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slavik
November 18th, 2006, 01:44 AM
I work as a systems technician in my college's library. My boss (not yet 30 but acts almost my age which is just over 20) told me with utmost certainty that I will buy Vista.

My response was "No, I won't."

His response was an argument that I will buy Vista for new games that will make use of DirectX10.

Over the past week I thought of his words and I realised something. If I want to play DirectX10 games, then I need Vista (100USD bare minimum), then I will also need a decent DX10 video card (200-300USD for a model or 2 under the best of the best). This seems like 300-400 USD investment so far, but there is more. My system right now is an AGP type system, which means that if I wanted a new card, I would have to buy a new motherboard with PCI Express which is another 100-200USD (for a decent/good motherboard). After the motherboard, I will also need a new CPU (my current CPU is a SocketA Athlon XP 2500-M) which is also 100 to 200USD (depending if it's dual core or not) and new RAM (100USD for 1GB?).

For those who are not human calculators, we are talking about 600USD at the minimum (900USD for something a bit better). I am not even talking about my 3 IDE CD/DVD drives and 3 IDE hard drives (they are connected via Promise UltraATA 133). Did I mention that I am a college student? Did I also mention that I don't like things I don't like shoved down my throat? (marketing/technologies/anything).

While my neighbors will be ordering the latest Dell to be able to run Vista (or pre-loaded with Vista), I will be enjoying my AIGLX (I am sure that ATI will have proper support for it by then) Beryl desktop.

And now back to your scheduled programming, so stop drooling.

DannyG
November 18th, 2006, 01:50 AM
Your assuming that game developers will just suddenly switch to DX10 the second Vista is released.

It will be a very gradule introduction, so I don't think you should be worried just yet.

Patrick K.
November 18th, 2006, 01:57 AM
Your assuming that game developers will just suddenly switch to DX10 the second Vista is released.

It will be a very gradule introduction, so I don't think you should be worried just yet.

I know 9 game developers who say the will refuse to work on games for Windows Vista. 2 of them teamed up just recently to work on a first person shooter for openGL/openAL under Linux.

I see nothing but entertainment coming our way.

DoctorMO
November 18th, 2006, 02:14 AM
When the lock on gaming is broken and DirectX does not mean windows or DirectX is not what is used to program games.

then we will have won.

Polygon
November 18th, 2006, 03:39 AM
I know 9 game developers who say the will refuse to work on games for Windows Vista. 2 of them teamed up just recently to work on a first person shooter for openGL/openAL under Linux.

I see nothing but entertainment coming our way.

you have a list or a news link somewhere that i can look at about this?

rfruth
November 18th, 2006, 03:45 AM
Sure glad I'm not a M$oft slave :mrgreen:

Dual Cortex
November 18th, 2006, 03:54 AM
I work as a systems technician in my college's library. My boss (not yet 30 but acts almost my age which is just over 20) told me with utmost certainty that I will buy Vista.

My response was "No, I won't."

His response was an argument that I will buy Vista for new games that will make use of DirectX10.

Over the past week I thought of his words and I realised something. If I want to play DirectX10 games, then I need Vista (100USD bare minimum), then I will also need a decent DX10 video card (200-300USD for a model or 2 under the best of the best). This seems like 300-400 USD investment so far, but there is more. My system right now is an AGP type system, which means that if I wanted a new card, I would have to buy a new motherboard with PCI Express which is another 100-200USD (for a decent/good motherboard). After the motherboard, I will also need a new CPU (my current CPU is a SocketA Athlon XP 2500-M) which is also 100 to 200USD (depending if it's dual core or not) and new RAM (100USD for 1GB?).

For those who are not human calculators, we are talking about 600USD at the minimum (900USD for something a bit better). I am not even talking about my 3 IDE CD/DVD drives and 3 IDE hard drives (they are connected via Promise UltraATA 133). Did I mention that I am a college student? Did I also mention that I don't like things I don't like shoved down my throat? (marketing/technologies/anything).

While my neighbors will be ordering the latest Dell to be able to run Vista (or pre-loaded with Vista), I will be enjoying my AIGLX (I am sure that ATI will have proper support for it by then) Beryl desktop.

