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jmtjet
November 20th, 2006, 11:01 PM
Here's a read on it:
http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.

SuSE is buying in:

A key element of the agreement now appears to be Novell's US$40 million payment to Microsoft in exchange for the latter company's pledge not to sue SUSE Linux users over possible patent violations

After MS knocks off Linux they plan to start charging users a yearly subscription fee. Will Microsoft's greed never end?

56phil
November 20th, 2006, 11:04 PM
M$ greed will never end. That's one reason I quit. Who needs them?

WalmartSniperLX
November 20th, 2006, 11:10 PM
The sad thing is I like gaming on consols and would pick a x360 over a ps3 anyday. But, the ps3 seems more bennificial for an open community user. The xbox requires that you have windoze to enable some cool multimedia features. Also, I hate the xbox live verification bs ;)

BWF89
November 20th, 2006, 11:19 PM
In order for them to knock Linux off the market they'd have to sue every distributor of Linux. And even if they knocked out all the commercial distros there would be countless community driven ones. Which could possibly create even more community distros since people would just pick up the source code of fallen commercial distros and move ahead with it.

And if they successfully sue all the community and commercial distros countries and states would start bringing anti-trust lawsuits against Microsoft again for holding a monopoly.

Brunellus
November 20th, 2006, 11:22 PM
The sad thing is I like gaming on consols and would pick a x360 over a ps3 anyday. But, the ps3 seems more bennificial for an open community user. The xbox requires that you have windoze to enable some cool multimedia features. Also, I hate the xbox live verification bs ;)
please, let's stop with the M$ and windoze. It's infantile, unenlightening, and, frankly, a bit old.

This Novell/Microsoft deal is going to be interesting. Already, the first shot has been launched, with Novell offering VB support on its build of OpenOffice.

If the "interoperability" engineering isn't done JUST RIGHT, we'll be looking at SCO, but with cause.

The PS3 will be a failure as a gaming console...but it is, as far as I can see, a competitively-priced PPC Linux box. One user has already successfully installed Fedora on a PS3 in a multiboot setup.

I've made my peace with the XBox360. I don't use my windows partition for media, so the cool multimedia features are really neither here nor there.

dataw0lf
November 20th, 2006, 11:26 PM
please, let's stop with the M$ and windoze. It's infantile, unenlightening, and, frankly, a bit old.


Hear, hear!



If the "interoperability" engineering isn't done JUST RIGHT, we'll be looking at SCO, but with cause.


That's been the fear from day one in regards to Mono, but I think Novell is going to pull it off.

I truly doubt Microsoft will sue Linux users. If they do, it'll be sheer idiocy: with today's youth (or any generation's, for that matter), who wouldn't want to install a renegade operating system, given free publicity by the major market holder of operating systems? The fallout from that will nullify any cowards who run for the hills.

WalmartSniperLX
November 20th, 2006, 11:27 PM
Ok to be honest, I think Microsoft does deserve to have its money. There are laws in the US inwhich MS dwells in. They have every right to enforce the laws that protect their software and developers.

However It can be annoying. If MS CAN sue linux users, then they WILL.

But if it ever happened to me I don't think I can complain

Brunellus
November 20th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Hear, hear!



That's been the fear from day one in regards to Mono, but I think Novell is going to pull it off.

I truly doubt Microsoft will sue Linux users. If they do, it'll be sheer idiocy: with today's youth (or any generation's, for that matter), who wouldn't want to install a renegade operating system, given free publicity by the major market holder of operating systems? The fallout from that will nullify any cowards who run for the hills.
Individual users aren't the prize. The prize is killing off the large corporate sponsors--Sun, IBM, Red Hat and, yes, even Novell.

If I say it now, I've said it a thousand times--individual geeks GROSSLY overstate their own importance in the scheme of things. They can get an OS up and running, but it takes mass adoption and major muscle to get that OS to become a major player.

Burgresso
November 21st, 2006, 12:08 AM
from a news site re: "Microsoft makes claim on Linux code":


"Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer has said that every user of the open source Linux system could owe his company money for using its intellectual property."


