Microsoft and the 24-hour Linux phenomenon

[sunscape]

I thought this might be interesting to my fellow Ubuntu, or any linux distrobution, user. How many here can account for the complete opposite? In other words, Linux and the 24-hour Microsoft phenomenon.

After purchasing my pretty* fujitsu p7010, I immediatly installed Ubuntu. I did not even start Windows XP, but instead opted to format anything pre-installed on the hd, followed by a mishap involving the Windows XP software cd's and the garbage can.

And Bill,** as i tell my girlfriend when i'm cornered and in trouble, the cat did it!

Link to the original story:

Microsoft and the 24-hour Linux phenomenon

http://www.infoworld.com/article/05/04/25/17OPopenent_1.html

*There is just no other word to describe my computer :-)
**I do not personaly know bill gates, but if i did, the first thing i would do is point and laugh.

[paul cooke]

I see... he's making the insinuation that every computer with Linux pre-installed will have Linux wiped and a dodgy copy of ms-windows installed...

The fact that I can't get a computer with Linux pre-installed on it anywhere in the normal high-street stores or chains in the UK is by the by, he's basically stating that the reason the OEM's are strongarmed into only making ms-windows pre-installs available is an anti-piracy measure...

[localzuk]

I did exactly the same (however I have kept the windows cd, in case my laptop dies and has to go back). Just no point in even going into windows, even once...

[SamH]

Allchin sure doesn't mention how many PCs are now dual-boot, or like in my case, have swappable boot HDs. I still have XP on one of my boot drives, but it only goes into the chassis when I want to play some games that I only have in PC version.

[TravisNewman]

Allchin sure doesn't mention how many PCs are now dual-boot, or like in my case, have swappable boot HDs. I still have XP on one of my boot drives, but it only goes into the chassis when I want to play some games that I only have in PC version.
Did you know that you could leave them both in there and tell GRUB to swap the boot drives for you? You never have to open your case up just to play games again :)

Anyway, that's hilarious. Microsoft has been doing crap like this for a long time, but this is ridiculous.

[SamH]

I don't have to open my case. I installed one of those HD swappable trays. The drives slide in and out in a caddy like some sort of cartridge. They are supposed to be for swapping data HDs I think, but work just fine for boot drives too.

Way back with RH 6.something I was doing dual boot. My Windows partition got corrupted somehow. I know this isn't common, but the swappable drives eliminate that possibility anyway. I know some other people do this too. I have four drives I use. One has Ubuntu (now) and is my main drive I use most of the time. A second has WinXP on it. The other two I use to experiment with other distros. A swap takes only takes about 30 seconds longer than just rebooting with a dual (or more) boot system.

[poofyhairguy]

Very interesting.


But the majority of our conversation that afternoon focused on the client side. Here Allchin was far less charitable, attributing Linux's reported growth in the desktop market to something he called the "24-hour Linux phenomenon."

According to Allchin, most customers who buy a new computer outfitted with Linux instead of Windows are doing it solely as a cost-cutting measure. They avoid the Windows license fee at the cash register when they ask for systems with Linux preinstalled. Once they get the hardware home, however, that Linux OS is quickly erased and replaced with a pirated copy of Windows -- often within 24 hours.

Allchin calls the practice of replacing the default OS with Windows "flipping," and he says it's particularly prevalent in Asian markets, where software piracy is rampant. In China, he says, shipments of desktop Linux are actually declining. The reason? Vendors who once shipped systems with Linux preinstalled are now switching to free or low-cost versions of DOS. That's because it's a lot easier for a customer to flip a system loaded with that bare-bones OS than it is to flip a comparatively more Byzantine Linux system.

I have seen more systems be sold online by big vendors that have free dos than linux.

Good link.

[panzer77]

I think the question is… Just where does Jim get his information? It’s always easy to make this type of claim. How does Jim account for those of us who own several versions of Billy’s best, but choose not to install or use it?

“Whether a customer sends revenue Microsoft's way or not, a machine that ships with Linux but ends up running Windows is not a gain for Linux. “

This comment is really surprising to me because I have seen quite the opposite. I have removed Billy’s best off of several computers, and installed Linux. On that same note I have several others choosing to run dual boot (with Linux as primary OS and only keeping windows for games).

I think it’s pretty obvious that Linux has been making some profound change, or they wouldn't spend so much time and money talking about Linux. Regardless of what OS you use, it’s really nice to have choice.

[sonny]

Well I've seen this happening... two friends of mine bought a PC with Linspire pre-installed on them... and the first thing they did was kick off linspire and then install Winbugs.

