Will PS3 be a chance for Linux to gain marketshare?

[NoTiG]

We all know that because windows has a stranglehold on OEM's... that the chances of linux getting in without some kind of intervention are slim... at least in the near future. But here we have basically a computer (the Ps3) that will have linux on it by default and will be shipped to millions of users worldwide. So the question is HOW many millions... and how open will the operating system loaded on it be. Will it be like a tivo interface where you wouldn't even be able to tell? or will it be an OS where you can plug in a keyboard possibly through some ports and have Linux at your command.

The reason why this is interesting is because it is in fact in sony's Best interest to KILL microsoft ... since they are their largest competitor in this arena. Therefore it makes sense for them to use Linux, and try to make it as good as possible. I hope that they will even allow you to change the distribution and use others (like Ubuntu) . imagine the worldwide impact that would have if the sony ps3 (with all its nice hardware) would basically replace low end... or even high end computers since its price tag will not be that high in comparison to a computer of equivalent horsepower.

[weatherman]

personally I don't think it will have any effect on desktop linux at all, since average people won't even know which kernel the ps runs. I mean, how many people know what kind of software is running on the ps2?

[henriquemaia]

Will PS3 users know they are running linux in the first place?

[raublekick]

PS3 users will not be able to tell. There have been videos released of the PS3 interface, and it looks nothing like KDE, Gnome, XFCE, a terminal, or any other DE. It's nice and pretty and as functional as Sony needs it to be for what they want.

[cogsprocket]

We all know that because windows has a stranglehold on OEM's... that the chances of linux getting in without some kind of intervention are slim... at least in the near future. But here we have basically a computer (the Ps3) that will have linux on it by default and will be shipped to millions of users worldwide. So the question is HOW many millions... and how open will the operating system loaded on it be. Will it be like a tivo interface where you wouldnt even be able to tell? or will it be an OS where you can plug in a keyboard possibly through some ports and have linux at your command.

The reason why this is interesting is because it is in fact in sony's Best interest to KILL microsoft ... since they are their largest competitor in this arena. Therefor it makes sense for then to use linux, and try to make it as good as possible. I hope that they will even allow you to change the distribution and use others (like ubuntu) . imagine the worldwide impact that would have if the sony ps3 (with all its nice hardware) would basically replace low end... or even high end computers since its price tag will not be that high in comparison to a computer of equivalent horsepower.

Where people get the wrong idea about the PS3 is that though it is Linux powered, that doesn't mean that it's freely available Linux. It's much like buying a commercial grade Cisco router. What you get is not a Linux PC but it's powered by Linux.

See what you get with the PS3 is what Linux has excelled at for more than a decade; an embedded system. Since Linux is free and open source it's a great solution for hardware that needs good, lightweight software to power it. The problem is that while this is free, open source software it's locked inside proprietary hardware. It doesn't really set the stage for a "Linux PC" no matter how many times Sony claims the PS3 is a computer. Think back to the release of the PS2 and it will become even more clear. They made the same claim back then. I don't mean to dash your hopes, but with the proprietary hardware paradigm, you don't have much option for installing a different distro when Sony holds the keys to it's system. Sure someone will probably figure out a way to unlock the system, but... Well you can find much better systems than Linux.

As far as killing Microsoft, while it may be in their best interest it is in no way in our best interest. Three party competition is exactly what any industry needs. Look at the computer hardware industry for a good example. You have Intel and AMD. The two party economic model is a train wreck. You must provide quality at a high price or cut your price dramaticly, but no matter what you do you are in direct competition. In a three party system you're in direct competition with no one so you must innovate and cater to the consumer in order to win support. Sony kills Microsoft, Sony really has to do nothing more than build a better system than Nintendo. There's no concern for the consumer there, and frankly there is very little now.

I've said all that to say this. Despite what you think of a big corporation, they're not inherently evil, but on the flip-side of that coin your best interest are not what they're concerned with. I'm much less entusiastic about the PS3 in regards to their use of Linux because it's really nothing new that a corporation expedites development and saves money by using Linux as an embeded system to power their hardware.

