PDA

View Full Version : My thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)



IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 04:11 AM
Here is my 2 cents on Ubuntu... In the words of Linus Torvalds...


I personally just encourage people to switch to a different distribution.

This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Ubuntu is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don't use Ubuntu, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.

Please, just tell people to use a different distribution.

Modified by Steven Mattera (To direct toward Ubuntu Users)
Originally from Linus Torvald (Directed toward GNOME Users)Oh and to the people that use Ubuntu instead of Kubuntu and Xubuntu...


I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE.

This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.

Please, just tell people to use KDE.

LinusI fully 100% agree with Linus in the fact that making something simple because you think your users are idiots will only lead to idiots using it and thus because it's so simple will thus not do what it needs to do for the more advance users...

Ofcource this is just my 2 cents... Discuss!

TheMono
November 5th, 2006, 04:14 AM
Ok. Well, count me in the idiot camp. Maybe ignorance is bliss. Ah well.

Odd question though... If you don't use Ubuntu and dislike it that much, why are you here?

Sef
November 5th, 2006, 04:17 AM
Insulting others is not a way to acheive your ends.

TheMono
November 5th, 2006, 04:21 AM
Oh, and for references sake, when you say "Oh and to the people that use Ubuntu instead of Kubuntu and Xubuntu..."

- Xubuntu is an XFce distribution, and XFce is based on GNOME. Are you suggesting that XFce is acceptable where GNOME is not, or just poorly researched?

viper
November 5th, 2006, 04:22 AM
Here is my 2 cents on Ubuntu... In the words of Linus Torvalds...



Oh and to the people that use Ubuntu instead of Kubuntu and Xubuntu...



I fully 100% agree with Linus in the fact that making something simple because you think your users are idiots will only lead to idiots using it and thus because it's so simple will thus not do what it needs to do for the more advance users...

Ofcource this is just my 2 cents... Discuss!

Any idea where the rest of this transcript is ?

catlett
November 5th, 2006, 04:24 AM
Just to set the record straight, Linus did not direct his comments to Ubuntu. Someone put ubuntu in where linus was talking about gnome. Ubuntu uses gnome but ubuntu wasn't being attacked by LInus.
The fact that Linus doesn't like the gnome devs is old news. This excerpt comes from Linus' aggravation with gnome not having an "advanced" tab on their printing dialogue. Gnome said it was trying to keep it's interface simple so as not to confuse the user.What you read above was Linus' response. Linus is passionsate and opinnionated and his remarks can easily be taken out of context.

Ubuntu is the rising star of linux distributions and is the distro of choice for new users. There is alot of jealousy towards Ubuntu because of this but creating a false statement by Torvald's is a new low.

Since the OP did not care to direct people to the correct quote, I will. (Now that I read it, my 'para-phrasing wasn't 100% accurate either)
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html

IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 04:26 AM
Ok. Well, count me in the idiot camp. Maybe ignorance is bliss. Ah well.

Odd question though... If you don't use Ubuntu and dislike it that much, why are you here?

Because I tried it out and of course could not get anything to work with Kubuntu Edgy which ran Xorg 7.1 which ATI Doesn't support with my Video Card (Mobility Radeon x600) So I went to Kubuntu Dapper Drake which to my surprise didn't even come with GCC... What kind of Distribution doesn't come with GCC... Then the fact that the Kernel comes with Broadcom Drivers built in which it insists on using even though it's not the right driver. I even Blacklisted the module and try to use Ndiswrapper and it still wouldn't come up... Then the whole APT System is also just so dirty... Emerge did something right... One main repository if you want another repository download it to your computer and keep it separate from the main repository on your computer.

TheMono
November 5th, 2006, 04:28 AM
The original post does say that it has been modified and was originally aimed at GNOME, albeit not in the most obvious way.

PatrickMay16
November 5th, 2006, 04:30 AM
I use GNOME. Though the over-simpleness is a bit over the top at some parts (like gnome-screensaver. What the hell is that? It's got no advances options whatsoever. Awfully crippled) it works nicely enough, and I don't have to worry about acidentally moving some toolbar and not remembering the way it was before, etc, which is what annoys me the most about KDE applications.

