The problem with Linux (Fanatics)

[Avi]

Hi again guys,

You may remember reading my post about my online diary of moving from Windows to Linux - So I've decided to switch to Linux (http://www.avidardik.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=1) - which I've posted about in this forum before.
You can read the original posts, and interesting feedback HERE (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=16043) and HERE (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=17188) ...

Well... Following some of the responses I got, togather with two interesting new articles I've found, I've written a follow-up, spin-off, episode:
The problem with Linux (Fanatics) (http://www.avidardik.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=1)

And remember, if you bash this post - You're probably one of them!!! ;-)

[dataw0lf]

And remember, if you bash this post - You're probably one of them!!! ;-)

What does a shell have to do with anything??!

<-- fanatic

[KiwiNZ]

What does a shell have to do with anything??!

<-- fanatic

Very subtle :smile::razz:

[KiwiNZ]

Avi

You will find Zeolots in every camp . You just have to filter the rubbish and appreciate the finery.

[Avi]

What does a shell have to do with anything??!

<-- fanatic

Geez.. Not just any fanatic, but the the leader!
:razz: :razz: :razz:

[dataw0lf]

I've used Debian for 5-6 years. That makes me automagically a fanatic.
;) <3

[Stormy Eyes]

I've used Debian for 5-6 years. That makes me automagically a fanatic.
;) <3

I used Gentoo for two years, Slackware, BSD, and Debian. I tend to shrug off criticisms of Linux by saying, "It's not like one pays for this software. Don't look a gift OS in the mouth." Of course, I'm utterly unforgiving when it comes to defects in Windows precisely because people are expected to pay for it.

[mike998]

What does a shell have to do with anything??!

<-- fanatic

Feeling Bourne again? :-)

I've always had a bit of a problem with fanatics in both Windows and Linux camps... I've come to the conclusion that what suits one person may not suit another. You simply have to gather all the facts, try it out and if it doesn't suit you, go back to your O/S (or distro) of choice.

[Brunellus]

From the link: His comments are pure gold! He doesn't mention Windows here, but just what he sees as wrong with this specific Linux GNOME design.
Pure gold I'm telling you!
I mean here's an honest to God pro that gives you free tips you can learn from when designing GNOME 3.
You can turn a good product into an even better one!

But do you thing EVERYONE thanked the man? - That's right. No.
There are enough fanatics here to tell him how Windows is worse, and Linux is perfect. Jeez!

Linux tends to attract a far more fanatical following than Windows, since, well, nobody really chooses windows, while those who use Linux have, by and large, made a conscious decision to adopt that platform and stick with it. Think about it like this: you might like your employer, but you probably wouldn't rise to defend him emotionally. An insult to your lover, however, would probably elicit a bit more emotion from you.

That said: quite a few people did appreciate the article you reference--a lot of the irritation (it seemed to me) was directed at the fact that a lot of the article seemed to be just so much idle bitching, and wondering whether or not the author would at the very least bother to file official bug-reports/feature requests.

You have to remember: most of the criticism will have come from gnome users who are already perfectly happy with the interface. Remember the mantra of FOSS: If it works *for you*, then *it works*.

Personally, I thought that some of his comments were valid, if extremely nitpicky.

[Brunellus]

I've used Debian for 5-6 years. That makes me automagically a fanatic.
;) <3

Boy. Is that the only thing Debian does for you automagically :-)

[KiwiNZ]

Yeah thats an issue I have always had with the IT industry , we the consumer are expected just to put up with buggy , broken software , TFT's with dead or bright pixels, Poor performing chips, shonky printers . All with the excuse oh well its computers you have to expect that.
If cars had as many faults they would be recalled . As with any other product.

The dammed arrogance of the Monitor manufacturers saying that its ok to have up to 8 dead pixels . I wont accept one , and no-one should .

Thats why I dont use Windows (much) its just not right that they can charge as high as they do for the ____. At least MS arent as bad as the fruit PC company that charges for its service packs .

I will put my soap bax away now :razz::smile:

[Stormy Eyes]

Think about it like this: you might like your employer, but you probably wouldn't rise to defend him emotionally. An insult to your lover, however, would probably elicit a bit more emotion from you.

You're right. I don't care much when people knock my employer. I look for my sledgehammer if somebody says anything negative about my wife. :)

[dataw0lf]

I used Gentoo for two years, Slackware, BSD, and Debian. I tend to shrug off criticisms of Linux by saying, "It's not like one pays for this software. Don't look a gift OS in the mouth." Of course, I'm utterly unforgiving when it comes to defects in Windows precisely because people are expected to pay for it.