[NoTiG]

Thats a good question. Im not sure. but saying it will have no effect is inaccurate... since essentialy if 50 million are sold, then that is 50 additional linux users whether they know it or not! . Hopefully though... it would be interesting to find out. if they made the ps3 open and hackable i bet it would be a HUGE success. but then there is the DRM issue

[NoTiG]

is an embedded system a really apt title? i would say yes if it was a cisco router... but its basically a computer. It has a hard drive, graphics adapter, cpu, memory, etc.....

basically it could run a desktop linux OS if they wanted it to, along side their proprietary interface. they could put them on separate partitions and keep the proprietary one secret if they wanted. And yes it is in our best interests... but i think its also in theirs as well.

I don't think we really need windows anymore for the competition factor........ since there are already so many linux distros to compete against each other and all. Windows dying would have no impact I think.

[weatherman]

Where people get the wrong idea about the PS3 is that though it is Linux powered, that doesn't mean that it's freely available Linux. It's much like buying a commercial grade Cisco router. What you get is not a Linux PC but it's powered by Linux.

See what you get with the PS3 is what Linux has excelled at for more than a decade; an embedded system. Since Linux is free and open source it's a great solution for hardware that needs good, lightweight software to power it. The problem is that while this is free, open source software it's locked inside proprietary hardware. It doesn't really set the stage for a "Linux PC" no matter how many times Sony claims the PS3 is a computer. Think back to the release of the PS2 and it will become even more clear. They made the same claim back then. I don't mean to dash your hopes, but with the proprietary hardware paradigm, you don't have much option for installing a different distro when Sony holds the keys to it's system. Sure someone will probably figure out a way to unlock the system, but... Well you can find much better systems than Linux.


that's really a shame and it's pretty much why the gpl v3 is needed. well...we all know linux under the gpl v3 isn't going to happen...but man it would be sweet.

[NoTiG]

It seems to me the only thing they have to lose by doing this is: A. perhaps making it easier to copy games
B. Having people by the ps3 just for the hardware and causing them to lose money since they sell it at a loss.

What i propose is for them to just:

Separate the partitions, make one DRM with the games... make the other a full fledged linux OS (ubuntu) .

Make this option only available in a 'bundle' of 1 or two games so they can recoup their hardware costs.

That way the drm will stay drm and the hardware will be usable by linux. Perhaps they could release a couple of hardware specifications to make it work but it think it would be a big deal for ubuntu to try to pull this off

[raublekick]

It seems to me the only thing they have to lose by doing this is: A. perhaps making it easier to copy games
B. Having people by the ps3 just for the hardware and causing them to lose money since they sell it at a loss.

What i propose is for them to just:

Separate the partitions, make one DRM with the games... make the other a full fledged linux OS (ubuntu) .

Make this option only available in a 'bundle' of 1 or two games so they can recoup their hardware costs.

That way the drm will stay drm and the hardware will be usable by linux. Perhaps they could release a couple of hardware specifications to make it work but it think it would be a big deal for ubuntu to try to pull this off


That would definitely not be in Sony's best interest. If they have it set up like this, they would be setting them up for a world of piracy. Look at how easy piracy has been when users don't have full access to the hardware. In this model, users would be able to write and install applications that rip ISOs from the Blue Ray drive. And since they have direct access to the hardware, they would be able to run it and bypass the DRM stuff anyways.

[NoTiG]

A couple of things... There has to be a way for them to make it just as hard to pirate the games this way. Im sure theres a way. Also, as yous aid people are going to pirate regardless... eventually. The question is does it really hurt sales. I doubt it. its the same as the music industry... its not like p2p really hurts record sales... and in fact there is a good chance it can actually improve them. If they did this, the PS3 would be so popular microsoft would cry.

[cogsprocket]

is an embedded system a really apt title? i would say yes if it was a cisco router... but its basically a computer. It has a hard drive, graphics adapter, cpu, memory, etc.....

basically it could run a desktop linux OS if they wanted it to, along side their proprietary interface. they could put them on separate partitions and keep the proprietary one secret if they wanted. And yes it is in our best interests... but i think its also in theirs as well.

