PDA

View Full Version : Shuttleworth's invitation to OpenSuSE Developers



loell
November 25th, 2006, 08:09 AM
I somehow agree with this artilce
http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/25/028237,

i think the open invitation from his blog (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81) should be enough

he shouldn't have posted on opensuse mailing list (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03781.html) it makes him look bad,

well, he's human, he makes mistakes too, imho

what do you think?






ps: hope this post does not qualify, to be in the backyard

rbalfour
November 25th, 2006, 08:28 AM
The best thing he and the Ubuntu group can do, is wait and see. Ubuntu is number one. It has grown-up pretty quick in the past year. No need to start yet another Linux war.

JLB
November 25th, 2006, 08:32 AM
What are your thoughts on Mark Shuttleworth's letter to the OpenSuSE developers. ( refer to http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03765.html for his letter. )

I've posted it here in the backyard rather than in the cafe as I expect his invitation will be discussed in a negative light.

aysiu
November 25th, 2006, 08:40 AM
What are your thoughts on Mark Shuttleworth's letter to the OpenSuSE developers. ( refer to http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03765.html for his letter. )

I've posted it here in the backyard rather than in the cafe as I expect his invitation will be discussed in a negative light.
Let's be optimistic. It very well could end up a flamewar, but we'll start in the Cafe. If it gets ugly, we can move it to the Backyard.

JLB
November 25th, 2006, 08:45 AM
Let's be optimistic. It very well could end up a flamewar, but we'll start in the Cafe. If it gets ugly, we can move it to the Backyard.

fair enough

matthew
November 25th, 2006, 08:46 AM
I thought it came across as polite, welcoming, and honest as well as acknowledging that posting an invitation like that on the opensuse boards would be controversial.

x64Jimbo
November 25th, 2006, 09:00 AM
I am disturbed by this. I really want unity amongst the linux community members, and seeing people jabbing at each other here makes me sick. We're all fighting against a common enemy, but we keep throwing sand in each other's faces. We need to all charge the enemy head on with no infighting until our cause is won, then we can hash out our differences.

AlphaMack
November 25th, 2006, 09:16 AM
From the responses to his posting they don't seem very thrilled at his presence on there.

loell
November 25th, 2006, 09:32 AM
From the responses to his posting they don't seem very thrilled at his presence on there.

indeed, they immedietely treat him as an inferior troller,

he alredy knew too well, that most opensuse developers would react negatively on list, what he might not have forsee is what will be the perception of other communities towards him. upon posting on opensuse list a misconception might arise, that he is trying too hard to take advantage of the current issues between (novel/microsoft vs the opensource community) to gain free developers on his side.

this kind of tactic is not part of ubuntu's principles

diepruis
November 25th, 2006, 09:32 AM
I think the post was aimed at short-circuiting Microsoft's plan and fostering unity, instead of what people see it as. Yes, Mark was trying to "steal" the OpenSUSE developers. But, I think his reasons were sound. He simply offered an alternative to those who might feel betrayed by Novell's actions. If this was some sort of underhanded attempt at propaganda I would feel offended, but I think Mr. Shuttleworth acted in an open, honest way.

KiwiNZ
November 25th, 2006, 09:36 AM
I believe this plays into Microsofts hands. Divide and conquer.

diepruis
November 25th, 2006, 09:39 AM
I believe this plays into Microsofts hands. Divide and conquer.

Everyone would agree that OpenSUSE is on somewhat... dodgy ground. How does consolidating developers from a "tainted" distro foster division? Microsoft has already done the dividing work - I think Mr. Shuttleworth was merely trying to offer a new home to the developers that don't want to keep working with public enemy #1.

AlphaMack
November 25th, 2006, 10:08 AM
I believe this plays into Microsofts hands. Divide and conquer.

As much as I don't want to think so, I'm going to have to agree 100%.

JLB
November 25th, 2006, 10:15 AM
I believe this plays into Microsofts hands. Divide and conquer.
I agree. That was my first thought when I read the letter he wrote.

Artificial Intelligence
November 25th, 2006, 10:48 AM
Everyone would agree that OpenSUSE is on somewhat... dodgy ground. How does consolidating developers from a "tainted" distro foster division? Microsoft has already done the dividing work - I think Mr. Shuttleworth was merely trying to offer a new home to the developers that don't want to keep working with public enemy #1.

I agree.
As I see it OpenSuse is doomed and I can't see what the letter on the mailing list should divided anything that are already destroyed. The letter offered that the suse devs are welcome in the community if they are not happy to be part of the Microsoft/Novel pact. What surprise me is the negative responds the letter gets both on the mailing list and here.
The "divide-ness" came when novel sold their soul.

diepruis
November 25th, 2006, 10:53 AM
What surprise me is the negative responds the letter gets both on the mailing list and here.

Me too. The "feel" of the letter was just not offensive enough in my eyes to warrant that kind of response.

eXisor
November 25th, 2006, 12:14 PM
Mark posting on his blog is one thing, but the letter on another distro's site is altogether different. I'm not surprised he got flamed.

At the risk of getting flamed myself, consider the possibility of the following perceptions:

- Linux distros are competitive: they live and die by their popularity. And since Mark is a businessman and a philanthropist, he must expect his letter to be viewed from both perspectives. This may well be seen as a disingenuous attempt to hasten the demise of a competitor.

- Would Mark enjoy his competitors soliciting his staff in this manner? Is this not unfair business practices?

- Developers know where to get jobs and that Ubuntu is a paying alternative. Surely they could/would have come to Ubuntu if they wanted to be paid for what they're giving freely to their communities? To some his letter may well be missing the point and may even be insulting.

- The letter is not Ubuntu since there is clearly something in it for himself. Much as I laud him for his efforts to promote open-source and Linux, it could be Mark is no Mandela.

- Regarding MS, Novel, and now Ubuntu: Businesses can be expected to make business decisions. MS is protecting its' long term interests, as is Novel, and as unfortunately shown by Mark's letter, so is Ubuntu. So what's new?

- In view of the possibility of all of above perceptions, the letter reflects neither sense nor sensibility, sensitivity nor respect.

Kernel Sanders
November 25th, 2006, 01:22 PM
Was that really Mark Shuttleworth that posted that? What an annoying troll. I'm sure he's lost a lot of respect by doing that, its a shame.

RAV TUX
November 25th, 2006, 01:52 PM
1. This article is hugely bias and unfairly negative against Mark Shuttleworth:


Community (http://community.linux.com/search.pl?tid=12) , News (http://community.linux.com/search.pl?tid=96)

Mark Shuttleworth issues divisive invitation to openSUSE developers

Friday November 24, 2006 (04:01 AM GMT)
By: Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier (http://www.dissociatedpress.net/)
Tensions are already high over Novell's patent agreement with Microsoft, but Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth's invitation (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03765.html) to openSUSE developers "concerned about the long term consequences" has kicked the tension up a notch.

