(K)Ubuntu v5.04 vs. Mandriva v10.2

[maspro]

Hi there,

For some time now I have been reading some very cool things about (K)Ubuntu. Currently I have Mandriva running as my distro. Can someone tell me why I should choose (K)Ubuntu instead of Mandriva? What are the pros and cons of both distro's and why is the one better than the other?

If I look at distrowatch.com Ubuntu currently ranks 1st place and Mandriva 2nd place, while this used to be the other way around.

;-)

[diebels]

Ubuntu is better. Not sure about kubuntu.

[gil-galad]

They both are fine.

[jdonnell]

apt-get is the biggest reason to use ubuntu over mandriva. I've had too many problems with rpm based systems in the past (primarily redhat)

[XDevHald]

ACK! rpm's are nasty, apt-get is an eye catcher to all dev's and also newbies to linux, very simple and easy.

As far as Mandriva goes, it's not a comparison to Kubuntu at all. The desktop is much cleaner and has more utils than Mandriva will ever have.

[poofyhairguy]

Hi there,

For some time now I have been reading some very cool things about (K)Ubuntu. Currently I have Mandriva running as my distro. Can someone tell me why I should choose (K)Ubuntu instead of Mandriva? What are the pros and cons of both distro's and why is the one better than the other?


Sure. First of all, if you like Gnome than Ubuntu's Gnome is miles better than KDEs. Its untainted for the most part, and is MUCH cleaner. I hated Mandrake's Gnome when I used it.

Second of all (this is a big one for me), if you hate compiling software as much as me- I hate it a lot- then you will be happy to learn that (k)Ubuntu has many more packages availible than Mandriva. I mean, Mandriva has the most of the RPM based distros (I knowledgable fan has told me that Mandriva has around 9000 RPM packages online) , but it doesn't touch Ubuntu/Debian (Hoary has over 14000 packages when you include the universe). Packages make life easier (I can never get hand compiled apps to work correctly personally) and Ubuntu has most that you'll need. Plus, if you need something not in the Universe or Main parts of Ubuntu then there is a pretty good chance that someone else has it on another server (like jdong).

Third of all, Ubuntu only has one version. What you see is what you get. It does not have media codecs installed by default (just like Mandriva's download version for the same reasons), but at least Ubuntu doesn't rub in your face that there is a better version. One thing that stuck out to me about Mandrake 10.1 is that in KDE the menu bar blatently told me it was the "download version" as if I was using a second class OS. In their situation I would prefer something like having the download version be called "Mandriva" and having the pay for version be "Mandriva Professional."

Fourth, you don't have to pay to get on the servers. I don't mind Mandriva making money, but I personally prefer free.

Fifth, Ubuntu has pretty good documentation for a newer distro. First there is the Ubuntu Guide:

http://ubuntuguide.org/

And then this part of the forums:

http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58

Sixth, Ubuntu promises two releases a year and I think Mandriva might only offer one a year (might be wrong on that point).

Seventh, Ubuntu lacks all of the draketools which at first seems like a bad thing but really isn't. You get dependent on these tools, and they are buggy and they don't work right part of the time (did for me in 10.1).Gnome has better tools by default, and Ubuntu uses them. I must point out here that this is more of a bad thing in Kubuntu in my opinion because KDE lacks a lot of the tools that Gnome has. KDE suffers from the fact that most ot the KDE distros have their own GUI tools (drake tools in Mandriva and YAST in SUSE) so some areas are REALLY lacking. You have to install the Gnome system tools in Kubuntu or hit some commandline. Hopefully soon Kubuntu will have a YAST port.

Eighth, Ubuntu sounds cooler to me than Mandriva. I know that is a poor point, but I kinda liked the Mandrake name. This new name is one letter away from being a drag queen (not that thats bad or anything, its just that I wouldn't want RuPaul's OS).

Ninth, the last Madriva release candidate had KDE 3.3 and Gnome 2.8. (K)ubuntu has 3.4 and Gnome 2.10.

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mandrake

Mandriva's cooker is up to date, but is not fair comparing that to a released OS (Hoary).


Tenth (and finally), Ubuntu has a great community. Is it better than Mandriva's? Well, I don't know. So no one uppence there.

There, ten reasons. Of course, you are on the Ubuntu forum....so bias is hopefully expected.

[maspro]

Thx guys for the replies so far, especially poofyhairguy for his very comprehensive reply.

Well I installed Ubuntu and indeed one of the first things I missed was the draktools, also I don't fancy Gnome that much, so I guess it's going to be KDE with the extra Gnome tools. I did notice that Ubuntu is faster than Mandriva, so that's a plus. Also the whole apt-get idea sounds much better than urpmi.