I don't think we really need windows anymore for the competition factor........ since there are already so many linux distros to compete against each other and all. Windows dying would have no impact I think.

See, that's where the real question comes into play. A Cisco router is essentially a computer. A graphics adapter, and hard drive do not a computer make. Will they run a desktop Linux OS on a secret partition? Probably not. It's a well known secret that it's difficult to keep secrets. That's not the intention of the PS3, and in all honesty, it'd be cheaper just to buy a PS2 and the Linux kit if that's what you wanted. Short story is they tried that and it wasn't profitable so it's been canned. Yes, it's an embedded system.

In our best interests, I don't really think so. I'm not stating it as a matter of opinion, I'm looking at it from a broader view. As much as I don't like a world where Microsoft is the only option, I'm not big on taking one down and replacing it with another. Sony doesn't have your best interests in mind. If they did you'd be getting the PS3 at a much lower price, with more features. In a world where the content you buy is encrypted so you can't really control it and the software you buy is licensed so you can't really own, it nothing is done with your interest in mind unless it's explicitly done so.

[cogsprocket]

that's really a shame and it's pretty much why the gpl v3 is needed. well...we all know linux under the gpl v3 isn't going to happen...but man it would be sweet.

You knew exactly what I was saying and why I was saying it. Good on you for keeping up with the politics of the systems you use.

[NoTiG]

I agree that they don't necessarily have our best interestes in mind. but i think it is actually in their best interest.... to have a full fledged linux os... and I am willing to bet that making it easier to pirate would also improve their sales by a large margin. So regardless of whether they could, or couldnt make it harder to pirate i think its a win win situation for them.

[The Noble]

As far as I'm concerned the ps3 is great for linux for gaming. I don't mean that the use of linux in it is big or anything, but the integration of opengl (modified slightly) could pan out. While linux gets more popular, some ports may be in order (think unreal 2007 on a linux system), so gamers may be able to actually use linux now.

[PapaWiskas]

Sony better wise up real fast and rethink their pricing, or they arent going to get the marketshare on anything.

600.00 bucks is ridiculous for a console, next gen or not.

[Kateikyoushi]

In my opinion there will be plenty of people who try to install an OS on the PS3 they even tried it with the PSP.

I really hope we will be able to pull it off because I want to edit HD videos in real time on the cell.:rolleyes:

[hizaguchi]

I don't think it'll help Sony gain marketshare, much less Linux.

[amo-ej1]

with the current delays sony really has lost a lot of marketshare so there's a lot to gain back ;)

[paul cooke]

the PS3 may be Linux powered, but you can bet your bottom dollar that sales won't count when it comes to OS marketshare...

[Kateikyoushi]

It is not a PC so of course it won't count in OS marketshare.
But who gives a damn whether it counts or not if I can use it instead of my desktop. :twisted:

[bastiegast]

As already said, if the PS3 is -at least- linux based, game devs will be making games for a linux based system. Wont those games be easy to port to linux? Not saying all game devs will now port their games linux it it will at least be easier, wouldn't it?

[Kateikyoushi]

Given the architectural differences I am not sure porting from PS3 to PC is that trivial to make it worth the effort.

[rowanparker]

I don't think it will make much difference although I'll be able to show off what Linux is capable of.

I'm just going to use my computer for computing and get a Wii for gaming, much cheaper and better. :D

[cogsprocket]

As already said, if the PS3 is -at least- linux based, game devs will be making games for a linux based system. Wont those games be easy to port to linux? Not saying all game devs will now port their games linux it it will at least be easier, wouldn't it?

I really don't think so. First you have to consider the amount of proprietary code going into building the software that powers the PS3. We're not talking about a system that is powered by a vanilla build of Gentoo or Xandros here, this is some highly screwed around with code. You also have to question how much of the software is actually doing the work. Is the software there to power the online experience and access files on the hard drive or is it there to facilitate the game's runtime. Either way there are huge differences to be overcome before a game can be ported.