And now back to your scheduled programming, so stop drooling.

I wouldn't accept prices of new parts as an argument against Windows.
Even if games were OpenGL based, to play the latest generation games you would need to upgrade your computer.

Adrenal
November 18th, 2006, 04:37 AM
This is why I use consoles. 400 bucks every five years.

FusionXN1
November 18th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Im going form PC to 360 when i get some cash.

tehhaxorr
November 18th, 2006, 06:20 AM
you have a list or a news link somewhere that i can look at about this?

I believe that it was a collaboration between Epic and 3D Realms. They are not making the game on Linux, they are using OpenGL instead of Direct X as a primary rendering engine because with DX10 they can only release the game to customers with Vista and XP users can't use it because DX10 API is not backwards compatible.

slavik
November 20th, 2006, 04:45 PM
I wouldn't accept prices of new parts as an argument against Windows.
Even if games were OpenGL based, to play the latest generation games you would need to upgrade your computer.
My X800 has OpenGL 2.0 support ...

tubasoldier
November 20th, 2006, 04:54 PM
I believe that it was a collaboration between Epic and 3D Realms. They are not making the game on Linux, they are using OpenGL instead of Direct X as a primary rendering engine because with DX10 they can only release the game to customers with Vista and XP users can't use it because DX10 API is not backwards compatible.

If this is true, then when that game comes out please purchase it. Dont go get it off some torrent site, but acutally buy it. A real strong showing of monetary support for proprietary games will encourage more growth in that sector.

mips
November 20th, 2006, 07:05 PM
It would be nice if developers switched to OpenGL. Unfortunately it is not exactly the same as DirectX which is more than just graphics but includes sound and other stuff as well.

OpenGL needs to enhance itself.

ZylGadis
November 20th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Ever heard of OpenAL, SDL, etc?
If a programmer / game studio wants to escape from DirectX, there are well established open standards / libraries to help. OpenGL is a graphics thing, and it should remain specialized. Don't transfer Windows's major architectural screw-up (everything is monolithic) to Linux. Modularization is the way of the future.
Now, if someone is so dumb as to fail to grasp modular programming because he's used to Windows's way, he should not really be a programmer. Perhaps he should transfer to marketing or something. And I would not trust such a person to write games for me anyway.

Circus-Killer
November 20th, 2006, 09:01 PM
this is pricisely why i'm looking forward to the release of vista. its a proven fact that gaming pushes the direction of all technologies. computers would not be where they are today without the intense gaming demand.

microsoft used this to there advantage. since the days of dos 3.1 they have been in front in gaming. more gaming, means its likely to be in more homes. im more homes gives bigger reputation. companies start following reputation over logic. the birth of windows.

but now with directx 10 only for vista, i really think microsoft have done themselves in. as the original post said, whose gonna spend all that money. and i think game developers will start waking up and realising the truth, there is more to the world of gaming than directx.

let the games begin! :-D

.t.
November 20th, 2006, 09:12 PM
I will never use Windows Vista. And I also hope never to get a refund.







If this confuses you; work it out!

prizrak
November 20th, 2006, 09:52 PM
People really assign too much value to PC gaming. Consoles are the primary gaming devices not PC's. If you don't believe me watch some mainstream gaming shows like X-Play (say what you want about them, but they are as mainstream as it gets) and see how many PC games they have versus consoles. Gaming on PC is pretty much dead, the only ones that really can never leave PC are MMORPGs and strategy.

The problem with our thinking is that we think like geeks. I try to look at things from a different perspective but it's not always possible. Yes we play computer games, we install OS's and so on. However we are not the majority of computer users. The majority plays spider solitaire and buys stuff on Ebay. My uninitiated friends would not know Ubuntu from Win 3.1 if their life depended on it. Incidentally they also don't play any "serious" games.

Also just because Vista is coming out doesn't mean people will be switching to it for the prices quoted. XP took about 2-3 years to catch on as the dominant OS. What is top of the line this year will be average spec next year. By the time regular people start buying Vista systems they will cost pretty much what averaged spec systems cost now if not less.

