PDA

View Full Version : Mr. Tambourine Man



rjwood
November 13th, 2006, 02:56 AM
I often think about the perks ( if you will) human being have over other living creatures. There are many. One of my favorites is considering the meaning of things we communicate to one another. I enjoy observing body language, listening to music as well as other forms of art (all life is art, isn't it.?), and I listen very carefully to things not said.


Many of you weren't even a gleam in your daddy's eye when Bob Dylan was a young writer/composer. Writing some of the most wonderful poetry and enhancing it with music. I believe Bob Dylan is a prophet. He is very abstract as an artist. In much of his work, sound offers one mood, while the lyrics seem to conflict and speak to you someplace else. One of those pieces is Mr Tambourine man. If you want to listen, I'm sure you can find it somewhere.


I have this cynical side to me, and during those times, when I am cynical, Mr Tambourine Man looks fearful. I see it as a sad commentary on the indoctrination of our young via our school system and the consequences thereof. Maybe, unconsciously, it's because I think it describes me.


I see this young person, after finishing school, unemployed, wondering what do do next. Up to this point, he/she has pretty much been told how and when to conduct their motions, thoughts, emotions, actions....everything by strangers, even strange behaving parents. Anyway, this young person is there, alone, wondering what to do with his/her life. Some direction is needed from someone.


Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, Play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to
Hey, Mr Tambourine man, play a song for me
in the jingle jangle morning, I'll come following you


It's a shame our young all over the world are so controlled. They are homogenized , robbed of individuality and know only how to think cerebrally. As they grow, they have already forgotten how to....I won't preach.


What do you think?

Patrick K.
November 13th, 2006, 03:26 AM
I often think about the perks ( if you will) human being have over other living creatures. There are many. One of my favorites is considering the meaning of things we communicate to one another. I enjoy observing body language, listening to music as well as other forms of art (all life is art, isn't it.?), and I listen very carefully to things not said.


Many of you weren't even a gleam in your daddy's eye when Bob Dylan was a young writer/composer. Writing some of the most wonderful poetry and enhancing it with music. I believe Bob Dylan is a prophet. He is very abstract as an artist. In much of his work, sound offers one mood, while the lyrics seem to conflict and speak to you someplace else. One of those pieces is Mr Tambourine man. If you want to listen, I'm sure you can find it somewhere.


I have this cynical side to me, and during those times, when I am cynical, Mr Tambourine Man looks fearful. I see it as a sad commentary on the indoctrination of our young via our school system and the consequences thereof. Maybe, unconsciously, it's because I think it describes me.


I see this young person, after finishing school, unemployed, wondering what do do next. Up to this point, he/she has pretty much been told how and when to conduct their motions, thoughts, emotions, actions....everything by strangers, even strange behaving parents. Anyway, this young person is there, alone, wondering what to do with his/her life. Some direction is needed from someone.


Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, Play a song for me
I'm not sleepy and there is no place I'm going to
Hey, Mr Tambourine man, play a song for me
in the jingle jangle morning, I'll come following you


It's a shame our young all over the world are so controlled. They are homogenized , robbed of individuality and know only how to think cerebrally. As they grow, they have already forgotten how to....I won't preach.


What do you think?




If this is about country music. No thanks.

Spano
November 13th, 2006, 03:31 AM
I think the kids are alright. I'm 44 and have worked with some teens and twenty year olds in food service here in the American Midwest. They are mostly hard working polite and smart.

23meg
November 13th, 2006, 03:34 AM
One of those pieces is Mr Tambourine man. If you want to listen, I'm sure you can find it somewhere.
Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRbeUnn-AUA) it is.

Dylan is very important to me, not for this particular song though, which I hadn't thought of before in the context you put it in.

IYY
November 13th, 2006, 04:21 AM
If this is about country music. No thanks.

Bob Dylan is not even remotely close to country. The best way to define his genre would be 'Folk', 'Rock' or 'Folk/Rock', although I don't think even those labels do him justice. He was unique, and perfect in his own way.

My favourite songwriter, no doubt about it. I personally think that his best song is It's Alright Ma, part of which is quoted in my sig.

Mr. Tambourine Man is one of the first songs/poems that actually got through to me and made me understand what poetry is really about (I liked poetry before, but I enjoyed it through the mind rather than the heart.) I love listening to it and playing it on guitar (by the way, the guy who maintains the Bob Dylan guitar-chord site likes Free Software, and there is a Linux script to create a beautiful LaTeX formatted songbook from the site.)

