i hate people who whine and whine and whine

[somuchfortheafter]

http://dotmepis.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=267&forum=10&post_id=1723
i mean come on some of that is just bs entirely, i also think som of their promblems, mainly the dude who tested fc4 and ubuntu suffers from a we bit of pebkac :)

ok after reading the second page it seems people there have their heads a tad bit more level, so for my rant just pay attention to the first page

[Leif]

I don't think we should go looking for arguments with other distro's forum pages. They have an opinion, they are entitled to it, and it's not like they're flooding this forum with it.

[Stormy Eyes]

They're a bunch of sore losers. If they care so much about Debian, why don't they get off their whinging asses and improve Debian instead of bitching about Ubuntu?

[The Producer]

I agree, mostly, with this part:


So, it boils down to this...Ubuntu is this huge shining example of Linux and many new users will probably flock to it...and they'll be disappointed because it doesn't do what they need it to do. Instead of directing them to a big shiny turd, we should direct them to REAL user friendly distros like MEPIS and PCLinuxOS...even Libranet is kickin compared to Ubuntu/Kubuntu. But now, Ubuntu/Kubuntu has ruined that for us...because new users flock to it and then go running back to Windows because "Linux hasn't arrived yet" Good for Linux? Hell no it isn't...it is sucking the marrow out of Linux and leaving the shell of bone behind.


To be completely honest, and coming from the perspective of a user who really only uses Linux for basic desktop operation, web page design, and 3D animation (i've been in the Linux world for about 5 months now), this is correct...not only for me, but for others i've recommended Linux to.

Ubuntu simply isn't new user friendly enough for the big attention it's getting. I can't imagine my mom...or my grade-school sister having to enter commands into a console just to get things to work, or to access programs that don't show up in the Menu Bar. And don't even get into setting one up...

[az]

They're a bunch of sore losers. If they care so much about Debian, why don't they get off their whinging asses and improve Debian instead of bitching about Ubuntu?

That would be Ian Murdock's point. He is the one quoted in the first paragraphs.


Whatever.

[TravisNewman]

MEPIS? User friendly? I didn't have that experience, but oh well. I didn't dislike it, but I didn't find it as user friendly as Ubuntu.

he does have a point, but the user friendly distros are mostly crap honestly, from my experience. It's easy to do a few things, but when you want to do ANYTHING outside it's comfort zone, it's not easy.

But what is "good for linux?"
The key thing that you have to keep in mind-- Linux (as a whole) has never been about being first to do something, or being popular, converting users, etc, etc, etc. It's been about making a solid product that works well and is efficient and stable. Is Ubuntu good for Linux? yes sir it is. Is Ubuntu good for people who want to convert people to Linux? Maybe not. But that's not exactly the point.

[Stormy Eyes]

Ubuntu simply isn't new user friendly enough for the big attention it's getting. I can't imagine my mom...or my grade-school sister having to enter commands into a console just to get things to work, or to access programs that don't show up in the Menu Bar. And don't even get into setting one up...

In grade school, I had to enter all kinds of commands into a console in order to run programs. The "system" I was using was a Commodore 64. Don't worry so much about your little sister. As for your mother: be grateful she doesn't have to bother with FDISK to get Ubuntu installed.

[The Producer]

The key thing that you have to keep in mind-- Linux (as a whole) has never been about being first to do something, or being popular, converting users, etc, etc, etc. It's been about making a solid product that works well and is efficient and stable.

Thank you for this clear definition of the Linux mission. I think people miss this point...and to them, it's more about triying to make Linux a "desktop OS", or trying to "defeat" MS or some other distro, which give people, especially beginners, the wrong impression...and why you probably have all of this useless whining and arguement.

[TravisNewman]

Thank you for this clear definition of the Linux mission. I think people miss this point...and to them, it's more about triying to make Linux a "desktop OS", or trying to "defeat" MS or some other distro, which give people, especially beginners, the wrong impression...and why you probably have all of this useless whining and arguement.
I can't say for a FACT that this is the true linux mission or whatever, but RMS himself has said something to that effect, and he's almost a bigger player than Torvalds-- heck, he IS a bigger player than Torvalds.

[The Producer]

In grade school, I had to enter all kinds of commands into a console in order to run programs. The "system" I was using was a Commodore 64. Don't worry so much about your little sister. As for your mother: be grateful she doesn't have to bother with FDISK to get Ubuntu installed.