GNOME is good. If it could just have a little more advanced options added into the oversimplified parts, then it'd be the best.

TheMono
November 5th, 2006, 04:34 AM
Because I tried it out and of course could not get anything to work with Kubuntu Edgy which ran Xorg 7.1 which ATI Doesn't support with my Video Card (Mobility Radeon x600) So I went to Kubuntu Dapper Drake which to my surprise didn't even come with GCC... What kind of Distribution doesn't come with GCC... Then the fact that the Kernel comes with Broadcom Drivers built in which it insists on using even though it's not the right driver. I even Blacklisted the module and try to use Ndiswrapper and it still wouldn't come up... Then the whole APT System is also just so dirty... Emerge did something right... One main repository if you want another repository download it to your computer and keep it separate from the main repository on your computer.

I'm sorry, that was kind of unintelligible, so please forgive me if my reply does not address your points. It is funny that you had problems with an x600, as I'm running the same (albeit on Ubuntu with GNOME).

As far as what kind of distribution does not come with GCC, does "that one" suffice as an answer?

I'm unsure as to what was happening with your Broadcom drivers, sorry.

And as for comparing APT to Portage, I'm not sure what your complaint is - it is dirty? What does that mean?

bukwirm
November 5th, 2006, 04:39 AM
If you think gnome is too simple, you could always install Ubuntu server, then install and use whatever GUI you want. That's what I did.

fuscia
November 5th, 2006, 04:43 AM
definitely. if you suddenly have to come up with a six digit prime number or mom is going to toss you out of her basement, ubuntu is not for you.

viper
November 5th, 2006, 04:46 AM
definitely. if you suddenly have to come up with a six digit prime number or mom is going to toss you out of her basement, ubuntu is not for you.

:D well said

IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 04:50 AM
Just to set the record straight, Linus did not direct his comments to Ubuntu. Someone put ubuntu in where linus was talking about gnome. Ubuntu uses gnome but ubuntu wasn't being attacked by LInus.
The fact that Linus doesn't like the gnome devs is old news. This excerpt comes from Linus' aggravation with gnome not having an "advanced" tab on their printing dialogue. Gnome said it was trying to keep it's interface simple so as not to confuse the user.What you read above was Linus' response. Linus is passionsate and opinnionated and his remarks can easily be taken out of context.

Ubuntu is the rising star of linux distributions and is the distro of choice for new users. There is alot of jealousy towards Ubuntu because of this but creating a false statement by Torvald's is a new low.

Ok, first off learn to read because I specifically put that I modified Linus's Original Quote and I would never create a false statement by Torvald's I just simply took his ideas of Gnome and placed them into (Ku/Xu/U)buntu.


Since the OP did not care to direct people to the correct quote, I will. (Now that I read it, my 'para-phrasing wasn't 100% accurate either)
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html

My Original Post did state the original Quote unedited... Once again learn to read.


The original post does say that it has been modified and was originally aimed at GNOME, albeit not in the most obvious way.

Better?


I use GNOME. Though the over-simpleness is a bit over the top at some parts (like gnome-screensaver. What the hell is that? It's got no advances options whatsoever. Awfully crippled) it works nicely enough, and I don't have to worry about acidentally moving some toolbar and not remembering the way it was before, etc, which is what annoys me the most about KDE applications.

GNOME is good. If it could just have a little more advanced options added into the oversimplified parts, then it'd be the best.

Gnome is to fit much like Windows... In which you can't edit as much as KDE where you can do many different things with the tool bars... Also KDE isn't afraid of confusing the user they assume the user will learn.


I'm sorry, that was kind of unintelligible, so please forgive me if my reply does not address your points. It is funny that you had problems with an x600, as I'm running the same (albeit on Ubuntu with GNOME).

As far as what kind of distribution does not come with GCC, does "that one" suffice as an answer?

I'm unsure as to what was happening with your Broadcom drivers, sorry.

And as for comparing APT to Portage, I'm not sure what your complaint is - it is dirty? What does that mean?