I think that Bob Dylan and GNU/Linux (RMS, Linux) have a lot in common. When Bobby was just starting out as a musician, music was about commerce. It sounded good enough, and people bought it, but it had no meaning. However, he listened to music from a different time: folk artists, like Woody Guthrie (like the Unix system). Dylan, and other folk musicians from the time, revived this old style and improved it just like the founding fathers of GNU/Linux did with Unix. And what were these new songs about? Only one thing: Freedom.

The topics of folk songs are Freedom: the struggle of the working man, fighting the oppression from the government.

Folk itself is Freedom: there are no strict rules like in regular music, you don't have to have an expensive instrument, take music lessons, have a good singing voice... You do whatever feels right. It's music for the people, by the people, just like the GNU is for software! And of course, everybody is free to modify the songs, and release their own versions! In fact, this is exactly what Dylan did at the beginning of his career (and later on too.)

raublekick
November 13th, 2006, 04:49 AM
RJ -

I somewhat agree with you, but on the same token I don't. At my college (which I believe you are well familiar with) I see a lot of kids that are just... I dunno, meatheadish. College drinking team fratboy sorority sister people. I think the school itself is really good at not promoting this, but it's how it happens.

However, don't be so quick to judge based on these types of things. One of my friends kinda fits that description, and I actually didn't care to be friends with him because of it. But after getting to know him I realized he is a really awesome guy. People often look like sheep but really are not.

The kids I work with are pretty awesome. For youngsters between the ages of 16-22 they work hard and actually care about their job. And some of them are really bright and not so much followers of the crowd.

I believe there is a pretty big disconnection between this generation and your generation. Your generation didn't grow up with computers, cell phones, hi-def TV, etc. Our generation has been using these things since a pretty young age. It's such an information overflow that it is sometimes hard to remember that there are more important things than text messages, blog posts, and catching the latest episode of Gilmore Girls.

I will say that the kids these days don't know good music though ;)


Lyrics from one of my favorite songs, which also have something to do with this thread:


My eyes convinced, eclipsed with the younger moon attained with love.
It changed as almost strained amidst clear manna from above.
I crucified my hate and held the word within my hand.
Theres you, the time, the logic, or the reasons we dont understand.

Sad courage claimed the victims standing still for all to see,
As armoured movers took approached to overlook the sea.
There since the cord, the license, or the reasons we understood will be.

Down at the edge, close by a river.
Close to the edge, round by the corner.
Close to the end, down by the corner.
Down at the edge, round by the river.

Sudden problems shouldnt take away the startled memory.
All in all, the journey takes you all the way.
As apart from any reality that youve ever seen and known.
Guessing problems only to deceive the mention,
Passing paths that climb halfway into the void.
As we cross from side to side, we hear the total mass retain.

Down at the edge, round by the corner.
Close to the end, down by a river.
Seasons will pass you by.
I get up, I get down.

-----------------------------------

Two million people barely satisfy.
Two hundred women watch one woman cry, too late.
The eyes of honesty can achieve.
How many millions do we deceive each day?
I get up, I get down.
I get up, I get down.

In charge of who is there in charge of me.
Do I look on blindly and say I see the way?
The truth is written all along the page.
How old will I be before I come of age for you?
I get up, I get down.
I get up, I get down.
I get up, I get down.

--------------------------------

Close to the edge, down by the river.
Down at the end, round by the corner.
Seasons will pass you by,
Now that its all over and done,
Called to the seed, right to the sun.
Now that you find, now that youre whole.
Seasons will pass you by,
I get up, I get down.
I get up, I get down.
I get up, I get down.
I get up.

Peepsalot
November 13th, 2006, 04:50 AM
I like that analogy of folk music and GNU/Linux, I've never thought of it that way before.

One of my favorite folk songs which I think is also on topic is "little boxes":


Little boxes on the hillside,
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky,
Little boxes, little boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

And the people in the houses
All go to the university,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
And there's doctors and there's lawyers
And business executives,
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf-course,
And drink their Martini dry,
And they all have pretty children,
And the children go to school.
And the children go to summer camp
And then to the university,
And they all get put in boxes
And they all come out the same.

