Kubuntu and Xubuntu are mistakes?

[prizrak]

Here is something that I have been thinking about (mostly because of some recent experiences). Right now there are four official Ubuntu editions:
Ubuntu
Edubuntu
Kubuntu
Xubuntu

Now I do believe that it is nice that we have both major DE's and a special light weight DE for slower/older/overoptimized machines.

However resources are not infinite and I believe that by supporting three DE's at once Canonical is spreading itself too thin. I don't think that Kubuntu and Xubuntu should be dropped but I do think that they should be maintained by the community itself and not Canonical. Also a downloadable base install CD would be a nice idea.

I think that OS editions should be created based on functionality not DE. There is Edubuntu, which is for educational purposes and has specialized software to that end. There is Medical Ubuntu. I really think that Ubuntu is missing an Ubuntu Tablet Edition and Media Center. I understand that those are MS names so something else might be in order but I'm talking about the principal here.

Since the prices of the tablets went down we should see more people getting those. As it stands Ubuntu is pretty bad on them with the lack of a decent on screen keyboard and handwriting recognition as well as inability to calibrate the tablet (at least I couldn't find it). Also the tablet edition should come with GIS software and all the drivers possible for GPS devices as tablets are pretty big in the GIS field.

Thanks to MS, HTPC's are getting pretty popular lately and I see no reason why Ubuntu shouldn't cater to that. An install the comes with MythTV and all the TV tuners and remote drivers currently available (with more being added to the repos) would be very well recieved by pretty much everyone. Codecs are an issue of course but can be acuqired the same way they are now either through one of the scripts, the directions in the wiki or using gstreamer for everything possible. Also all the popular MythTV plugins should be in the repos (save for ones that raise legal questions).

I see the following benefits from the above:
1) Tablets
- Enable more users to switch to Ubuntu (currently impossible w/o losing alot of functionality)
- Penetration into college campuses and small companies that use GIS for business
- Possibly Ubuntu preloaded tablet PC's from System76 and others

2) HTPC
- Easy and cheap way to set up an HTPC == more users (always good)
- A good way to show off what Linux can do. MythTV interface and functionality is light years ahead of MS and I believe slightly ahead of TiVo.
- Cheap PVR's if Canonical can strike some deals with hardware makers
- Penetration into a market where there no absolute leader has emerged yet

Well this is what I think for the most part and as stated above that is based on my personal experience of not being able to do something with Ubuntu. At the very least not easily.

[.t.]

I truly agree with you on all your points. Kubuntu and Edubuntu are essentially metapackages (as is the Ubuntu desktop), built upon a base system. You can install this base system with the server and alternate CDs. It is the base system that needs work and expertise and Canonical could concentrate on that, and perhaps bug-fixing for the rest of the package set, especially [kx]ubuntu-desktop dependencies. However, the metapackages could be maintained by the community, and perhaps new features could be added by the devs. I dunno. I hate to see resources spent in not the most efficient way, but it's hard to find a better compromise.

[Sushi]

Let's just say that I disagree with you. Other versions of Ubuntu don't really take that much resources. Mostly the distros are identical, they use the same infrastructure. I believe Canonical has one guy who focuses on KDE, Jonathan Riddel. I belive it's more or less the same for Xubuntu. And the artwork-team obviously creates artwork for each version. Now, are you saying that Ubuntu is being harmed because of that work? Would Ubuntu be better off if Jonathan Riddel was booted off, and the artwork-team focused on Ubuntu alone? I doubt it.


Since the prices of the tablets went down we should see more people getting those....

What is it with the obsession with tablets? They are a solution searching for a problem. I HAVE used tablet. And I honestly don't see the point. By paying more you get a machine with crappier screen and a feature that doesn't really offer anything. So you can write on the screen. And that's useful because... ?

Touchscreens make sense in PDA's and the like. I have yet to see one valid reason why having them in a general-purpose computer is a good idea.


Thanks to MS, HTPC's are getting pretty popular lately and I see no reason why Ubuntu shouldn't cater to that.

Now this is something I DO agree with you :). Besides offering a HTPC-client, I think that Ubuntu-server should offer functionality to act as a HTPC-server. It could stream media to HTPC-clients, it could transcode media and so forth. And it should work seamlessly with Ubuntu HTPC-clients.

[Kateikyoushi]

Now this is something I DO agree with you :). Besides offering a HTPC-client, I think that Ubuntu-server should offer functionality to act as a HTPC-server. It could stream media to HTPC-clients, it could transcode media and so forth. And it should work seamlessly with Ubuntu HTPC-clients.

