A Call to Distros: Give Users What They Want

[finalbeta]

I wanted to post a link to an article from the site OSNews.
http://www.osnews.com/story.php/16284/A-Call-to-Distros-Give-Users-What-They-Want


Right now, the users of the 3-5 most popular Linux distros have to either search the internet for guides like this one in order to get an idea how to install non-free software, or they have to figure out how to use the distro's package management and how to enable certain repositories. In the case of Ubuntu also exists an easy-to-use utility that will download most of these apps for you and install them. But even in this case, the user must know of its existence and must know how to install it in the first place.

I could not agree more with the article and it's conclusions.


And that easy solution must work in a similar way to this:
1. Via a GUI app found on the /Administration menu that lists the 10 most wanted proprietary applications and asks the user to check the boxes of the apps he wants to install. Show a license agreement that waives the distro off any legal problems and then download and install the requested software.
2. When a user tries to load an mp3 or a .wmv, have patched your multimedia apps (e.g. Sound Juicer, Rhythmbox, Banshee, XMMS, Totem) to inform the user why they can't play these files and ask if he/she wants to download the codecs. If the user says "yes", show the license agreement that waives the distro from any legal problems and download/install the requested software. If installing the MP3 codec, also install the required Gnome mp3 profile so users can actually rip in MP3 with Sound Juicer.

Ubuntu might make progress on number 2 in Feisty. With the easy codec installation Spec.

But I think that one does not go far enough. All of our software comes from ubuntu's repositories. Meaning Ubuntu knows what the most popular software is. I would be of great benefit for new users to tell them what the most popular software is. (Since they have no clue what exists) NO mater what license or if it's proprietary.

So Ubuntu should have a dialogue , or "place", where Ubuntu tells the end user that users with a similar config also have program X installed. (Like most popular media players, or users with a TV card would see recommended programs, or the closed drivers for their video card)
When a user would install something from that place, he would not have to mess with enabling repositories, he would be educated about the license or proprietary state. This would educate end users in a better way about why proprietary is "bad" while still helping new users get the best system for there wishes.

Opinions?

[seshomaru samma]

Agree!

[Brunellus]

obviously Linux is not ready for the desktop.

[bonzodog]

This will almost certainly never happen where the apps are listed on the desktop as installable - Ubuntu leans heavily on the side of GNU in linux, very much in the Debian style.

Therefore, whilst the apps and codecs will be available, they will remain hidden until enabled. This goes along with the philosophy of the preference of using GNU codecs and Apps where-ever possible, and only using proprietry code if absolutely needed.

[mhancoc7]

Yes, Ubuntu does lean heavily towards GNU. I could not agree more with the idea though. I mean, the average computer user does not even know what Open-Source software is. I agree that we should use Open-Source first when available, but we can't expect computer users to do without things that they have grown accustomed too just because there isn't an Open-Source solution.
Jereme

[tubasoldier]

Everything the author is looking for is available in a linux distribution. Linspire/Freespire have these codecs installed by default. I dont always agree with how they accomplish thier computing tasks (giving the first user root priveleges), but they are very easy to use. Their Click N Run is pretty slick. The problem isnt the lack of linux distribution to fit the authors needs, the problem is that he did not do his reasearch to find one that did.

[midwinter]

Indeed, there are other distros that provide easy/easier access to those applications, and having installed a few of those on Ubuntu in my earlier days I can say they weren't all that difficult to get running anyway. Ubuntu is obviously FOSS orientated and personally i'm glad of that.

[chaosgeisterchen]

I can agree with the article, this would improve popularity significantly.

[raublekick]

Indeed, there are other distros that provide easy/easier access to those applications, and having installed a few of those on Ubuntu in my earlier days I can say they weren't all that difficult to get running anyway. Ubuntu is obviously FOSS orientated and personally i'm glad of that.

agreed

should Ubuntu promote FOSS codecs over proprietary ones? or should it just supply the FOSS ones only but tell the user "yeah, we know these suck and/or are useless so here's the proprietary ones anyways!!"

thanks to FOSS promotion, I plan to get a mp3 player that supports ogg vorbis when it comes time for me to replace my Zen. then i will rip my CD collection in ogg vorbis, but of course i will still need mp3 codecs for many other mp3s not from my CD collection.

the 3-5 most popular distros should not ONLY provide an easy to use desktop for the user, but should also use their popularity to promote FOSS alternatives.

