Microsoft running SUSE linux on Desktop - we need GPLv3

[phi1ip]

Seen the news guys. this is bad for open source. people that were going to dump microsoft may now "migrate" meaning they will still buy Vista. a percentage at least.

Also suse will now not genuinely be contributing to open source as this will conflict with microsoft.

same situation with oracle trying to leech off redhat.

when openSUSE community goes to zero surely SUSE enterprise edition will merely be the UBUNTU release with "Find and replace" on UBUNTU, released one week later.

GPL v3 will stop this kind of rot. or am i wrong in this picture?

[cunawarit]

Why is it bad for open source? As far as I can gather SUSE is already the sort of distro that Microsoft obsessed managers already feel comfortable with purchasing for their more Linux minded staff.

Isn't it possible that it could help promote Linux in the office environment? Won't some managers feel even more comfortable with SUSE because they can get support from Microsoft?

PS: As for ORACLE Unbreakable Linux... That's SOOOOOOooooo dirty!!!! [-(

[shining]

Isn't it possible that it could help promote Linux in the office environment? Won't some managers feel even more comfortable with SUSE because they can get support from Microsoft?


So Microsoft is actually helping people to stop using their products?

[jpeddicord]

I don't know about this whole Microsoft/Novell thing, I think a buyout may be planned.

[darkhatter]

Thanks for posting a article....Microsoft has Red Hat, Suse, and Slackware test labs. I think you need to relax, If Microsoft is using sled then I'm happy. That means Novell gets money, which then leads to more improvements for openSuse

[darkhatter]

I just went to www.novell.com.....I'm sure novell is still going to release everything GPL so all this is going to bring is better support (I hope)

http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/

[hizaguchi]

First of all, let's get everybody on the same page with a link to the article. (http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116249026689311557-helTbrheLKgbaJ5iO5z40ZFCiOs_20061109.html?mod=blog s)

It's not that they're running SLED, it's that they're forming a partnership with Novell to make it easier for Windows users to run Linux and for Linux users to run Windows.

I figure this is one of 2 things. It's either the old "embrace, extend, extinguish" approach, or it's evidence that Microsoft recognizes their slipping grip on the OS market and is looking for a way to embed itself deeply within the next big thing. Either is likely to be very good for Linux in the short term, thanks to increased support and decreased intentional incompatibility. But both are likely to be very bad for Linux in the long run, as Microsoft's need for a monopoly to maintain their absurd profit margins rules out any possibility of them peacefully coexisting with competitors.

edit: sorry darkhatter, you posted your link while I was typing. :)

[darkhatter]

my konqueror crashed in mid-post, I'm really starting hate Edgy...
they have a video on the Novell site so I'll watch that. I really think Microsoft is accepting that Linux isn't going anywhere. Since the new guy replaced Bill there has been some good changes, mainly opendocument support in Office

[igknighted]

They mentioned something about document format as well as microsoft opening some formats... does this mean that we may see windows media, ms office, etc. support native on linux (or suse at least?)

[Polygon]

microsoft is supposedly creating an open source plugin for ms office that can make it so that office and open/save doucments in the opendocument specification... but you have to install it yourself and it does not come preinstalled... so its not really helping much... but this might change with this.

[Bloodfen Razormaw]

They mentioned something about document format as well as microsoft opening some formats... does this mean that we may see windows media, ms office, etc. support native on linux (or suse at least?)
Microsoft published the open specification for the Office 2007 formats already, and Windows Media has been an open specification for a very long time now. Nothing new here.

[kuja]

I have a strange feeling that somebody is going to get stabbed in the back over this, particularly over the "patent protection agreement". Hint: It won't be Microshaft.

[spd106]

Novell have put up an FAQ http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq.html

To me it seemed almost inevitable that that MS would find someway to cosy up to the linux community. Hey we all know what it can achieve.

I just hope the benefits can be passed on. All this talk of patents as protection is rather worrying.

[phi1ip]

reply to Darkhatter:

Anything microsoft does is only about maximising their revenue. support for Open document format is only because governments around the world had begun mandating its use, hence mandating people to not use Microsoft office. Microsoft did not start to support it because it actually felt like providing something useful to consumers.

"Novell getting money being good" is an illusion. Microsoft's way of thinking goes like as follows, actual numbers will be different but just to illustrate the point.

If Novell stays on course they will make 1 billion USD in profit, they will do us 20 billion in damages from our lost sales of people switching to linux. Lets do this, lets do a partnership with Novell where they will make 2 billion dollars in profit - we pay them this amount, but their new course will only do us 5 billion dollars in damage.

So for a 2 billion dollar expense their sales are 15 billion higher. Novell is a winner and microsoft is a winner, don't blame either of them for doing it but lets not kid ourselves that open source will be better off, there will be less open source users than there would have been.

Microsoft cannot stop open source but they can slow adoption down and that is what they are doing here. Slowing down the adoption means more profit for micro$oft.

I remember when mexico was considering going linux, microsoft rushed their to give them 100 million dollars for AIDS treatment if they went with microsft instead. Mexico received 100 million free but of course did 2 billion damage(or who knows how much) to their economy by missing an opportunity. the politician later admitted it was a big mistake on television, but he was deceived at time by thinking about free help for sick people. the contempt of microsoft is unbelievable.

stop supporting openSUSE this is for sure so the farce ends quicker!

[Swab]

The way I see it..


Novell customers get protection from any Patent issues.
Managers previously wary of Linux feel happier to migrate to Suse.
Suse becomes dominant Linux distro.
Microsoft buys Novell.


Hope I am wrong.

[darkhatter]

stop supporting openSUSE this is for sure so the farce ends quicker!

I was ok with everything till this Line, I'm a little confused with what this line is suppose to mean

[phi1ip]

we need GPL v3

the oracle/redhad fiasco and the microsoft/novell fiaso means we need GPL v3

IMHO

[darkhatter]

would GPL v3 help this...