And the boys go into business,
And marry, and raise a family,
And they all get put in boxes,
Little boxes, all the same.
There's a green one and a pink one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

Peepsalot
November 13th, 2006, 05:18 AM
I sometimes think about the rampant consumerism that is so prevalent in today's society(probably more so in the US than other places), and it depresses me. I future starts to look bleaker: everything an advertisement, everyone a slave to their own possessions and the corporations that produce them. Devoid of true human spirit.

The problem is it's so easy to conform, you don't even have to think about it. I often feel like I've been tricked into this sort of lifestyle. But it's like a bad habit that's difficult to kick. It is a drug. I really admire the artists, free spirits, and quirky individuals that go against the norm, who determine their own lifestyles and create unique things and ideas to share with the world. For some reason I feel like I'm missing something that these people have.

Patrick K.
November 13th, 2006, 06:12 AM
Ok I really dislike Folk music, but... That was awesome.

Peepsalot
November 13th, 2006, 06:22 AM
Ok I really dislike Folk music, but... That was awesome.
I don't think you really dislike folk music, you probably just haven't heard the good stuff. ;)

The quality of songs varies greatly in all genres. I try to keep an open mind and don't necessarily say that any one classification of music just plain sucks.

IYY
November 13th, 2006, 07:23 AM
Ok I really dislike Folk music, but... That was awesome.

Considering your previous comment comparing Bob Dylan's music to country, I don't think you know just what Folk music is. It's not a specific sound. It doesn't have to be played on acoustic guitars and harmonicas. Folk is the music the common people write for themselves. The reason Folk is associated with the cowboy image in America is because that's what the common people in America were like during the days of Woody Guthrie.

During the days of Dylan, Folk music became more urbanized.

You could say that rap music is also a sort of Folk music, if you are talking about the underground stuff and not Eminem and DMX.

Pretty much all music that's considered ``Indie'' is in fact Folk.

Patrick K.
November 13th, 2006, 08:58 AM
Considering your previous comment comparing Bob Dylan's music to country, I don't think you know just what Folk music is. It's not a specific sound. It doesn't have to be played on acoustic guitars and harmonicas. Folk is the music the common people write for themselves. The reason Folk is associated with the cowboy image in America is because that's what the common people in America were like during the days of Woody Guthrie.

During the days of Dylan, Folk music became more urbanized.

You could say that rap music is also a sort of Folk music, if you are talking about the underground stuff and not Eminem and DMX.

Pretty much all music that's considered ``Indie'' is in fact Folk.


I never went to the link to find out. I know what it is, I generally don't like it-at all. Bob Dylan sound like a country music singer name to me. That is why I didn't clicky.

You know when you see something nasty in the pot? Like someone forgot to flush. Yeah cold shiver thing when I hear Country music.

mips
November 13th, 2006, 10:13 AM
I often think about the perks ( if you will) human being have over other living creatures. There are many.

I would not put us above other creatures. We do not understand & cannot communicate much with other creatures. I do however believe they communicate pretty well with each other though.

Bob Dylan makes some great music, was introduced to his stuff by an ex girlfriend.

rjwood
November 13th, 2006, 03:17 PM
I sometimes think about the rampant consumerism that is so prevalent in today's society(probably more so in the US than other places), and it depresses me. I future starts to look bleaker: everything an advertisement, everyone a slave to their own possessions and the corporations that produce them. Devoid of true human spirit.

The problem is it's so easy to conform, you don't even have to think about it. I often feel like I've been tricked into this sort of lifestyle. But it's like a bad habit that's difficult to kick. It is a drug. I really admire the artists, free spirits, and quirky individuals that go against the norm, who determine their own lifestyles and create unique things and ideas to share with the world. For some reason I feel like I'm missing something that these people have.

After reading what you have written here, I would say you are gifted. Don't short change yourself. To be conscious of your cultural myths whether just a little or alot is an ability (gift) not many possess. You know, the difference between me and a prophet, is the prophet is usually not sure why he or she is so tuned into some things, while I have to work at seeing it. They are almost haunted by there feelings and thoughts. When all is quiet with them, these understanding seem to appear out of nowhere. It's an interesting phenomena!