I read that Connectiva was the first rpm-based distro that successfully ported apt-get to it's distro and that it eventually fully replaced Connectiva's rpm. So is it safe to asume that Connectiva apt-get works about the same as Debian apt-get? Also is there much difference in Connectiva's implementation of apt-get and that of a ported apt-get (yum???) for Fedora? Since Mandrake & Connectiva have merged now, I think it's safe to asume that the next major Mandriva release will have a full implementation of Connectiva's apt-get. Whould this make Mandriva a lot better?

Are there any more cons that make Mandriva the lesser choice?

[arctic]

hmmm... somehow i knew that this thread would end in trolling around... and it does.

both systems are fine distros. in the end it simply depends on your very own expectations to an os and to your personal needs if you should choose k/ubuntu or stick to mandriva. just try them and make your choice. ;)

i use both systems and none of them is really superior to another imho. and i could point out 10 weaknesses in ubuntu that do not apply to mandriva, but that would be even more trolling, so i keep my mouth shut. :-#

[KiwiNZ]

Mandriva is run by a money-grubbing company; it's president's the bunny below my post.

Please keep to the subject. This thread is for a comparison btween to fine products lets keep personalities and or trolling out of it .That way we all enjoy a good conversation .

Thanks

[poofyhairguy]

Thx guys for the replies so far, especially poofyhairguy for his very comprehensive reply.

Well I installed Ubuntu and indeed one of the first things I missed was the draktools, also I don't fancy Gnome that much, so I guess it's going to be KDE with the extra Gnome tools. I did notice that Ubuntu is faster than Mandriva, so that's a plus. Also the whole apt-get idea sounds much better than urpmi.

I read that Connectiva was the first rpm-based distro that successfully ported apt-get to it's distro and that it eventually fully replaced Connectiva's rpm. So is it safe to asume that Connectiva apt-get works about the same as Debian apt-get? Also is there much difference in Connectiva's implementation of apt-get and that of a ported apt-get (yum???) for Fedora?

Works about the same, just has more packages availible.



Since Mandrake & Connectiva have merged now, I think it's safe to asume that the next major Mandriva release will have a full implementation of Connectiva's apt-get. Whould this make Mandriva a lot better?


Not really. I personally believe that URMPI is the best RPM tool. It works great, made me like Linux early on. Plus, the package managers don't matter as much as the repos you connect to. If I was you, I would try out the program called synaptic. Its a GREAT gui for apt-get, and I don't know if I could live without it.

I'm glad you tried Ubuntu and I hope you like it. If not, no big deal. Its all Linux on the inside.

[KiwiNZ]

I have used many of the Mandriva products . They put together a good distro. But right now I prefer Ubuntu/Kubuntu ( I use both depending on the such influences as the weather) .
RPM is umm err it means work , apt and in particular Synaptic means easy as. and I guess that is one of the main sellers of a Debian based system for me.
But it boils down to horses or courses . What ever best fits you is the best .

[escuchamezz]

If you like gnome use Ubuntu
If you like kde use Mandriver

if you would like to wait a little try Fedora 4

[Nob]

if u're new to linux, use ubuntu
if u're desktop user, use ubuntu
if u're progremmer, use debian, gentoo or bsd

dont use mandriva, anyway, anyhow... ;)

[jdonnell]

if u're progremmer, use debian, gentoo or bsd


I'm a programmer and I use ubuntu. I want to get work done, not fiddle with settings (Gentoo). Debian is too out of date for me to work on, and bsd is well bsd. I like freebsd but we use linux servers so I want my workstation to be linux.

[maspro]

Well I hear several people here saying don't use Mandriva, but I don't see much explanations why this is the case. Besides urpmi, what makes Mandriva so bad? If distrowatch.com is a reliable site then there must be some reason why Mandriva takes 2nd place in the ranking.

[gil-galad]

Well I hear several people here saying don't use Mandriva, but I don't see much explanations why this is the case. Besides urpmi, what makes Mandriva so bad? If distrowatch.com is a reliable site then there must be some reason why Mandriva takes 2nd place in the ranking.


Mandrake is fine, it just doesn't have as good of a gnome desktop as ubuntu. Anothing thing ubuntu has is a big repository.

If you like KDE, however, mandrake is a good choice. URPMI is a pretty good tool from what I remember, and mandrake is both free and open source. There is nothing wrong with mandrake.

[KiwiNZ]

Well I hear several people here saying don't use Mandriva, but I don't see much explanations why this is the case. Besides urpmi, what makes Mandriva so bad? If distrowatch.com is a reliable site then there must be some reason why Mandriva takes 2nd place in the ranking.