[Swab]

would GPL v3 help this...

No.

[phi1ip]

stop supporting openSUSE:

means support REDHAT/UBUNTU/linspire/others with your open souce bug fix's and purchase of books and paid support etc.....

[Rhapsody]

The way I see it..


Novell customers get protection from any Patent issues.
Managers previously wary of Linux feel happier to migrate to Suse.
Suse becomes dominant Linux distro.
Microsoft buys Novell.


Hope I am wrong.

That certainly sounds a lot like something Microsoft would be willing to do. Maybe they're starting to get a bit desperate to kill off Linux entirely while they still can.

[darkhatter]

has Novell done anything wrong?....sure they have agreement with Microsoft but they haven't done anything that wrong with that. When something happens I'll stop supporting them

[phi1ip]

>Quote:
>Originally Posted by darkhatter View Post
>would GPL v3 help this...
>No.

I read a response from Linus torvalds saying one of the reasons he thought GPL v3 was unreasonable was that a company may invalidate its entire patent portfolio by simply posting GPLv3 source code on its website.

I have not entirely read GPLv3 or analysed it but surely if this was one of Linus torvalds concerns then surely Oracle/Micro$oft would not touch it with a barge pole.

the only reason for these Oracle statements and microsoft partnerships is anti-competitive. GPLv3 will stop these practices.

surely his will help. yes?

[Swab]

>Quote:
>Originally Posted by darkhatter View Post
>would GPL v3 help this...
>No.

I read a response from Linus torvalds saying one of the reasons he thought GPL v3 was unreasonable was that a company may invalidate its entire patent portfolio by simply posting GPLv3 source code on its website.

I have not entirely read GPLv3 or analysed it but surely if this was one of Linus torvalds concerns then surely Oracle/Micro$oft would not touch it with a barge pole.

the only reason for these Oracle statements and microsoft partnerships is anti-competitive. GPLv3 will stop these practices.

surely his will help. yes?

Right... and IBM, Redhat, HP, and any other commercial interest won't want anything to do with it either.

[darkhatter]

would GPLv3 hurt Canonical too?

[phi1ip]

What Novell is attempting to do is not "wrong". it is good for Novell profitability as long as the open souce community does not abandom them.

BUT, it is bad for the open souce community for the reasons i stated earlier. less people completly dumping microsoft because that platform will be a bit more useful with this deal, ASSUMING open source people do not dump them like a sack of potatoes.

[jdq997]

People need to stop worrying so much about the so called evils of Microsoft, the fact that most computer users use their products, and the fact that (gasp!) some people write (or invest in the creation of) software to make money and want to protect the fruits of their labor (or investments). Open source is an excellent software model, I use Ubuntu 100% of the time because it is a cleaner less troublesome experience. If more people figure that out more people will switch.

Focusing on marketing and making Ubuntu (and Linux in general) better is the way to make it more competitive. Following the nutty ideology of the Debian community (not wanting to use a proprietary LOGO) or ending support of Suse because Novell entered into what sounds like a perfectly reasonable partnership with Microsoft is immature and counterproductive and it is this kind of mentality that will keep Linux marginalized.

- Jason

[darkhatter]

I don't see why the Open source community would leave Suse over this.

[phi1ip]

bad for Canonical? don't know, do you have knowledge that it would?

does canonical have patent porfolios it wishes to excericise...didn't seem in line with the ubuntu philosophy does it? especially the way they do not distribute non-free codecs.

IBM supported linux for their own stock market performance, good for them, a marriage of convenience. similarily we(open source) benefited from their support, once we have critical mass of people, we do not need to continue the marriage of convenience just as they would not if it does not give them advantage.

[darkhatter]

I must make up more then half of the post in this thread, I'm such a fan-boy lol

I don't think this is going to do anything bad, but it is going to improve .doc support in Linux which I consider a step back

[hizaguchi]

Ah, I read the FAQ and now I get it. Microsoft and Novell have both been getting spanked by VMware for virtualization, and that looks to be the main idea in this new collaboration. Working together to improve virtualization means that development will be faster, to catch up to VMware, and also that Linux will run in Windows and Windows will run in Linux better than otherwise possible because developers on both ends will be cooperating to meet in the middle. This is great news for Microsoft, because it means that even if you don't run their OS primarily, you can run it effortlessly and efficiently with virtualization and still pay them for a license. Plus, since it further ensures that Windows is able to run everywhere (PCs, Macs, and even inside open source environments), there is a larger market for their big money maker, Microsoft Office.

[DoctorMO]

Focusing on marketing and making Ubuntu (and Linux in general) better is the way to make it more competitive. Following the nutty ideology of the Debian community (not wanting to use a proprietary LOGO) or ending support of Suse because Novell entered into what sounds like a perfectly reasonable partnership with Microsoft is immature and counterproductive and it is this kind of mentality that will keep Linux marginalized.

Be careful what you say, it's people who thought 'perfectly reasonable' propritory code was morraly wrong (you rememeber what morals are right?) who started the ball rolling and who have been dedicating the most time into all the various projects of the FOSS world. we have to watch we don't end up eating our perfectly reasonable words for breakfast later on.

[phi1ip]

jason:

the general thrust of my comments is not begrudging people making money from software, whether that be supporting/modifying/enhancing free software or even writing proprietry software. If people write proprietry software and make megabucks from proprietry software good for them. The general thrust of my comments is not supporting companies that engage in anti-competive behaviour. definition: they did not fight fair and square to gain their market domination and the benefits that go with that.

So when a company engages in a partnership that helps maintain that market domination unfairly gained in the first place, i.e. unfairly earnt wealth(M$), then do not support that partnership. This would mean not supporting Novell.

your comments about "immature and counterproductive" is not true.
my comments are to support companies which best support open source, novells actions are good for novell shareholders but not good for open source adoption. Novell's percentage share of the linux market will get better, but the linux market share of operating systems as a whole will not be as high as it would have been without the deal.