[NoTiG]

I doubt porting would be a big deal... their API is based on opengl so if they ported opengl to run on their system that easily im sure they could do vice versa no problem

[maniacmusician]

console games and pc games are very different in how they utilize the resources of the system. Don't want to go into a long winded explanation, but wikipedia will probably have more information. Consoles and PCs handle data differently...so i dont know how easy it would be to port games. probably, significant amounts of code would have to be rewritten at the very least.

[Kateikyoushi]

I doubt porting would be a big deal... their API is based on opengl so if they ported opengl to run on their system that easily im sure they could do vice versa no problem

And all we need to run a game is opengl right ?

About the hardware check an average gaming machine's memory and the PS3's.
It is built around a totally different idea than the PCs.

[NoTiG]

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=16197
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/pr...delivery.shtml
Yellow Dog Linux 5 has been announced. Surprisingly, it will first be released for Sony's Playstation 3, and then later for PPC Macs. Yellow Dog Linux 5 for the Playstation 3 will use E17 as its desktop environment (YDL's page on E17), which will be a boost to E17's adoption rate. Sony had mentioned the PS3 would include Linux in some capacity, but it has been unclear how Linux would fit into the rest of the system.

So it looks like ps3 will use yellowdog. lets just hope they don't handicap it

[cogsprocket]

http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=16197
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/pr...delivery.shtml
Yellow Dog Linux 5 has been announced. Surprisingly, it will first be released for Sony's Playstation 3, and then later for PPC Macs. Yellow Dog Linux 5 for the Playstation 3 will use E17 as its desktop environment (YDL's page on E17), which will be a boost to E17's adoption rate. Sony had mentioned the PS3 would include Linux in some capacity, but it has been unclear how Linux would fit into the rest of the system.

So it looks like ps3 will use yellowdog. lets just hope they don't handicap it

Terrasoft is developing a version of YDL 5 for the PS3. YDL 5 is not the version of Linux that powers the PS3.

[The Noble]

I would actually consider buying a ps3 in the future if they got linux working without many limitations (lack of blu ray playing is fine by me). Homebrew would be beautiful, and with the ps3 using OpenGl (slightly modified) it would make it quite a bit easier to port than some Xbox360 DirectX 9.5 game. Depends how open the system is in general too, but what I would actually look for is homebrew being ported to pcs. Proprietary could be a mixed bag, I don't have my hopes high at all.

Also, heres me wishing drivers will be up to snuff when UT2007 is released for linux. T'will be a beast of epic proportions, and will be taxing on even the beafiest machines with fully optimized drivers.

[calx]

Wonder no more.. http://ps3.ign.com/articles/739/739688p1.html

[Terracotta]

Nice, now's the next question :rolleyes: , will there be an ubuntu/xubuntu/kubuntu version for it as well:mrgreen: . Mjammie, smullie mjammie, drewling. ok, I should get back on earth, not going to happen :'(.

[schurtek]

Does this not mean that PS3 games will be easy to port into Linux.... me thinks me likes?

[nemixer]

I hate sony attitude, but I have to admit that having a full linux it's likely to make easier to copy a game.. probably to easy.

[schurtek]

I hate sony attitude, but I have to admit that having a full linux it's likely to make easier to copy a game.. probably to easy.

Not necassarily... just because a server runs a pure linux kernel and you are able to see the code used to impliment the security doesn't mean that the server is not secure... same applies to copy protection of games...

But there will always be away around everything... I remember as a child... this guy that worked with my father used to make and sell copied Atari Cartridges... he had an EEPROM reader/writer and made his own cartridge cards and copied the games from one card to another...

[cogsprocket]

Wonder no more.. http://ps3.ign.com/articles/739/739688p1.html

I still don't think this sort of thing really counts as grabbing substantial market share. I mean it's a lot like the PS2 Linux. Simply because PS2 Linux meant you could get a Linux system for around $400-500 didn't mean that Linux had suddenly come to the market in a grand way. PS2 Linx was a complete flop.