Shuttleworth sent an email to the openSUSE developer's list, reading in part:
Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
...I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.
The invitation comes days before Ubuntu Open Week (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek), a week of events for anyone interested in being part of the Ubuntu community. The invitation also coincides with the pending release of openSUSE 10.2, which just received its first release candidate (http://lwn.net/Articles/211002/).
Shuttleworth has not responded to the email query that I sent on Friday afternoon yet, and we will be sure to provide his response if we do receive one.
Novell has clearly angered some of the community (http://enterprise.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/17/180224&tid=41) over its deal with Microsoft. No doubt, many Novell employees who began work with SUSE feel the same way.
However, Shuttleworth's invitation is unlikely to be seen by most openSUSE developers in anything but a negative light. The replies (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03781.html) are almost universally negative, and accuse (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03777.html) Shuttleworth of "doing Microsoft's FUD work for them" and attempting to divide the community.
It hasn't taken long for at least one openSUSE community member to post a satirical response to the Ubuntu developer list (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html), albeit as an anonymous coward under the moniker "Shark Muddleworth," inviting Ubuntu developers to join openSUSE because of Shuttleworth's stance on proprietary drivers (http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/13/2112259&tid=53) in the upcoming Ubuntu Feisty release.
Ubuntu developers are finding the post distasteful as well. Corey Burger writes (http://www.advogato.org/person/Burgundavia/diary.html?start=113), "I feel that Mark's mail (and subsequent blog post) were not called for. Stuff like what Mark did is simply not done. I believe Ubuntu to be the technically better distribution but I absolutely respect the OpenSUSE people and the awesome work that they are doing. There is no need to poach developers and users from each other, especially in this manner."
There's never been any question that openSUSE developers and others are welcome to contribute to Ubuntu. I was considerably impressed by the sense of community at the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Mountain View, California a few weeks ago. Ubuntu has built up considerable goodwill with most of the community, even those who do not use Ubuntu.
Unfortunately, what may be seen as an attempt to capitalize on Novell's ill-advised agreement with Microsoft may well backfire on Shuttleworth and Ubuntu. The distro has already had a reputation for "stealing" Debian developers, fairly or unfairly earned, and now Shuttleworth may be seen as emphasizing an uncomfortable situation to benefit his project.
The primary cause for dissatisfaction with Novell's Microsoft deal is that it is divisive, so why would anyone think that further divisiveness would be well-received or productive? If Ubuntu is going to fix Bug #1 (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1), it will need to do so as part of a concerted effort with other Linux distros and community projects.
http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/25/028237

2. I have to NOT take the easy road here. I have to disagree that Mark is being played the pawn of microsoft. It would be naive to believe that the Linux community is NOT already divided in it's very nature. The division is what keeps Linux unique, I would use the anology of a fruit tree my brother grew in his back yard in Portland, Oregon (ironically near Beaverton, Oregon where Linus lives).

My brother grafted an apple tree to grow many different varities of apples from one tree...while the tree shared the same roots, even the same trunk, the branches were each separate from other branches and these independent grafts produced different varieties of apples.

Linux has developed much the same way. We may divide but we will always share the same roots and trunk, The developers like my brother will always be the caretakers of the same tree....he as developers may graft a new variety of Linux but again we will always share the same roots.

Mark was only sending an invitation to the caretakers(developers). There is no division here that did not already exist by it's very nature.

I think the last paragraph is key here and Mark has stated what many of us have felt. Novell was wrong and Mark was clearly voicing his opinion on this:


That said, I think the position taken by
Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely
disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and
contributors to SuSE, Posting this statement anywhere else other then where he did would have missed his target audience and where he was planning on making a most effective statement to be heard.

He clearly knew the controversy of his post and I honestly believe he is bold enough to speak and be heard, regardless of the backlash he speaks the truth.


I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be
controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of
excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to
undermine that with this post.finally as reflected in the spirit of the title of the post he is upfront about an open invitation, not only to Ubuntu, but reminds developers of other noble options, ie Gentoo & Debian...


[opensuse] Invitation to OpenSUSE developers




I know that many are looking for a new place
to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive
intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other
communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.Did this need to be posted? (The invitation I mean)...did most developers already know their options? probably

People speak of the Unity of Linux, if this exist then there is nothing wrong with Mark speaking his thoughts and giving a friendly invitation.

I know some will disagree.


Please review Mark's letter in full before making up your mind.


[opensuse] Invitation to OpenSUSE developers
From: Mark Shuttleworth <mark@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 18:16:57 +0000
Message-id: <45673719.9020906@xxxxxxxxxx>Novell’s decision to go to great lengths to circumvent the patent
framework clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the
community. If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the
long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of
the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek

We are hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to
join the Ubuntu community - in any capacity, including developers and
package maintainers. If you want to find out how Ubuntu works, how to
contribute or participate, or how to get specific items addressed, there
will be something for you. I’ll also be on IRC on Tuesday 28th to answer
any questions you may have of me specifically, such as Luis’ questions
about our position on software patents at
http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/22/and-ubuntus-patent-stand/

There are a couple of sessions that would be particularly interesting
for folks familiar with OpenSUSE. The Kubuntu team is hosting some
events during the week to look at KDE and Ubuntu and to discuss the
roadmap of their project. There are also a few events being hosted by
the Ubuntu Desktop team’s, which I think should include some discussion
of the ideas that came from the recent Ubuntu Developer Summit in
Mountain View. There are a couple of Packaging 101 and Package
Maintenance sessions too, specifically for developers.

Ubuntu is structured to empower our community to get things done, and to
maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that share a
common vision (even if it’s not 100% of their vision, such as between
the Gnome, KDE and XFCE desktop teams). While we’re always open to new
members, we thought it would be a good idea to identify a dedicated week
where new members would be the focus for our whole project.

If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that cares
about keeping free software widely available and protecting the rights
of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of murky
encumbrances and “undisclosed balance sheet liabilities”, then please do
join us.

I know that posting this message to an OpenSUSE list will be
controversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition of
excellence in the SuSE product and community and have no desire to
undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position taken by
Novell leadership in their contract with Microsoft is hugely
disrespectful of the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and
contributors to SuSE, and I know that many are looking for a new place
to get involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive
intervention. Ubuntu is one option, as are Gentoo, Debian and other
communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.

Markhttp://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03765.html

tageiru
November 25th, 2006, 01:53 PM
Shuttleworth should be careful of accusing others of circumventing the patent framework articulated in the GPL when he himself is guilty of the same offense.

eXisor
November 25th, 2006, 02:01 PM
RAV TUX: I have read these articles and then-some posts and where I live we call this kind of thing unfair business practices.

Whichever way you slice it, Mr. Shuttleworth sees an opportunity, so he did this for himself.

RAV TUX
November 25th, 2006, 02:08 PM
- Regarding MS, Novel, and now Ubuntu: Businesses can be expected to make business decisions. MS is protecting its' long term interests, as is Novel, and as unfortunately shown by Mark's letter, so is Ubuntu. So what's new?

- In view of the possibility of all of above perceptions, the letter reflects neither sense nor sensibility, sensitivity nor respect.

I have reviewed your post and agree some what.....I agree with the fact that nothing is new here in the business practices.


on the last statement I agree also, but keep in mind that Novell has earned the respect they deserve by their very actions....should Mark or any of us not have the Freedom to speak our mind?

chaosgeisterchen
November 25th, 2006, 02:17 PM
Novell has sold its soul to Microsoft? Have I missed something apart from the agreement made to empower interoperability between Windows and Linux? I have always thought of this step in a positive way and if Steve Ballmer thinks he has to spit poison towards the Linux community shortly afterwards he is only damaging hisself and his image, nothing further. This brought a lot of new money into Linux business and I am sure that Novell will invest that to develop their Linux products, also openSuSE, further.

openSuSE is therefore far from dying. So I do not understand the point of Mark Shuttleworths letter apart from the thought that he simply acted to take the opportunity to get new Ubuntu developers directly from Novell and the openSuSE community. I do not think that he will be successful with this type of effort and, in return, damage his image.

It was not necessary to do like Mark did and it will not help Ubuntu in any way I am afraid.

RAV TUX
November 25th, 2006, 02:22 PM
I guess the bottom line is where you stand on GPL.
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

This obviously may not be as important to the end users as it is to the developers.

eXisor
November 25th, 2006, 02:25 PM
RAV TUX: Thank you for your thoughtful consideration.

I find his letter unethical and indefensible.

I think Mark broke the spirit of Ubuntu. And that he should rediscover the meaning of the word.