So if we do not support Novell, the windows platform will have a less useful linux distribution on it and hence windows will be less useful and hence people will go ahead and dump it as fast as they were going to.

[darkhatter]

jason:

the general thrust of my comments is not begrudging people making money from software, whether that be supporting/modifying/enhancing free software or even writing proprietry software. If people write proprietry software and make megabucks from proprietry software good for them. The general thrust of my comments is not supporting companies that engage in anti-competive behaviour. definition: they did not fight fair and square to gain their market domination and the benefits that go with that.

So when a company engages in a partnership that helps maintain that market domination unfairly gained in the first place, i.e. unfairly earnt wealth(M$), then do not support that partnership. This would mean not supporting Novell.

your comments about "immature and counterproductive" is not true.
my comments are to support companies which best support open source, novells actions are good for novell shareholders but not good for open source adoption. Novell's percentage share of the linux market will get better, but the linux market share of operating systems as a whole will not be as high as it would have been without the deal.

So if we do not support Novell, the windows platform will have a less useful linux distribution on it and hence windows will be less useful and hence people will go ahead and dump it as fast as they were going to.

I'm not sure how this is going to reduce the Linux share in the end, can some one explain this to me in Human Language

[phi1ip]

darkhatter:

all your comments are "Novell/microsoft are great" and you cast doubt on "microsoft/novell are bad" posts without giving facts to support those negative or implied negaive assertations. e.g. "i'm not sure" "is it" etc etc.

Have a second look at all your posts.

Can you tell me which company you work for, I am curious.

[darkhatter]

I'm in high school, but I'm kind of a Suse fan-boy. I would rather see the good then the bad.

[Senak^2]

You guys might be interested in reading this article on the Seattle Times: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003338593_webmsnovell02.html

I have mixed thoughts about this... Is this a sign of the new Microsoft everyone has been talking about or are they still up to their nasty tricks?

"To encourage more companies to embrace Novell's open-source platform, Microsoft has pledged not to assert its patent rights over any of its technology that may be blended with Suse Linux."

So what's the catch?

[darkhatter]

You guys might be interested in reading this article on the Seattle Times: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003338593_webmsnovell02.html

I have mixed thoughts about this... Is this a sign of the new Microsoft everyone has been talking about or are they still up to their nasty tricks?

"To encourage more companies to embrace Novell's open-source platform, Microsoft has pledged not to assert its patent rights over any of its technology that may be blended with Suse Linux."

So what's the catch?

they get to use all the Novell patents

[misha680]

Maybe I'm thinking about this too simply, but it seems like there are two possibilities:

1) things will be good for linux. We'll be able to better read and write MS Office documents in OpenOffice, which will make linux more attractive to people who use Windows for compatibility reasons (because, let's face it, most people in the world use MS Office and not Open Office, and in many industries MS Office documents are standard). Perhaps other good things.

2) The "bad" alternative. Let's say Microsoft invests all this money in Novell, Novell gets better, then Microsoft buys Novell and releases Microsoft Linux. What exactly is so bad about this scenario? If I understand the GPL correctly, they will still have to release the source code to all the GPLed parts. Basically, this means that they will be putting (some version of) Linux into people's hands, which will make them more familiar with Linux, Linux will become more accepted among casual computer users, and I bet when they know that there is a very nice, free version like Ubuntu they will be interested in using it. In fact, I could see two tiers of linux users being created, perhaps the really computer illiterate users who will use Microsoft Linux (and yes, I admit, this will compete with "new user" distributions like Linspire, so it would be unfair to linspire) and then the more tech savvy users who will use distros like Ubuntu. It seems like although people might object to this alternative on an ideological level, on a pragmatic level any move which will bring Microsoft products closer to Linux will increase compatibility and thus increase willingness of people to switch to distros like Ubuntu.

Anyhow, I don't mean to start a flame war or anything. I know people are opposed to Microsoft on ideological reasons, and I think there are fair reasons to be so, but practically speaking I feel like what's going to determine whether Microsoft is able to quash Linux is simply the GPL, and from what I understand the GPL has been tested in courts (?) and is valid, so Microsoft won't be able to somehow "close" Linux. And other than that, anything they do with Linux will only make Microsoft products more compatible with linux and will make it easier for people who rely on such compatibility (probably the majority of people, at least in the states) to switch to Linux.

Misha

p.s. I feel like the reason Microsoft's conquer strategy worked in the past is because with a company all you have to do is drive them out of business or buy them and you destroy their product. But with an open source product the source is always out there, anyone can work on it, even if Novell goes under tomorrow, OpenSUSE can still exist (if I understand correctly) and be worked on just fine. So I don't really see how they could possibly divide and conquer Linux.

p.p.s. I guess they could make a really crappy Microsoft Linux so people think Linux is crappy, but that would probably negatively reflect on Microsoft too.

[Animortis]

And what about the patent protection thing? Isn't the natural implication that Microsoft may be suing others in the future, but not Novell?

Is that because they are going to sue someone, or to put the FUD out there that those other products are less reliable than SuSE, since they may get you sued for using patent-violating software?

All in all this is actually very bad for Linux, IMHO.

[phi1ip]

I remember when microsoft had a deal with SUN on Java, microsoft deliberately delivered an inconpatible version of JAVA. there was microsoft java...

They will be trying to fork the code, as it stands there are various versions of linux. ubuntu/redhat/linspire etc and there are two interfaces KDE and gnome. as it was ubuntu was taking the lead so it may have standardised around ubuntu and the gnome interface.(ignoring embedded type linux disros for a moment.)

but where suse was losing market share as all the community was coming over to ubuntu that will not happen as fast. hence we will have at least ubuntu/gnome and suse/kde in the medium term. FORKED...............

and the other possibility that non SUSE linux distro's will get sued for patents........


hope ubuntu teams up with redhat etc for combined front....

[phi1ip]

Boycott Novell, spread the word.

Abandon Novell!!!!!

