 29th, 2006, 10:13 PM
I think you are severely overreacting to what he said. He's offering an opportunity for those who work at Novell to come work for Canonical. Remember, any company who formed an anti-trust with Microsoft is now out of business. As least working with Canonical will help keep food on their table in case Novell goes belly up (Novell have never done financially well anyway).

Does Canonical seek profits? Yes, but they don't go out of their way to make nothing but profits.

Leech? That's a bit of a strong word, especially since Ubuntu is forking farther away from Debian (which I'm not too fond of).

The way you worded your post, it made it sound like Ubuntu is going to be the next Microsoft, which is far from the truth. Please don't generalize a whole distribution just because of what one person said.

deanlinkous
December 2nd, 2006, 08:27 PM
Oh I think Mark is a very smart guy, he knows you move people inch by inch and that is what he is doing with Ubuntu. One day Ubuntu will be a commercial linux system with plenty of proprietary *goodness* and you won't even think twice about it because he did it slowly instead of pushing it out as a commercial linux.

I am hoping more users/devels move back to debian and that Debian reaffirms that free is what it is all about and commits to that and ROCKS!

RAV TUX
December 3rd, 2006, 01:58 AM
interesting...if you support Debian...you inevitably support Ubuntu...

Your really not jumping ship simply just moving to a different part of the ship...like moving from the Helm to the Boiler Room...

If you were really wanting to make an ethical change you would have moved to a different ship all together perhaps Gentoo...

different ship but same fleet...

Everyone has to make their own decisions for their own reasons...I respect that...wether or not I agree with their reasoning...

I think slinging mud on Mark Shuttleworth while in everybodies full right, is a bit disrespectful to a man who has brought many users to Linux who would have never used Linux in the past...

yet sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees and that is what is most sad here...

adamkane
December 3rd, 2006, 02:05 AM
Shuttleworth has offered up a free open-source OS to the mass of humanity that doesn't have access to a functional OS.

No one has offered anything that tops that!

wieman01
December 3rd, 2006, 02:23 AM
Shuttleworth has offered up a free open-source OS to the mass of humanity that doesn't have access to a functional OS.

No one has offered anything that tops that!
Bill Gates & Warren Buffet are in the process of donating their entire property & fortune to a non-profit organization whose aim is to help millions of people who have no means to undergo proper medical treatment for their life-threatening diseases. Compared with that, Shuttleworth's contribution is peanuts; it's important nonetheless.

zetetic
December 5th, 2006, 02:21 AM
deanlinkous wrote:

«I am hoping more users/devels move back to debian and that Debian reaffirms that free is what it is all about and commits to that and ROCKS!»

I agree with you but after reading your statment I just don't understand why aren't you using Debian instead of GnewSense. Any reasons for that?

zetetic

deanlinkous
December 5th, 2006, 03:11 AM
deanlinkous wrote:

«I am hoping more users/devels move back to debian and that Debian reaffirms that free is what it is all about and commits to that and ROCKS!»

I agree with you but after reading your statment I just don't understand why aren't you using Debian instead of GnewSense. Any reasons for that?

zetetic

OUCH! tough question really...
That would probably have to be more of a PM discussion matter. Probably nothing to fault Debian for but I have a few niggling things that bother me about Debian right now, probably just me though.

Hendrixski
December 8th, 2006, 05:50 PM
Seeing as how Debian is the mother of Ubuntu, and a true revolutionary in the Linux world (I'm talking about inventing apt) we do not lose anything by programmers switching to Debian. That code will trickle down to Ubuntu eventually.

As for Mark's letter to SuSe developers, it's good recruitment. Slick recruitment that would draw development away from Novell. But he's got a business to run.

Say what you will about Novell, they will make Enterprise Linux the next big thing in the business world, and that bodes well for the percentage of Linux users as a whole. No one distro is "better" than another, a Linux developer can hold his/her head up high regardless of which distro he/she contributes to!

greggh
December 10th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Shuttleworth has offered up a free open-source OS to the mass of humanity that doesn't have access to a functional OS.

No one has offered anything that tops that!

Nope, the 1600+ Debian contributors did that. As much as I like Ubuntu, you have to recognize that it's just a tweaked Debian.

mips
December 10th, 2006, 01:52 PM
Anyone here try sidux (http://www.sidux.com/) ? Based on debian sid.

memstat
April 24th, 2008, 09:36 PM
all in all this is one reason text is so impersonal. if u think about it since novell signed with ms it is a slap in the face to all the gpl devs as what they believe in is being sold. i dont think mark truly meant for everyone to take it the way they did. it seems more like an open letter to gpl devs working for the opensuse project, if its not gpl'd how can it technically be open...and yes ubuntu is taking off it has been for years, and one thing about any community it is strength in numbers but maybe he didnt go the right route in his letter...but all in all if novell is going to sign with ms to me that is a slap in the face. i dunno it is damned if you do damned if you dont all i have to say dont take sides because one day the wall will fall and its best to be ontop of it looking down because when it falls you wont be under the rubble of deceit.

shawn

thrice upon a time
April 26th, 2008, 11:07 AM
Holy thread necromancy Batman!

Artificial Intelligence
April 26th, 2008, 11:32 AM
necromancy? Thread closed!