And he should apologise to the community for the letter. A heartfelt 'it was a mistake, and I'm sorry' would go down extremely well about now.

PS: As a SA'an I would love to give Mark the benefit of the doubt, but this pains me especially since he is usually such a good role-model. Shame on you Mark.

Edit: Speaking ones mind is one thing... solicitation is another. I hoped Ubuntu was beyond MS kind of business practices.

DC@DR
November 25th, 2006, 02:25 PM
I AGREE with RAV TUX, it's not fair to judge Mark's friendly invitation as an divisive one. There's no division at all here. He just simply offers an Ubuntu option (together with other option like Debian, Gentoo..) for openSUSE devs to consider, and it does not harm anything, anyone but ill-advised Novell-M$ patent agreement. And if saying that the invitation divides the Linux community, I disagree, since the Linux community has always been divided and fragmented, IMHO (don't tell me about good-to-have-alternatives and free choices and such, I've heard enough), and I see Mark's move completely normal according to business POV.

JReagan1990
November 25th, 2006, 02:39 PM
I agree with Mr. Shuttleworth's letter. It was welcoming to those who did not like novell for what they did. However, it was just a little "in yo face" being in the actual mailing list, where all of the SuSE devs who at heart will stick w/ SuSE to the end are hanging out.

I also think that no matter how he could have written that letter, it would've been very controversial inside Suse, and the fact that some devs will probably give ubuntu a look could be a good thing.

chaosgeisterchen
November 25th, 2006, 03:23 PM
I guess the bottom line is where you stand on GPL.
http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

This obviously may not be as important to the end users as it is to the developers.


Are you referring to my posting?

I would really like to know in which way Microsoft's agreement with Novell limits the freedom of devlopment within the openSuSE community.

deanlinkous
November 25th, 2006, 04:54 PM
I like this....
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html
(if already posted I apologize)

gnomeuser
November 25th, 2006, 04:59 PM
I like this....
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html
(if already posted I apologize)

That pretty much sums up my feelings concerning Mark and his double standards. Ubuntu now ships proprietary drivers and Novell deals with Microsoft.. what has the world come to?

Of the major desktop distributions only Fedora is left to fall for functionality trap. It's sad really.

bcat
November 25th, 2006, 05:12 PM
I am disturbed by this. I really want unity amongst the linux community members, and seeing people jabbing at each other here makes me sick. We're all fighting against a common enemy, but we keep throwing sand in each other's faces. We need to all charge the enemy head on with no infighting until our cause is won, then we can hash out our differences.

I was going to come in and post something of my own, but that just about sums up my feelings too. Mark may have good intentions, but this whole thing is a very bad way of acting on them.

john_spiral
November 25th, 2006, 05:19 PM
I've got a poll going to see if Mark's post on the opensuse developers list been harmful or beneficial?

please join:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=306691

Polls are fun for everyone.

john_spiral
November 25th, 2006, 05:37 PM
Has Mark's post on the opensuse developers list been harmful or beneficial to the larger Ubuntu community?

see the below thread for more info:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=306473

DC@DR
November 25th, 2006, 05:48 PM
Hey dude, the poll question and answer options are not match, please edit :)

deanlinkous
November 25th, 2006, 05:50 PM
yes to harmful OR beneficial....
well yes it was one of those or neither
:D

bcat
November 25th, 2006, 06:14 PM
Does yes == harmful? I'd like to know before I vote. :)

ButteBlues
November 25th, 2006, 06:20 PM
In all honesty, the OpenSuSE developers need to grow up and realize any sort of underhandedness is not what Mark had in mind, and any they believe exists was simply implied by themselves. They read what they wanted to read - nothing more or less.

weatherman
November 25th, 2006, 06:29 PM
lol :mrgreen:

ZylGadis
November 25th, 2006, 06:33 PM
On the opposite, given Ubuntu's recent stances on binary drivers, I believe any sane person would have cause to doubt Mark Shuttleworth's motives. I myself am almost ready to get rid of Ubuntu and go with Debian, Fedora Core, or perhaps even OpenSUSE.
People change, you know. And power corrupts. Two years are more than enough time to undergo a change, especially if you suddenly find yourself very powerful.

ButteBlues
November 25th, 2006, 06:35 PM
On the opposite, given Ubuntu's recent stances on binary drivers, I believe any sane person would have cause to doubt Mark Shuttleworth's motives. I myself am almost ready to get rid of Ubuntu and go with Debian, Fedora Core, or perhaps even OpenSUSE.
People change, you know. And power corrupts. Two years are more than enough time to undergo a change, especially if you suddenly find yourself very powerful.
So... lemme catch this.

You're leaving Ubuntu over binary drivers, and considering an operating system that has multimedia codecs enabled by default? Isn't that just a little hypocritical?

deanlinkous
November 25th, 2006, 06:46 PM
what multimedia codecs are you talking about?

givré
November 25th, 2006, 06:55 PM
Some fresh news about the binary driver problem.

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022596.html

Colin Watson (the guy behind ubiquity) is actually discussing a way to add an option in the installer to enable binary drier :

At present, the accelerated-x specification calls for it to be the
default. I don't especially like the idea, but it isn't my call. Making
it optional seems like something I can easily do to make things a bit
better for those who don't like binary drivers while not inconveniencing
those who do, and it will potentially make it easier to turn the option
off by default in the future.

Question: should the same checkbox govern binary wireless drivers (e.g.)
too, i.e. turn off the restricted component altogether?
I like the idea, sounds reasonable, don't you think?

racoq
November 25th, 2006, 07:06 PM
I think that the post on Mark's blog, would be enough. He went wrong, and he was flamed as expected.
I do think that he did it on intention (he's an intelligent person), although i can't find a reason why.

However,because of the following post, The opensuse comunity lost all their points, and reasons:

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html

They are no one to talk about the usage, of proprietary software, because they've made a deal with the number one Proprietary software house => Microsoft. Novell is also sponser of the mono project, which in my opinion violates MS intelectual property (and Ubuntu should not use mono in tomboy, and f-spot)

The numbers of ubuntu talks by themselves.

And Yes

Novell, disrespect the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE.

shining
November 25th, 2006, 07:11 PM
That's the best poll ever :)
But it didn't prevent me for voting blank.

tageiru
November 25th, 2006, 07:13 PM
Novell, disrespect the contributions of thousands of GPL programmers and contributors to SuSE.
Then they are on par with the Ubuntu developers who disrespect the wishes of the kernel developers.

At least Novell has decided that non-free drivers are illegal.

Artificial Intelligence
November 25th, 2006, 07:17 PM
On the opposite, given Ubuntu's recent stances on binary drivers, I believe any sane person would have cause to doubt Mark Shuttleworth's motives. I myself am almost ready to get rid of Ubuntu and go with Debian, Fedora Core, or perhaps even OpenSUSE.
People change, you know. And power corrupts. Two years are more than enough time to undergo a change, especially if you suddenly find yourself very powerful.

I think you need to speak for yourself, before calling everybody else insane because they don't agree with you.
If I didn't believe the best in my follow people I would say you're trolling. Go figure...

Dr. C
November 25th, 2006, 07:18 PM
As far as I read the poll. It means that if Mark Shutleworth's comments were harmful or beneficial you vote yes. If the comments have no impact for good or bad you vote no.

aysiu
November 25th, 2006, 07:22 PM
New poll--since the last one was confusingly worded.

racoq
November 25th, 2006, 07:26 PM
Then they are on par with the Ubuntu developers who disrespect the wishes of the kernel developers.

At least Novell has decided that non-free drivers are illegal.