[tubasoldier]

Ubuntu, Debian, and Fedora are the only distributions I have had to actually figure out how to install the proprietary codecs. Debian and Ubuntu as a result of their stance towards FOSS. Fedora, because they dont want to be sued. All the other distros I have used have been quite easy to get the proprietary codecs. And that is a long list.

[spacegypsy]

100% true!

All this license, copyright and patent story is so obsolete.

[chaosgeisterchen]

Well, Ubuntu does not want to support propietary tools as it proclaims that there should be a open source solution to everything.

[maniacmusician]

theres nothing wrong with promoting open source, but one needn't be sadistic about it. When I buy new CDs, I'll rip them to ogg, sure, but i'm not going to re-rip my entire CD collection or even re-encode my entire collection to ogg. I really have a lot of more important things to spend my time on.

We can achieve both goals at the same time; educate the user about FLOSS, and cater to their neeeds at the same time. So yes, allow for the easy installation of codecs, but while doing that, also say:

"Hey, I understand you need these codecs, but here is why they're bad: [list reasons]. If you want to support the open-source movement, in the future, please use this codec instead: [theora, vorbis, whatever]. Click here to learn more about this format, and how to use it"

[chaosgeisterchen]

You mean that it's good to tell users that they should follow the spirit and the idea of FOSS and Ubuntu but they are free to choose either way to go? Could be more comfortable for the end user but I bet users will not adopt the ideals of FOSS this way round - as they continue using their propietary codecs and formats.

[Bloch]

When I click to open a .ogg music file in Windows it offers to find out what type of file it is and what software I need to open it.

So I click. It takes me to a page that says

File type unknown. Windows does not know how to open this file.

Ubuntu does pretty much the same garbage when you try to play an .mp3, spouting some stuff about codecs not available etc.

Go to the ubuntu homepage and read its blurb about the system:

. . . you can play your videos in Totem . .

No you can't!! Not unless you already know what FLOSS and open source is all about, and then you wouldn't be reading that introductory page.

This is burying your head in the sand and pretending proprietory codecs etc don't exist. How difficult would it be for Totem to report"
"To play this file you need the mp3 codec. If you are in the USA you need to . . . and if you are in the EU you need to . . . . "

It's absurd that new users are coming to the forum reporting "I can't play my music and video . . . " Their program should tell them why it can't play it and some choices of what to do.

[PatrickMay16]

Someone ought to write a GUI tool for configuring the xorg.conf file. This would be nice for newbies; no editing a complex config file just to get the right refresh rate and resolution when the installer misdetects the monitor.

This would be a case of distros giving users what they want. Anyone agree?

[tubasoldier]

Someone ought to write a GUI tool for configuring the xorg.conf file. This would be nice for newbies; no editing a complex config file just to get the right refresh rate and resolution when the installer misdetects the monitor.

This would be a case of distros giving users what they want. Anyone agree?

Again, this already exists on another distribution. It is yet another case of what distribution fits your needs best? Mandriva has a GUI to configure xorg, samba, WebDav, Package Management, grub/lilo, and even to make different boot up splashes. Their tools are open source and I have just started last night to look at what it would take to compile these "drak" tools (named for Mandrake) for Ubuntu. And would it be useful to use these graphical tools in Ubuntu? Would these tools be able to configure Ubuntu as easily as they configure Mandriva? There of course will be issues in the way the systems work and the package management. I will find out over the next few weeks.

[PatrickMay16]

Again, this already exists on another distribution.

Then it ought to be brought over to ubuntu. People often complain about having to edit a text config file to get stuff like screen resolutions correct. This would probably be easy to bring over and get working, and it'd be very helpful for new users.
After all, Ubuntu is supposed to be "linux for human beings".

[tubasoldier]

After all, Ubuntu is supposed to be "linux for human beings".

It is for human beings. It does not work well for mindless zombies. And it is especially bad for lemmings.

[chaosgeisterchen]

I hope there will be once a CLI-tool for reverting the xorg.conf to a rock solid state. This would be easy for end users which have messed up the X Server.

[ade234uk]

We can have all these things without losing community value. So what if a box pops up asking you if want to install the codecs, this is a great thing and it is what all Linux distros are missing.

Do we want new users?
Do we want new users to stay with Ubuntu?
Do we want to make it easy to get Ubuntu up and running?

The answer is yes to the above. Why?

1) Becuase they wont run off back to Windows

2) Becuase the more users that get invloved, the more probability of hardware manufacturers listening and finally showing support for all the major distros. It's not rocket science.