Keep thinking! That can not be taken away without your permission. Which is exactly what I think Dylan is saying in this song. Read the lyrics, it gives a sense of personnel disconnect of ones self and therby a loss of direction. A tambourine is an interesting instrument because it can sound a cadence or a dance all by itself.

fuscia
November 13th, 2006, 03:44 PM
i disagree with the notion that humans are the only species to appreciate body language. other species are much more sensitive to body language and actually act on it while we ignore it in favor of verbal communication.

my favorite dylan song (and there are many) is 'sad eyed lady of the lowlands'. on the whole, it certainly doesn't paint a clear picture, to say the least (not in the same way 'everybody must get stoned' does), but it does string together some tremendous images and combinations of words that rival the experience of the most vividly inexplicable dreams. on many occassions, i have spent hours listening to that song, over and over again. bob dylan is more charlatan than prophet, in my view (which places him higher than prophet, in my scoring system).

Sushi
November 13th, 2006, 03:51 PM
Can't go wrong with Chuck Berry


When I was a little biddy boy
My grandma bought me a cute little toy
Two Silver bells on a string
She told me it was my ding-a-ling-a-ling

My Ding-A-Ling My Ding-A-Ling won't you play with My Ding-A-Ling
My Ding-A-Ling My Ding-A-Ling won't you play with My Ding-A-Ling

When I was little boy In Grammar school
Always went by the very best rule
But Evertime the bell would ring
You'd catch me playing with my ding-a-ling

Once while climbing the garden wall,
Slipped and fell had a very bad fall
I fell so hard I heard birds sing,
But I held on to My ding-a-ling

Once while swimming cross turtle creek
Man them snappers right at my feet
Sure was hard swimming cross that thing
with both hands holding my dingaling

Now this here song it ain't so bad
Prettiest little song that you ever had
And those of you who will not sing
must be playing with your on Ding-a-ling

;)

cmorgan47
November 13th, 2006, 07:10 PM
bob dylan is more charlatan than prophet, in my view (which places him higher than prophet, in my scoring system).

curious....how so? on both accounts?

jocheem67
November 13th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Dylan is probably the best folk-singer up to day, offcourse that is a personal view. But don't forget that he himself owes a lot to the blues-men of the twenties and thirties. And that definition of folk that's been thrown around overhere...well....you could state the same thing 'bout blues I guess.

And "for the people and made by the people" ...that counts for my home-made techno too...It's all so personal and impossible to discuss...

About the youngsters, they are definitely more ambitious at a younger age than I was ( a long time ago ).But that's in Holland. I do worry about consmumeratism though, people, not just the young, wanna have it " all ".

I am a modest guy, and I do miss that in a lot of other people nowadays...pity...

fuscia
November 13th, 2006, 08:05 PM
curious....how so? on both accounts?

he changed his name from zimmerman to dylan (after dylan thomas), imitated woody guthrie until he got sick of it ('lay, lady, lay'), went born-again to counter bad publicity from beating his wife and i haven't followed much of him since.

i've always gotten a kick out of charlatans: mesmer, ferdinand waldo demara, john cage, etc. they are far more entertaining to me than prophets.

rjwood
November 13th, 2006, 10:23 PM
i disagree with the notion that humans are the only species to appreciate body language. other species are much more sensitive to body language and actually act on it while we ignore it in favor of verbal communication. I meant to mean, observing and discerning communication skills and tendencies were a difference. Sorry for not being more clear. I may be incorrect about that as well, I am however speaking from my own personnal knowledge or lack thereof. I personally do pay equal attention to body language and the spoken word.

For the record, I don't think animals are lower than humans.


my favorite dylan song (and there are many) is 'sad eyed lady of the lowlands'. on the whole, it certainly doesn't paint a clear picture, to say the least (not in the same way 'everybody must get stoned' does), but it does string together some tremendous images and combinations of words that rival the experience of the most vividly inexplicable dreams. on many occassions, i have spent hours listening to that song, over and over again. bob dylan is more charlatan than prophet, in my view (which places him higher than prophet, in my scoring system).
I am curious, fusia, what do you get from 'Rainy Day Woman # 12&35' ("everybody must get stoned")?

IYY
November 13th, 2006, 10:59 PM
I am curious, fusia, what do you get from 'Rainy Day Woman # 12&35' ("everybody must get stoned")?

I'm not Fusia, but if I'll give my answer. I think this song is fairly obvious: it's saying how society (the government? the establishment?) finds a way to fsck you no matter what you do, where you are and who you are. Furthermore, Dylan states that while it may appear that this only happens to you, it really happens to every single person in this, and any other country.