So are you suggesting that those who don't know about the commands needed should stop whining, and learn them? Step up to the plate and do a few hours of research and investigation just to play a Nickelodeon Flash game? When it takes no effort in other OSes?

However, as it was basically said above, Linux isn't meant for mainstream desktop use yet. That's not the goal, people probably won't be recommending anyone to it yet, especially the simple people.

[TravisNewman]

Well-- I don't think that linux as a whole is meant for desktop use, but Ubuntu specifically is. Now, question is, however, what are the goals of a desktop system? Do we want easy, simple to use wizards with cute puppies guiding us through everything, all new accounts created with admin privileges, massive security holes, but easy-- or do we want stable, solid, functional, secure, but with a learning curve? Most people choose the first one for desktop use-- I wouldn't, and I wouldn't want anybody to, honestly.

[Stormy Eyes]

I can't say for a FACT that this is the true linux mission or whatever, but RMS himself has said something to that effect, and he's almost a bigger player than Torvalds-- heck, he IS a bigger player than Torvalds.

RMS bigger than Torvalds? I don't agree. What has RMS coded lately? Torvalds still works on the Linux kernel, but does RMS do anything other than advocacy? I'm not knocking advocacy, but I personally think that actually coding is more important.

[TravisNewman]

OK, yes, I see your point.
As far as the Linux MOVEMENT RMS is a bigger player-- as far as the Linux SYSTEM, Torvalds is a bigger player. They actually don't get along well, ironically ;)

But yeah, lets just call them equal for the sake of argument.

[The Producer]

Well-- I don't think that linux as a whole is meant for desktop use, but Ubuntu specifically is. Now, question is, however, what are the goals of a desktop system? Do we want easy, simple to use wizards with cute puppies guiding us through everything, all new accounts created with admin privileges, massive security holes, but easy-- or do we want stable, solid, functional, secure, but with a learning curve? Most people choose the first one for desktop use-- I wouldn't, and I wouldn't want anybody to, honestly.

I'm no programming professional, but i'm pretty sure it's possible to obtain both security and ease of use...and I mean reasonable ease of use, not anything over the top...

[Stormy Eyes]

So are you suggesting that those who don't know about the commands needed should stop whining, and learn them? Step up to the plate and do a few hours of research and investigation just to play a Nickelodeon Flash game? When it takes no effort in other OSes?

A few hours of research and investigation? It takes that long to punch up the Ubuntu Wiki, look at the Restricted Formats FAQ, and do what has to be done? Yes, Linux has a learning curve. I do not see a problem with this. A computer is not a toaster or a television, and you should not expect to be able to just plug it in and use it.

Making an effort once in a while won't kill your sister, your mother, or anybody else.

[Stormy Eyes]

OK, yes, I see your point.
As far as the Linux MOVEMENT RMS is a bigger player-- as far as the Linux SYSTEM, Torvalds is a bigger player. They actually don't get along well, ironically ;)

But yeah, lets just call them equal for the sake of argument.

That makes sense, now that we distinguish between movement and system.

[The Producer]

A few hours of research and investigation? It takes that long to punch up the Ubuntu Wiki, look at the Restricted Formats FAQ, and do what has to be done? Yes, Linux has a learning curve. I do not see a problem with this. A computer is not a toaster or a television, and you should not expect to be able to just plug it in and use it.

Well, it took me that long...longer on other in other areas to figure things out when I first started.


Making an effort once in a while won't kill your sister, your mother, or anybody else.

:-?

Well...I don't know what to say to that. Simple tasks like that are achieved on MAC OSX, and it doesn't crash left and right....

I'm sure someone can find a way to combine stability with ease of use...maybe not in Ubuntu, but maybe in some other specially created one. Only if they can come down off their high horses.

Maybe some people refuse to make things better for others who don't want to persue programming as a career...

[Stormy Eyes]

Well, it took me that long...longer on other in other areas to figure things out when I first started.

Fair enough; I do tend to forget that not everybody here cut their teeth on Red Hat 5.2 or learned Unix on a SunOS machine.


Well...I don't know what to say to that. Simple tasks like that are achieved on MAC OSX, and it doesn't crash left and right....

Since Linux is not Mac OS X, I don't think it's reasonable to expect Linux to be just like Mac OS.