That made my mouth water we currently have an xp for HTPC and wouldn't mind changing it, but it is the same what you wrote about art.
Creating a HTPC distro seems harder to me than just use kde or another WM as gui.


I do not think going for tablets is necessary, their market share isn't significant and with lacking drivers might not worth it.

[paul cooke]

Canonical & Mark can spend their money where they want... stop trying to tell them what to spend it on. If they want to spend money supporting Xubuntu and Kubuntu then that is their right.

[aysiu]

If you think resources are tight, try donating some money...

[3rdalbum]

Xubuntu is basically a community distro, as betas for it don't come out at the same time, and Xubuntu 6.06.1 itself is not supported by Canonical.

[mips]

I think you are wrong and biased towards a certain DM.

If it was up to me and I was aked what they should drop I would say Ubuntu as I don't use gnome. But thats just me.

[alecjw]

Since U/Ku/Xubuntu use the same package repositories, why can't there be on CD (or DVD) for all of them? It should ask you during the install which desktop environment(s) you want.

[arkangel]

i like the idea of a base cd , so you can add as many as DE you want but a distro must contain a DE by default , among other things i believe ubuntu is popular because of gnome , I agree Ubuntu should have a gnome as default , and if you like KDE or XFCE just do the apt-get thing , for table pc ,some people like them (the weird ones) in fact it should be other modules just to be added to the kernel , if many linux fans get a table pc, some guy will develop the drivers (I've seen thousands of Notebooks but only 2 or 3 Table pc )

[.t.]

For a nice simple base system, get the server CD.

[maniacmusician]

as someone else said, it doesnt really take much to maintain something like X/Kubuntu because it's based on the ubuntu framework. Everything is basically the same. the majority of the work is done by the community anyways. what I mean is, the ubuntu devs just make changes to the ubuntu infrastructure (regardless of DE), and that gets inmplemented in all of its derivatives.

I do agree with your statement that more thought should be given to specialized distro. and the best part is, since it's all buntu in the end, any changes they make will be applied everywhere (such as Kubuntu Tablet Edition or Xubuntu Media Center)

[prizrak]

What is it with the obsession with tablets? They are a solution searching for a problem. I HAVE used tablet. And I honestly don't see the point. By paying more you get a machine with crappier screen and a feature that doesn't really offer anything. So you can write on the screen. And that's useful because... ?

Touchscreens make sense in PDA's and the like. I have yet to see one valid reason why having them in a general-purpose computer is a good idea.

I will respond to both parts of your question at once. I got a convertible (Tablet + Laptop in one) for the same price with the same specs as I was gonna get a Thinkpad. Whether the tablets make sense or not is kind of irrelevant as they seem to be quite well liked by people if for no other reason than "coolness" so Ubuntu should be able to work with them.

What are tablets for?
1) Artists - I have yet to see one artist whose medium of choice is computers and who wouldn't want a tablet to work on.
2) GIS/field applications - Digitizing a map with the mouse is a pain in the butt, and I have only done a map of an area of like a square mile. Tablets are used quite extensively in the field where the ability to write (or type on an on-screen kbd) is very important as there may not be a chance to sit down with a laptop. Also they tend to be connected to big GPS backpacks for city planning, a very important niche.
3) Law enforcement makes extensive use of tablets - NYC cops use Panasonic toughbooks right now. Organizational adoption is key to OS success so I think it's important.


If you think resources are tight, try donating some money...
That is beside the point. I meant human resources not monetary.

I think you are wrong and biased towards a certain DM.

If it was up to me and I was aked what they should drop I would say Ubuntu as I don't use gnome. But thats just me.
I have no bias whatsoever I use just about any GUI that is supplied and don't care too much what it is. Ubuntu was the first one and used Gnome for default so I used that as the one to stick with. I do believe that KDE is a bit overwhelming to set up for a new user and XFCE is too different so the learning curve is increased.

I've seen thousands of Notebooks but only 2 or 3 Table pc
When the 286 portables came out no one thought that their sales would overtake regular desktops. It is a fresh market where MS isn't a monopolist and is good opportunity for Linux based OS's to exploit. As well as HTPC.


That made my mouth water we currently have an xp for HTPC and wouldn't mind changing it, but it is the same what you wrote about art.
Creating a HTPC distro seems harder to me than just use kde or another WM as gui.


Not really, an HTPC distro would just have to include MythTV (or some other program like that) and drivers for DVR cards along with remote controls. All the semi legal codec stuff can be user addable through Automatix-like scripts.

[compres]

I think you are wrong and biased towards a certain DM.