[maniacmusician]

Am I the only one that thinks this guy is a bigot?

[SunnyRabbiera]

No, as i think Novell's intentions are mostly good, Novell has been a big gun for FOSS in europe when that whole software patent thing was going on.

[rubengs]

Microsoft is selling protection, oops that sounds like the protection offered by mobsters, Groklaw has a good coverage of this agreement that protects Novell customers from some 'unspecified' patents (exactly which patents cover and why are related to Linux and other open source software?):

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061102175508403

Good bye openSuse.

[DoctorMO]

Software patents arn't even valid in the EU so their patent protection only spans those patent hot spots that have them.

SuSE sells to the European market so no big deal. try and sue, it'll be fun watching.

[OffHand]

Doesn't seem like this partnership does any good for the open source community.

http://technocrat.net/d/2006/11/2/9945

[SunnyRabbiera]

Good point DoctorMo, Novell really cant use any stuppid moves as i said it was a voice for open source during the great software patent panic.

[plb]

Seems kinda childish to say "abandon or boycott novell." They have done a lot of good work for the OSS community. They are the ones responsible for XGL and Compiz as well as a number of other things. And Suse just doesn't cater to the European market, I went for a job interview a couple weeks back for NYSE, and they are migrating over towards Suse.

[EdThaSlayer]

has Novell done anything wrong?....sure they have agreement with Microsoft but they haven't done anything that wrong with that. When something happens I'll stop supporting them

Being anti-M$.
They struck a deal with M$.:-k
So it is wrong

[misha680]

So what patents exactly is Linux violating? I would hope we are not violating any patents, as that could be a problem whether or not there is a Novell/Microsoft agreement...

Misha

[tribaal]

Good point Misha.
What exactly are thoses patents linux infriges on? Is it a second SCO case? :)
Without further argumentation this is just FUD

- trib'

[bonzodog]

People really cannot see the bigger picture here can they?

Don't you see what's happening?

Open Source Software is winning.

Like Mark Shuttleworth predicted, by 2010, trying to release closed software will be an exercise in total futility, Open source will the only recognised way to write software and gain users trust.
Microsoft will have to make a lot of headway in this direction - It has long been held that Vista will possibly be the last OS they release, and after Vista, they will go over to a services orientated system, and I suspect they will port MS Office to Linux with Novells help. They can see Linux being a dominant OS in the enterprise, in the near future.
Microsoft could actually end up driving Linux usage up, but in their own way.
What Steve Ballmer is saying is only half the story, he is a typical Money man, only wants to know how whatever move they make will benefit them financially. He understands little of the actual geekery, he always left that to Bill.

[ComplexNumber]

some more details here (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Story.aspx?guid=%7BEEF34C41%2D480F%2D4ABC%2D9D0F%2 DE5BC53E5C552%7D&siteid=).

[Mathiasdm]

People really cannot see the bigger picture here can they?

Don't you see what's happening?

Open Source Software is winning.

Like Mark Shuttleworth predicted, by 2010, trying to release closed software will be an exercise in total futility, Open source will the only recognised way to write software and gain users trust.
Microsoft will have to make a lot of headway in this direction - It has long been held that Vista will possibly be the last OS they release, and after Vista, they will go over to a services orientated system, and I suspect they will port MS Office to Linux with Novells help. They can see Linux being a dominant OS in the enterprise, in the near future.
Microsoft could actually end up driving Linux usage up, but in their own way.
What Steve Ballmer is saying is only half the story, he is a typical Money man, only wants to know how whatever move they make will benefit them financially. He understands little of the actual geekery, he always left that to Bill.
Why do people fail to see open and closed source can live together? It's possible to have different business models, you know.

I like open source, but I like closed source too. Both have their good and their bad sides.

[ComplexNumber]

Year 2512. Microsoft Makes Windows OS Open Source. Apocalypse…

“Exactly 506 years ago, the former CEO of our galactic company Microsoft, decided to make the first step towards making our famous Windows OS a part of the open source movement. Thank you Steve Ballmer!”http://www.playfuls.com/news_05017_Year_2512_Microsoft_Makes_Windows_OS_Op en_Source_Apocalypse.html

[nyinge]

So what patents exactly is Linux violating? I would hope we are not violating any patents, as that could be a problem whether or not there is a Novell/Microsoft agreement...

Misha
AFAIK, devs sometimes need to reverse-engineer some Microsoft's code for their software to work with MS's products, e.g. SAMBA, MONO, Openoffice (to open MS Office fileformats), etc. There could be others as well, but I'm not too sure.

[etelerro]

Is it me or does most people seem a bit to naive about this partnership?
Microsoft is making the promise not to sue anyone who uses SLED or SLES for the following 5 years.. Well that sounds nice you think..

The problem is, Microsoft isn't a very nice company, look at their history. They have always tried (and succeeded) to crush opponents in their race to monopolism.. But now they stand for one problem, the GNU / Linux, OSS community. Putting money into SCO didn't work to kill the community.. Now they have to have something else to crush with.

Let's face it, Novell is poor, they bought Ximian to get rich... It didn't work.. They bought SuSE.. Their making some money but not enough. If Novell went on on this road for a few more years, they would die a lonesome and slow death. But now Microsoft is coming to Novell with a deal they can't resist.. :-k a partnership with Microsoft could be good for the stocks, and a good way to crush Novells own opponents like Red-hat and Ubuntu with Microsofts patents, and Novell stays because it's the only company free of sues...

But like a said, Microsoft doesn't care about charity.. They want to have domination, so when Novell signed the "devil pact" with Microsoft they also signed a patent problem for the rest of the distro's. When the rest is down, Microsoft will drop Novell like a brick.

Well now you will say, Novell is doing right... They can't be wrong because they made XGL, compiz etc.etc.etc (So what, AIGLX is going to be the standard and nobody thanks Redhat for it)... But they don't give a damn about the SUSE community nor the GNU/Linux when they need money, did they ever share their pro-Microsoft idea's with the community and did they held a petition? I don't think so...