I think they got along a couple of days with Linspire, but they ended up not knowing what happened avery time they pressed a key, so naturally they got sick of the OS and went back to winXP; one of them didn't buy it because of the price, but because the seller told him it was the new "windows" (when he said that I went to ELEKTRA; a house appliance store, and ask for the characteristic of the PC and it turn out that none of the seller knew it was a linux box, they didn't even know tit exist something else than winbugs), but he didn't like the new "windows" in his box, so he made a "downgrade" to XP. The other one knew it was a Linux box, tried it for about 6 hours, and couldn't make it to do what he wanted, so he installed winXP.

I think NOT everyone will do like my friends did, but if the user can't get the machine to do what he/she wants to do, then Linux will last as long as they get a Winbugs cd, but is not an OS problem, I think is more like a user problem, because some of them are really addicted to winbugs and won't change it for anything.

I think that if my two friends had call me to see want was "wrong" with their computers I guess they'd be better off right now with their linux box.

[XDevHald]

Ewww Winblows! and no, why have Linspire when you can actually enjoy a good freedom of controlling a soft touched desktop of Ubuntu.

Plus, pre-installs of KDE distros are not usually the best, 9x out of 10, they're bugged to the extent of really having to remove them and install another distro, if not enjoy winblows of doom 3, and other games.

But still don't know why they'd install winblows :p

[Brunellus]

Well I've seen this happening... two friends of mine bought a PC with Linspire pre-installed on them... and the first thing they did was kick off linspire and then install Winbugs.

I think they got along a couple of days with Linspire, but they ended up not knowing what happened avery time they pressed a key, so naturally they got sick of the OS and went back to winXP; one of them didn't buy it because of the price, but because the seller told him it was the new "windows" (when he said that I went to ELEKTRA; a house appliance store, and ask for the characteristic of the PC and it turn out that none of the seller knew it was a linux box, they didn't even know tit exist something else than winbugs), but he didn't like the new "windows" in his box, so he made a "downgrade" to XP. The other one knew it was a Linux box, tried it for about 6 hours, and couldn't make it to do what he wanted, so he installed winXP.

I think NOT everyone will do like my friends did, but if the user can't get the machine to do what he/she wants to do, then Linux will last as long as they get a Winbugs cd, but is not an OS problem, I think is more like a user problem, because some of them are really addicted to winbugs and won't change it for anything.

I think that if my two friends had call me to see want was "wrong" with their computers I guess they'd be better off right now with their linux box.
sounds like our household's experiment with SuSE a while ago. My brother still tells me to get Windows for any computer that our mother is likely to touch, because (his words):

"She's not going to know how to use it, and she can't ask anyone to tell her because nobody runs Linux. You'll get too annoyed with helping her out every time, and things will just grind to a halt"

[TravisNewman]

winbugs? It amazes me how many false titles people can come up with to bash another distro or operating system. winbugs is definitely one that I haven't heard before.

[poofyhairguy]

I think NOT everyone will do like my friends did, but if the user can't get the machine to do what he/she wants to do, then Linux will last as long as they get a Winbugs cd, but is not an OS problem, I think is more like a user problem, because some of them are really addicted to winbugs and won't change it for anything.


Not addicted. Comfortable.

[sonny]

She's not going to know how to use it, and she can't ask anyone to tell her because nobody runs Linux. You'll get too annoyed with helping her out every time, and things will just grind to a halt

I guess that was a few years ago, right now Linux has evolve to a new level (a better one), before I completlely switch to Linux I had tried Mandrake 7 and it was really a pain in the a***, so went back to winbugs; I little bit dissapointed about linux, but now... I can see so much difference between those days and now, I guess that sooner or later "normal" people will feel like home when using Linux.

I don't think my mother is prepare to Linux, not because of her learning capacity, but for her addiction to XP, she doesn't care about cleaning her computer, scanning for viruses, trojans, and so on (task that took her about 15 min to learn). As I've said, some people just love their winbugs, and it has to be fine, I think that Open Source goes hand to hand with Freedom of Choise, and if you like winbugs thats fine, but you should be able to change it as soon as you get sick of it.


Not addicted. Comfortable.

poofyhairguy I say addicted because some of them don't even like winXP; though they keep using it as if it wre an impulse. If you show them Linux they'll go back to winXP, but they're not comfortable. They keep using it because all their files depend upon that specific OS, and they need, they want it, but they don't like it, nor feel comfortable with using it.

[TravisNewman]

" poofyhairguy I say addicted because some of them don't even like winXP; though they keep using it as if it wre an impulse."
That doesn't mean they're not comfortable-- it's the devil you know versus the devil you don't. You're comfortable because you know how to use it, at least in a minor way, regardless of whether you hate it. If people go back to Windows, it has to be because they're comfortable. Talk to anyone who's had depression problems for years-- they're afraid of getting better, because, even though they hate it, it's what they've grown comfortable with. Look at all the women who get beat nearly to death by their husbands. They stay because it's what they know, it's what they're comfortable with.