My comment to yours, as i've said before, is that Novell created Mono, although it is free it infringes microsoft proprietary intelectual rights. :P

You don't look like, you're from ubuntu comunity talking like that :P

Novell and suse don't ship only free gpl software :P

Oh and i've almost forget, that XGL was developed in a "closed source" way, (the whole source was only available in the final releases) thats also against open source principles :P

So Novell and their developers, principles, are no example to no one

56phil
November 25th, 2006, 07:31 PM
Mr Shurrleworth's letter was well written and insightful. However, I strongly feel it was unnecessary. I wonder what his motives were.](*,)

jdq997
November 25th, 2006, 07:42 PM
If Shuttlesworth was trying some kind of underhanded tactic he would have found out the names of all of the key people at OpenSUSE, and then he would have contacted them PRIVATELY. He posted this in public. He believes (and I strongly disagree with him) that Novell is now tainted, and is probably an enemy of Linux moving forward. This leads him to believe that posting a friendly invitation to people in the SUSE community is actually the right thing to do.

- Jason

aysiu
November 25th, 2006, 07:45 PM
Here's my take, in case anyone cares.

It was a risk that Mark Shuttleworth took. Before posting he probably second- and third-guessed himself about it. Is it too forward? Should I do it? Obviously, he ended up doing it, and the developers on OpenSuSE reacted to it negatively. We know this in 20/20 hindsight.

On the one hand, it is a bit forward--borderline obnoxious--to post on a mailing list for OpenSuSE an invitation to work somewhere else, but when I read the parody of it (OpenSuSE people posting a similarly worded invitation on the Ubuntu mailing list), it didn't seem that insulting, actually.

It may have turned off the OpenSuSE developers, but I'm not sure in the long run whether it will be beneficial or harmful to Ubuntu and/or Linux.

Divide and conquer (from a Microsoft standpoint) can work if you actually conquer, but what if you don't conquer? What if Ubuntu emerges as the prominent consumer/education Linux and Red Hat stays as the prominent enterprise/corporate/server Linux?

I'm not saying we should deliberately antagonize other distros or their developers, but the unintended side effect may result in good in some way.

People are always talking about how Linux should be "unified" or "standardized." The only way that's likely to happen is one distro breaking through as more popular or supported than the rest. Once that happens, that will be the standard. If it's Ubuntu, package management will be apt. RPM will go out the window.

Only time will tell.

Frankly, at this point, Ubuntu is so prominent in the tech headlines these days that anything Mark Shuttleworth does can be alternately viewed as positive or negative in its impact. He's like a celebrity.

racoq
November 25th, 2006, 07:50 PM
Here's my take, in case anyone cares.

If it's Ubuntu, package management will be apt. RPM will go out the window.

Only time will tell.



I hope it tells that is apt / deb format. I really hate rpm dependency's.

Long praise Ubuntu and Debian

SlCKB0Y
November 25th, 2006, 07:55 PM
That pretty much sums up my feelings concerning Mark and his double standards. Ubuntu now ships proprietary drivers and Novell deals with Microsoft.. what has the world come to?

How can ubuntu win then by your logic? They dont ship any closed software or drivers and people whine and complain that they are too hard to install for noobs.

Ubuntu includes this stuff and they get slammed by GPL zealots.

I do not believe his move is unethical. Unethical would be if he had approached the opensuse people on an individual basis and without the knowledge of the wider community. As it is, he made zero attempt to hide his approach and I do not feel he crossed any moral line here.

As far as I can tell, the opensuse people are rats who should leave their sinking ship before it gets swallowed up.

Artificial Intelligence
November 25th, 2006, 08:04 PM
How can ubuntu win then by your logic? They dont ship any closed software or drivers and people whine and complain that they are too hard to install for noobs.

Ubuntu includes this stuff and they get slammed by GPL zealots.

I do not believe his move is unethical. Unethical would be if he had approached the opensuse people on an individual basis and without the knowledge of the wider community. As it is, he made zero attempt to hide his approach and I do not feel he crossed any moral line here.

As far as I can tell, the opensuse people are rats who should leave their sinking ship before it gets swallowed up.

Exactly! If he did contact every open Suse devs in a dark alley in a trench-coat and propose a switch I would get suspicious.

darkhatter
November 25th, 2006, 08:05 PM
@$*#$)#@$#$&)#*$)#@$&#)*$#)@$*#)@$*#@)$*# <-- (insert swear words)

the war begins

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 08:06 PM
I somehow agree with this artilce
http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/25/028237,
i think the open invitation from his blog (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81) should be enough
he shouldn't have posted on opensuse mailing list (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03781.html) it makes him look bad,
well, he's human, he makes mistakes too, imho
what do you think?
ps: hope this post does not qualify, to be in the backyard

Shuttleworth has down nothing wrong......leave the man alone.

darkhatter
November 25th, 2006, 08:14 PM
Shuttleworth has down nothing wrong......leave the man alone.

:confused: what if a OpenSuse developer did the same?

aysiu
November 25th, 2006, 08:17 PM
:confused: what if a OpenSuse developer did the same?
You mean like this (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html)?
Invitation to ubuntu developers
Shark Muddleworth shark.muddleworth at googlemail.com
Fri Nov 24 23:13:40 GMT 2006

* Previous message: Harddisk Encryption
* Next message: Invitation to ubuntu developers
* Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]

Canonical's recent decision to include proprietary GPL violating
drivers in the default install, circumventing the copyright framework
clearly articulated in the GPL has sent shockwaves through the
community. If you are an ubuntu developer who is concerned about the
long term consequences of this fact, you may be interested in opensuse

We would be happy to help people who want to join the openSUSE
community - in any capacity, including developers and package
maintainers. If you want to find out how openSUSE works you can
communicate with the community (see
http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate). A special introductory session is
being organised for mid December, watch this space.

openSUSE is structured to empower our community to get things done,
and to maximise the opportunity for collaboration between teams that
share a common vision. Such tools as the openSUSE build service
(http://build.opensuse.org/) help empower our community.

If you have an interest in being part of a vibrant community that
cares about keeping free software widely available and protecting the
rights of people to get it free of charge, free to modify, free of GPL
violations, and focussing on creating the most usable Free software
desktop, then please do join us.

I know that posting this message to an ubuntu list will be
trolling^WControversial. I'm greatly respectful of the long tradition
of excellence in the Ubuntu product and community and have no desire
to undermine that with this post. That said, I think the position
taken by Ubuntu leadership in their inclusion of non-gpled kernel
modules linked to the GPLed kernel is disrespectful of the
contributions of thousands of GPL kernel programmers and contributors
to Ubuntu, and I know that many are looking for a new place to get
involved that is not subject to the same arbitrary executive
intervention. openSUSE is one option, as are Fedora, gnewsense other
communities. Please accept this mail in that spirit.

Some openSUSE members

_

Disclaimer:

Response to http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03765.html,
intended to highlight the inappropriateness of the original mail.
Although based on facts, the above content is intended satirical and
not to attack ubuntu or offend. I didn't find it that offensive, actually.

RAV TUX
November 25th, 2006, 08:17 PM
I AGREE with RAV TUX, it's not fair to judge Mark's friendly invitation as an divisive one. There's no division at all here. He just simply offers an Ubuntu option (together with other option like Debian, Gentoo..) for openSUSE devs to consider, and it does not harm anything, anyone but ill-advised Novell-M$ patent agreement. And if saying that the invitation divides the Linux community, I disagree, since the Linux community has always been divided and fragmented, IMHO (don't tell me about good-to-have-alternatives and free choices and such, I've heard enough), and I see Mark's move completely normal according to business POV.


In all honesty, the OpenSuSE developers need to grow up and realize any sort of underhandedness is not what Mark had in mind, and any they believe exists was simply implied by themselves. They read what they wanted to read - nothing more or less.

