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cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:09 PM
It seems that more and more threads are getting closed or moved with the slightest mention of the M word or the symbol "M$" or with anything that is not necessarily the standard, ie) EasyUbuntu and Automatix in the wrong place or context.

What do you guys/gals think? Have you had a post closed or moved? What were you told? Does this make you feel like you are not being treated like an adult?

This Thread is not here to start a fight, so please be civil ::grin::

IYY
November 25th, 2006, 10:11 PM
I think this is a natural progression, considering that Ubuntu is becoming so much more popular and the number of users on the forums grows very quickly.

KiwiNZ
November 25th, 2006, 10:14 PM
Moved to an appropriate Forum

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:14 PM
I think this is a natural progression, considering that Ubuntu is becoming so much more popular and the number of users on the forums grows very quickly.

Interesting....
Im curious though, if it is natural, then why are the natural opinions being hidden, in your opinion?

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:15 PM
Moved to an appropriate Forum

Sorry K,

I thought this would be ok for the Cafe....
my bad.

KiwiNZ
November 25th, 2006, 10:16 PM
You are referring to old and boring habit of referring to Microsoft as
Micro$oft or M$.

Its been seen a zillion times , its old ,its boring and its somewhat annoying.

Lets move on

Artificial Intelligence
November 25th, 2006, 10:19 PM
I'm with KiwiNZ on this one.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:20 PM
You are referring to old and boring habit of referring to Microsoft as
Micro$oft or M$.

Its been seen a zillion times , its old ,its boring and its somewhat annoying.

Lets move on

Well not just that one thing,

I mean everything....
Several subjects, many to do with MS, but some not.

Some might view this as censorship, or management...as if there is an agenda.
I am not trying to start stuff, I am really interested in what everyone, staff and no staff thinks.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:22 PM
I'm with KiwiNZ on this one.

I am not for or against anyone in this thread.....really just trying to get some input.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:32 PM
By the way, these are not questions pertaining to forum features.
This is a question I thought would go in the Cafe..

Artificial Intelligence
November 25th, 2006, 10:34 PM
We have some policy/board rules both for users and staff. If the content in a thread is way over what is allowed it usually closed, but again it depends what's about. We usually discuss such matter.

aysiu
November 25th, 2006, 10:35 PM
Isn't closing threads being... "tough," not "soft"?

In answer to your question, I don't think there is any significant difference between how the forums are managed now and how they were managed in May 2005 when I first joined them.

Moving threads is a good thing. Threads should be posted in their appropriate subforums. Closing threads... well, I think that should be a last resort, and KiwiNZ and I disagree about when exactly a thread should be closed, but seeing as how KiwiNZ has been around here since the very beginning, I don't think the moderation has changed much.

P.S. I too tire of seeing M$, Windblows, Windoze, Microshaft, and all the other "clever" mocking variations of Microsoft and Windows. They're not clever any more, and they serve no constructive purpose. If you have valid critiques of Windows or Microsoft, type in them in plain English.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:38 PM
We have some policy/board rules both for users and staff. If the content in a thread is way over what is allowed it usually closed, but again it depends what's about. We usually discuss such matter.

I have no question that matters are discussed among admins of the forum. And that is a good thing. I had a very good experience with Jenda about this issue.
My question is are the rules getting to restrictive?
I believed this was a valid question to ask both staff and members of the forum. I stated that it was posted in pure interest, not to start a fight and I asked that no one starts a fight in the post.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:39 PM
Isn't closing threads being... "tough," not "soft"?

In answer to your question, I don't think there is any significant difference between how the forums are managed now and how they were managed in May 2005 when I first joined them.

Moving threads is a good thing. Threads should be posted in their appropriate subforums. Closing threads... well, I think that should be a last resort, and KiwiNZ and I disagree about when exactly a thread should be closed, but seeing as how KiwiNZ has been around here since the very beginning, I don't think the moderation has changed much.

P.S. I too tire of seeing M$, Windblows, Windoze, Microshaft, and all the other "clever" mocking variations of Microsoft and Windows. They're not clever any more, and they serve no constructive purpose. If you have valid critiques of Windows or Microsoft, type in them in plain English.