Simple case in point. My (recently deceased) laptop cost me $1500 about 3 years ago. It had 256MB of PC2700 RAM, no wireless (albeit there was a slot for a MiniPCI card), 40GB HDD and a 64MB shared Intel video, and a P4-m 2.2Ghz CPU. I added extra RAM and wireless to it later to bring the grand total to about $1700.

Couple of months ago I got a new one for $1300. It came with 128MB dedicated nVidia 6300 Go, 80GB HDD (5400 too vs 4200), 512MB PC5700 (DDR2) RAM, built in wireless and a Pentium M @ 1.7Ghz (roughly the same performance as a P4 3.6Ghz). That's not all, it is actually a convertible, that can be used as either as a laptop or a tablet PC. In addition if I want to upgrade the RAM to 1.25GB (it's 2x256 modules) it would bring the price up to $1400.

When looking at other laptops I saw machines for about $1400 with Core Duo in them. Despite having more power, the newer laptops are on average cheaper than the one I had (it wasn't top of the line then either). Vista will do just fine, as all Windows OS's before it. 2000 was barely backwards compatible with the 9x line and did just fine.

mips
November 20th, 2006, 09:59 PM
People really assign too much value to PC gaming. Consoles are the primary gaming devices not PC's. If you don't believe me watch some mainstream gaming shows like X-Play (say what you want about them, but they are as mainstream as it gets) and see how many PC games they have versus consoles. Gaming on PC is pretty much dead, the only ones that really can never leave PC are MMORPGS and strategy.

I never really enjoyed PC games. Consoles are much better but i do not even don't play those anymore, must be an age thing. i prefer the simpler/older arcade/console stuff.

Played lots of games on my Amiga but that was just as good if not better than a console.

Circus-Killer
November 20th, 2006, 10:12 PM
People really assign too much value to PC gaming. Consoles are the primary gaming devices not PC's. If you don't believe me watch some mainstream gaming shows like X-Play (say what you want about them, but they are as mainstream as it gets) and see how many PC games they have versus consoles. Gaming on PC is pretty much dead, the only ones that really can never leave PC are MMORPGs and strategy.

All I was trying to say in my previous post was that if you take a look at the majority of people that go out and buy a 512MB state-of-the-art gfx card for there home pc, they are buying it to play games with it.

prizrak
November 20th, 2006, 10:17 PM
All I was trying to say in my previous post was that if you take a look at the majority of people that go out and buy a 512MB state-of-the-art gfx card for there home pc, they are buying it to play games with it.

For sure, those people will buy them regardless of the OS, as long as it supports the game they want to play. My point was a bit on the other side of the tracks. People seem to claim that just because Vista will be the only OS to support DX10 and has crazy hardware requirenments people will flock to Linux. And also that games make any kind of difference in switching.

Circus-Killer
November 20th, 2006, 10:27 PM
well, i'de have to say games is a MAJOR factor for people switching to linux. i know every single one of my friends still only use XP because they play games.

they've tried ubuntu, they like ubuntu, but they need their games. if game developers starting creating multiplatform games, i can tell you now most of my friends would switch over.

even i get tempted to dual boot from time to time. but i manage to refrain, and watch my windows games (that i paid a fortune for in SA) collecting dust. i know those games will forever be a waste of money, but i do dream of a day when i can buy a commercial game off the shelf for linux. ;)

Choad
November 20th, 2006, 10:56 PM
I work as a systems technician in my college's library. My boss (not yet 30 but acts almost my age which is just over 20) told me with utmost certainty that I will buy Vista.

My response was "No, I won't."

His response was an argument that I will buy Vista for new games that will make use of DirectX10.

Over the past week I thought of his words and I realised something. If I want to play DirectX10 games, then I need Vista (100USD bare minimum), then I will also need a decent DX10 video card (200-300USD for a model or 2 under the best of the best). This seems like 300-400 USD investment so far, but there is more. My system right now is an AGP type system, which means that if I wanted a new card, I would have to buy a new motherboard with PCI Express which is another 100-200USD (for a decent/good motherboard). After the motherboard, I will also need a new CPU (my current CPU is a SocketA Athlon XP 2500-M) which is also 100 to 200USD (depending if it's dual core or not) and new RAM (100USD for 1GB?).