In all honesty the response is ridiculous like most things concerning Linux,

Linux users like to make a mountain out of a mole hill....I find the Drama-Queen syndrome against Mark Shuttleworth more embarassing then anything Mark did. I am sure the world in general especially Apple and Microsoft are having a great laugh at the Linux world now...

Lighten up people and stop being ridiculous....stop going overboard,,,,it's not like Mark is killing little puppies or something.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 08:19 PM
:confused: what if a OpenSuse developer did the same?

Then we get new developers.....The open suse people do not need to come over. Shuttleworth is just letting them know they are welcome, Like they should be in every distribution. The linux community should all send them letters.

The real party to be blamed is microsoft. They are trying to start a war in our community. We cannot afford this war. We need to stick together.

I support novell, suse and and any other OS with NIX at the end. Its all the same linux people.

This is what I think Microsoft's Agended is leading besides a war with Open Source.
(http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=305928)

RAV TUX
November 25th, 2006, 08:25 PM
How can ubuntu win then by your logic? They dont ship any closed software or drivers and people whine and complain that they are too hard to install for noobs.

Ubuntu includes this stuff and they get slammed by GPL zealots.

I do not believe his move is unethical. Unethical would be if he had approached the opensuse people on an individual basis and without the knowledge of the wider community. As it is, he made zero attempt to hide his approach and I do not feel he crossed any moral line here.

As far as I can tell, the opensuse people are rats who should leave their sinking ship before it gets swallowed up.


If Shuttlesworth was trying some kind of underhanded tactic he would have found out the names of all of the key people at OpenSUSE, and then he would have contacted them PRIVATELY. He posted this in public. He believes (and I strongly disagree with him) that Novell is now tainted, and is probably an enemy of Linux moving forward. This leads him to believe that posting a friendly invitation to people in the SUSE community is actually the right thing to do.

- Jason


Exactly! If he did contact every open Suse devs in a dark alley in a trench-coat and propose a switch I would get suspicious.

Good points here.

I didn't vote in the poll because the most logical choice was left off:

#5 people are going overboard in response to this issue (as per usual)

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 08:26 PM
Good points here.

I didn't vote in the poll because the most logical choice was left off:

#5 people are going overboard in response to this issue (as per usual)

ditto

drphilngood
November 25th, 2006, 08:34 PM
Shuttleworth has down nothing wrong......leave the man alone.
++
Trying to recruit good employees is a common busisness practice. Therefore, I would have felt more flattered than disgruntled if I were a Suse developer but that´s their prerogative.
Furthermore, someone has to pay Ubuntu´s bills and since that man is Shuttleworth, we should all just cut him some slack.

aysiu
November 25th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Good points here.

I didn't vote in the poll because the most logical choice was left off:

#5 people are going overboard in response to this issue (as per usual)
Which is really option #4--I don't care.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 08:42 PM
The best thing he and the Ubuntu group can do, is wait and see. Ubuntu is number one. It has grown-up pretty quick in the past year. No need to start yet another Linux war.


I understand your interpretation, but you are sorta putting words in the mans mouth.
What he said was:

"If you are an OpenSUSE developer who is concerned about the long term consequences of this pact, you may be interested in some of the events happening next week as part of the Ubuntu Open Week."

"If you are concerned." I will tell you right now, I would be a little. In business, it is considered stupid not to think ahead in case the worst happens.
Shuttleworth is saying......well, if it goes south, we are always looking for good people.
He is not say, "screw suse, come work for us....". If he was, he would call them and not post a Blog about it on the web.....IMO.

RAV TUX
November 25th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Which is really option #4--I don't care.

"I don't care" doesn't match.

I care but believe the response is going overboard.

aysiu
November 25th, 2006, 08:50 PM
"I don't care" doesn't match.

I care but believe the response is going overboard.
Point taken.

BWF89
November 25th, 2006, 10:13 PM
I really don't care.

If anything this could be a positive thing. Tension between Ubuntu and OpenSuSE developers could lead to each side being more motivated to create a superior product and end up being beneficial to both. If there wasn't tension between the US and USSR during the space race to outdo the other do you think think either side would have done as good as we did? A little competition never hurt anyone.

loell
November 25th, 2006, 10:15 PM
wow, i just woke up and now there's a poll ;)

when i first posted, i thought it was a mistake on the part of mark , deliberately posting to opensuse list with an open invitation as though he's a long time subscriber to the list. well, i did some rethinking.

but its just too dificult to tell, though i'm still puzzled on why he did it.

darkhatter
November 25th, 2006, 10:29 PM
I don't find the Novell Microsoft deal that dirty. Novell just wanted to make their product work better in windows. Microsoft came up with the patients and Microsoft started the whole I.P. fud thing. Novell and Microsoft are already fighting. I don't think Shuttleworth's invitation was a evil steal developers away move, but it wasn't the wisest move.

The Soundophiliac
November 25th, 2006, 10:33 PM
Some of the openSuse devs seemed rather childishly proud of their distro. They consider MS's post as propaganda from an enemy, not a friendly gesture towards those who don't like the Novell/Microsoft deal. The kind of distro-nationalism (distroism(?)) some of these people have leads very easily to rants and flaming.

People get blind on the internet and communicating by text. That's why flamewars happen so often. Come to think of it, the kind of comments there were on the Suse mailing-list would be quite amusing if they occurred in face-to-face situations.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:34 PM
Some of the openSuse devs seemed rather childishly proud of their distro. They consider MS's post as propaganda from an enemy, not a friendly gesture towards those who don't like the Novell/Microsoft deal. The kind of distro-nationalism (distroism(?)) some of these people have leads very easily to rants and flaming.

People get blind. Come to think of it, the kind of comments there were on the Suse mailing-list would be quite amusing if they occurred in face-to-face situations.

I believe MS's post was propaganda....

darkhatter
November 25th, 2006, 10:36 PM
Some of the openSuse devs seemed rather childishly proud of their distro. They consider MS's post as propaganda from an enemy, not a friendly gesture towards those who don't like the Novell/Microsoft deal. The kind of distro-nationalism (distroism(?)) some of these people have leads very easily to rants and flaming.

People get blind. Come to think of it, the kind of comments there were on the Suse mailing-list would be quite amusing if they occurred in face-to-face situations.

Shuttleworth's post looks just like propaganda...maybe you shouldn't practice "distro-nationalism" yourself. I'm done now I can smell the flame war

The Soundophiliac
November 25th, 2006, 10:39 PM
Shuttleworth's post looks just like propaganda...maybe you shouldn't practice "distro-nationalism" yourself. I'm done now I can smell the flame war

I guess you're right. Maybe it is propaganda. I'm not saying it isn't. Anyway, I still think that the response the post got on the Suse mailing-list was partly very childish.

cantormath
November 25th, 2006, 10:46 PM
Shuttleworth's post looks just like propaganda...maybe you shouldn't practice "distro-nationalism" yourself. I'm done now I can smell the flame war

It really seems like alot of people did not actually read what Shuttleworth said.

He was not doing anything evil or vendictive.

smoker
November 25th, 2006, 11:09 PM
It really seems like alot of people did not actually read what Shuttleworth said.

He was not doing anything evil or vendictive.

totally agree, i've no problem with it.

sanderella
November 25th, 2006, 11:18 PM
I think the post was aimed at short-circuiting Microsoft's plan and fostering unity, instead of what people see it as. Yes, Mark was trying to "steal" the OpenSUSE developers. But, I think his reasons were sound. He simply offered an alternative to those who might feel betrayed by Novell's actions. If this was some sort of underhanded attempt at propaganda I would feel offended, but I think Mr. Shuttleworth acted in an open, honest way.

I agree with this, nothing offensive, trying to hold the community together.