If it was up to me and I was aked what they should drop I would say Ubuntu as I don't use gnome. But thats just me.

This is my case also, since I prefer kde to gnome.

Seems like the original poster likes gnome and he can't care less about support for the other mayor DE. I like how things are currently, ubuntu and kubuntu for different tastes.

[mips]

Would be nice if you could get a dvd with all the DM on it so you can choose for yourself at install time.

[zenwhen]

I complained about these same things when Kubuntu became an official project. I still feel the same way, but gave up on it a long time ago. I did originally come to Ubuntu because they were not splitting their resources between KDE and Gnome. I will never want to use KDE, and love Gnome more and more every release.

I stayed with Ubuntu because it was, and still is the best distro out there for my needs.

I will be very honest though... I love to see a distro that has feature parity with Ubuntu (a fork perhaps) come about that focuses only on providing a perfect Gnome desktop.

[deeptingler]

We all know the saying that "Variety is the spice of life...."

I originally started out on an Amiga all those years ago and had to re-learn things for Windows 95 usage. Here I am now, a decade later, trained into how Windows works.

Hmmm, I want to try Ubuntu.....

Gnome, Nice but too restrictive, I felt like I was using a MacOS/Amiga style machine but wanted to try KDE as Gnome was becoming to frustrating for me (my own personal opinion by the way)

I tried Kubuntu instead, and this one has been on my machine ever since. It is more intuitive IMHO if you have come from Windows (and that is where a lot of new users come from...), therefore it would be a bad idea to drop this as a standard supported option.

On the whole, I personally believe it is great that we are given the option of whether to use Gnome or KDE and that packages/framework are shared throughout.

Who knows? Tomorrow I might decide I don't like KDE and wish to revert to Gnome? I have been given that choice!

[K.Mandla]

I'm afraid I don't see the logic: Jettison Xubuntu and Kubuntu because tablets are becoming popular?

Seems to me that if, as you say, tablets become more mainstream, the greater number of tablet users will make a larger breakaway base for tablet Ubuntu users.

So in that sense, rather than trying to reroute development efforts away from something proven -- a X/Kubuntu user base -- toward something as yet unproven -- the possiblity of a tablet explosion -- doesn't seem to mesh.

I think if/when tablets take over, we'll see more people contributing toward Tabluntu. Dropping two established DE's to guide Ubuntu's evolution doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Just my $0.02, which is only worth exactly that. ;)

[Sushi]

I will respond to both parts of your question at once. I got a convertible (Tablet + Laptop in one) for the same price with the same specs as I was gonna get a Thinkpad. Whether the tablets make sense or not is kind of irrelevant as they seem to be quite well liked by people if for no other reason than "coolness" so Ubuntu should be able to work with them.

they are not well liked by people. i mean, overwhelming majority is not getting tablets. they are getting regural laptops instead.


What are tablets for?
1) Artists - I have yet to see one artist whose medium of choice is computers and who wouldn't want a tablet to work on.

the thing artists want is the "pen & touchpad"-thingy (it's name escapes me at the moment) that replaces mouse, they are not interested in tablets as such. and since tablets have crappier screens, i would say that artists would steer clear of tablets.


2) GIS/field applications - Digitizing a map with the mouse is a pain in the butt, and I have only done a map of an area of like a square mile.

a niche, hardly worth wasting resources for. if some oem wants to create syztem for such an use, they are free to do so. it's not ubuntus place to do it, however.




another niche best served by specialized oem.

[quote]I do believe that KDE is a bit overwhelming to set up for a new user

since it doesnt need any specific "setting up", i dont know what you are referring to here


When the 286 portables came out no one thought that their sales would overtake regular desktops. It is a fresh market where MS isn't a monopolist and is good opportunity for Linux based OS's to exploit.

tablets are just a subset of laptops. and laptops are totally dominated by microsoft. including tablets.

[Sushi]

I complained about these same things when Kubuntu became an official project. I still feel the same way, but gave up on it a long time ago. I did originally come to Ubuntu because they were not splitting their resources between KDE and Gnome. I will never want to use KDE, and love Gnome more and more every release.

I stayed with Ubuntu because it was, and still is the best distro out there for my needs.

I will be very honest though... I love to see a distro that has feature parity with Ubuntu (a fork perhaps) come about that focuses only on providing a perfect Gnome desktop.

so, you feel that existence of kde and kubuntu has somehow harmed ubuntu? how so? and is you personal choice of desktops a valid reason to hope for kubuntu to disappear? i use ubuntu as well, but i really value the existence of kde and kubuntu

[aysiu]

There would be a lot of unhappy people if Ubuntu dropped support for XFCE and KDE.