Linux needs this now!!

[DoctorMO]

ade234uk, cool how long will it take you to make?

[Naralas]

I like your idea, but nobody wants to try play an MP3 then realise they have something to do to make it work. During the install there should be an option "do you wish to install support for MP3 and many common video formats? (highly recommended)" (Ubuntu should also come with Flash and Mplayer plugin for firefox installed by the way) and then the user just obviously clicks "yes" ignoring the waver completely. If necessary it could say "highly recommended where legal" but thats usually a given.

Ubuntu should make there own EasyUbuntu, because the current one sucks.

Also, a gui frontend and NDISWrapper would be an awsome addition for lappy users like me.

[Brunellus]

I like your idea, but nobody wants to try play an MP3 then realise they have something to do to make it work. During the install there should be an option "do you wish to install support for MP3 and many common video formats? (highly recommended)" (Ubuntu should also come with Flash and Mplayer plugin for firefox installed by the way) and then the user just obviously clicks "yes" ignoring the waver completely. If necessary it could say "highly recommended where legal" but thats usually a given.

Ubuntu should make there own EasyUbuntu, because the current one sucks.

Also, a gui frontend and NDISWrapper would be an awsome addition for lappy users like me.
If you want that, use MEPIS. Ubuntu is committed to its free software.

[Reshin]

Making those things put fate in that that people actually care about legal issues. Many people are gonna click 'yes' anyway. So IMHO the current, "hidden" option is best at the moment. :-k

I'm sure many lawyers/courts/whatever see it this way :-?

[tubasoldier]

I like your idea, but nobody wants to try play an MP3 then realise they have something to do to make it work. During the install there should be an option "do you wish to install support for MP3 and many common video formats? (highly recommended)" (Ubuntu should also come with Flash and Mplayer plugin for firefox installed by the way) and then the user just obviously clicks "yes" ignoring the waver completely. If necessary it could say "highly recommended where legal" but thats usually a given.

Ubuntu should make there own EasyUbuntu, because the current one sucks.

Also, a gui frontend and NDISWrapper would be an awsome addition for lappy users like me.

This whole thread has been not about what linux is missing but what Ubuntu IS. Ubuntu is going to only ship FOSS. Thats the way it is. The same goes for Debian, the distro Ubuntu is based on. It is a part of their CORE VALUES. It would no longer be their core values if they decided to go against it. If you want linux with codecs, flash, adobe acrobat, realplayer, blah blah blah, then pull out your wallet and purchase one. Thats right. I said buy it. Linspire, Mandriva Powerpack, Suse 10, the list goes on and on. I have purchased Mandriva in the past. I can tell you that it is much easier to install and set up when you pay for it.

Its simple. Ubuntu uses free software and free software only. Not only "free as in beer" but "free as in speech". It must meet both requirements to be included in Ubuntu. MP3, Flash, Adobe Acrobat, Windows Media DO NOT meet the "Free as in Speech" requirement. Matter of fact MP3 and Windows Media technically don't even meet the "free as in beer" requirement. Those codecs are legally supposed to be purchased. (At least in the United States) If you want a distro with Legal codec options then Freespire/Linspire is really your only option.

Ubuntu is what it is. If you want something different then look at different distributions. Besides, it is not hard to install this stuff in Ubuntu. Especially with Automatix or EasyUbuntu.

[compmodder26]

This whole thread has been not about what linux is missing but what Ubuntu IS. Ubuntu is going to only ship FOSS. Thats the way it is. The same goes for Debian, the distro Ubuntu is based on. It is a part of their CORE VALUES. It would no longer be their core values if they decided to go against it. If you want linux with codecs, flash, adobe acrobat, realplayer, blah blah blah, then pull out your wallet and purchase one. Thats right. I said buy it. Linspire, Mandriva Powerpack, Suse 10, the list goes on and on. I have purchased Mandriva in the past. I can tell you that it is much easier to install and set up when you pay for it.

Its simple. Ubuntu uses free software and free software only. Not only "free as in beer" but "free as in speech". It must meet both requirements to be included in Ubuntu. MP3, Flash, Adobe Acrobat, Windows Media DO NOT meet the "Free as in Speech" requirement. Matter of fact MP3 and Windows Media technically don't even meet the "free as in beer" requirement. Those codecs are legally supposed to be purchased. (At least in the United States) If you want a distro with Legal codec options then Freespire/Linspire is really your only option.