OK, if Novell paid MS not to sue because Linux used MS intellectual property, what the heck can/is MS be reffering too?

What specifically in Linux could be the intellectual property of MS?

Is anyone else bewildered about this?

Mimsy
November 21st, 2006, 12:14 AM
I've kind of assumed they are referring to a clickable GUI, but in that case they'd be better off going after Apple, wouldn't they?

/Mimsy

jbtito03
November 21st, 2006, 12:19 AM
Oi...

I dont think so...

Take a look at this :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUI

Cheers 8)

JB

Mimsy
November 21st, 2006, 12:22 AM
Now you're assuming Microsoft would care about something irrelevant like reality. Just like we all know the RIAA doesn't care at all that you're actually allowed to copy CDs for your own personal use, as long as you don't distribute the contents for others to use.

/Mimsy

Koori23
November 21st, 2006, 12:26 AM
I've kind of assumed they are referring to a clickable GUI, but in that case they'd be better off going after Apple, wouldn't they?

/Mimsy

Technically speaking, they both stole the gui from Xerox. Thing I don't understand is.. How can Linux steal proprietary code from a closed source program (or OS in this case)? I mean, do you honestly think that any Linux developer would want anything from Microsoft code anyway?

rfruth
November 21st, 2006, 12:28 AM
The MS/Novell deal has really got this going, there are several threads here on the Ubuntu forums (among other places) kicking this around, VBA (visul basic apps) is one of the sore spots ... http://openubuntu.blogspot.com/2006/11/vba-in-openoffice-do-you-celebrate-or.html

smoker
November 21st, 2006, 12:43 AM
does this mean it is open office that i have to uninstall to be free of any ms code?

also, is there a hidden agenda by ms here, is suse going to become the next 'new windows lite' or something.

i will gladly stop using anything on my computer related to ms if i knew exactly what it is, and i am sure most people would.

diggity
November 21st, 2006, 12:58 AM
There is no Microsoft code in Linux as it is closed-source. IP and patents generally refer more to processes than actual code. Code is covered more by copyright.
I imagine Microsoft has some lame patents that Linux distributions emulate. Of course, these are patents that probably should never have been granted in the first place.

WalmartSniperLX
November 21st, 2006, 01:35 AM
Hey let me put it this way (in a very unproductive way). I love Linux :D

smoker
November 21st, 2006, 01:47 AM
[QUOTE=Ok to be honest, I think Microsoft does deserve to have its money. :D[/QUOTE]

if i knew what exactly i owed ms money for, i would gladly remove it from my machine:D

IYY
November 21st, 2006, 02:37 AM
This is obviously not a claim they are going to take to court. However, any business that is considering switching to Linux and is doing research is now going to get information that says that Linux somehow stole things from Microsoft. This makes regular people afraid that this Linux thing is some dodgy hacker stuff that's going to disappear in a few years/months.

A classic example of FUD: Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. One of Microsoft's most successful dirty tactics.

sonny
November 21st, 2006, 02:38 AM
M$ is just trying to scare people off... that's always been their strategy, according to Levy:
"Customers were afraid they'd get sued if they crossed platforms and this meant that they were hesitating on buying decisions," said Levy. "As part of the deal Microsoft will agree not to sue our customers and we agreed not to sue their customers. This is not an agreement between companies we can still sue each other for any number of reasons but ultimately our respective customers needed peace of mind to make decisions."This is in The Register... so it works both ways... he won't sue anyone... because if he does he'll have to open his code to show that Linux really has some M$ stuff... he knows that as soon as he says something the community would change the code and the trial would take ages to come out with a veredict.

Albi
November 21st, 2006, 02:47 AM
He just hopes to scare off a few users and businesses, not actually gonna do anything with it

Burgresso
November 21st, 2006, 03:12 AM
A classic example of FUD: Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. One of Microsoft's most successful dirty tactics.

Hmmm, good point...

Smart on MS; but I hope/wish people see its bull

jpkotta
November 21st, 2006, 03:58 AM
He just hopes to scare off a few users and businesses, not actually gonna do anything with it

On the contrary, he's doing something with it and that something is trying to scare people. Probably a better scenario (for Linux) is if MS did go to court, where they would certainly lose yet again.