I'm sure someone can find a way to combine stability with ease of use...maybe not in Ubuntu, but maybe in some other specially created one. Only if they can come down off their high horses.

Oh, please. Have you ever tried using a Linux distribution released in 1999 or earlier? Speaking as somebody who has used Linux for about six years, Linux has come a hell of a long way in terms of matters as subjective as "ease of use".


Maybe some people refuse to make things better for others who don't want to persue programming as a career...

I think you're being a bit overdramatic. Ubuntu doesn't include Flash and other proprietary formats by default because Ubuntu, like Debian, prefers to play it safe by installing only software that's free as in beer and free as in speech. It includes documentation on how to install proprietary software like Flash if you need or want to install it. Since I got my Ubuntu for free, I consider this quite reasonable. If I paid good money for Ubuntu, I'd be more inclined to complain.

[az]

That makes sense, now that we distinguish between movement and system.


I think if you are discussing the goal of linux you cannot exclude either side.

Again, it comes down to being GNU/linux.

GNU is extremely important in that if we do not protect the freedom that GPL software gives us, we may as well hand over the software industry from one monoply to another. If a proprietairy linux distribution were to become more popular that Windows, that would not be any better. The whole point is to have the software running in your computer be free and open source.

On the other hand, if the system is GPL software but doesn't work, people won't use it. The transition to open source software is going to take time. We are making compromises now, to hurry the proccess along.

Including binary-only drivers is one example. I would hope that people would chose to use an open-source alternative, or chose to buy product which have open-source drivers available over the closed-source counterparts. If you argue that these proprietary drivers should be included in the distribution nomatter what, that is one step closer to a linux operating system becoming proprietary.

[Stormy Eyes]

If you argue that these proprietary drivers should be included in the distribution nomatter what, that is one step closer to a linux operating system becoming proprietary.

No, I don't argue in favor of installing proprietary drivers by default. Just tell the user where to find them if he needs them or wants them.

[Leif]

Including binary-only drivers is one example. I would hope that people would chose to use an open-source alternative, or chose to buy product which have open-source drivers available over the closed-source counterparts. If you argue that these proprietary drivers should be included in the distribution nomatter what, that is one step closer to a linux operating system becoming proprietary.

Serious question : which companies do this ? Nvidia and Ati both give binary only drivers, right ? I'm just checking.

[Stormy Eyes]

Serious question : which companies do this ? Nvidia and Ati both give binary only drivers, right ? I'm just checking.

Right. Both nVidia and ATi's drivers are binary only and proprietary. I think it is because both vendors use tech licensed from other companies.

[The Producer]

Oh, please. Have you ever tried using a Linux distribution released in 1999 or earlier? Speaking as somebody who has used Linux for about six years, Linux has come a hell of a long way in terms of matters as subjective as "ease of use".



Ubuntu doesn't include Flash and other proprietary formats by default because Ubuntu, like Debian, prefers to play it safe by installing only software that's free as in beer and free as in speech.
I realize that now, and according to a friend who use to use Linux in CLI (who uses Windows now mainl because of gaming), it has came a long way.

I'm sorry if it seems as if i'm trying to argue, or be unreasonable. I catch on to things quick, and learning Linux wasn't really a problem for me after I got the basics...mostly because I enjoy computers.

All i'm trying to do is put myself in the shoes of those who are as talented or lucky as me or you, who want to be able to experience internet browsing, or other office tasks without the problems of Windows, which seems to be the root of many battles and locked threads all over the Linux world.

[Stormy Eyes]

All i'm trying to do is put myself in the shoes of those who are as talented or lucky as me or you, who want to be able to experience internet browsing, or other office tasks without the problems of Windows, which seems to be the root of many battles and locked threads all over the Linux world.

I understand. I just tend to side with the people who develop the free software I use. Most of them don't get paid for this, and so the initial temptation is to say, "Unless you're a paying customer, STFU."

[az]

Serious question : which companies do this ? Nvidia and Ati both give binary only drivers, right ? I'm just checking.

Ah! Which companies do this? Just about all the linux distributuins contain peices of proprietary apps. Video card drivers, Modem drivers, Wireless drivers... What is worse is distributions like Linspire or Xandros building priprietary tools for system administration.

I think a great example of doing the right thing is Novell buying Suze and open sourcing YAST. Suse is now a completely open source distribution.