Hello, Mepis and DreamLinux. Goodbye, Ubuntu.

[prizrak]

hey are not well liked by people. i mean, overwhelming majority is not getting tablets. they are getting regural laptops instead.

Actually I have seen much more people with tablets lately and have been approached by a few people when I was using my system in tablet mode asking me about where it can be obtained and how much it would cost.

The artist thing you are talking about is a Wacom tablet same as the one in the tablet PC's. If you check log entries of alot of webcomic artists you will see that alot of them are using actual tablet PC's and not just a tablet hooked up to a computer. When I was picking out my tablet I read a bunch of reviews with about half from artists. One of the artists actually said that while the Wacom tablet is nice it is difficult to get used to looking at the screen and drawing on a pad. I personally think that your opinion is wrong but you are entitled to it.

2All:
I didn't mean to say that XFCE and KDE should be dropped, I just don't think that calling it Kubuntu or Xubuntu that because it uses a different DE is not the way to go. This creates an image that they are different, while in reality they are pretty much the same. I belive that OS's should be named based on functionality, Tabluntu (as someone called it) or HTbuntu would make more sense. There really is no reason to have Kubuntu, Xubuntu and Ubuntu. It's simple enough to have a base install that would apt-get *ubuntu-desktop for those who want to have Xubuntu or Kubuntu. For those who want a full CD image (probably people with consistent net access) there could be community maintained mirrors that would have those.

Basically I think that the GUI part of Linux is too insignificant to warrant a different name.

Anyways I don't think I'm making much sense I need a nap :)

[pelle.k]

If it weren't for kubuntu, i would not be using *buntu anymore. It is simply _the_ best kde out there. I must say the same about xubuntu, it's simply the best xfce distro.
I run gnome on archlinux though... ;)

now that i think about it, maybe a completely diffrent name would be fresh. still with the full support from canonical, and it'd still share the ubuntu-base though...

[aysiu]

I don't agree Kubuntu and Xubuntu are the best KDE and XFCE respectively (I would vote for Mepis and DreamLinux), but I would, in fact, stop using Ubuntu if they didn't continue to develop Kubuntu and Xubuntu.

[punkinside]

I don't agree Kubuntu and Xubuntu are the best KDE and XFCE respectively (I would vote for Mepis and DreamLinux), but I would, in fact, stop using Ubuntu if they didn't continue to develop Kubuntu and Xubuntu.

Why? Which one do you use?

This is the age old argument why ship it when you can apt-get it... if it went down to it we'd all be doing server installs

[aysiu]

Actually, at the moment, I'm stuck on IceWM, but I like the distro getting behind KDE and XFCE.

It's one thing to just have the package available. It's far better to have it really supported. You can
sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install xubuntu-desktop and know you're getting a nice, polished XFCE. If you do
sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install icewm it's not quite as impressive.

At various points, though, I've used all three of the big ones--Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu.

[argie]

This argument seems something like a small-scale version of "Why so many distros? Isn't the Linux community spreading itself thin?".

The way I see it, there are people at Canonical who like working with KDE and XFCE, so let them be, especially since I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, only the DEs are different.

[Sushi]

Actually I have seen much more people with tablets lately

And they are still an overwhelming minority.


The artist thing you are talking about is a Wacom tablet same as the one in the tablet PC's.

While they do the same thing, they are NOT the same. With tablet, you need to hold the computer in your lap. With Wacom, you do not.


I didn't mean to say that XFCE and KDE should be dropped, I just don't think that calling it Kubuntu or Xubuntu that because it uses a different DE is not the way to go. This creates an image that they are different, while in reality they are pretty much the same. I belive that OS's should be named based on functionality, Tabluntu (as someone called it) or HTbuntu would make more sense.

How would "tabluntu" make sense? Tablets are just a subtype of laptops, nothing more, nothing less. Why should tablets receive some kind of special attention? Should we then have "Deskbuntu" (optimized for desktops), "lapbuntu" (optimized for proper laptops) and "slowbuntu" (optimized for slow hardware)? Where does it end? "AMDbuntu"? "Intelbuntu"?

Why do tablets deserve a separate version, but desktops do not? Or KDE or GNOME for that matter either? It seems to me that there is a pet-technology of your (tablets), and you feel that Ubuntu should focus on that particular piece of hardware.


Basically I think that the GUI part of Linux is too insignificant to warrant a different name.