So let me say, brace for difficult times.... But there is one detail which Novell underestimated.. And that is the power of the GPL license and especially rule 7! ;)

So I say, let's stand together, put a ban on Novell and watch them crawl back with two big teeth marks in their neck....

Edit: and for the proof of the problems we now have thanks to Novell: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2050848,00.asp

To show you who the good guys are: http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/
... I sure hope Mark Shuttleworth knows who the good guys are, and doesn't go talking with Balmer.

[ComplexNumber]

Is it me or does most people seem a bit to naive about this partnership?
Microsoft is making the promise not to sue anyone who uses SLED or SLES for the following 5 years.. Well that sounds nice you think..

The problem is, Microsoft isn't a very nice company, look at their history. They have always tried (and succeeded) to crush opponents in their race to monopolism.. But now they stand for one problem, the GNU / Linux, OSS community. Putting money into SCO didn't work to kill the community.. Now they have to have something else to crush with.

Let's face it, Novell is poor, they bought Ximian to get rich... It didn't work.. They bought SuSE.. Their making some money but not enough. If Novell went on on this road for a few more years, they would die a lonesome and slow death. But now Microsoft is coming to Novell with a deal they can't resist.. :-k a partnership with Microsoft could be good for the stocks, and a good way to crush Novells own opponents like Red-hat and Ubuntu with Microsofts patents, and Novell stays because it's the only company free of sues...

But like a said, Microsoft doesn't care about charity.. They want to have domination, so when Novell signed the "devil pact" with Microsoft they also signed a patent problem for the rest of the distro's. When the rest is down, Microsoft will drop Novell like a brick.

Well now you will say, Novell is doing right... They can't be wrong because they made XGL, compiz etc.etc.etc (So what, AIGLX is going to be the standard and nobody thanks Redhat for it)... But they don't give a damn about the SUSE community nor the GNU/Linux when they need money, did they ever share their pro-Microsoft idea's with the community and did they held a petition? I don't think so...

So let me say, brace for difficult times.... But there is one detail which Novell underestimated.. And that is the power of the GPL license and especially rule 7! ;)

So I say, let's stand together, put a ban on Novell and watch them crawl back with two big teeth marks in their neck....

Edit: and for the proof of the problems we now have thanks to Novell: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2050848,00.asp

To show you who the good guys are: http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/
... I sure hope Mark Shuttleworth knows who the good guys are, and doesn't go talking with Balmer.
well, lets get all the facts about the small print first before making assumptions.

for me, there is only one true linux distro - redhat/fedora.

[etelerro]

well, lets get all the facts about the small print first before making assumptions.

for me, there is only one true linux distro - redhat/fedora.

Sorry for making the assumptions (I think their more then that), but you have to agree, this isn't going to be good..

[darkhatter]

Is it me or does most people seem a bit to naive about this partnership?
Microsoft is making the promise not to sue anyone who uses SLED or SLES for the following 5 years.. Well that sounds nice you think..

The problem is, Microsoft isn't a very nice company, look at their history. They have always tried (and succeeded) to crush opponents in their race to monopolism.. But now they stand for one problem, the GNU / Linux, OSS community. Putting money into SCO didn't work to kill the community.. Now they have to have something else to crush with.

Let's face it, Novell is poor, they bought Ximian to get rich... It didn't work.. They bought SuSE.. Their making some money but not enough. If Novell went on on this road for a few more years, they would die a lonesome and slow death. But now Microsoft is coming to Novell with a deal they can't resist.. :-k a partnership with Microsoft could be good for the stocks, and a good way to crush Novells own opponents like Red-hat and Ubuntu with Microsofts patents, and Novell stays because it's the only company free of sues...

But like a said, Microsoft doesn't care about charity.. They want to have domination, so when Novell signed the "devil pact" with Microsoft they also signed a patent problem for the rest of the distro's. When the rest is down, Microsoft will drop Novell like a brick.

Well now you will say, Novell is doing right... They can't be wrong because they made XGL, compiz etc.etc.etc (So what, AIGLX is going to be the standard and nobody thanks Redhat for it)... But they don't give a damn about the SUSE community nor the GNU/Linux when they need money, did they ever share their pro-Microsoft idea's with the community and did they held a petition? I don't think so...

So let me say, brace for difficult times.... But there is one detail which Novell underestimated.. And that is the power of the GPL license and especially rule 7! ;)

So I say, let's stand together, put a ban on Novell and watch them crawl back with two big teeth marks in their neck....

Edit: and for the proof of the problems we now have thanks to Novell: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2050848,00.asp

To show you who the good guys are: http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/
... I sure hope Mark Shuttleworth knows who the good guys are, and doesn't go talking with Balmer.

mistake one - Novell went to Microsoft, most people are angry because its Microsoft

[OffHand]

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2050848,00.asp

Scary ****. Threaten people with lawsuits.

[ComplexNumber]

Sorry for making the assumptions (I think their more then that), but you have to agree, this isn't going to be good..
it may not be as bad as people think. on the other hand, it may not be as good as some people think. it may not mean anything significnt at all.
the news has only just been published, so lets see if there is any further details that come to light.

[etelerro]

mistake one - Novell went to Microsoft, most people are angry because its Microsoft

Novell didn't go to Microsoft, nor did Microsoft go to Novell.. They threatened each other with patent sues, and then they came up with this partnership...

[Pixel]

This could mean more tightly integrated Novell/NetWare/Groupwise with Windows, which would be a great thing for many businesses that run mixed OS's like ours.

It could go many ways, very good, very bad, or no change.