Sorry, I may have gone on longer than I needed to ;)

[poofyhairguy]

poofyhairguy I say addicted because some of them don't even like winXP; though they keep using it as if it wre an impulse. If you show them Linux they'll go back to winXP, but they're not comfortable. They keep using it because all their files depend upon that specific OS, and they need, they want it, but they don't like it, nor feel comfortable with using it.

They might not be comfortable using it, but they must be comfortable with the concept of if they keep running back. Its the opposite for me- I can make XP feel pretty comfortable to use but I'm uncomfortable about its concepts (such as file format lock-in).

Most people see computers as tools. Expensive, hard to use, moody tools. XP fits their notions.

[sonny]

" poofyhairguy I say addicted because some of them don't even like winXP; though they keep using it as if it wre an impulse."
That doesn't mean they're not comfortable-- it's the devil you know versus the devil you don't. You're comfortable because you know how to use it, at least in a minor way, regardless of whether you hate it. If people go back to Windows, it has to be because they're comfortable. Talk to anyone who's had depression problems for years-- they're afraid of getting better, because, even though they hate it, it's what they've grown comfortable with. Look at all the women who get beat nearly to death by their husbands. They stay because it's what they know, it's what they're comfortable with.

Sorry, I may have gone on longer than I needed to ;)

Well you have a point; the women beatted by their husbands are not comfortable with it, they're use to it, though. There's a big difference between been used to scan your machine for viruses, having 000's of pop ups comming out of a single IE window, or even have porn pages that automaticaly open for you (like my mom.. she have some of those... :grin: ), but you don't feel comfortable with it, although you have no choice, either because it's the company's machine, your software doesn't work with anyother OS, or you don't want to know that there is something else.

Haven't you have something that annoys you, but you don't feel like fix it today, so you leave it for tomorrow, and the next day you don't want to do something about it, you worked hard and you're too tired, so you'll be fixing it tomorrow, but is still there annoying you. The days grow into weeks, and then months, and it is still there, but by now... you're USED to it; it still annoys you, though. I guess that's what happens with most of the winbugs users... only their case is more drastic... :grin:


Most people see computers as tools. Expensive, hard to use, moody tools. XP fits their notions.

I guess it all sums to it... XP doesn't fit the notion of Linux users; or if I might put it in some other way... Windows doesn't fit the needs of the Linux users... :-P

[dcraven]

That's because it's a lot easier for a customer to flip a system loaded with that bare-bones OS than it is to flip a comparatively more Byzantine Linux system.
Does anyone know what that is supposed to mean? I don't understand how it's more difficult to format a Linux box when compared to formatting a DOS box. But maybe I've just misunderstood. The "Byzantine" bit smells a bit like FUD to me. But to what end?

~djc

[poofyhairguy]

Does anyone know what that is supposed to mean? I don't understand how it's more difficult to format a Linux box when compared to formatting a DOS box. But maybe I've just misunderstood. The "Byzantine" bit smells a bit like FUD to me. But to what end?

~djc

He's full of it. Its a memorized bunch of lines that the marketing department created. He tried to create a new term for it, just like marketing people do when they want things to catch on.

Either way, his story seems a little off. Its almost as if he brags that Windows is pirated a lot...

[localzuk]

It doesn't matter which OS 'average users' use, they all still have problems - and end up calling the known computer geek - their son, daughter etc... Ubuntu, like most linuxes is a better OS for fixing it yourself. It is easy to tell someone a list of commands to type on a console compared with the inevitable 're-install' followed by 'but but but what about all my work...'

True, linux has a larger learning curve but that doesn't matter. It will mean less messing in the long run.

[paul cooke]

Does anyone know what that is supposed to mean? I don't understand how it's more difficult to format a Linux box when compared to formatting a DOS box. But maybe I've just misunderstood. The "Byzantine" bit smells a bit like FUD to me. But to what end?

~djc

Byzantine is deliberately used here to imply that Linux is needlessly complicated in needing weird partitions to function... basically, the Windows installer borks big time when it sees a hard disk with a non-standard (to them) partition table... it's far happier with finding a dos or ntfs partition or else no partition at all... for a windows user to take an exclusively Linux box and put ms-windows on it requires knowledge of an "arcane" command line tool such as fdisk...

[heimo]

He's full of it. Its a memorized bunch of lines that the marketing department created. He tried to create a new term for it, just like marketing people do when they want things to catch on.

Either way, his story seems a little off. Its almost as if he brags that Windows is pirated a lot...

I'd say his facts are a bit "flipped" and byzantine.

[paul cooke]

Either way, his story seems a little off. Its almost as if he brags that Windows is pirated a lot...

of course he does... they'd far rather ms-windows was pirated and people remain dependant upon it, than have people discover there is a real alternative if only they'd wean themselves of their "addiction".