Johnsie
November 25th, 2006, 11:34 PM
I think a lot of people are jealous of the success of Ubuntu and will attempt to spin anything to make Mark look bad. Novell sold it's soul to the devil and Mark simply offered GPL developers a safe haven, free from Microsoft interference. IMO that was a very courageous and generous thing to do. If anything Mark was standing op for Freeware and Open Source..... Unfortunately there's a lot of jealous trolls out there who didn't see it that way. He didn't only invite them to join Ubuntu, he mentioned other distros too... ones that truly support GPL and aren't influenced by Microsoft.

I also would like to see more Ubuntu developers and I don't give a rats where they come from as long as they do a good job.

Long live free software and down with Microsoft!

tageiru
November 25th, 2006, 11:55 PM
My comment to yours, as i've said before, is that Novell created Mono, although it is free it infringes microsoft proprietary intelectual rights. :P

Mono is based on ECMA standards, which are open for anyone to implement. Miguel and the rest of the Mono team did a fine job and they have given us a great technological platform. I think most non-trivial programs infringe on some "intellectual property", and if we wanted full legal protection we should give up creating software.

Miguel has stated many times that they are prepared to work around any legal issues.


You don't look like, you're from ubuntu comunity talking like that :P

Well I have been using Ubuntu since long before the first version, Warty, was released, when Ubuntu was known by only a few Debian people. Does that qualify me as a member of the Ubuntu community? :)


Novell and suse don't ship only free gpl software :P

No but distributing non-free software along with the distribution and using non-free kernel drivers by default are two very different things. Many of the kernel developers have stated that non-free drivers are illegal because they are considered as derivative works and thus should be covered by the GPL.


Oh and i've almost forget, that XGL was developed in a "closed source" way, (the whole source was only available in the final releases) thats also against open source principles :P

I don't think there exist any standardized "open source principles". Open/free software is defined by licenses.


So Novell and their developers, principles, are no example to no one

Novell and their developers have given us much in terms of free software development. They employ several kernel developers for example.

siimo
November 26th, 2006, 12:06 AM
I rather liked the response by Shark Muddleworth :mrgreen:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html

Onyros
November 26th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Wow... I hope Mark clears this one out. This kind of controversy can NEVER, EVER contribute to the whole Linux "cause".

How does this help anything towards eliminating bug #1?

This may just be the nail in my Ubuntu's coffin. I'm getting sick and tired of these kinds of disputes in the Linux community.

First, the controversy between Debian and the Mozilla Foundation; the Novell-MS agreement... Now Mark's completely tactless approach to openSUSE developers. Talk about a shot in the foot.

Damn. I'm truly disappointed.

luca.b
November 26th, 2006, 12:25 AM
It is bad, IMO, because it indirectly fuels upon the raving fanatism that rose up with the Novell-MS deal (note, I don't like the deal, but I didn't like the answers either).

xb12s
November 26th, 2006, 12:34 AM
Mark Shuttleworth's initials = MS

MicroSoft's initials = MS

Coincidence?

I think NOT!

You be the judge!

darkhatter
November 26th, 2006, 01:09 AM
Mark Shuttleworth's initials = MS

MicroSoft's initials = MS

Coincidence?

I think NOT!

You be the judge!

rofl :mrgreen:

loell
November 26th, 2006, 01:11 AM
Mark Shuttleworth's initials = MS

MicroSoft's initials = MS

Coincidence?

I think NOT!

You be the judge!

now this is a troll, pls stay with in the current argument

Johnsie
November 26th, 2006, 01:31 AM
Maybe Microsoft knew that doing this would turn Linux communities against each other and start a war just before Vista was released. Really the Linux community as a whole needs to be getting ready to fight a massive war against Vista, not wasting time with petty infighting between distros.

It's like Lord of the Rings, building up for a battle and we need to have our armies working together and ready before Microsoft launches the real attack on us (Vista). We can't win on our own. Dont be distracted by this move, keep your eye on the ball and get ready for an all out war against Vista!

pay
November 26th, 2006, 01:34 AM
I'm sure that the Novell programers have a mind of their own and if they wanted to turn to Ubuntu then they would have without an invitation. Anyway who cares what Linux distro you use aslong as it suites your needs and it is Microsoft free;)

FyreBrand
November 26th, 2006, 01:50 AM
I somehow agree with this artilce
http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/25/028237,

i think the open invitation from his blog (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/81) should be enough

he shouldn't have posted on opensuse mailing list (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03781.html) it makes him look bad,

well, he's human, he makes mistakes too, imho

what do you think?


ps: hope this post does not qualify, to be in the backyardI think Mark has every right to post where he wants. Furthermore as an individual spearheading a distribution it seems even more appropriate.

What I think is inappropriate is this type of personal moral inspection. I think you are stepping over a line in analyzing his behavior or commenting on what he should or shouldn't do. If it's really out of line or laughable then the OpenSUSE developers will ignore him. If not, and they consider him a peer (which he is), then they will consider the invitation and make a decision from there.

Seriously as end users we hate to be micro-managed in our use of Linux. Why should we be micro-managing the actions and attitudes of developers? I really think there is a fine line between constructive critical feedback and projective moralization. Just because someone has beliefs or makes choices a little different from our own doesn't mean they're wrong. It just means they are different.

loell
November 26th, 2006, 02:06 AM
I think Mark has every right to post where he wants. Furthermore as an individual spearheading a distribution it seems even more appropriate.

What I think is inappropriate is this type of personal moral inspection. I think you are stepping over a line in analyzing his behavior or commenting on what he should or shouldn't do. If it's really out of line or laughable then the OpenSUSE developers will ignore him. If not, and they consider him a peer (which he is), then they will consider the invitation and make a decision from there.

Seriously as end users we hate to be micro-managed in our use of Linux. Why should we be micro-managing the actions and attitudes of developers? I really think there is a fine line between constructive critical feedback and projective moralization. Just because someone has beliefs or makes choices a little different from our own doesn't mean they're wrong. It just means they are different.

perhaps you should read the whole thread? don't just read the first post before commenting.

Johnsie
November 26th, 2006, 02:09 AM
This whole argument between Linux distros is just what MS wants. Civil war in the Linux camp just before vista is released.

jdq997
November 26th, 2006, 02:16 AM
"Mark Shuttleworth's initials = MS

MicroSoft's initials = MS

Coincidence?

I think NOT!

You be the judge!
Reply With Quote"

You are right! It is all a conspiracy. Ubuntu is really just a Microsoft plot! Mark Shuttlesworth is a secret cyborg bad guy which was built in Bill Gates' secret evil robotic plant which will eventually spawn millions of Mark Shuttlesworth robots, and then enslave humanity in a matrix like atmosphere which will monopolize our lives. All of this will be apparent in a few years when Vista +1 is released. The next version of Windows will be known as Windows ME2. Windows Matrix Edition 2.0.

On second thought, no there is no connection between MS and MS :)

- Jason

ComplexNumber
November 26th, 2006, 02:17 AM
apparently, the opensuse devs aren`t too happy
http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/25/028237&from=rss

FyreBrand
November 26th, 2006, 02:22 AM
perhaps you should read the whole thread? don't just read the first post before commenting.Perhaps I was just replying to the OP.

darkhatter
November 26th, 2006, 02:56 AM
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html

Suse fights back, I'm still laughing but it looks very child-ish

lotusleaf
November 26th, 2006, 05:15 AM
Did Microsoft hold secret talks with Novell prior to any public announcement to any agreement?

If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.

Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:

"Corel Sells Out To Microsoft"
http://www.forbes.com/2000/10/03/1003corel.html

"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" @ CNN 10/16/2000
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/16/corel.linux.on.ms.idg/index.html

"Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true

"Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true)

"Microsoft Litigation" List - Educate yourself
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653

I ask you: Who do YOU trust?

Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?

For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:

"Gates on Vista, Linux and more" (http://news.com.com/Gates+on+Vista%2C+Linux+and+more+-+page+3/2008-1012_3-6136350-3.html?tag=st.num)

History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes. :) Google for yourself and see, there are a lot of juicy articles out there on this.

K.Mandla
November 26th, 2006, 05:17 AM
I thought Mark's post was exceedingly clever.

apoclypse
November 26th, 2006, 05:29 AM
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-November/022578.html

Suse fights back, I'm still laughing but it looks very child-ish

Especially considering any help the migrating devs do to upensuse will go into the commercial version of suse where the issues brought up by the opensuse developers are the same. The same can be said of any distro, but opensuse is strictly tied to novell whether they like it or not. in-order to break away if they wantd they wouldhave to remove all suse branding. So they can be childish all they want, yes i agree that Mark should have maybe waited a while and let them migrate themselves over if they chose, but his blatant offer seems underhanded somehow. I do wish that they wouldn't include the drivers, its creating a splintering of a distro that is doing to well to be hindered now. I don't see why the way it works now is an issue. Downloading the drivers as needed as is the current method is the best solution. If you were to use windows xp straight out of the box, non-oem, this is exactly what you would have to do. So why do we have to have such a huge debate over something thats non-trivial to install using the current method? Rigth now I'm just praying that canonical and Mark don't betray my trust in ubuntu.

loell
November 26th, 2006, 05:40 AM
Perhaps I was just replying to the OP.

it would not make sense replying to the original post
when i've change my view of the current issue (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=306736&page=7)
again, it would be advisable to read the whole thread, to know the flow of the topic, before doing a comment

RAV TUX
November 26th, 2006, 06:04 AM
Did Microsoft hold secret talks with Novell prior to any public announcement to any agreement?

If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.

Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:

"Corel Sells Out To Microsoft"
http://www.forbes.com/2000/10/03/1003corel.html

"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" @ CNN 10/16/2000
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/16/corel.linux.on.ms.idg/index.html

"Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true

"Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true)

"Microsoft Litigation" List - Educate yourself
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653

I ask you: Who do YOU trust?

Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?

For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:

"Gates on Vista, Linux and more" (http://news.com.com/Gates+on+Vista%2C+Linux+and+more+-+page+3/2008-1012_3-6136350-3.html?tag=st.num)

History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes. :) Google for yourself and see, there are a lot of juicy articles out there on this.

Interesting post, indeed.

Artificial Intelligence
November 26th, 2006, 06:11 AM
Did Microsoft hold secret talks with Novell prior to any public announcement to any agreement?

If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.

Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:

"Corel Sells Out To Microsoft"
http://www.forbes.com/2000/10/03/1003corel.html

"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" @ CNN 10/16/2000
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/16/corel.linux.on.ms.idg/index.html

"Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true

"Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true)

"Microsoft Litigation" List - Educate yourself
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653

I ask you: Who do YOU trust?

Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?

For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:

"Gates on Vista, Linux and more" (http://news.com.com/Gates+on+Vista%2C+Linux+and+more+-+page+3/2008-1012_3-6136350-3.html?tag=st.num)

History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes. :) Google for yourself and see, there are a lot of juicy articles out there on this.

I can sign that. I was a happy Corel Linux 'till Microsoft destroyed it.

Christmas
November 26th, 2006, 06:18 AM
The answers in the mailing list were quite unfriendly so I don't know what to think, if it's a good move or a bad one (I guess it does matter so I can't say "I don't care"). However, despite the reactions of the Novell community, I'd agree with such actions from Mark Shuttleworth, after all we all use Ubuntu and are committed to it, not other distribution, so we should encourage Mark in his thoughts.

RAV TUX
November 26th, 2006, 06:21 AM
I can sign that. I was a happy Corel Linux 'till Microsoft destroyed it.
Lets hope Microsoft never gets their hands on Ubuntu...

RAV TUX
November 26th, 2006, 06:21 AM
The answers in the mailing list were quite unfriendly so I don't know what to think, if it's a good move or a bad one (I guess it does matter so I can't say "I don't care"). However, despite the reactions of the Novell community, I'd agree with such actions from Mark Shuttleworth, after all we all use Ubuntu and are committed to it, not other distribution, so we should encourage Mark in his thoughts.
Exactely.

AlphaMack
November 26th, 2006, 06:45 AM
Lets hope Microsoft never gets their hands on Ubuntu...

:-#

newbie2
November 26th, 2006, 07:15 AM
1. This article is hugely bias and unfairly negative against Mark Shuttleworth:
http://community.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/25/028237

2. I have to NOT take the easy road here. I have to disagree that Mark is being played the pawn of microsoft. It would be naive to believe that the Linux community is NOT already divided in it's very nature. The division is what keeps Linux unique, I would use the anology of a fruit tree my brother grew in his back yard in Portland, Oregon (ironically near Beaverton, Oregon where Linus lives).

My brother grafted an apple tree to grow many different varities of apples from one tree...while the tree shared the same roots, even the same trunk, the branches were each separate from other branches and these independent grafts produced different varieties of apples.

Linux has developed much the same way. We may divide but we will always share the same roots and trunk, The developers like my brother will always be the caretakers of the same tree....he as developers may graft a new variety of Linux but again we will always share the same roots.

Mark was only sending an invitation to the caretakers(developers). There is no division here that did not already exist by it's very nature.

I think the last paragraph is key here and Mark has stated what many of us have felt. Novell was wrong and Mark was clearly voicing his opinion on this:

Posting this statement anywhere else other then where he did would have missed his target audience and where he was planning on making a most effective statement to be heard.

He clearly knew the controversy of his post and I honestly believe he is bold enough to speak and be heard, regardless of the backlash he speaks the truth.
finally as reflected in the spirit of the title of the post he is upfront about an open invitation, not only to Ubuntu, but reminds developers of other noble options, ie Gentoo & Debian...




Did this need to be posted? (The invitation I mean)...did most developers already know their options? probably

People speak of the Unity of Linux, if this exist then there is nothing wrong with Mark speaking his thoughts and giving a friendly invitation.

I know some will disagree.


Please review Mark's letter in full before making up your mind.
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2006-11/msg03765.html

i fully agree with that...

lotusleaf
November 26th, 2006, 08:05 AM
To complete my first post in this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1807725&postcount=96), here are some links I gathered on the issue of Corel/Microsoft. I suggest everyone keep the history of Corel/Microsoft in mind in the months and years that follow, especially as far as the Novell/Microsoft events are concerned. This is, by no means, a complete list of Corel/Microsoft related links, but it's some interesting ones:

"Corel brews new desktop Linux"
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-232997.html

"Corel's Linux beta to debut by August"
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-224462.html

"Microsoft Floats Ailing Corel - Company Business and Marketing"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FOX/is_18_5/ai_67883880

"Corel's Linux/Wine plans meet mixed response"
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,2070972,00.htm

"Is Corel's Linux business for sale?"
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-525751.html

"Corel Linux is easy to install and has many improvements"
http://aroundcny.com/technofile/texts/tec032600.html

"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal"
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/16/corel.linux.on.ms.idg/index.html

"Interview with Mike Cowpland, Corel Corporation"
http://linuxgazette.net/issue50/advani.html

"Corel Interview Part II: Reaction in the Linux community"
http://resources.zdnet.co.uk/articles/features/0,1000002000,2070930,00.htm

"Comdex '99: Corel puts a penguin the desktop"
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,2075215,00.htm

"Corel to sell off Linux distribution"
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/01/23/1844204

"Corel's Rallying Cry: Linux, Linux Everywhere! - Corel Linux OS - Product Information"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BRZ/is_12_19/ai_58926454