I ment soft on content.....maybe tough of what can be said. I totally see your point though.

matthew
November 25th, 2006, 10:44 PM
I have no question that matters are discussed among admins of the forum. And that is a good thing. I had a very good experience with Jenda about this issue.
My question is are the rules getting to restrictive?
I believed this was a valid question to ask both staff and members of the forum. I stated that it was posted in pure interest, not to start a fight and I asked that no one starts a fight in the post.I've seen little to no change in the actual rules* since I joined in April 2005, approximately 178000 users ago. I think what you are experiencing is that we do more now simply because of the greater volume of posts, etc. If we could measure as a percentage of posts that get moved, etc., I wouldn't be surprised if the staff interaction is actually less now than it used to be. I don't have actual figures to back that up and I'm not sure any exist anyway, so that's just my opinion/sense.

*Except that they are much more clearly stated and evenly applied now.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:50 PM
I've seen little to no change in the actual rules* since I joined in April 2005, approximately 178000 users ago. I think what you are experiencing is that we do more now simply because of the greater volume of posts, etc. If we could measure as a percentage of posts that get moved, etc., I wouldn't be surprised if the staff interaction is actually less now than it used to be. I don't have actual figures to back that up and I'm not sure any exist anyway, so that's just my opinion/sense.

*Except that they are much more clearly stated and evenly applied now.

I definitely see what you mean about the number of users increasing and I agree with that possibly leading to more posts being closed. But it has also seemed to me that the actual content being allow maybe, only in some instances, censored more now then before. Not just moved but cloed. Content that seemed to be alright a year ago. I just feel like I missed the memo.

KiwiNZ
November 25th, 2006, 11:12 PM
Isn't closing threads being... "tough," not "soft"?

In answer to your question, I don't think there is any significant difference between how the forums are managed now and how they were managed in May 2005 when I first joined them.

Moving threads is a good thing. Threads should be posted in their appropriate subforums. Closing threads... well, I think that should be a last resort, and KiwiNZ and I disagree about when exactly a thread should be closed, but seeing as how KiwiNZ has been around here since the very beginning, I don't think the moderation has changed much.

P.S. I too tire of seeing M$, Windblows, Windoze, Microshaft, and all the other "clever" mocking variations of Microsoft and Windows. They're not clever any more, and they serve no constructive purpose. If you have valid critiques of Windows or Microsoft, type in them in plain English.

And I completely agree with Aysiu disagreeing with me , I encourage it.I do not have monopoly on being right.

Its a strenght of our staff team that they do put their view forward , And in staff forums , myself , Ubuntu Geek and Jdong listen and learn from the team .

KiwiNZ
November 25th, 2006, 11:14 PM
P.S. I too tire of seeing M$, Windblows, Windoze, Microshaft, and all the other "clever" mocking variations of Microsoft and Windows. They're not clever any more, and they serve no constructive purpose. If you have valid critiques of Windows or Microsoft, type in them in plain English.

Amen , that is precisely what I mean .Well said Aysiu

chaosgeisterchen
November 25th, 2006, 11:28 PM
Microsoft isn't too hard to be spelled so I expect from every user, if he wants to talk about Microsoft he should call it that way or MS, which is the appropiate abbreviation. People should not wonder if they get flamed for those expressions using the dollar-sign.

The Microsoft community acts with Linux the same way I assume, but I do not know which terms they use. As a conclusion I have to say that Microsoft is still Microsoft for me and not M$. If anyone feels pressed to use those unappropiate terms I will simply not take him serious.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 11:30 PM
P.S. I too tire of seeing M$, Windblows, Windoze, Microshaft, and all the other "clever" mocking variations of Microsoft and Windows. They're not clever any more, and they serve no constructive purpose. If you have valid critiques of Windows or Microsoft, type in them in plain English.

Why is not ok to insult microsoft. They want to distroy open source completely. I do not understand why it is no longer politcally correct to refer to microsoft as what it really is. I realize that many of these same views get old after a while, especially for the veterans, but alot of the new comers are just realizing what you have know for a very long time. And at the end of a flaming post I think that it should be good to all agree that its M$, MicroCrap, MicroShaft.........and not just <3 Microsoft <3...

I think as long as the forum promotes Nix in general, we should all be free to express our opinions or habits(M$) of the M-Soft empire until linux/unix rules the world.:-D

`

John.Michael.Kane
November 25th, 2006, 11:36 PM
cantormath The staff here never want to close threads,however. it does need to be done sometimes.