Mandriva is not bad at all , far from it . It is one of the leading lights of the Linux World. Its Power Pack edition is great. I have the DVD version of 10.0 and still have install on a PC.
My personal rankings of the Distros would go like this ...
1.Ubuntu / Kubuntu
2.Fedora Core 3
3.Mandriva 10.1 ( I havent tried the latest)
4.Suse 9.2
5.Novell Desktop 9

[jdonnell]

what makes Mandriva so bad?


I haven't used mandrake so I can't really say much, but I've used redhat, suse, freebsd, mac os x and ubuntu. Basically, linux is linux and it's good. Ubuntu is simply much better for me than any of the rest I've used. Here is an example. I have an ubuntu server I run at home which I use for testing my web apps and as an subversion server. Upgrading from warty to hoary was very simple and I didn't have any problems. This isn't so important with desktops but it is with servers. You don't want to have to reinstall every year or two because the upgrades **** things up.

The only bad thing I can say about Mandrake is that I've been in rpm hell and it IS hell. Because of this I avoid rpm distros for servers.

Now let me give you an answer to your dilema. Just pick one, you can't really go wrong. Use it for a while then you'll get bored and want to try a different one. Most people that come to linux go thru a few distros before they settle on one. The beauty is that the configs are mostly the same. I'm typing this from suse 9.1 right now. I can save the php and apache configs, wipe the system, install ubuntu, and then use my old configs and I'll be right at home again. The similarities between distros is far greater than the differences and you can't really understand the differences until you've experienced them. Just remember that linux is linux and the main difference is the package manager.

[arctic]

Well I hear several people here saying don't use Mandriva, but I don't see much explanations why this is the case. Besides urpmi, what makes Mandriva so bad? If distrowatch.com is a reliable site then there must be some reason why Mandriva takes 2nd place in the ranking.
okay, now i will add my two cents and try not to troll around.

mandriva/mandrake changed its release cycle to one distro per year. this will mean that the distro will be even more rock-stable. in the past, new versions were developed before the last bugs were cleaned out. this will change now, as mandriva will be the distro that will be used for home-pcs, business desktops and servers alike (with little changes), afaik. this means that the system needs to become more stable and it will. it will be some kind of a more up-to-date "debian sarge" featuring rpms and business support.

mandriva is, like ubuntu a free distribution. mandrake/mandriva club members will get download access to the full-featured distro before any other persons and this is the only real "disadvantage" that i do know of (if you can't wait some weeks for the 100% free download of the full edition).

just like debian based distros, you can upgrade from 10.1 to e.g. LE2005, using urpmi. sure, here and there, packages might not work the way they should, but the same happened to me with debian packages, so there is no reason to say, you can't upgrade mandriva.

a big plus with mandriva is its versatility. the installer is newbie friendly and it offers you MORE choices than an ubuntu install. yes, you can build a 100% customized distro with mandriva, e.g. only a firewall-distro, a stripped down server, a kde box, a gnome box, a windowmaker-box etc... and all with a few clicks (or a little bit of typing from cli). the integration of the endless number of windowmanagers in mandriva is simply great as the different desktops simply work. (anyone in here got rox-desktop running in ubuntu out of the box? ;) )

so, you do have a lot of choices in mandriva, packed together with tremendous stability. this is something you also have with other distros, but not always out of th ebox. thus, if you decide to buy e.g. the powerpack, you will get more than with any other distro in a pre-packed box. BUT you have to buy it. that is okay for some users, others will reject this option alltogether. but if you have a 56k modem, buying a powerpack is not the worst solution.

downpoint: mandriva does not ship cds for free and its ppc support still needs improvement imho. but after all... they are a company that has to pay bills for servers and employees... so i won't blame them.

ubuntu and kubuntu do have some minor advantages IF you prefer a stripped down, very clean system with minimal eye-distraction. the focus they have put on the desktop-user-interaction is remarkable. no application (e.g. wastebin) will be hidden behind other windows. this is something no other distro offers right now afaik. but others are used to the "old" approach of having the home, trash and computer folder on the desktop, so this is once again a decision based on personal choice.

about speed: i am running 10.1 and 5.04 on the same box and (my other boxes still have other distros running on them for differing reasons) i can cannot say that there is much of a speed advantage in k/ubuntu. it depends on the way you set up your system. with a custom install, you can make almost every distro fly on your box. but mandriva has done some tweaking to kde in 10.2/LE2005, making kde even faster due to some special compiling procedure. this is a bit similar to yoper ( still the fastest kde-desktop available right now). but i do not run kde on my boxes, so i can't veryfy it. mandriva says that kde is now 10% faster.