So you feel that the defining feature of the OS does not warrant a new name, but creating a version for subtype of a subtype (tablet is a subtype of notebook, notebook is a subtype of computer) DOES warrant a new name?

[aysiu]

Why don't people ever make the "too many chefs in one kitchen" argument instead of beating this "reinventing the wheel" argument to death?

[henriquemaia]

I just don't get which part is difficult to understand in

freedom
of
choice

;)

[Reshin]

I just don't get which part is difficult to understand in

freedom
of
choice

;)
con
fu
sion

:neutral:

[henriquemaia]

con
fu
sion

:neutral:

Welcome to the Bazaar.

[prizrak]

And they are still an overwhelming minority.



While they do the same thing, they are NOT the same. With tablet, you need to hold the computer in your lap. With Wacom, you do not.



How would "tabluntu" make sense? Tablets are just a subtype of laptops, nothing more, nothing less. Why should tablets receive some kind of special attention? Should we then have "Deskbuntu" (optimized for desktops), "lapbuntu" (optimized for proper laptops) and "slowbuntu" (optimized for slow hardware)? Where does it end? "AMDbuntu"? "Intelbuntu"?

Why do tablets deserve a separate version, but desktops do not? Or KDE or GNOME for that matter either? It seems to me that there is a pet-technology of your (tablets), and you feel that Ubuntu should focus on that particular piece of hardware.



So you feel that the defining feature of the OS does not warrant a new name, but creating a version for subtype of a subtype (tablet is a subtype of notebook, notebook is a subtype of computer) DOES warrant a new name?
Why do you agree on HTbuntu then? There are very few users of both tablets and HTPC's. So why agree that HTbuntu makes sense and Tabluntu does not? HTPC is nothing but a PC with a PVR card and a TV out (hell most video cards nowadays come with TV out of some sort).

If you want to see the difference and a reason for a special distro use a tablet with Ubuntu (fully supported hardware) and XP Tablet you will see the difference in functionality.

Aysiu,
I never said there should be no kubuntu-desktop and xubuntu-desktop. In fact my point was that it's easy enough to apt-get *buntu-desktop to really warrant two different official versions.

[prizrak]

I just don't get which part is difficult to understand in

freedom
of
choice

;)

I don't understand which part is hard for you

Freedom
of
Speech

A.K.A. This is my opinion, take as you like.

[prizrak]

This argument seems something like a small-scale version of "Why so many distros? Isn't the Linux community spreading itself thin?".

The way I see it, there are people at Canonical who like working with KDE and XFCE, so let them be, especially since I don't think it's a big deal. I mean, only the DEs are different.

Do me a favor and read my original post. I said nothing there about dropping the other DE's I simply said that there is no point in calling Ubuntu with KDE, Kubuntu and that the community could work on those while Canonical can tackle things like Tablet and HTPC stuff, which requires a bit of weight to throw around to get hardware makers to at the very least provide hardware drivers. Something that a corporation can try to do but community would have a hard time.

[aysiu]

Aysiu,
I never said there should be no kubuntu-desktop and xubuntu-desktop. In fact my point was that it's easy enough to apt-get *buntu-desktop to really warrant two different official versions. So you don't mean that Kubuntu and Xubuntu are mistakes but only that shipping them as CDs or ISOs is a mistake?

If you put all the work into polishing a metapackage like that, is it that much more work to make it a CD?

And, by the way, I do think the CDs are worth having... or the ISOs, in any case. This was the same debate people had about Ubuntu Christian Edition. I very much believe there should be out-of-the-box CDs (or ISOs) for different versions--Medical Ubuntu, Edubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc. People should not be made to do a server install and then aptitude install an entire desktop environment.

[maniacmusician]

as far as i can glean, his point is not that there shouldnt be all these different flavors, but that they should be maintained by the community.

he thinks that canonical should spend their efforts on stuff like new technology, hardware, while the community maintains the derivative distros of ubuntu.

[prizrak]

So you don't mean that Kubuntu and Xubuntu are mistakes but only that shipping them as CDs or ISOs is a mistake?

If you put all the work into polishing a metapackage like that, is it that much more work to make it a CD?

And, by the way, I do think the CDs are worth having... or the ISOs, in any case. This was the same debate people had about Ubuntu Christian Edition. I very much believe there should be out-of-the-box CDs (or ISOs) for different versions--Medical Ubuntu, Edubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc. People should not be made to do a server install and then aptitude install an entire desktop environment.

You are basically right, another thing is that KDE version is called something else while not providing any extra functionality. Basically all GUI's are the same, the underlying OS doesn't change so why would the name be different? Like I said before SuSE has both KDE and Gnome available, they didn't branch the distro.