Also It's not so much the content that is posted that invokes the thread closings.It comes down to how the content is received,and dealt with by users who choose to post in threads that may be of an edgy nature that ultimately ends in it being close.

The best way to keep threads from closing is to keep discussions civil,and on the topic,and ignore those who are posting in hopes of starting flame wars etc.

I also agree with aysiu that the nonstandard spelling of Microsoft,and the bashing needs to stop.

cantormath theres other ways to get the point across without the use of the names your talking about.


Just my thoughts.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 11:45 PM
cantormath The staff here never want to close threads,however. it does need to be done sometimes.

Also It's not so much the content that is posted that invokes the thread closings.It comes down to how the content is received,and dealt with by users who choose to post in threads that may be of an edgy nature that ultimately ends in it being close.

The best way to keep threads from closing is to keep discussions civil,and on the topic,and ignore those who are posting in hopes of starting flame wars etc.

I also agree with aysiu that the nonstandard spelling of Microsoft,and the bashing needs to stop.

cantormath theres other ways to get the point across without the use of the names your talking about.


Just my thoughts.

I generally do not insist on the name calling....simply, I do not see a problem with others refering to microsoft as a money-only, open source ending company...as long as it stays civil and doesnt go into a cursing rant with lots of pour language...

Johnsie
November 25th, 2006, 11:47 PM
My opinion, when you start to get too heavily involved or emotional with forums it's time to get out of the house more. I've let some forums and the way they work get to me before and the best cure for that is staying away from them for a while.... Especially when you get into a flamewar or actually become angry or upset in any way by things people do.

There will always be people out there who get power trip, want to be right all the time or want to have the final say. The best thing to do is to not let things like that get to you, it's a big world out there so there's plenty of better things to do than worry about forum people :-)

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 11:50 PM
My opinion, when you start to get too heavily involved or emotional with forums it's time to get out of the house more. I've let some forums and the way they work get to me before and the best cure for that is staying away from them.... Especially when you get into a flamewar or actually become angry or upset in any way by things people do.

I agree, I am on vacation and so I am sitting infront of the computer this weekend catching up. Whether it be once a year or once a day though, I still think folk in the forum should be able insult or degrade microsoft in civil way in passing. ESPECIALLY with all the novell crap. `I saw a post today bashing on Shuttleworth, to whom we would not have ubuntu without, but a little bashing in passing at microsoft's expense is not allowed. I say again, Microsoft wants to destroy open source. I really dont see the harm in folks crapping on them with a "M$" here and there.

ubuntu-geek
November 25th, 2006, 11:51 PM
Regarding Microsoft threads etc.. You can view our staff policy here which has been in effect for almost a year now.

http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy

Specifically #9


RTFM/I hate linux/I hate Microsoft threads:
As the community grows these types of threads will be more prominent. We need to make sure we can try to steer these conversations into a positive discussions, however in many cases these threads will only end in hurt feelings and will be locked. If the thread cannot be steered into a clean discussion the staff member who locks it needs to be fully supported by staff.

Stemp
November 25th, 2006, 11:57 PM
I totally agree with Micro$oft or M$ posts. This is childist and boring.
But what about EasyUbuntu and Automatix ? Is there a reason ?

cantormath
November 26th, 2006, 12:13 AM
I totally agree with Micro$oft or M$ posts. This is childist and boring.
But what about EasyUbuntu and Automatix ? Is there a reason ?

It seems that some of the developers of easyUbuntu get mad when folk preach Automatix. I am not a preacher of either, however I have used Automatix, and I like it better then Easy Ubuntu.

cantormath
November 26th, 2006, 12:18 AM
Regarding Microsoft threads etc.. You can view our staff policy here which has been in effect for almost a year now.

http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy

Specifically #9

Saying "M$" is a far stretch from saying "I Hate microsoft", even if it is a bit childish. Plus, the forum is for kids too. ::grin::

and in regards to number 9, I see just about every single portition of that rule being broken just about everyday in many many threads...

ubuntu-geek
November 26th, 2006, 12:27 AM
Saying "M$" is a far stretch from saying "I Hate microsoft", even if it is a bit childish. Plus, the forum is for kids too. ::grin::

and in regards to number 9, I see just about every single portition of that rule being broken just about everyday in many many threads...
It's impossible for us to view every thread here. We do what we can when we see it. Most of us have been around since the beginning and we can spot a train wreck.