Not to mention the same thing happened with the Xbox. Just because you could get Xbox Linux on sourceforge didn't then make it a viable means of bringing Linux to the masses. Consider that in addition to the hardware for bringing the system online was cheaper than its PS2 counterpart, the Xbox Linux software was absolutely free.

Now people are going to pay $600 for a system and then make the risky move of putting YellowDog on it? I don't think it really answers the initial question. Especially when you consider that the initial question was that does the initial purchase of a PS3 powered by the proprietary Sony Linux code constitute marketshare for Linux.

Really, I just don't see where PS3 YellowDog is a good answer to the question of making inroads into the market with Linux. I know I've been kind of negative in this thread, but it's my opinion that Linux on a console is a novelty, not a good approach to adoption. I can put Linux on my old Xbox and have a grand old time playing around with my new Linux toy, but does that bring me any closer to using Linux on my desktop? Not really, because while my Linux Xbox was a fun little experiment it doesn't really provide me with any exposition at all to what Linux can do as the primary operating system for my PC.

I refer you back to my initial router illustration. If I have a Unix powered firewall or router that embedded system serves a great purpose but it is so task oriented I'll never see the true power of Unix. For the same reason I see most people other than those who are already fairly familiar with Linux being completely ignorant of the fact that their PS3 runs on Linux let alone that there is a Linux solution that was relased on the launch date of the PS3.

In the end, while this is a nice novelty, I really think more time could be spent in trying to gain mindshare for Ubuntu. It's great to see all these cool things that Linux is capable of running on, but in the end if you really hope to gain marketshare there need to be level-headed Ubuntu evangelists and apologists out there making headway into bringing new people into the fold. That's the reason I chose Ubuntu to support. Not because I thought it was perfect or powerful. I chose to support Ubuntu because it's the best Linux distro I have found for bringing new users into the world of personal-use Linux.

[Carrots171]

I still don't think this sort of thing really counts as grabbing substantial market share. I mean it's a lot like the PS2 Linux. Simply because PS2 Linux meant you could get a Linux system for around $400-500 didn't mean that Linux had suddenly come to the market in a grand way. PS2 Linx was a complete flop.

Not to mention the same thing happened with the Xbox. Just because you could get Xbox Linux on sourceforge didn't then make it a viable means of bringing Linux to the masses. Consider that in addition to the hardware for bringing the system online was cheaper than its PS2 counterpart, the Xbox Linux software was absolutely free.

Now people are going to pay $600 for a system and then make the risky move of putting YellowDog on it? I don't think it really answers the initial question. Especially when you consider that the initial question was that does the initial purchase of a PS3 powered by the proprietary Sony Linux code constitute marketshare for Linux.

Really, I just don't see where PS3 YellowDog is a good answer to the question of making inroads into the market with Linux. I know I've been kind of negative in this thread, but it's my opinion that Linux on a console is a novelty, not a good approach to adoption. I can put Linux on my old Xbox and have a grand old time playing around with my new Linux toy, but does that bring me any closer to using Linux on my desktop? Not really, because while my Linux Xbox was a fun little experiment it doesn't really provide me with any exposition at all to what Linux can do as the primary operating system for my PC.

I refer you back to my initial router illustration. If I have a Unix powered firewall or router that embedded system serves a great purpose but it is so task oriented I'll never see the true power of Unix. For the same reason I see most people other than those who are already fairly familiar with Linux being completely ignorant of the fact that their PS3 runs on Linux let alone that there is a Linux solution that was relased on the launch date of the PS3.

In the end, while this is a nice novelty, I really think more time could be spent in trying to gain mindshare for Ubuntu. It's great to see all these cool things that Linux is capable of running on, but in the end if you really hope to gain marketshare there need to be level-headed Ubuntu evangelists and apologists out there making headway into bringing new people into the fold. That's the reason I chose Ubuntu to support. Not because I thought it was perfect or powerful. I chose to support Ubuntu because it's the best Linux distro I have found for bringing new users into the world of personal-use Linux.