First off a Mobility x600 or just a Radeon x600?

Second... APT manages their Repository as if all of the repositories are one... Like when you access the internet for the list and they all get put into one main directory... Unlike Portage where if I have a Repository for XGL/Compiz I make a directory checkout the Repository through CVS and simply go into my make.conf and tell portage to look in that directory for a Repository. It feels just much cleaner... Also It's much cleaner because Portage has one and only one main Repository unlike APT where you have Universe Repository and source Repository and etc...


definitely. if you suddenly have to come up with a six digit prime number or mom is going to toss you out of her basement, ubuntu is not for you.

Then that is a problem and they failed at making Ubuntu friendly for all...

TheMono
November 5th, 2006, 04:54 AM
It's a mobility x600 on my flatmates compaq laptop.

Now, I have to be honest, I'm not the most well informed on techincal matters. However, from my experiences with Gentoo and Ubuntu, I know that I can use APT easily, but not Portage as easily.

Further, having extra repositories is surely a good thing? Allowing you access to more software than is in the central repository?

Another thing I personally dislike about Portage is the speed compared to APT - although this may only be an issue due to my circa 1237AD Laptop.

IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 04:58 AM
It's a mobility x600 on my flatmates compaq laptop.

Now, I have to be honest, I'm not the most well informed on techincal matters. However, from my experiences with Gentoo and Ubuntu, I know that I can use APT easily, but not Portage as easily.

Further, having extra repositories is surely a good thing? Allowing you access to more software than is in the central repository?

Another thing I personally dislike about Portage is the speed compared to APT - although this may only be an issue due to my circa 1237AD Laptop.

You are right in the fact that installing through APT is faster but that is due to it installing Binaries instead of building from Source like Portage does... In the long run Portage is faster because you will see Performance in your programs because they are built for your computer specifically...

TheMono
November 5th, 2006, 04:59 AM
Oh, and in response to failing to make Ubuntu friendly for all, it doesn't need to be. The market that wish to compile all their software themselves and generate six digit primes are probably perfectly well served by Gentoo. That's not Ubuntu's target. It's equally reasonable for me to complain that Gentoo isn't as easy to set up as Ubuntu, therefore it is not friendly for all. It's not Gentoo's problem, it is mine.

IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 05:06 AM
Oh, and in response to failing to make Ubuntu friendly for all, it doesn't need to be. The market that wish to compile all their software themselves and generate six digit primes are probably perfectly well served by Gentoo. That's not Ubuntu's target. It's equally reasonable for me to complain that Gentoo isn't as easy to set up as Ubuntu, therefore it is not friendly for all. It's not Gentoo's problem, it is mine.


The Ubuntu community is built on the ideas enshrined in the Ubuntu Philosophy: that software should be available free of charge, that software tools should be usable by people in their local language and despite any disabilities, and that people should have the freedom to customize and alter their software in whatever way they see fit.

From what this sounds like... Their goal is to make a Linux Distribution usable by all. and to be friendly to all.

Also just to mention Gentoo serves me fine and I can't generate a 6 digit Prime and I don't live in my mother's basement... Yes, I live with my parents, but it's through law seeing that I'm 16...

23meg
November 5th, 2006, 05:17 AM
From what this sounds like... Their goal is to make a Linux Distribution usable by all. and to be friendly to all.

It isn't. Ubuntu does aim for a wide, heterogenous audience, but not "all".

The day that an OS that's "usable by all and friendly to all" comes out will be the day that Levis makes a pair of jeans that fits all.

If you find Ubuntu / GNOME unsuited to your purposes, don't use them, simple as that.

PatrickMay16
November 5th, 2006, 05:20 AM
So, Ichigo, you don't like GNOME and you encourag people to switch from GNOME to other stuff, right?

I like GNOME pretty much as it is (though a little more advanced options would be nice), and I'd prefer to stick with GNOME. What do you say to that?

K.Mandla
November 5th, 2006, 05:21 AM
I'm sufficiently confused by this entire business.

IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 05:23 AM
If you find Ubuntu / GNOME unsuited to your purposes, don't use them, simple as that.