after all: both systems are great. but as with all distros, it largely depends on what you want to achive, how much you want to customize your box and how much knowledge of linux you posess in order to achieve this.

after running mandriva/mandrake and ubuntu on the same box since end of september 2004, i cannot say that ubuntu is better than mandriva or vice versa. both are great, both are stable, both do their job. :)

p.s.: in case you run into the "dependency hell", use easyurpmi to set up mirrors and life is great afterwards. all dependency stuff is solved automatically. and for those who want something similar to yast (but only better), there is the mandrake control center, which is still the best system admisitration tool for noobs imho (even my mom (62 years old now), who is a "complete idiot" with computers could handle this tool).

i hope i didn't troll around. :)

[maspro]

Well guys this makes things a lot clearer to me now. Thx!

But about that release cycle of Mandriva, the next version of Mandriva is going to be 6 months from now.

Here's the roadmap form their site:
http://www.mandriva.com/company/press/pr?n=/pr/products/2546

2005 Roadmap Sumary:

Name: "Limited Edition 2005"
Expected date of release: Spring 2005
Technology: Based on current development branch
Support & Services: No
Release Channels: Mandrakeclub, Mandrakestore (DVD + 6 CD set)

Name: "2006"
Expected date of release: Fall 2005
Technology: Integrates Conectiva technology
Support & Services: Full
Release channels: Mandrakeclub, Mandrakestore, retail (DVD, Packs...)

So after Mandriva Linux 2006 is released, there will be annual releases, but isn't this far to long between releases? Mandriva is more or less a commercial company, how will they stay ahead of the competition? Will there be application updates between 2 releases?

[arctic]

afaik there will be some application updates but the core remains the same. and one release per year is enough. take a look at all the commercial software products... winxp is there since three years, photoshop was there for over two years, indesign was there for roughly two years, etc...
and having success does not mean bleeding edge in the first priority. it means providing a stable system that works and which you can trust. bleeding edge "can" be counterproductive in this way.

[Nob]

Well I hear several people here saying don't use Mandriva, but I don't see much explanations why this is the case. Besides urpmi, what makes Mandriva so bad? If distrowatch.com is a reliable site then there must be some reason why Mandriva takes 2nd place in the ranking.
if distro is full of apps it doesnt mean that its good
i used mdk 10.0 and 10.1, and both of them had ka-BOOMing kernels... i mean, its all fine for a few months, and then, all begins to crush ... first sound server, then X, and so on... and btw - that happened when nothing is touched, everuthing set on default

my distro comparison
Ubuntu - most user friendly and reliable, does not contain KDE whitch is annoying [to me], and ofcourse - debian-based!
Gentoo - it isnt hard AT ALL! just instalation, i took more time to configure Ubuntu than Gentoo. Gentoo is good coz u did all by urself, so you know exactly how system is functioning ;)
Debian - no need explainoing, one of most stable, one of most oldest distros ever ;)
Fedora and Red Hat - havent used them, but they are good
SuSe - very user friendly distro, havent used it, but friends told me its ok
Slackware - disapointment... 10.0 was cool, used it. but kernel was unstable, and i heard then are removinf Gnome from distro... too bad, and very commercial too!
Madriva [MDK] - well daaaaaahh... i explained above. oh yes, MDK is using XFree server, not xorg... and XFree is not open source anymore :) as slack, its way too commercial

[maspro]

if distro is full of apps it doesnt mean that its good
i used mdk 10.0 and 10.1, and both of them had ka-BOOMing kernels... i mean, its all fine for a few months, and then, all begins to crush ... first sound server, then X, and so on... and btw - that happened when nothing is touched, everuthing set on default

Hmm, I wonder how this can happen? Surely there must be something wrong then. So in short you think that Mandriva is some sort of running time-bomb! This is the first time I hear that Mandriva is described in such a way.

[flurdy]

Ubuntu and Mdk are both great. Ive used mdk for years.

Mdk powerpack has loads of apps and draktools are good. urpmi is fine. never really had an issue with it. The mdk installer is great and slick.

My only issue with mdk and why i now use ubuntu on more and more of my putas, is that when i buy a powerpack, a new one is released before ive really got down with my version, thereby im soon sitting with an outdated version. (Im getting old, time flies).

If i was better off or got work to pay for a good club membership then that wouldnt be an issue though. With easyurpmi.zarb.org i stay up to date most of the time, but it is annoying to feel 2nd rate to club members.

With their new 1 year release cycle that changes it slightly though.

But im so happy with ubuntu, im not going back (well at least not for awhile).

(tried gentoo, but havent got the patience to tweak and compile everything. I dont overclock my pc hardware nor do i have go faster stripes on my car, so it was not my cup of tea. )