For those who are not human calculators, we are talking about 600USD at the minimum (900USD for something a bit better). I am not even talking about my 3 IDE CD/DVD drives and 3 IDE hard drives (they are connected via Promise UltraATA 133). Did I mention that I am a college student? Did I also mention that I don't like things I don't like shoved down my throat? (marketing/technologies/anything).

While my neighbors will be ordering the latest Dell to be able to run Vista (or pre-loaded with Vista), I will be enjoying my AIGLX (I am sure that ATI will have proper support for it by then) Beryl desktop.

And now back to your scheduled programming, so stop drooling.
that makes the ps3 sound like an economy option!

56phil
November 20th, 2006, 11:01 PM
Are action games on a PC really that important?

Tamacracker
November 20th, 2006, 11:33 PM
I figured that because Linux has a hard time with new developed games, at least since most of the time they're really made for windows. That I would just wait for my PS3, and Windows will no longer exist... well unless Linux cannot sync my music onto my Toshiba Gigabeat MP3 player, then I'm royally stuck on windows just for my mp3 player.

prizrak
November 20th, 2006, 11:56 PM
well, i'de have to say games is a MAJOR factor for people switching to linux. i know every single one of my friends still only use XP because they play games.

they've tried ubuntu, they like ubuntu, but they need their games. if game developers starting creating multiplatform games, i can tell you now most of my friends would switch over.

even i get tempted to dual boot from time to time. but i manage to refrain, and watch my windows games (that i paid a fortune for in SA) collecting dust. i know those games will forever be a waste of money, but i do dream of a day when i can buy a commercial game off the shelf for linux. ;)

Again it is only a major factor for you and your friends not for 80% of people out there. PC gaming is pretty marginal in the grand scheme of computer usage. Also the absolute key to widespread Linux adoption is the organizational desktop as that will drive people to install Linux on their home machines. As you can imagine games matter very little there.

DarkDancer
November 21st, 2006, 04:17 AM
Bill Gates plans to turn the p.c. into the ultimate gaming platform, under Vista of course. Having said that, I dual boot for games. I am trying Vista though and it;s useless for me for gaming, there are no drivers for my nostromo speed pad. Mostly windows is taking up space.

burek
November 21st, 2006, 04:41 AM
When the lock on gaming is broken and DirectX does not mean windows or DirectX is not what is used to program games.

then we will have won.

WIth Vista, lot of users will switch to other OS ?

Statistics of OS users could be interesting to look at ...
I expect decrease of 15 pct for windows
increase of 11 pct for mac os
and increase of 4 pct for linux

hmm

Vista and M$, too much ram consuming !

prizrak
November 21st, 2006, 03:13 PM
Bill Gates plans to turn the p.c. into the ultimate gaming platform, under Vista of course. Having said that, I dual boot for games. I am trying Vista though and it;s useless for me for gaming, there are no drivers for my nostromo speed pad. Mostly windows is taking up space.
Then releasing the Xbox 360 would have to be the dumbest possible move he coulda made.

WIth Vista, lot of users will switch to other OS ?

Statistics of OS users could be interesting to look at ...
I expect decrease of 15 pct for windows
increase of 11 pct for mac os
and increase of 4 pct for linux

hmm

Vista and M$, too much ram consuming !
1) What makes you think OS X is any less power hungry? In fact it is the slowest OS of all 3.
2) Vista is too power hungry for the average computer right now but 1-2 years down the line it will be just fine.

IF (and it's a pretty big one) MS will lose any significant ground in desktop OS's based on Vista short comings alone, it will be to the Mac. Linux is unlikely to gain much market share.

This is figuring that nothing major occurs in the OS world such as some huge companies switching to Linux/OS X for their desktops.

the.dark.lord
November 21st, 2006, 05:47 PM
I know 9 game developers who say the will refuse to work on games for Windows Vista. 2 of them teamed up just recently to work on a first person shooter for openGL/openAL under Linux.

I see nothing but entertainment coming our way.

That's great news