As far as GUI goes I think that XFCE should be the one to have it's CD because it is often used on older hardware that might not have high-speed net access.

I do agree with functional distros like Medical Ubuntu, Edubuntu and CE (is that what CE in Windows CE stood for?). They should have their own names and CD's/iso's. They actually differ in functionality from Ubuntu. K/Xubuntu do not.

as far as i can glean, his point is not that there shouldnt be all these different flavors, but that they should be maintained by the community.

he thinks that canonical should spend their efforts on stuff like new technology, hardware, while the community maintains the derivative distros of ubuntu.
You are correct, sir!

[aysiu]

I'll agree with you on the naming thing. I've seen too many users confused about them all being the same distro. I've read remarks like "It seems Ubuntu is having a hard time recognizing my hardware. Do you think I'd be better off with Kubuntu?"

If they were named Ubuntu Gnome and Ubuntu KDE, respectively, then people would not ask such questions.

[Sushi]

Why do you agree on HTbuntu then?

Such a system would be less of an OS, and more of an appliance, really. And because using a general-purpose OS/GUI would not be suitable. Basically, a HTPCUbuntu would be just one more member to the Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu-family.


HTPC is nothing but a PC with a PVR card and a TV out (hell most video cards nowadays come with TV out of some sort).

Well, HTPC is not usually used for that "computer-stuff".

[Dragonbite]

If it all fits on a DVD, maybe the DVD should contin the core components of Ubuntu, the Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu metapackages and allow you to choose which one(s) you want to install at that time.

[prizrak]

Such a system would be less of an OS, and more of an appliance, really. And because using a general-purpose OS/GUI would not be suitable. Basically, a HTPCUbuntu would be just one more member to the Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Edubuntu-family.



Well, HTPC is not usually used for that "computer-stuff".
In that case it would fall into another argument that the same user made earlier. The argument was that it would be better served by OEM's as it is a highly specialized market. So TiVo instead of HTbuntu.

Also an HTPC could be used a central server for the house. You can have a powerful machine that runs as an HTPC with huge amounts of storage and memory and have a bunch of older slower machines log into it as terminal clients.

The point is, if tablets are too specialized of a market and have too few users who are HTPC's different?

[prizrak]

If it all fits on a DVD, maybe the DVD should contin the core components of Ubuntu, the Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu metapackages and allow you to choose which one(s) you want to install at that time.
That can and I'm sure in time will be done. However right now DVD burners aren't as abundant as CD burners so we have to stick to CD's.

[Sushi]

The point is, if tablets are too specialized of a market and have too few users who are HTPC's different?

The point is that tablets are served just fine bu Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/etc. Instead of creating a specific version for tablets, we should be making sure that Ubuntu and it's various subversions work well with different kinds of hardware, tablets included. HTCP-Ubuntu would fit just nicely with those other buntus. Basically, the differentiation between those buntus is the UI. And the UI on the MythTV-version would (obviously) be different. So a HTPC-versions relationship would be more or less similar to Kubuntus relationship with Ubuntu. But specific version for tablets makes no sense. Instead of making a specific version for tablets, why not make sure that the normal version works well with tablets?

[ComplexNumber]

That can and I'm sure in time will be done. However right now DVD burners aren't as abundant as CD burners so we have to stick to CD's.
true, but i guess it depends upon what part of the world someone is in. its worth noting that many UK magazines have done away with cd's on their cover, and now only have dvd on the cover. for example, Linux Format only put dvd's on the cover now. dvd burners are quite prevalent in the UK, so its no problem.

[OldGaf]

Since U/Ku/Xubuntu use the same package repositories, why can't there be on CD (or DVD) for all of them? It should ask you during the install which desktop environment(s) you want.

=D> I've been saying that for some time myself. Just have the install ask you which flavor you would like.

[prizrak]

The point is that tablets are served just fine bu Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/etc. Instead of creating a specific version for tablets, we should be making sure that Ubuntu and it's various subversions work well with different kinds of hardware, tablets included. HTCP-Ubuntu would fit just nicely with those other buntus. Basically, the differentiation between those buntus is the UI. And the UI on the MythTV-version would (obviously) be different. So a HTPC-versions relationship would be more or less similar to Kubuntus relationship with Ubuntu. But specific version for tablets makes no sense. Instead of making a specific version for tablets, why not make sure that the normal version works well with tablets?