RussianVodka
November 21st, 2006, 03:58 AM
Nobody is going to sue anybody else. I'm 100% sure that Linux infringes on at least one of MS's thousands of software patents. The problem is, if they start suing and start trying to put down Linux that way, then there will be nothing stoping companies like IBM from taking legal actions against Microsoft for their own infringed pattents. And I'm pretty sure sure MS will not dare take on IBM.

darkhatter
November 21st, 2006, 04:17 AM
I think Linux is gotten to powerful to just roll over and die, if Microsoft was to start suing Red Hat, Novell, IBM, SUN, etc would all go against them. Linux is a virus and its spreading way to fast.

DoctorMO
November 21st, 2006, 04:25 AM
This is the one thing that annoys me when talking to non Linux people about this patent problem.

They don't understand the differences between patents and copyright
They assume copyright infringement to mean theft
They assume companies are the only valid makers of copyright and patents

Now the first thing to point out is that no matter how many software patents Microsoft thinks it has against GNU/Linux distributions none of them will work in the EU where software patents aren't allowed.

In patent law you go after the makers and distrobuters not the end users. it'll be hard for microsoft to pull together a case based on someone using an 'infringing product' than someone creating one.

Microsoft would be putting it's self in severe danger should they ever try and assert patent claims. the FSF, OIN, IBM, HP, and even Red Hat have patents that windows infringes. Novell had the strongest case though and with them out the way Microsoft are trying it on.

I find it ironic that while GNU/Linux will never contain microsoft code; windows contains free software code. and Bill Gate as he said would like to steal what ever code he wants in order to make it propritory. and I completely disagree with him. for a start he assumes usa tax money made all open source software via universities. I don't think so my good man, I make FOSS software and I don't get a dime from your stupid US tax system so stop trying to steal me work!

Busch
November 21st, 2006, 04:47 AM
pfffft. stupid microsoft, lol im not going to worry about anything.

drphilngood
November 21st, 2006, 05:48 AM
It seems to me that Microsoft creates this same FUD every time they release a new OS. They use this threat in the same manner that a shepherd uses his sheepdog to prod the few sheep who straggle - the sheep in this case being the businesses thinking of foregoing the expense of updating their Microsoft products and just going with Linux.

cantormath
November 21st, 2006, 05:51 AM
Here are some legal notes that I have made as far as microsoft and patents....
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=303152

vayu
November 21st, 2006, 07:09 AM
please, let's stop with the M$ and windoze. It's infantile, unenlightening, and, frankly, a bit old.


Respectfully, I submit, being irritated and using words as harsh as infantile and unenlightening for a simple expression is more objectionable than the expression. Using M$ as a shorthand for a company with such strong practices of greed and destruction to diversity as Microsoft exhibits, is perfectly acceptable and actually charming in my book.

DoctorMO
November 21st, 2006, 07:16 AM
The whole thing stinks of hot air fud. linux hasn't got anything to worry about.

And whom ever the plonker who said he'd gladly pay Microsoft their due. get off it, software patents don't even make sense. tell you what Microsoft can have software patents or copyrights but not both. that's fair. or we could just strip patents away from market leaders preventing them from enforcing them which is also fair. (I don't care what you invented, when your size hurts the market it's supposed to help then you need to be brought down to size)

Microsoft hurts the IT world, it's being going on for years and it's about time we viewed them with the disregard they deserve.

ade234uk
November 21st, 2006, 08:17 AM
Ok so Microsoft says that Linux is using part of its code, where is it? Oh I forgot know one can see Microsofts source can they. So when is this incriminating code going to be shown?

Why have Novell joined forces with this scum, does Novell know something we dont?

Dont worry all this slagging off that Ballmer does towards Linux is making M$ look really really greedy. Its making people look at the alternatives.

blitzer
November 21st, 2006, 08:25 AM
Harvard students :-k

StarsAndBars14
November 21st, 2006, 08:30 AM
By all means MS. Subpoena me for using teh b4d bad linuxes.