[Josey]

Microsoft COO Lashes Out At Linux, Google
Microsoft will go after Google, Novell, Red Hat, IBM

By Paula Rooney, CRN
5:23 PM EDT Thu. Jul. 13, 2006
Microsoft Chief Operating Officer Kevin Turner had some strong words for Google and Linux vendors looking to stomp on the software dynasty.
"We're not going to let Google win in the enterprise space. That's our house, our market space," said the 40-year-old Turner, the former Wal-Mart CIO whose tough talk elicited cheers from hundreds of Microsoft partners gathered for the closing keynote at Microsoft's partner conference Thursday in Boston.
"Then we've got Novell, Linux, Red Hat and other competitors. We're going after IBM and Google," Turner said. "We're going to win because we have a better solution, better total cost of ownership. We're going to get at the competition."

Here we see him say Novell is a competitor and that they are going to "get at the competition." Did their strategy really change that much in 4 months or is this partnership part of the plan of getting after them?

Full article (http://www.crn.com/sections/breakingnews/breakingnews.jhtml?articleId=190400046&cid=CRNBreakingNews)

[darkhatter]

if they had this secret deal going on, how did everyday people find out about these "secret". I highly doubt that any of these people who write these articles are really qualified to be saying any of this stuff so check you're sources. Most people are just mad cause its Novell signed with the "devil". I'm going to leave for a few days cool off and wait for more information, and I suggest that other people do the same, cause we are all starting to sound like idiots. Me being the most.

I'll see you guys on monday

[OffHand]

if they had this secret deal going on, how did everyday people find out about these "secret". I highly doubt that any of these people who write these articles are really qualified to be saying any of this stuff so check you're sources. Most people are just mad cause its Novell signed with the "devil". I'm going to leave for a few days cool off and wait for more information, and I suggest that other people do the same, cause we are all starting to sound like idiots. Me being the most.

I'll see you guys on monday

LOL, what about the link to an interview with steve balmer about this subject.
Plenty of food for thought.

[ComplexNumber]

Here we see him say Novell is a competitor and that they are going to "get at the competition." Did their strategy really change that much in 4 months or is this partnership part of the plan of getting after them?

Full article (http://www.crn.com/sections/breakingnews/breakingnews.jhtml?articleId=190400046&cid=CRNBreakingNews)
you may well be reading too much into it. ballmer has already said this in the last few days

Both Ballmer and Hovsepian stressed that the signing of the collaboration agreement won't reduce the competition between Microsoft and Novell or between the Windows and the Linux development communities.

Ballmer said developing greater interoperability between Windows and SUSE Linux will actually increase the intensity of competition because it will make it easier for Microsoft to sell its technology into enterprise data centers with a mix of Linux and Windows server technology.

Microsoft has joined into this Windows-Linux collaboration projects because "customers want it" and because "if we're interoperable we are going to take more business from Linux," he said.

Novell is cooperating for exactly the same reasons, Hovsepian said. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,2050848,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000616





The Microsoft-Novell deal could spell trouble for Red Hat. Ballmer said the partnership established Novell as his company's preferred partner in the Linux business, which could slow the momentum of Red Hat, Microsoft's toughest Linux competitor.
"Microsoft is willing to cooperate with Novell, especially if it takes Red Hat down a couple of pegs," said Laura DiDio , a senior analyst for Yankee Group in Boston. Red Hat is already facing a serious threat from database software maker Oracle Corp. which last week said it would begin selling service and support for Red Hat Linux at a much lower price than Red Hat charges.

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2006/11/03/microsoft_shifts_on_linux_aids_novell/

the deal is probably more about killing off red hat than anything else.

[Jussi Kukkonen]

ComplexNumber, you may be right about the Red Hat angle, but I wouldn't base it on an interview of Laura DiDio. She's famous for having some kind of an agenda concerning linux, the most embarrasing example being the commentary in the SCO saga (she was one of the few industry commentators who thought their claims were quite credible, IIRC).

[beameup]

Well Red Hat made a statement!

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS2989643188.html

[ComplexNumber]

Well Red Hat made a statement!

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS2989643188.html
taking a few extracts from that link.....................

Ballmer went on to say that other Linux vendors "are certainly welcome to get involved to quickly provide these covenants not to sue." Added Ballmer, "There are a lot of Linux distributors now. All of the sudden you have got Oracle in the game; you've got Red Hat in the game." ... "They all "will have to face the issues and help their customers" in the same way that Novell is, Ballmer said. that ever so nice mr ballmer. how generous of him. he's just creating fud. if one looks at the number of patents comparing ms with that free software patent pool, MS have more to lose and would come off worse. this is just ballmer fud. nothing more.




Red Hat, for one, is not interested. thats one of the things that i like about redhat/fedora. out of all linux distros, they are the ones that i trust the most. whilst not being perfect, i think they have the most integrity.

[nyinge]

So... What's Canonical's reactions/stance on this issue?

[AlphaMack]

This whole thing stinks of Microsoft's three E's. Yes, it's a move against Red Hat, but once MS succeeds at scaring everyone over to SuSE and possibly suing other distros into oblivion, they could easily turn back on Novell. SuSE will then join Billy Boy's fireplace next to WordPerfect, Netscape Navigator..........

If you can't innovate, litigate.

[DoctorMO]

Fortunatly the GPL means we'll still get to use GNU/Linux regard less of what the companies do we'll always be able to fix problems ourselves should worse come to the worse. slow us down as a movement perhaps but they can't stop us using free software.

[DigitalDuality]

My take on all of this?

I don't think this is bad for open source. Open source cannot die, interoperability is a good thing and i'm glad to see some innovation being made for people who are running hybrid networks that will come out of this.

But who i feel bad for right now isn't the open source world, but Redhat. 6 months ago Redhat was listed as the 3rd fastest rising tech company. This I feel was making headway for linux acceptance in the corporate world. Suse had also been making a great deal of headway, but not like Redhat was from a business perspective.

Since the Jboss acquisition, the Oracle linux being released, and now Suse partnering with MS.. Redhat is taking a beating. And not only redhat taking a beating, but the 3rd fastest growing tech company that just so happened to sell linux. They were first in line to really legitimize it and Oracle and MS (both competitors) have done a fine job in knocking them down.