Oh, I've used Gentoo and Slackware (my first distro). I still use FreeBSD and OpenBSD for some servers and routers. I've installed just about every distro under the sun, and at work I take care of Red Hat and Tru64 servers.
However, Debian is my favorite Linux distribution (and, by association, Ubuntu is now my favorite _desktop_ Linux distro).

[Stormy Eyes]

Thats why I dont use Windows (much) its just not right that they can charge as high as they do for the ____. At least MS arent as bad as the fruit PC company that charges for its service packs .

That's why I refuse to use Windows at home: I'm not willing to pay for the privilege of putting up with defective products.

[plb]

@stormyeyes...cokehabit says hi...he just told me to say that in msn :razz: btw this is downpour from gentoo forums just giving ubuntu a whirl

[SolidAndShade]

I don't think you should judge an OS by its supporters. You can find annoying morons among the supporters of any OS, political philosophy, or whatever. Of course, if the supporters are mostly annoying morons it's cause for concern, but usually it's a small minority who shouts louder than everyone else.

SolidAndShade

[MasonM]

You have the same sort of fanatics with just about anything. Distros are a good example. Some folks just don't have the maturity to accept any negative comments regarding their favorite distro, OS, or candy bar.

Personally I've used just about every distro that's come along. I just recently migrated from Slack to Ubuntu. I've been laid up since suffering a badly busted hip/pelvis in a car wreck Dec 26th, so I've had a LOT of free time on my hands.

I've taken advantage of the time by testing and evaluating many distros. Since 1995 I've used (in no particular order) Slackware, Debian, SuSE, Mandrake, Gentoo, SimplyMepis, Red Hat, Fedora, LFS, Knoppix, Libranet, Ubuntu, Damn Small Linux, Puppy, and many others. Each and every one of them have both good and bad points. If there's a perfect one, I haven't found it yet, but you sure can't convince some folks of that.

I really like what Ubuntu is doing and hope they continue making Linux easier to use for the average "mom & pop" user.

The same applies to operating systems in general. None are perfect. For some people Linux with one distro or another is the perfect solution, for others it's Windows. Let's face it, "different strokes for different folks" most definately applies when it comes to computer systems. Sadly, some people just need the validation that comes from the tired old "mine is better than yours" and "if you don't use mine, you must be a/an ".

I find the whole thing to be quite amusing at times. Those who rabidly attack anyone who uses/owns/prefers/eats/drinks/drives something other than their choice display a level of immaturity and bigotry that defies logic or reason.

Maybe they just want to feel like they "belong" to something?

[23meg]

I used Gentoo for two years, Slackware, BSD, and Debian. I tend to shrug off criticisms of Linux by saying, "It's not like one pays for this software. Don't look a gift OS in the mouth." Of course, I'm utterly unforgiving when it comes to defects in Windows precisely because people are expected to pay for it.

i strongly disagree. i do not endorse taking commercial value as a cue for determining the actual usability of anything, and software is no exception; it's actually a field where you have clearly laid out agendas and manifestos from sides with different ideologies regarding its use and distribution. and Linux is not your regular "freebie". if we don't criticize its flaws, make them public, discuss them and ultimately destroy them, we're destined to lose against the proprietary software world. because Linux at present has some serious shortcomings when compared with its proprietary competitors, and this fact has nothing to do with the separate fact that it's superior to them in many other aspects.

[MasonM]

Well said 23Meg.

[poofyhairguy]

Why is Linux special?

Windows has fanatics. Game consoles have fanatics. Movie, television, and book series have fanatics. Almost every political issue has someone who advocates one extreme and someone who advocates another. Fanatisism is a part of life. Some people will defend and claim their (software, sneaker, pick-up truck, soft drink, etc.) is better than all others without any proof or logic to back them.

Linux will always have fanatics, because anything popular does usually. If fanatics are a problem, its because they are louder than the larger reasonable majority. Can fanatics hurt the image of a product, icon, movement, action or whatever? Yes. But how do you deal with this image problem? Can't tell people to stop usuing linux or posting on /. or whatever because it free. The license is open. For dicks and nice people alike.

The only solution is to deal with it a grow some thick skin. If you know (believe) that an operating system isn't that important that don't worry about it. Just use it. Leave the worrying to the fanatics.