This is one of those times where I'm glad that the immediate family is well versed in criminal/civil law. :D

WalmartSniperLX
November 21st, 2006, 08:34 AM
if i knew what exactly i owed ms money for, i would gladly remove it from my machine:D

Well I guess the fact is that when you use a MS product, you agree to their terms of service, which then makes then 'God' over you and your cash ;) if money happens to be involved (and most likely it is)

So do what I did and remove XP (and vista) :D :D

RAV TUX
November 21st, 2006, 08:39 AM
duplicate thread to be merged.

Sunnz
November 21st, 2006, 01:17 PM
It seems to me that Microsoft creates this same FUD every time they release a new OS. They use this threat in the same manner that a shepherd uses his sheepdog to prod the few sheep who straggle - the sheep in this case being the businesses thinking of foregoing the expense of updating their Microsoft products and just going with Linux.
Umm just wondering, what kind of FUD they used last time? (XP?)

Bezmotivnik
November 21st, 2006, 02:48 PM
Did anyone ever actually answer the question?

I'm mildly curious myself.

NESFreak
November 21st, 2006, 03:10 PM
the truth is they didn't claim anything yet. They're simply saying that they're going to tell you-know-what to you-know-who. Which is exactly how i could make my sister to leave me alone and mind her own busyness when she was irritating me when she was younger. Now she realizes that i didn't knew a thing.

The stupidest thing is finding out ourselves what could possibly be illegal. Cause then MS wouldn't be needing to find it out themselves.

+"i know what you have done!!"
-"i never touched your book"
+"WHAT so thats where my book is"
-"crap, shouldn't have said that"

NESFreak

Brunellus
November 21st, 2006, 03:15 PM
Respectfully, I submit, being irritated and using words as harsh as infantile and unenlightening for a simple expression is more objectionable than the expression. Using M$ as a shorthand for a company with such strong practices of greed and destruction to diversity as Microsoft exhibits, is perfectly acceptable and actually charming in my book.
It's a useless gesture. You can call it M$ Wind0ze if you like, but largely, this usage is confined to echo-chambers like this. You're preaching to the converted about the wickedness of the unbelieving--it's too easy. It turns no one away from their software. It does nothing to advance the goals of your software.

If it's used in a "mixed" environment, it only suceeds in making the speaker appear like a raving lunatic, incapable of rational analysis or discussion.

Microsoft has done some strongly objectionable things in the past. Its support for the software-and-business-method-patent structure should be opposed at all turns. Its pricing structures are more reminiscient of the Old Economy--Jay Gould, say-- than the "New" Economy. But simply dismissing Microsoft and Windows with childish epithets will not make the bogeyman go away.

Queeg
November 21st, 2006, 04:16 PM
It's a useless gesture. You can call it M$ Wind0ze if you like, but largely, this usage is confined to echo-chambers like this. You're preaching to the converted about the wickedness of the unbelieving--it's too easy. It turns no one away from their software. It does nothing to advance the goals of your software.

If it's used in a "mixed" environment, it only suceeds in making the speaker appear like a raving lunatic, incapable of rational analysis or discussion.

Microsoft has done some strongly objectionable things in the past. Its support for the software-and-business-method-patent structure should be opposed at all turns. Its pricing structures are more reminiscient of the Old Economy--Jay Gould, say-- than the "New" Economy. But simply dismissing Microsoft and Windows with childish epithets will not make the bogeyman go away.

So showing our contempt for M$ with this is wrong? I'll just have to remember any dissent to our overlords is wrong, sorry about that.

PapaWiskas
November 21st, 2006, 06:18 PM
So showing our contempt for M$ with this is wrong? I'll just have to remember any dissent to our overlords is wrong, sorry about that.

Your first reply ever in the forums is this? :confused:

You should know that Overlords NEVER accept apologies, at least thats how it is in the movies. 8)

PapaWiskas
November 21st, 2006, 06:26 PM
OK...so once again in English (no offense to anyone in a country that don't speak English)...has anyone anwered the question?

If not what is the SPECIFICS Microsoft is claiming?