It seems like you have never used a tablet with Ubuntu on it. It is not served just fine that is the issue. I own an Acer TravelMate C310 and despite the fact that all the hardware (save for bluetooth) was working out of the box it didn't function all that well. When putting it in tablet mode the screen did not change orientation (as it does on Windows). There was no calibration option that I could find to make the stylus more precise (there is one on Windows, as part of the standard install too, not with 3rd party drivers). There is NO handwriting recognition whatsoever available on Ubuntu. There is xstroke that is a fine gesture recognition tool but is pretty week for handwriting. The Gnome OSK is the worst piece of software I have ever seen and I have used Windows since 95 was out. Perhaps the latter could be addressed by Kubuntu but I've had issues with it on my systems.

While it would be great if a standard install worked just fine on the tablets this is a one CD distro (something that you don't seem to take into account). There are space constraints and I believe that it makes a whole lot more sense to create a separate edition that would cater specifically for tablets and HTPC's (and other things such as Medical Ubuntu project) than it is to put a different GUI on the same exact distro and call it something else. Having only one CD is great and for now (before everyone got DVD burners) size is something keep in mind. In light of that Ubuntu cannot come with all the software that is needed by tablets and HTPC's w/o having to make decisions about not including certain other software. So I think it makes sense to have customized distro's that have certain things by default.

Additionally there is an issue of defaults. Even if Ubuntu comes with some good handwriting recognition tools as well as an OSK (should be integrated anyway) they won't be enabled by default since it is general purpose (same way as the Wacom tablet will not work until xorg.conf is edited in a way to allow it) making it more of a hassle to the end user. It would be great if the Ubuntu installer was redone in a way that allows it to dynamically enable certain things (such as tablet and HTPC functionality) but it does not.

Remember that defaults go a long way in user satisfaction. I can recompile my entire system if I really want to no matter what distribution it is and make it 100% custom but for the most part I liked Ubuntu because upon install it didn't require anything more than some of the proprietary stuff that could not be installed by default. It isn't only about tablets and HTPC's, in a different thread someone mentioned that it would make sense to have Ubuntu for Disabled people with accessibility on by default, Ubuntu for kids that might have a simpler/more colorful interface and so on. Defaults are constraints that need to be addressed, they cannot be addressed by one universal install, unless it is a very good installer (which it is not) and even then certain things would require tweaking.

For the record, neither xstroke, nor MythTV (well there is a library that it uses but not the rest of it)are even in the repositories (yes I have multi/universe enabled).

[prizrak]

true, but i guess it depends upon what part of the world someone is in. its worth noting that many UK magazines have done away with cd's on their cover, and now only have dvd on the cover. for example, Linux Format only put dvd's on the cover now. dvd burners are quite prevalent in the UK, so its no problem.

DVD readers are no problem just about any computer will have one (save for some really old machines). However downloading an .iso and burning it would require a burner and they are just not as widespread yet. Sure quite a few new systems come with one but still not as standard as CD burners. Hell my tablet doesn't have a DVD burner and I got it like 2 months ago (well there was an upper model with one but it had a different CPU and other things I have no need for and therefore cost too much to justify)

[ComplexNumber]

DVD readers are no problem just about any computer will have one (save for some really old machines). However downloading an .iso and burning it would require a burner and they are just not as widespread yet. Sure quite a few new systems come with one but still not as standard as CD burners. Hell my tablet doesn't have a DVD burner and I got it like 2 months ago (well there was an upper model with one but it had a different CPU and other things I have no need for and therefore cost too much to justify)
i think you probably find that to be the case where you are because, technologically, america is quite a number of years behind britain and many parts of europe. dvd burners seem to come as standard on pc's these days. well, thats from experience anyway.

[prizrak]

i think you probably find that to be the case where you are because, technologically, america is quite a number of years behind britain and many parts of europe. dvd burners seem to come as standard on pc's these days. well, thats from experience anyway.
Well they are standard on new PC's (well desktops for the most part, laptops not so much) but that's not really the point. There are still many people that are using hardware that is 4-5 years old, when CD burners weren't even standard. That hardware performs just fine for most tasks (especially if you use Ubuntu instead of crazy, resource hungry XP) so Ubuntu is CD based. Even MS has only recently started to offer DVD's. With MSDN for instance you can't even get XP tablet and MCE on DVD's it comes on two CD's. It's basically about the general availability rather than what is being sold. I'm sure you will find that both in Europe and even the ever advanced Japan CD burners greatly outnumber DVD burners.

[aysiu]

I have hardware that's only a couple of years old, and no DVD burner.