What Ubuntu is doing for linux today in the desktop world, Redhat did for us in the desktop and server worlds in 99. Now i personally don't really like the whole rpm system, never have. And i think the look and feel for Redhat sucks compared to ubuntu.

Right now, Fedora/Redhat needs a community boom again. I really pray for that company.

Anyways, in regards to Suse, Novell has been down that road of being in bed with Microsoft before when they had a product that managed windows networks better than windows products and we see how far that got them.

If they get burned again b/c MS uses them the divide and conquer the linux world, then f--k em. i don't care.

[darkhatter]

I've given up, after reading what Red Hat had to say regrading this issue, Novell sold us out. I'm taking my Fedora Core 6 DVD and installing it, its going to be hard living with out Suse :(

[ComplexNumber]

I've given up, after reading what Red Hat had to say regrading this issue, Novell sold us out. I'm taking my Fedora Core 6 DVD and installing it, its going to be hard living with out Suse :(
btw kde takes a back seat to gnome on fedora. just thought i'd warn you. if you want a good kde distro, use PClinuxOS. they use apt as default plus rpm with synaptic as a frontend.

[darkhatter]

I installed my kubuntu again so I'm guess I'm using that for awhile

[cowlip]

I don't even like the idea of Beagle anymore (mono right?).

[cantormath]

Seen the news guys. this is bad for open source. people that were going to dump microsoft may now "migrate" meaning they will still buy Vista. a percentage at least.

Also suse will now not genuinely be contributing to open source as this will conflict with microsoft.

same situation with oracle trying to leech off redhat.

when openSUSE community goes to zero surely SUSE enterprise edition will merely be the UBUNTU release with "Find and replace" on UBUNTU, released one week later.

GPL v3 will stop this kind of rot. or am i wrong in this picture?

It is a sign of the empire caving in.
keep on fighting M$.

[Castar]

Has Linus said anything new about it? He only said that he knows nothing more than anyone else in the community. I was also trying to find FSF's and IBM's reactions, but apparently no one has made a statement yet. :confused:

I have to admit, I don't like it ethically but business-wise it caught everyone with their pants down. Surprise is their advantage right now.

I'm seriously thinking on switching to Fedora now. Damn rpm...

[ComplexNumber]

I'm seriously thinking on switching to Fedora now.
why are you saying that when you don't use suse?

[Castar]

Actually, Suse was the distribution I used first and was the only one until Ubuntu, so I'm kind of "attached" with it. I would always defend/prefer Suse to Redhat.

But right now, things have changed of course. I don't know really. I just feel that Redhat might need the support of the community right now. It has contributed so much to Open Source and Linux and it is just unfair with all the battering it receives.

Of course, it is still too early to judge the outcome. Also I like my Kubuntu, so I'll wait a bit ;)

[phi1ip]

It is a sign of the empire caving in.
keep on fighting M$.

you have a good point. i wonder what internal microsoft polling indicates the number of users that will upgrade to vista are. it could be less than 1%. i don't think many corporate users are intending to upgrade at all.

Perhaps this deal really is pay more money to microsoft and you will have a smoother exit from the Microsoft lock in.

essentially making Vista a proprietry version of WINE available now and bundalled with SUSE, albeit more resource hungry.

[deanlinkous]

Actually I think this could probably even skirt GPLv3 and it dances around v2. The way it is worded, the way it is a covenant and not a license, pretty much means novell can flaunt this in everyone face and not worry about anything including the FSF.

Novell just got into the proprietary linux in a MAJOR way. They create a mixed source distro. The two are kept seperate enough not to raise any GPL flags but tied together enough that nobody can use any "improvements" that novell makes. Maybe novell with MS help will basically fork everything and have their own code base and any changes are under the GPL but are worthless without the closed part of the project.

Sort of like the nvidia stuff, closed but works thru a gpl gateway package and that package is meaningless without calling on the nvidia stuff.

**bad hypothetical example**
Novell "improves" KDE by integrating MS media player into the taskbar. But without the media player then the code changes are worthless to any other project.

:-k

[phi1ip]

Yes, practical steps to make them as good as proprietry modifications.

perhaps the only practical way to ammend the GPL would be to have a clause that states "companies with market capitalisations greater than one billion dollars must apply for 'good corporate citizen' status before using or even bundling(distributing/supporting) the software"

call it the Microsoft/Novell/Oracle clause.

it won't stop all foul play but may be practical for the next five years for dealing with most of the likely trouble.

[deanlinkous]

Yes, practical steps to make them as good as proprietry modifications.

Yes, thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to say. It will be GPL but pointless without the proprietary "extras"

[deanlinkous]

Clause added to the GPLv3
The NOVSOFT clause!
Any company that releases a mixed source linux must request each year the right to distribute GPL covered software.

[robotzu2]

Why hate Microsoft? In fact most people on this planet use its Windows and Office. I don't think Linux can get a lot of Desktop market share without any commercial code.

[RAV TUX]

moving to "Other OS" talk....

[Sirin]

http://www.redhat.com/g/promos/unthinkable_4col.png (http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/)

[AlphaMack]

You know, this has me thinking. What fscking patents are there? I say, show me the fscking patents.

With Monkey Boy's threats toward anyone who doesn't cozy up to SuSE (see eWeek article), if Novell has made this agreement as some sort of 'acknowledgment' of the existence of Microsoft's IP, then there are three possible outcomes:

1. MS may have IP in Linux which has been made clear-cut to Novell, in which case GPL sec. 7 kicks in and Novell must cease distribution.

2. MS may have IP in Linux which Novell has not been notified of, but must cease distribution if MS litigates other distros or individuals.

3. This is all bullsh!t and a massive campaign of FUD.

This whole thing of 'we're not going to sue you if you join us' is BS. If Novell sticks by that, then they are running afoul of the GPL. I'm starting to lean toward #3 because if MS had any IP in Linux then they would have sued the companies backing their respective distros by now. If they're about to - assuming that these alleged patents can hold up in court - that means even Novell has to stop distributing SuSE as per the GPL. Is this what MS is trying to do?