[Knome_fan]

I think you should be really careful with calling other people fanatics. Doing so is often a strong indication that the person doing it is either a fanatic himself, or that he is lacking real arguments to support his position. Note, I don't think the former is the case with you, but I feel the latter somehow applies.

Let's take the 48hours with ubuntu article as an example. You seem to blankly label everyone who disagrees with the author and doesn't thank him as a fanatic. However, this is obviously not the case, as it is perfectly concievable that someone doesn't object to critisizing Gnome and Ubuntu in general but on the contrary thinks that it is badly needed in order to improve them, but still thinks a lot of the points the author makes are simply stupid.

For example I strongly disagree with him presenting the Mac style menu bar on top as the only valid option. I know there are a lot of people who would disagree with him on that (some of them also pros), which doesn't stop him from presenting his preference as if it was some kind of scientific fact. Now I don't like that, does that make me a fanatic?

Finally, don't be so impressed with him being a pro. While I agree that articles like this are valueble and should of course be considered, him being pro doesn't automatically mean he's right, does it? After all, there are only pros working at MS, but I think you would have a hard time arguing that this makes all the decisions they made right.

[KiwiNZ]

[QUOTE=Knome_fan]I think you should be really careful with calling other people fanatics. Doing so is often a strong indication that the person doing it is either a fanatic himself, or that he is lacking real arguments to support his position. Note, I don't think the former is the case with you, but I feel the latter somehow applies."


Lets keep this to the subject debate and not make it personal.

Thanks

[Knome_fan]

[QUOTE=Knome_fan]I think you should be really careful with calling other people fanatics. Doing so is often a strong indication that the person doing it is either a fanatic himself, or that he is lacking real arguments to support his position. Note, I don't think the former is the case with you, but I feel the latter somehow applies."


Lets keep this to the subject debate and not make it personal.

Thanks
Where exactly was my comment off topic and where did I make it personal?

[nocturn]

I don't know how 'bad' the negative feedback was and how personal it got.

There is a difference between disagreeing with what you said and getting personal about it. If the latter happened then it is wrong.

That said I agree with some parts of you conclusion, but not with all of it.

Namely:
"tarting with the simplest (or is it..?) task of converting my years-old Outlook PST archive file to Linux."
This is a proprietary format. The fact that MS obscured your E-mail is not the fault of the community. In addition, reverse engineering can have legal consequences.

"DVD shrink"
I sorta agree with the basic point, yet again, writing a program to do this would be legally very shady as even playing DVD's on Linux with DeCSS is illegal in a lot of countries.

"With Windows, keeping tabs of my hardware specs, temperatures etc was quite easy."
Yes, lmsensors needs to be easier, and preferably sensors should be auto-detected on install/boottime.

"BUT, it is too complicated, too uncomfortable, too difficult to get them working.
They do NOT work out of the box."
Ubuntu installed much easier on all systems I put it on the Windows ever did.
That is not even counting the hassle of installing anti-virus, anti-spyware etc and a lot of stuff that does not work on Windows out-of-the box.

I have a windows XP desktop at work and it requires a lot more maintenance and tweaking to stay afloat then any of my Ubuntu boxes do. So I guess this argument depends on which user profile you have.

[nocturn]

Another comment on your diary. Your analysis of Linux started from a migration from WinXP to Linux. Many of the problems you described do not pop up when you start from scratch (yes, this does happen).

The other way arround, migrating from years of Linux use to WinXP/MS Office/Outlook would not be so easy either, and then you would be lucky that the data formats where publicly available.

[Stormy Eyes]

i strongly disagree. i do not endorse taking commercial value as a cue for determining the actual usability of anything, and software is no exception; it's actually a field where you have clearly laid out agendas and manifestos from sides with different ideologies regarding its use and distribution. and Linux is not your regular "freebie". if we don't criticize its flaws, make them public, discuss them and ultimately destroy them, we're destined to lose against the proprietary software world. because Linux at present has some serious shortcomings when compared with its proprietary competitors, and this fact has nothing to do with the separate fact that it's superior to them in many other aspects.

Your opinion's reasonable. Perhaps I wasn't explicit enough. I'm more patient with Linux -- willing to file bug reports, offer constructive criticism, etc. -- because I'm not paying for it. If I'm paying for software, I expect to get my money's worth. Since I don't get my money's worth out of Windows due to its defects, I view Windows as utter garbage and won't use it unless somebody pays me to use it.