After all, Bill Gates himself is quoted as saying:

"Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software, someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."

they'll make lots of noises about how they're cracking down on pirates etc. but they don't want people who would otherwise pirate windows from having Linux... or they don't want to admit that, maybe, some of those people who buy machines with Linux pre-installed actually do keep Linux on it, if not the actual version that came with it.

Now what we really need is a really uncrackable activation scheme for Longhorn...

I still have reasons to suspect that Microsoft themselves are behind the leaking of some corporate keys for XP Pro and Windows 2000. The keys appeared just a few days before the official release.

[az]

This is part of the media machine. The continual smear compaign. They are creating buzzwords for themselves (flipping).
I am 100 percent sure that they make up facts like this everyday (24 hours or linux time on a new box)

This is part of a campaign to discourage the sale of computers without windows preinstalled. You can image the boss of a computer shop saying
"We must pre install windos. People will think we are encouraging piracy and that would be bad for business".

Inasmuch as windows piracy, the best thing Microsoft whas going for its' monopoly is that winodws 98 is still supported and universally available. Just about any i386 computer on the planet can run win98 and get on the internet. The day that microsoft anounces that win98 is legacy software and will not receive any attention, linux growth will take off (more than it is growing now)

Perhaps microsoft may release an "open-source" version of win 98 just before they lagacy it. Such a licence does not have to be a free one, and perhaps most of the code would not even have to be released. But that would maintain the interest in win98 for that much longer. You would have thousands of people diverting their open source efforts from linux to this half-opened win98 following.

.... Yes, this is FUD on my behalf.

[sonny]

of course he does... they'd far rather ms-windows was pirated and people remain dependant upon it, than have people discover there is a real alternative if only they'd wean themselves of their "addiction".

After all, Bill Gates himself is quoted as saying:

"Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software, someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."

they'll make lots of noises about how they're cracking down on pirates etc. but they don't want people who would otherwise pirate windows from having Linux... or they don't want to admit that, maybe, some of those people who buy machines with Linux pre-installed actually do keep Linux on it, if not the actual version that came with it.

Now what we really need is a really uncrackable activation scheme for Longhorn...

I still have reasons to suspect that Microsoft themselves are behind the leaking of some corporate keys for XP Pro and Windows 2000. The keys appeared just a few days before the official release.


I totally agree with you... there's no way MS will end up the piracy of their software, that's what made them a monopoly in the first place. But something has to be granted to MS... that really was a SMART action to take (and a hard one I guess), now Gates is the richiest man on the planet, but I think that's the only smart thing he's done.

And now they certainly see some menace in Linux, they're starting to worry, and if you can make a man with that kind of power to worry, then you're doing something right. Although they have to cover the fear, they're not quite good at it, and it's in comments like this one, when you can smell the fear through their $10,000-armani suit and the $2000 perfume.

[primeirocrime]

It doesn't matter which OS 'average users' use, they all still have problems - and end up calling the known computer geek - their son, daughter etc... Ubuntu, like most linuxes is a better OS for fixing it yourself. It is easy to tell someone a list of commands to type on a console compared with the inevitable 're-install' followed by 'but but but what about all my work...'

True, linux has a larger learning curve but that doesn't matter. It will mean less messing in the long run.

Yep. I confirm that. I'm my family computer geek. And by the way not very gifted. I can read a manual and press F1 [tried that with my folks, they seem to miss it]
But take this: my mother usees xp because of a flash game she plays in this shady site that only allows for IE6. really addicted to that since she stop smoking, I'm trying to get her hooked on something else but I admit to fail because i don't "use" games, so I don't really know. Other than that her knoldge of windows is the same as gnu/linux. For her to install winXP or FreeBSD is the same. Ok maybe not FreeBSD but let's say Ubuntu...I remember I left them a live cd and the computer to boot from the cd-rom for a couple of weeks and then I didn't return their calls, And they contacted me by mail :D using the Live CD, warty if i recall. Most people are point and click anyway, and ubuntu for most people can be just point and click same as windows but without the slowing down. Another funny thing is that they thought I had installed UBuntu on the hard-drive, they never ever imagined it was possible to boot from a cd and most people are like that, a computer is just a box that does a lot of funny things.

[SamH]

... most people are like that, a computer is just a box that does a lot of funny things.

I concur. My wife uses a networked computer everyday at work. I've explained over and over about the difference between the C:/ drive and the other drives that are on the network. She still doesn't really get it. To her they are all one and the same. It is either on her computer or it is not. She is not an unintelligent woman.....except about computers. I try to explain and her eyes glaze over. She says,"Yes, okay" but it really isn't going from her ears to her brain. And she know this. She just want the PC to work.

At home, she doesn't care what the OS is as long as she knows which icon to double-click and there is a bookmark that takes her to her bank website and it works once she logs in. (Ouch...I think that was a run on sentence.)