And of course, the pun is that 'get stoned' also means to smoke Marijuana. This could be a simple joke, an implication that the way people are treated by the government is the same as being drugged (clouded judgement, hidden truth), or a suggestion that smoking Marijuana is a way to rebel against the establishment and see clearly.

Either way you look at it, the song revolves around a very clever pun. :)

23meg
November 15th, 2006, 06:06 AM
And "for the people and made by the people" ...that counts for my home-made techno too...It's all so personal and impossible to discuss...

Techno is folk by that definition, with which I agree. Today's "urban folk" may very well be electronic music made on crappy computers in small bedrooms.

But folk music in the way it's usually thought of, as Dylan himself keeps saying, had a very different and important role in the non-mediated past: at a time when the mass media didn't exist, people got to learn about things that happened in far away places via songs. If a new bridge was built, a song was made about that, and it spread. If a hundred people died in an accident, the same. Music had a documentary role. Hard to believe? But it's real, and it was one of the functions of the music. It still is in many places. It can also still be seen in the work of artists such as Springsteen and Dylan, as well as other artists influenced mainly by the folk music of their lands.

There's a story I remember reading about this song: in a gathering where Bob Dylan and Donovan were both present, Donovan being a young, relatively unknown singer then, Donovan started singing Mr. Tambourine Man, allegedly not knowing Dylan was in the room. Someone asked Dylan "that's nice, is this a folk song?", and Dylan responded "no, not yet".

Peepsalot
November 15th, 2006, 06:16 AM
Saying that techno is folk is really stretching it IMO. When I think of folk, I think a lot of it is about having a message or some form of storytelling. The majority of techno I have heard has no lyrics, which I makes it pretty hard to do such a thing.

Edit: Er, sorry I sort of replied without finishing reading your post. I think we are pretty much in agreeance.

fuscia
November 15th, 2006, 06:23 AM
I meant to mean, observing and discerning communication skills and tendencies were a difference.

clearly, humans are far better at discenring verbal communication (unless animals truly have figured out that there just isn't that much to say). other than that, i think animals are better observers of communication than humans. in my experience, most humans are at their most observant when listening to themselves talk.


I am curious, fuscia, what do you get from 'Rainy Day Woman # 12&35' ("everybody must get stoned")?

nothing in particular. my suspicion is that he was just 'winging' it.

rjwood
November 15th, 2006, 02:29 PM
I'm not Fusia, but if I'll give my answer. I think this song is fairly obvious: it's saying how society (the government? the establishment?) finds a way to fsck you no matter what you do, where you are and who you are. Furthermore, Dylan states that while it may appear that this only happens to you, it really happens to every single person in this, and any other country.

And of course, the pun is that 'get stoned' also means to smoke Marijuana. This could be a simple joke, an implication that the way people are treated by the government is the same as being drugged (clouded judgement, hidden truth), or a suggestion that smoking Marijuana is a way to rebel against the establishment and see clearly.

Either way you look at it, the song revolves around a very clever pun. :)
There is of course no correct or incorrect intrepretation to art. I realize my interpretations reveal more about me than about the artist or the art itself.

I can definatly appreciate your interpretation. It allows me to consider something new in the song. Thank you for that!;)

I get a bit of different image from this although similar to yours. The music suggests a party atmosphere and the idea of being stoned is there which gives many casual listeners the idea of drugs and getting high. I see the music as the abstract part of this piece. I see the lyrics as people stoning one another through insults or accusations, whether they be accurate or not. It's a stoning party rather than a party to get stoned as in high. People judging one another moralisticly is like a past time for far too many of us in american society. Throwing accusations about without being personnaly privy to the inside and out of a situation is common here. The media makes a nice living at it. The GOP uses it to get their canidates elected..... and so on.

rjwood
November 15th, 2006, 03:10 PM
clearly, humans are far better at discenring verbal communication (unless animals truly have figured out that there just isn't that much to say). other than that, i think animals are better observers of communication than humans. in my experience, most humans are at their most observant when listening to themselves talk.
Clearly, from a phyco-analytical standpoint, I agree. However, in a casual sense, I'm not so sure. About humans that is.

Animals seem to me to be much more instinctive and therefore reactionary of things that move.