IYY
November 21st, 2006, 06:40 PM
Here's what he could mean:

- Open Office supporting various aspects of Microsoft Office
- Wine emulating Windows
- SAMBA sharing with Windows
- Reading NTFS

However, any one of those claims is incredibly stupid and can be easily refuted (not to mention that all of the above features were included only to support Microsoft's. So, he doesn't say what the claim is on purpose. That is the answer. You are not getting another one any time soon, I think.

Brunellus
November 21st, 2006, 06:57 PM
So showing our contempt for M$ with this is wrong? I'll just have to remember any dissent to our overlords is wrong, sorry about that.
I don't even know why I'm responding any more.

Namecalling is unhelpful. Maybe it makes you feel better--sure, whatever. But it doesn't fix any bugs or write any documentation. Nor does it encourage hardware vendors to open their specification or release free drivers. Nor does it advance the cause of free software in any way.

If you think you're being smart just because you call them M$, well, I hate to break it to you, brother: you're not.

bonzodog
November 21st, 2006, 07:00 PM
Any chance someone could merge these threads please?
They are cluttering up the place.

Brunellus
November 21st, 2006, 07:01 PM
the claim is latent, not obvious (we'd say 'patent' in Latin, but that's a different story, ha ha!).

Essentially, Microsoft are collaborating with Novell for better interoperability between Novell (Linux) products and Microsoft Products.

The trap here is that if Microsoft can prove that any of their proprietary code makes it into a Novell product which is released under a different license, Microsoft has a cause of action against Novell.

From my (outsider's) understanding of the situation, Novell will still have to clean-room engineer its interoperability projects--the only difference is that Microsoft is saving them the tiresome step of disassembly.

Sunnz
November 21st, 2006, 07:01 PM
M$ (:P); sue us whenever you are ready; we've been waiting for it!!!

Brunellus
November 21st, 2006, 07:03 PM
threads merged.

Please keep the mindless bashing and flaming down to reasonable levels. I am tempted to move this to the microsoft subforum.

justin whitaker
November 21st, 2006, 07:03 PM
I'm more interested in the question: if MS comes a-suing, are Mark Shuttleworth, Red Hat, and Mandriva ready to pay to prove they are right and MS is wrong in court?

Brunellus
November 21st, 2006, 07:08 PM
I'm more interested in the question: if MS comes a-suing, are Mark Shuttleworth, Red Hat, and Mandriva ready to pay to prove they are right and MS is wrong in court?
Add Sun and IBM to the list of interested parties. IBM has proven that it's been willing to defend the kernel with legions of lawyers--see SCO v. IBM

cantormath
November 21st, 2006, 09:05 PM
I'm more interested in the question: if MS comes a-suing, are Mark Shuttleworth, Red Hat, and Mandriva ready to pay to prove they are right and MS is wrong in court?

I would say we have all been paying for a very long time.....

Macintosh Sauce
November 21st, 2006, 11:13 PM
I've kind of assumed they are referring to a clickable GUI, but in that case they'd be better off going after Apple, wouldn't they?
Microsoft admit to stealing ideas from Apple? I don't know...
http://www.seascape.us/jrhodes/shrug.gif

OffHand
November 22nd, 2006, 12:15 AM
Here's what he could mean:

- Open Office supporting various aspects of Microsoft Office
- Wine emulating Windows
- SAMBA sharing with Windows
- Reading NTFS

However, any one of those claims is incredibly stupid and can be easily refuted (not to mention that all of the above features were included only to support Microsoft's. So, he doesn't say what the claim is on purpose. That is the answer. You are not getting another one any time soon, I think.

- Wine Is Not an Emulator ;)
- Open Office is not part of the Linux Kernel.
- Samba... hmmm yeah, this could be a problem.
- I do not think being able to read NTFS is illegal.

ethan961
November 22nd, 2006, 01:47 AM
How could Samba be a problem -- you can do the same things as Mac can. Microsoft would be a lot better off threatening Mac users, Linux is FREE and OPEN SOURCE, surely there would be no filthy MS code in it, right? This wants to make me wipe the HDDs of every MS computer I see!

Phatfiddler
November 22nd, 2006, 04:25 AM
SCO vs. IBM - Wikipedia site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_v._IBM)