To get back to the video cards, older ATI cards have (apparently) very stable open source drivers (dri project - ati have a better record of releasing their specs). Although most people on the forum would encourage the purchase of an nvidia card becaus the proprietairy nvidia drivers work better than the proprietairy ATI card drivers, I personally would buy a slightly older ATI card that is supported by the open source dri drivers.

Those are the choices that I am talking about. If _everybody_ did that, it would not take long for Nvidia to release their specs or their source code...

[Leif]

To get back to the video cards, older ATI cards have (apparently) very stable open source drivers (dri project - ati have a better record of releasing their specs). Although most people on the forum would encourage the purchase of an nvidia card becaus the proprietairy nvidia drivers work better than the proprietairy ATI card drivers, I personally would buy a slightly older ATI card that is supported by the open source dri drivers.

Those are the choices that I am talking about. If _everybody_ did that, it would not take long for Nvidia to release their specs or their source code...

This is a bit of a chicken and egg thing, isn't it ? To get leverage over companies, linux needs mass adoption, but for mass adoption, linux needs the hardware support that exactly the binary drivers from these vendors provide.

I'm actually not quite sure why they even bother providing the binary drivers. It's not like the windows market where it is generally driven by gaming; as far as i understand the matter, most people who game on linux seem ok with dual booting. Is it for commercial work. such as video editing ?

[az]

"This is a bit of a chicken and egg thing, isn't it ? To get leverage over companies, linux needs mass adoption, but for mass adoption, linux needs the hardware support that exactly the binary drivers from these vendors provide."

Despite this chicken-and-egg situation, linux has made tremendous strides. That is the point of the thread, isn't it? People shouldn't complain considering how much of an uphill battle desktop useability is.

If hardware vendors were to come knocking on the open source door to provide drivers as they knock on Microsoft's door, Linux as well as other open source operating systems would have a major percentage of the desktop market today.

[Azmodan]

It's funny how people forget that Windows have a learning curve too. People just don't remember that at some point, they had to learn how to use Windows too.

Most of the time, when people say "Linux isn't user-friendly", they mean : "Linux isn't an exact clone of Windows.". Some things are harder, some are easier and I'd say that in overall, Ubuntu is much easier to learn than Windows (mainly due to the how to defend your box part of the Windows learning curve).

Just before I started travelling last year, I installed Fedora Core 2 (Ubuntu wasn't out yet) on my computer and told her to use it while I was away. On her own computer, I had to reinstall WIndows every 3 weeks (yeah, she may be unluckier than the average Windows user...). Since I was not going to be around, I thought it would be better for her to use something that would not go down easilly.

I had 2 days to train her. Her main complaint was that OpenOffice.org wasn't MS Office but each time, I just pointed her to the OOo equivalent of what she wanted to do.

Now, almost a year later, the computer is still up. She never needed any help to use it. And she think it's better than Windows.

People who are technically knowledgeable tend to think that making newbies learn Linux is long because it was long for them. But newbies knew almost nothing about their previous platform and don't want to know more about Linux. They just want to do some simple task and the amount of information they have to learn before they feel confortable with their new platform is pretty small.

So, just install the OS for them. Install apps that they need. Point them what they need to know on their system. And quickly, they are up and running.

She needs to buy a computer for university and guess what, Ubuntu will be installed on it :)

[Leif]

Despite this chicken-and-egg situation, linux has made tremendous strides. That is the point of the thread, isn't it? People shouldn't complain considering how much of an uphill battle desktop useability is.

If hardware vendors were to come knocking on the open source door to provide drivers as they knock on Microsoft's door, Linux as well as other open source operating systems would have a major percentage of the desktop market today.

Oh god yes. Just compared to two years ago linux has changed dramatically, at least from my usability point of view. I think a lot of the complaining may have a bit to do with the "uncanny valley" effect (http://www.arclight.net/~pdb/nonfiction/uncanny-valley.html) - I hope noone gets offended by the analogy. I think that linux is getting close to the stage where it is ready for every mom and pop, and that's why the little things stick out. Back a couple of years ago when things were a lot rougher, everyone accepted this as how things were. Anyway, that got a bit off-topic.

As for the hardware support, if things continue as they are now, it's inevitable that things will improve. You can say a lot of things about companies, but they know where the money is.