I'm not really certain what this thread is trying to achieve.

chimay1
November 26th, 2006, 12:48 AM
Saying "M$" is a far stretch from saying "I Hate microsoft", even if it is a bit childish. Plus, the forum is for kids too. ::grin::

and in regards to number 9, I see just about every single portition of that rule being broken just about everyday in many many threads...

The two statements seem very different. One seems to be, as stated above, a comment in passing, while the other is pure hate. I think saying I hate linux or Microsoft is wrong. It does not seem wrong to say M$, or other subtle statements.

OH OH, but I do agree that M$ does want to destroy open source, and that is why I switched to linux.........and I love it!

cantormath
November 26th, 2006, 01:04 AM
The two statements seem very different. One seems to be, as stated above, a comment in passing, while the other is pure hate. I think saying I hate linux or Microsoft is wrong. It does not seem wrong to say M$, or other subtle statements.

OH OH, but I do agree that M$ does want to destroy open source, and that is why I switched to linux.........and I love it!

Well you see that is what I am saying....It seems gentle enough to use the occasional M$ here and there......as long as we are civil......

So thats my question. Seems there is a special standard for Microsoft comments in a linux forum...what do you say?

chimay1
November 26th, 2006, 01:07 AM
Well you see that is what I am saying....It seems gentle enough to use the occasional M$ here and there......as long as we are civil......

So thats my question. Seems there is a special standard for Microsoft comments in a linux forum...what do you say?

It appears there is something about making those comments in ubuntu forum. It does not work that way in the Suse forum. But I am new to Ubuntu. I got sick of RPMs and I was hoping to get off of windows completely.

Do you know how to get codecs for Music and videos and stuff for ubuntu? It does not seem to work the same here as it does for SuSE.

cantormath
November 26th, 2006, 01:09 AM
It appears there is something about making those comments in ubuntu forum. It does not work that way in the Suse forum. But I am new to Ubuntu. I got sick of RPMs and I was hoping to get off of windows completely.

Do you know how to get codecs for Music and videos and stuff for ubuntu? It does not seem to work the same here as it does for SuSE.


Weill Welcome to UBUNTU!!
There is automatix and EasyUbuntu. Both will Install everything that you mentioned. I would use automatix.

chimay1
November 26th, 2006, 01:10 AM
Weill Welcome to UBUNTU!!
There is automatix and EasyUbuntu. Both will Install everything that you mentioned. I would use automatix.

Thanks a lot

kerry_s
November 26th, 2006, 01:13 AM
Personally, if it were my forum i would just delete all threads that have nothing to do with ubuntu. It's threads like this that serve no purpose at all, other than taking up precious server space. This is a ubuntu forum, to help people with ubuntu, but it's fast becoming nothing more than a huge chat room. Just my 2 cents & my opinion.

cantormath
November 26th, 2006, 01:16 AM
Personally, if it were my forum i would just delete all threads that have nothing to do with ubuntu. It's threads like this that serve no purpose at all, other than taking up precious server space. This is a ubuntu forum, to help people with ubuntu, but it's fast becoming nothing more than a huge chat room. Just my 2 cents & my opinion.

Well I think the purpose of these Threads are to make sure these subjects do not bleed into the more technical posts and threads. This is kind of like a firing range.

kerry_s
November 26th, 2006, 03:09 AM
Well I think the purpose of these Threads are to make sure these subjects do not bleed into the more technical posts and threads. This is kind of like a firing range.

That's all fine and dandy, but post's that aren't help related push posts that need help back & if they get past page 10 there out of view. Hopefully the person who posts will bump it back to the front, but sometimes that don't happen.

Circus-Killer
November 26th, 2006, 03:22 AM
That's all fine and dandy, but post's that aren't help related push posts that need help back & if they get past page 10 there out of view. Hopefully the person who posts will bump it back to the front, but sometimes that don't happen.

this forum is called "forum feedback & help". i would say this falls under the category of forum feedback.

can't say i agree much with the original post though.