Ubuntu is what it is. If you want something different then look at different distributions. Besides, it is not hard to install this stuff in Ubuntu. Especially with Automatix or EasyUbuntu.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[aysiu]

1. If you want Ubuntu to know what's most popular, use the popularity-contest package.

2. What you're talking about is already beginning to happen. I tried to play an MP3 in AmaroK, and I was prompted with a password dialogue to install the appropriate package. I didn't have to know the name of the package--AmaroK automatically fetched it for me. This is in Edgy.

3. A lot of distros come with proprietary stuff out-of-the-box: Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Blag, Linspire...

Truth of the matter: if you have the savvy to download and burn an ISO and repartition your drive and install and configure a new operating system, you can figure out how to install some codecs.

And, as I said before, some distros don't even require you to figure it out.

[Henry Rayker]

Truth of the matter: if you have the savvy to download and burn an ISO and repartition your drive and install and configure a new operating system, you can figure out how to install some codecs.


*agrees*

As far as installing the codecs went (for me at least) it was much more simple than installing some codecs in Windows. If I recall correctly Ubuntu played my .mkv videos (I know mkv is a container, not really a file type)...Windows required not only a different player, but an additional codec pack to get them to function properly.

[Shay Stephens]

For me, not having access to non-free software by default helped me to realize what had freedom and what did not. It also made it clear to me how reliant I had become on non-free software.

I am now in the transition phase. If ubuntu loaded everything by default I would remain clueless, and ubuntu would eventually be corrupted and controlled by non-free entities and it would be like using windows all over again, the very thing I am fleeing in the first place.

[finalbeta]

In no way did I (the initial poster) suggested proprietary code should be running by default. I merely suggest using known information, to make an easier experience and even educating the end users in a better way.

Right now what people get to hear is. "enable all repositories and do sudo apt-get ....". You are not educating and leaving end users with a "why do I have to do this if it could just ..." feeling.

I'm actually willing to bet something resembling what I suggested will be implemented in time. Just have to wait until people want to take the sunglasses of to see the light.

[Brunellus]

In no way did I (the initial poster) suggested proprietary code should be running by default. I merely suggest using known information, to make an easier experience and even educating the end users in a better way.

Right now what people get to hear is. "enable all repositories and do sudo apt-get ....". You are not educating and leaving end users with a "why do I have to do this if it could just ..." feeling.

I'm actually willing to bet something resembling what I suggested will be implemented in time. Just have to wait until people want to take the sunglasses of to see the light.
People don't want to be enlightened, they want to be entertained. Let the dead bury their dead.

[RAV TUX]

interesting thread on an old subject.

Alot of Distros come with the codecs preinstalled primarily those not inhibited by US laws.

SabayonLinux comes to mind and they post a legal disclaimer that if you do live in a country where these codecs are illegal you should just simply remove them. At least they did, I don't know if they have changed this.

dyne:bolic and Dreamlinux also come to mind....but again the list is long and there is a thread on these Distros in the Other OS Talk forum:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=225095

[Naralas]

1. If you want Ubuntu to know what's most popular, use the popularity-contest package.

2. What you're talking about is already beginning to happen. I tried to play an MP3 in AmaroK, and I was prompted with a password dialogue to install the appropriate package. I didn't have to know the name of the package--AmaroK automatically fetched it for me. This is in Edgy.

3. A lot of distros come with proprietary stuff out-of-the-box: Mepis, PCLinuxOS, Blag, Linspire...

Truth of the matter: if you have the savvy to download and burn an ISO and repartition your drive and install and configure a new operating system, you can figure out how to install some codecs.

And, as I said before, some distros don't even require you to figure it out.


So you (and the other guy who said I was asking for the wrong things) are basically writing off the entire "Linux for Human Beings" thing. Why does Ubuntu even exist then? Allow me to uninstall ubuntu and un-recoomend it to everyone I know including my school board...

[Amaranth]

As far as I know this will work on a default Ubuntu edgy install:
Applications->Add/Remove...
Make sure "All available applications" is selected
Search for 'mp3'
Check 'gstreamer extra codecs'
Click 'Apply'

All done. :)

[Naralas]

As fas as I know it seems easier to go "WTF" and re-install windows before even looking that far.

[Shay Stephens]

As fas as I know it seems easier to go "WTF" and re-install windows before even looking that far.

True, but then when it all hits the fan and you don't have the luxury of time, you will be all stressed out wishing you had tried a smidge harder not so long ago ;)