"Corel Aims To Cash In On Demand For Client-Side Linux"
http://www.crn.com/sections/breakingnews/dailyarchives.jhtml;jsessionid=R2IJBWGU3FXQWQSNDLR SKH0CJUNN2JVN?_requestid=359272

"Coming Soon: Microsoft Office for Linux?"
http://www.linux-mag.com/content/view/462/

"Xandros readies Corel Linux distribution"
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2002/0125xandros.html

"Microsoft Floats Ailing Corel"
http://entmag.com/archives/article.asp?EditorialsID=3514

"Interview with Mike Cowpland, Corel CEO"
http://www.freeos.com/articles/2340/

"Corel - Linux Deluxe Edition Version 2 review"
http://www.itreviews.co.uk/software/s94a.htm

"Corel and Inprise band together in support of Linux"
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/30/corel.inprise.idg/index.html

"That's all folks: Corel leaves Open Source behind"
http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=02/02/25/1449229

"Corel's Linux/Wine plans meet mixed response"
http://www.zdnet.co.uk/misc/print/0,1000000169,2070972-39001058c,00.htm

" Corel Linux - Not Quite Dead Yet"
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/02/27/152228

"Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal"
http://open.itworld.com/4917/LWD001012corel/page_1.html

"ServerWatch: Corel Brings Linux to the Desktop"
http://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/1999111605804PS

"SECOND UPDATE: Microsoft Parts Ways with Corel?"
http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2001-02-22-009-20-NW-CL-MS

"Corel WordPerfect Suite 2000 and CorelDraw 9 Release Press Conference"
http://linuxgazette.net/issue40/staff.html

"Corel Linux for Dummies (with CD-ROM) (Paperback) "
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0764506676/ref=cap_pdp_dp_0/102-6158738-3031347

"Linux and business

We got a copy of WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux"
http://lwn.net/2000/0413/commerce.php3

"DistributionWatch Review: Corel Linux
Corel File Manager"
http://linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reviews/1395/8/

".comment: Microsoft and Corel--Not Good News
A Linux Strategy?"
http://linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/2409/2/

"MS + Corel = Office for Linux? In your dreams…"
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/10/14/ms_corel_office_for_linux/

nyinge
November 26th, 2006, 10:05 AM
I find the sjvn's blog (http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7246655736.html) on this issue a bit too much in criticizing Shuttleworth's letter.

loell
November 26th, 2006, 10:59 AM
This (http://silentcoder.co.za/silentcoder/component/option,com_jd-wp/Itemid,59/p,64/) is pretty interesting , could this be one the starting point, that somehow mark is right?

SlCKB0Y
November 26th, 2006, 11:06 AM
This is going to become a major flamewar if it wasnt already.
:D

AlphaMack
November 26th, 2006, 11:10 AM
Oh it has been. :D

Malta paul
November 26th, 2006, 11:14 AM
I have enjoyed reading all above the posts, but why do peaple get so hot under the collar?

1) OpenSUSE is a great distro with great credit to the developers. Any M$ agreement is their problem now.

2) Ubuntu is another great distro with great developers under the leadership of Mark Shuttleworth and it also has a fantastic community.

Fee speech and Choice is a most important thing in linux.

My choice is Ubuntu:)

Choad
November 26th, 2006, 12:59 PM
i dont know if this has been linked before, but its (finally) been posted to slashdot and to my surprise it seems fairly unanimously pro ubuntu.

http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/06/11/26/0152225.shtml

darkhatter
November 26th, 2006, 05:36 PM
2 murders argue over who is the cleaner of the 2. I don't think Shuttleworth was in a position to say that.

K.Mandla
November 26th, 2006, 06:02 PM
Did Microsoft hold secret talks with Novell prior to any public announcement to any agreement?

If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.

I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.

Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:

"Corel Sells Out To Microsoft"
http://www.forbes.com/2000/10/03/1003corel.html

"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" @ CNN 10/16/2000
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/16/corel.linux.on.ms.idg/index.html

"Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true

"Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A5576-2001Feb14&notFound=true)

"Microsoft Litigation" List - Educate yourself
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=2005010107100653

I ask you: Who do YOU trust?

Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?

For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:

"Gates on Vista, Linux and more" (http://news.com.com/Gates+on+Vista%2C+Linux+and+more+-+page+3/2008-1012_3-6136350-3.html?tag=st.num)

History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes. :) Google for yourself and see, there are a lot of juicy articles out there on this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace%2C_extend%2C_and_exterminate

If I were at all in the OpenSuSE camp I would be feeling quite betrayed right now.

Burgresso
November 26th, 2006, 06:10 PM
I think it's ironic that OpenSuse devs are accusing Mark Shuttleworth of spreading MS's FUD over linux - shouldn't they be pointing their finger at Novell?

Senori
November 26th, 2006, 06:25 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace%2C_extend%2C_and_exterminate

If I were at all in the OpenSuSE camp I would be feeling quite betrayed right now.
Paranoia.

Toontwnca
November 26th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Anyone who was thinking of using Linux, and who no longer wants to
use windows for one reason or another, and was considering OpenSuSe
may now switch to Ubuntu. Who knows perhaps some current users of OpenSuSe may even switch to Ubuntu.
I did try OpenSuSe at one time; didn't like it much; but now that MS has
there greasy mitts in there I won't be going back.

As far as what Mark S did; Im ok with that.
He was providing options for anyone who
wanted a change.

jbtito03
November 26th, 2006, 06:53 PM
Oi


Ubuntu, SuSE, Fedora, Debian, Gentoo, Slackware, Minix or any other user/developer...


In my opinion, you have more in common than u might think - u spread the word about freedom in software, you go around carrying GNU philosophy, u develope the new era of code, u are now bocimming the trend-setter, u help the 3rd world coutries to evolve faster than they could ever with properitarian software/hardware?!...

... an much much more - and the most important thing to me - U MAKE ME HAPPY WITH USING GNU/LINUX of any distribution!!!!!!!!

So stop acting childishly, be more like Linus - think 5 times before reacting.

On the Microsoft/Novell thingy - a lot has been sead, and a lot of harsh words used like enemy, terrorist, etc.

I thnik that if someone wants to make properitarian software with closed code it is his decision and it is ours if we want to use it or if we want to work for him. That sead, it is the same for open source.

The thing with Novell is that it is doing something in between - that is the problem, which makes novell (thru history) a superb trojan horse for the linux community. It hasnt anything to do with open suse in that way, cause openSuSE will be protected by GPL. It is more a question of integrity and "where do i stand?".

My respect goes to all you who make me happy and let me spread the word about how happy i am!


About the posting on the SuSE mailing list - i think that as open source is open Marks posting was open and that h just told them if you are not happy go and change your working enviroment. As u all have seen - if he had been silent and would make and private approach with picked developers he would have been much more succesfull and we would not have this debate here today.

So, this straight forward approach is in my oppinion what it makes a clean approach and stop stigmatizing Mark.

Anyone for a gewd game of Wesnoth?

Cheers

JB

Artificial Intelligence
November 26th, 2006, 07:06 PM
Paranoia.

You wouldn't say that if you have been a Corel Linux user.

Get_Ya_Wicked_On
November 26th, 2006, 07:49 PM
You people are silly....

nyinge
November 26th, 2006, 07:52 PM
This is going to become a major flamewar if it wasnt already.
:D
Maybe it's time for the backyard? :D

loell
November 26th, 2006, 08:40 PM
i've expected my thread will go to the backyard sooner or later, or i'm ok with closing the thread, i think we've already stated our opinions more than enough.

Artificial Intelligence
November 26th, 2006, 09:29 PM
Op have requested his/her Thread closed.