[ComplexNumber]

I'm sure you will find that both in Europe and even the ever advanced Japan CD burners greatly outnumber DVD burners.yes, thats still the case here, although i'm not so sure about japan. it seems to be that, starting from japan, the further west one goes in the northern hemisphere, the more backward technology becomes. take mobile phones for instance, japan are years ahead of britain. they have tv and 5/6megapixel cameras on their phones as standard. britian/europe only as 2/3 megapixel cameras as standard, with no tv. america still has vga cameras as standard.

[Sushi]

It seems like you have never used a tablet with Ubuntu on it. It is not served just fine that is the issue.

And that is the reason we should create a specific version for tablets? IMO, no. If Ubuntu and it's subversions do not work optimally with tablets, it does NOT mean we should make a specific version for tablets. What we SHOULD be doing is to fix the issues in Ubuntu that prevent it from working optimally on tablets. THAT'S what I'm saying!


I own an Acer TravelMate C310 and despite the fact that all the hardware (save for bluetooth) was working out of the box it didn't function all that well. When putting it in tablet mode the screen did not change orientation (as it does on Windows). There was no calibration option that I could find to make the stylus more precise (there is one on Windows, as part of the standard install too, not with 3rd party drivers). There is NO handwriting recognition whatsoever available on Ubuntu. There is xstroke that is a fine gesture recognition tool but is pretty week for handwriting. The Gnome OSK is the worst piece of software I have ever seen and I have used Windows since 95 was out. Perhaps the latter could be addressed by Kubuntu but I've had issues with it on my systems.

Those are not reasons to create a new version of Ubuntu for tablets. Those are reasons to fix bugs and shortcomings in Ubuntu itself.


While it would be great if a standard install worked just fine on the tablets this is a one CD distro (something that you don't seem to take into account).

The "one CD"-argument is crap. A bugfix in X/GNOME/KDE that makes the screen rotate properly (something that is already supported by the desktops) does not require that much space. An improved on-screen keyboard does not tame that much space.


Additionally there is an issue of defaults. Even if Ubuntu comes with some good handwriting recognition tools as well as an OSK (should be integrated anyway) they won't be enabled by default since it is general purpose (same way as the Wacom tablet will not work until xorg.conf is edited in a way to allow it) making it more of a hassle to the end user.

And that couldn't be fixed, because....?

[prizrak]

And that is the reason we should create a specific version for tablets? IMO, no. If Ubuntu and it's subversions do not work optimally with tablets, it does NOT mean we should make a specific version for tablets. What we SHOULD be doing is to fix the issues in Ubuntu that prevent it from working optimally on tablets. THAT'S what I'm saying!

Those are not reasons to create a new version of Ubuntu for tablets. Those are reasons to fix bugs and shortcomings in Ubuntu itself.

The "one CD"-argument is crap. A bugfix in X/GNOME/KDE that makes the screen rotate properly (something that is already supported by the desktops) does not require that much space. An improved on-screen keyboard does not tame that much space.

And that couldn't be fixed, because....?
Yes Ubuntu could include all the needed fixes and software on one CD most likely. You are right that a decent OSK shouldn't take much room (although XP Tablet Edition comes on two CD's while XP Pro comes on one, so something is taking up the extra 200MB). The problem as I put it is defaults, on XP Tablet the OSK is on at the login prompt, the utilities that listen for tablet events are up and running at startup. Why would a regular Ubuntu have those on as defaults? There is no point in an always available OSK on Ubuntu that won't be run on a tablet, there is no point in daemons listening for tablet events and such.

With the current installer in order to have out of the box tablet functionality there needs to be a different version of Ubuntu for tablets. If the installer gets improved to the point where it will be able to detect whether it is a tablet or a regular PC (and be able to tell whether it's a desktop/laptop with a standalone Wacom or a real tablet) and dynamically install modules based on the results of the test then I will be the first one to say that tehre is no need for a separate tablet variant. However you have to agree that it's quite a bit easier to make a separate version that has all the tablet goodies turned on.

[slimdog360]

Penetration
ahahahhaaaahahhhahahahaaa:lol:, guess how old I am

[henriquemaia]

I don't understand which part is hard for you

Freedom
of
Speech

A.K.A. This is my opinion, take as you like.

They are interconnected. It's good to have them both. My commentary concerns what the founders of these projects may think and not you having voiced your opinion - which you did well in doing it so.

[prizrak]

They are interconnected. It's good to have them both. My commentary concerns what the founders of these projects may think and not you having voiced your opinion - which you did well in doing it so.

Glad got that cleared up :)

It seems that the conclusion that has been drawn so far is that Canonical should work on a more intellegent installer that would mostly eliminate the need for different variants outside of things that would not fit on one CD.