I agree. Versions of Linux for the Xbox and the PS2 have been around for years and AFAIK have had no significant impact on Linux's market share. What makes Linux for the PS3 any different?

[Rhubarb]

Erm, doesn't the PS3 run a powerpc cell processor?
So wouldn't that make games difficult to run on a typical x86 linux box?

[justin whitaker]

Erm, doesn't the PS3 run a powerpc cell processor?
So wouldn't that make games difficult to run on a typical x86 linux box?

Yes. The game would have to be ported to x86, or an emulator would have to be written.

[NoTiG]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_2

I guess sony was smart after all. "This is not an application-limited appliance," Staats said. "This is a full-blown computer. There is no issue of 'can it do this or that?' It can do everything."



And for those willing to download the software over the Internet, the Yellow Dog operating system will be available for free


For those interested in the convenience of buying software off the shelf, Terra Soft will also offer a version to be sold next to the Playstation 3 in retail environments.

Looks like i was right after all!

According to wiki, playstation 2 has shipped over 105 million units. Ps 3 is projected to be a release that will last into the future even longer than 2, like 10 years or something. We can expect to see the units going for at least that many. And if its free to install linux onto it, then I am sure we can expect at least half will install. That would put over 50 million people using yellow dog linux, which as i said would make enlightenment more popular than gnome and KDE.

[cogsprocket]

Wait...

At least half are going to install Linux on their PS3? Where are you getting this imaginary statistic? People are really not that enthusiastic about installing an operating system on their console. I mean it's FREE to install Linux on their existing outdated systems yet there isn't a 50% marketshare of Linux. A new device that will run Linux is not anything new. Really, let it go man... You can say "I was right after all!" all you want, but the numbers are not there even though the materials are there. PS3 is not the avenue to get people into working Linux. I can say with absolute confidence that an overwhelming majority of PS3 owners will use it as a console and nothing else no matter what Sony says.

Think back 5 years ago. The "Playstation is a computer" argument has been used before and I really don't buy that just because Sony puts a console out that you can freely install Linux on will cause people to run out in droves to purchase Linux even if it's right beside the PS3 glaring at them in the face. If it were that simple Suse, Mandriva and RedHat would have made a much bigger impact on the PC market than they have considering the fact that years ago you could pick up RedHat and Mandriva (then Mandrake) in your local Circuit City and that the local Best Buy has not quickly sold out of Suse 10 even though the boxes are sitting neatly on the shelf.

This is classic OEM marketing. People don't generally change their system because, frankly, what's on there works. By no means am I a Windows bigot, but this is the biggest problem facing Linux right now. Manufacturers pack their systems with software that works on that system. This is why the infamous Windows driver hunt when you reinstall. Out of the box the system was preconfigured to work. Such will be the same with the PS3. It's an alien notion to use what is sitting on the shelf by the other competing consoles as a PC and I have $200 that says that PS3 YellowDog gains 10% install base on the PS3.

I'm telling you, I will PAY you if it happens. I'm that confident that it won't happen. Besides I would much rather see Linux gain share on a platform that matters. I'll say it again. Linux on a console is a novelty, it's not an advancement.

[NoTiG]

okay, you made your point but..... supposedly the linux on earlier Play stations was handicapped or whatever. And this one is different. and your guess of 10% isn't that bad for linux either.... if ps3 sells over 100 million :P

In my opinion, the PS3 will be easy to install through one click on peoples playstations so it doesnt seem like it will be hard. also its not really "replacing" anything else, like linux replaces microsoft on desktop. It is just expanding the functionality of your device.

I do have a couple of skeptical thoughts on the matter.... one is that using your tv as a computer monitor kind of sucks... because the pixel pitch is so bad. Reading text isnt that fun... besides tvs are in such large typical use that who would be able to use their ps3 as a computer while the tv is on.... Who will be bothered to buy a keyboard and mouse to go along with their console? It would be cool if the ps3 could output to an HDTV and simultaneously an LCD terminal. Also the 256 MB of ram only seems dismal

Just curious, does anyone know if the ps3 will have dvi ports or any output to an LCD screen?