I'm not using them anymore I prefer Gentoo/KDE... but I was just voicing my opinion which is the point of this thread it's in the Title... "My thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)" Not "What is your thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)" or "What are their thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)" but "My thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)"

IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 05:25 AM
So, Ichigo, you don't like GNOME and you encourag people to switch from GNOME to other stuff, right?

I like GNOME pretty much as it is (though a little more advanced options would be nice), and I'd prefer to stick with GNOME. What do you say to that?

I say go for it... What ever floats your boat I just recommend KDE...

I meant to edit my last post sorry for the double port.

maniacmusician
November 5th, 2006, 05:25 AM
From what this sounds like... Their goal is to make a Linux Distribution usable by all. and to be friendly to all.

Also just to mention Gentoo serves me fine and I can't generate a 6 digit Prime and I don't live in my mother's basement... Yes, I live with my parents, but it's through law seeing that I'm 16...
actually, you can get legally emancipated and be happily on your way.

Seriously, don't we have enough whining threads? It's obvious that Ubuntu is not for everyone. That's the marketing scheme, yes, but anyone who takes it literally and expects to stick has got to have the IQ of a rock.

If there's something you don't like, either help fix it, customize it for yourself, or go use another distribution. it's not rocket science.

IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 05:33 AM
Seriously, don't we have enough whining threads? It's obvious that Ubuntu is not for everyone. That's the marketing scheme, yes, but anyone who takes it literally and expects to stick has got to have the IQ of a rock.

If there's something you don't like, either help fix it, customize it for yourself, or go use another distribution. it's not rocket science.

1. This is General Discussion a place in which you would Discuss generally anything falling under a broad range of subjects... This believe it or not falls under that broad range of subjects...

2.I did go to another distribution... I wanted to state the fact that I was deeply disappointed in this distribution and wanted to discuss about it to others... Thanks for your concern.

23meg
November 5th, 2006, 05:39 AM
I'm not using them anymore I prefer Gentoo/KDE... but I was just voicing my opinion which is the point of this thread it's in the Title... "My thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)" Not "What is your thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)" or "What are their thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)" but "My thoughts on (Ku/Xu/U)buntu... (In the words of Linus Torvalds)"
Cool, now that we know your opinions, you can go and happily use Gentoo/KDE. You don't look like you have any willingness to help improve Ubuntu/GNOME, to make them steer in the direction you want them to go, so it's perfectly OK with everyone here that you use whatever else suits you.

This thread has no potential to serve any purpose to Ubuntu. Let's all stop posting.

kerry_s
November 5th, 2006, 05:46 AM
I understand, it didn't work for you and your mad. Get over it and move on. Try Mepis, gNewSense, beatrix or another ubuntu based distro, maybe one of those will work. If not there are hundreds of linux distro's out there, i'm sure you can get your fix. Remember it's not the distro or the developers fault that stuff don't work, it's "Your" fault for buying a computer with poor linux compatiabilty to run linux.

IchigoKurosaki
November 5th, 2006, 05:46 AM
Cool, now that we know your opinions, you can go and happily use Gentoo/KDE. You don't look like you have any willingness to help improve Ubuntu/GNOME, to make them steer in the direction you want them to go, so it's perfectly OK with everyone here that you use whatever else suits you.

This thread has no potential to serve any purpose to Ubuntu. Let's all stop posting.

I gave what i wanted to help (Ku/Xu/U)buntu and that was my advice...


I personally just encourage people to switch to a different distribution.

This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Ubuntu is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don't use Ubuntu, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.

Please, just tell people to use a different distribution.
Modified by Steven Mattera (To direct toward Ubuntu Users)
Originally from Linus Torvald (Directed toward GNOME Users)

Please continue posting if you to would like contribute to Ubuntu being usable to all and friendly to all or if you think I'm wrong in my thinking please feel free to reply and I will explain my reasoning to you..

John.Michael.Kane
November 5th, 2006, 05:46 AM
IchigoKurosaki your feelings have been voiced.

This thread now only serves one purpose,and that's to start a flame war.

Thread Closed..