23meg
November 26th, 2006, 03:26 AM
Seems there is a special standard for Microsoft comments in a linux forum...what do you say?I've never seen anything constructive come out of a MS / Windows bashing thread or conversation that goes on for pages and pages. If you want to hurt MS, do something productive for the FOSS community instead of blabbering for hours about how much exactly Windows sucks.The policy in effect, as well as the overall attitude of the community, tries to turn such conversations in to positive ones, and often succeeds; when it fails, the useless threads get merged into other useless ones, or get closed; I say good riddance, and haven't seen a misjudged thread of this sort yet. You also haven't pointed to any specific example.

PriceChild
November 26th, 2006, 03:49 AM
Personally, if it were my forum i would just delete all threads that have nothing to do with ubuntu. It's threads like this that serve no purpose at all, other than taking up precious server space. This is a ubuntu forum, to help people with ubuntu, but it's fast becoming nothing more than a huge chat room. Just my 2 cents & my opinion.Yeah i'd go with this one...

ubuntuforums.org is meant to be a support forum first and foremost.

We are official, and thus represent the Ubuntu community. This is why we try and keep everything clean in language etc. and impose restrictions. We NEED to be work & family safe in order to cater for everyone.

cantormath
November 26th, 2006, 07:07 AM
I've never seen anything constructive come out of a MS / Windows bashing thread or conversation that goes on for pages and pages.

We were talking about the use of M$ and premptively deleting threads because of what people might do, but only in certain cases, because it is not always, as mentioned above, the case that every thread can be read. Again, I usually do not care for the use of M$ either, however I do not see a good reason for not allowing it. I also think it is wrong to cancel a thread because of what people might do or say.

I am not advocating pages and pages of windows bashing.

KiwiNZ
November 26th, 2006, 07:53 AM
It has been stated on many many occasions, these Forums are the Official Ubuntu Forums, as such we have standards to maintain.

This is a Moderated Forum, that fact is up front and stated clearly when you join.And is clearly stated in many areas of the Forum.

Our staff are experienced and have seen most of it over and over , they can see a thread that will turn bad very quiclky. We prefer to stop that from happening.

matthew
November 26th, 2006, 10:32 AM
Our staff are experienced and have seen most of it over and over , they can see a thread that will turn bad very quiclky. We prefer to stop that from happening.I can't speak for everyone but some of us have years and years of Usenet newsgroup experience that predates the existence of web forums and even BBS experience that predates public access to the internet (yep, that includes me...I have my first BBS account in the 1980's and my first email account in 1987--man, I'm getting old). We do tend to be able to spot with pretty good accuracy when and where things are going to go off course, but sometimes we make mistakes.

RChickenMan
November 27th, 2006, 09:20 PM
I think that free speech should be a core value of a community based around an open source software project such as Ubuntu. It is okay for mods to move topics to more appropriate forums, but never remove or lock topics. Perhaps "the backyard" should be used even more than it is now; a thread should never be locked or deleted, just moved to this designated area.

aysiu
November 27th, 2006, 09:38 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say we should never lock a thread, but I will say I have rarely locked threads, and I view locking as a last resort.

I generally move threads or posts that seem posted in inappropriate places. If there are blatantly offensive posts in an otherwise-productive thread, I will move the offensive posts to the Backyard or the Jail.

But sometimes threads from the very start are unproductive, harmful even, and should be closed. For example, if someone started a thread called, "Windows users are so stupid" in which all the posts made fun of Windows users, there would be no point in allowing that thread to continue, as its entire point is to make fun of people.

However, if someone started a thread called "When is it a good time to use Windows?" in which the main discussion is about appropriate uses for Windows or what kinds of users would be best suited to Windows, the thread should remain open. The one or two posts saying, "Only idiots should use Windows" would be moved to the Jail.

That's my take on it.

cantormath
December 3rd, 2006, 11:58 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say we should never lock a thread, but I will say I have rarely locked threads, and I view locking as a last resort.

I generally move threads or posts that seem posted in inappropriate places. If there are blatantly offensive posts in an otherwise-productive thread, I will move the offensive posts to the Backyard or the Jail.
That's my take on it.

That is what I would think would be the most appropiate thing to do... I don't think everyone shares that view.

cantormath
December 4th, 2006, 12:00 AM
I think that free speech should be a core value of a community based around an open source software project such as Ubuntu. It is okay for mods to move topics to more appropriate forums, but never remove or lock topics. Perhaps "the backyard" should be used even more than it is now; a thread should never be locked or deleted, just moved to this designated area.

I second this post for most situations.