I'm sticking by my original speculation that the 3 E's are at work here, not only to counter Red Hat's dominance in the enterprise market, but to squash Linux by introducing uncertainty and muddying up the waters just in time for Vista.

[deanlinkous]

1. MS may have IP in Linux which has been made clear-cut to Novell, in which case GPL sec. 7 kicks in and Novell must cease distribution.

Sec 7 will not kick in because it will not apply. The GPL is for GPL software only. Making a mixed source product doesn't invoke the GPL on the whole work.

[axely]

stop supporting openSUSE:

means support REDHAT/UBUNTU/linspire/others with your open souce bug fix's and purchase of books and paid support etc.....
I 100% agree that we should stop supporting Suse now.

[etelerro]

I wonder what Mark's opinion is about this...
Balmer had questioned "other" Linux providers to start talking with Microsoft, I hope Mark gives them the finger! ;)

[AlphaMack]

Better yet, what RMS and FSF thinks of all of this. They have been awfully quiet.

[darkhatter]

Better yet, what RMS and FSF thinks of all of this. They have been awfully quiet.

maybe because no one knows details, and are just guessing

[darkhatter]

http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/11/03/2325229



"I spoke with Bruce Lowery, director of global communications, and Justin Steinman, director of product marketing, Linux & open platform solutions, Friday afternoon to clarify a few issues from yesterday's bombshell announcement. Here's what I learned.
Lowery says that portions of the formal agreements between Microsoft and Novell may be made public within the next four days. An FTC filing is required if the deal has a material impact on Novell's earnings. Assuming that such a filing occurs, however, the level of detail to be included has not been determined. So we may know more about those agreements next week, or we may not.
I also asked Steinman how the collaborative works which Microsoft and Novell have agreed to work on together to improve virtualization, management, and open formats will be licensed. He says that Novell's contributions will be open.
"A lot of what of what we're actually doing are enhancements to our own individual open source and proprietary pieces of software, to make them work better together. The enhancements that we make to SUSE Enterprise Linux will be open source code. The improvements that Microsoft makes to Windows to make it work better with Linux will be proprietary code."
When I asked if that wouldn't allow other distributions to take advantage of what Novell is doing, Steinman replied, "Sure. But you know what? That's the price of being in the Linux business."
Steinman stressed the importance of Microsoft's endorsement of SUSE Linux, so I asked if that were the big gain for Novell. He said the endorsement is good, plus "the fact that Microsoft will be purchasing 70,000 subscriptions of priority or basic support per year, for the next five years."
My final question was whether or not Novell was concerned that SUSE Linux will be shunned by the free software -- or portions of the open source -- communities for doing a deal with the devil?
Steinman answered, "I think right now the community is having a little bit of an emotional response, after all the years of aggression, I think after the emotion dies down, and they look at this with a cold, rational eye, they will see this will be very good for open source software."
Curiously enough, Novell's main competition in the Linux arena, Red Hat Linux, agrees with that position. Red Hat posted its opinion on the issue on its Website. The bottom line? Red Hat says "It was inevitable. The best technology has been acknowledged."

[darkhatter]

This is a FAQ released by Novell
http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html



Q3. Is this agreement an admission that Linux products from Novell infringe Microsoft patents?

No.

Patent concerns did not drive our entry into this agreement. Novell makes no admission that its Linux and open source offerings infringe on any other parties' patents. Our position has not changed as a result of this agreement.

Q4. With this agreement, will Novell include Microsoft patented code in its contributions to the open source community?

No. Novell will not change its development practices as a result of this agreement. It has always been our policy in all development, open source and proprietary, to stay away from code that infringes another's patents, and we will continue to develop software using these standard practices. If any of our code is found to infringe someone else's patents, we will try to find prior technology to invalidate the patents, rework the code to design around the infringement, or as a last resort remove the functionality.

Novell is committed to protecting, preserving and promoting freedom for free and open source software.

[Castar]

I fairly "calm" opinion on the subject by Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4287912423.html

[darkhatter]

people are starting to lose interest, and it appears to be getting calmer

[Castar]

The initial reaction was bound to be very emotional. Who knows, maybe this works out good for Linux generally.

[tommcd]

Have you all read this yet from Bob Cringely:

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2006/pulpit_20061110_001188.html

[Castar]

Novell answers questions from the community (http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/faq_opensource.html).

This clarifies their position a bit.

[deanlinkous]

Oh yea, clears it right up.

Lets see - a royalty based on a patent license would be a violation so instad we will come up with a coveneant and instead of paying royalties for a patent license we will pay a covenant payment yea, thats the ticket!

[Bells]

I'm in no way speaking for Novell.

As most of you have figured out this can't affect much and not OpenSuSe or any other Linux distro, it's a cross licensing project between Novell and MS, that is it.

What it means to you or to Ubuntu or to OpenSuSE ia about nothing.

Will you morons please stay away from our bugzillas and mailing lists though, you are embarrassing Ubuntu.

Danke

pat

[Swab]

I'm in no way speaking for Novell.

As most of you have figured out this can't affect much and not OpenSuSe or any other Linux distro, it's a cross licensing project between Novell and MS, that is it.

What it means to you or to Ubuntu or to OpenSuSE ia about nothing.

Will you morons please stay away from our bugzillas and mailing lists though, you are embarrassing Ubuntu.

Danke

pat

Might have been an idea to read the forum rules before posting.

[Castar]

I'm in no way speaking for Novell.

As most of you have figured out this can't affect much and not OpenSuSe or any other Linux distro, it's a cross licensing project between Novell and MS, that is it.

What it means to you or to Ubuntu or to OpenSuSE ia about nothing.

Will you morons please stay away from our bugzillas and mailing lists though, you are embarrassing Ubuntu.

Danke

pat

And the posts themselves...