New dvd's dont play in linux anymore?

[NoTiG]

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this. I just read a blog about a person with the same problem . is this an end to watching Dvd's in linux ?

[Beamerboy]

Just wondering if anyone else has noticed this. I just read a blog about a person with the same problem . is this an end to watching Dvd's in linux ?

You talking about my blog (letter to Office of Fair Trading regarding anti-trust laws and dvd production companies)?

It seems to be pretty much a UK issue at the moment, from what I have heard US dvd's are still causing no problems, but certainly a large number of DVDs produced for the UK market at the moment are causing a lot of problems.

I am working very hard to get this stopped in the political arena both in the UK and European governments, if you are based in the UK you can help by sending a letter to the Office of Fair Trading and also contacting the European Commission (who are responsible for acting in anti-trust cases). My conversation with the EU Commission was quite enlightening, the person I spoke too certainly believed that this goes against both anti-trust and consumer law throughout Europe and was very interested in starting an official investigation into the situation once the Office of Fair Trading have looked at it for the UK (since I am a UK citizen I have to go through my own government first).

I will make sure I update the blog once I have more information.

[NoTiG]

yea im talking about your blog :P . I have the same exact symptoms though as you do ... its a brand new dvd i believe.... Older ones work fine . (like not much older) . but this one is bleeding edge i guess... got it from blockbuster. My dvdrom spins up and slows down and goes a little beserk and refuses to eject (it takes some prodding) . sounds like the same issue you have.

[NoTiG]

And it sounds like you made progress... which is cool . I live in the US. But i feel like for there to be any change they would need to get rid of encryption completely.. since linux is about open source. And i dont see that happening... so what i hope (realistically i expect) is that the cracks arrive as fast as the anti-open Hacks .

ps. I enjoy skipping through the advertisements. an official dvd player still wouldnt let me do that. I like libdvdcss...

[Beamerboy]

And it sounds like you made progress... which is cool . I live in the US. But i feel like for there to be any change they would need to get rid of encryption completely.. since linux is about open source. And i dont see that happening... so what i hope (realistically i expect) is that the cracks arrive as fast as the anti-open Hacks .

ps. I enjoy skipping through the advertisements. an official dvd player still wouldnt let me do that. I like libdvdcss...

Yeah sounds like similar symptons. DVDDecrypter calls it structure protection, from what I can see it is basically authored in such a way as to confuse the player with messed up ifos and crazy jumps.

They play fine in windows.

My suggestion is you contact the EFF (www.eff.org) and also send a letter to your senator and get your local LUG involved in some sort of campaign.

[3rdalbum]

The worst thing about these makeshift copy-protection schemes is that they ALWAYS prevent the disc from playing on many standalone players; often the cheap ones, bought by the elderly and other low-income earners who can't afford to buy a "compatible" player!

[DoctorMO]

Beamerboy could you link to your blog and give me details about the Office of Fair Traiding?

[Lord Illidan]

I don't like this...

but will region 2 dvds play (i.e. American DVDs only are affected) or is it the whole world?

Cos if it is like this, then f*** the RIAA, I will download everything. I have the right to use a DVD I purchased on the Operating System of my choice.

[DoctorMO]

The only reason region encoding doesn't break laws is because the boundries are clever, they choose boundries that mark political and legal boundries so you can't claim that US vs EU wouldn't get in the way of any dispute. this doesn't make it right to do though.

I will reserve the right to decrypt any dvd I own and will refuse to buy and will return any offending dvd under the Goods of Sales Act.

But I won't download copyright protected content against the wishes of the maker, because sometimes doing without scares them more than piracy. could you imagen if no one bought dvds out of principle? they won't though, not enough people think like that.

[Beamerboy]

DoctorMO: http://blog.paladine.org.uk <- it is my latest entry
Lord Illidan: It was actually just a region 2 issue initially it now seems that US dvds are starting to to display similar protection.

[Lord Illidan]

DoctorMO: http://blog.paladine.org.uk <- it is my latest entry
Lord Illidan: It was actually just a region 2 issue initially it now seems that US dvds are starting to to display similar protection.

Strange..I just watched a recent DVD...King Kong..played without any probs on Linux.. Didn't try it on Windows...

However, could it be just Sony??

[Beamerboy]

Strange..I just watched a recent DVD...King Kong..played without any probs on Linux.. Didn't try it on Windows...

However, could it be just Sony??

You will note I said in my original reply that it is not all new releases, just a significant number. I wouldn't be at all suprised if it was Sony (since we all know about their unlawful and unacceptable "copy protection" schemes) and indeed it is Sony whom I have complained about to the OFT.

Strangely enough I just received a reply from the OFT today (well outside the time limits given in their charter) which I have published on my blog. I also replied to the OFT, which is also published on the Blog.

Beamerboy

[Footissimo]

Gawd in bloody hell. I haven't come across this yet, but the whole issue makes me angry - if they really want to put these copy protection **** in then fine, but give me a way of actually playing DVDs that I pay for - I've got a legit copy of powerDVD on Windows which just gathers dust, but I can't buy a legit DVD player or plugin on Ubuntu because there isn't one..unless of course, I want to be relegated to Linspire.

Which will come first a generic legit DVD player / plugin or a hack to get over this latest hurdle?

Anyone know if this new copy protection will play in PS2s? Otherwise I won't bother buying anymore DVDs until something is sorted.

[Lord Illidan]

What's stupid is the way they ignore the whole point. Is this going to circumvent piracy?

Probably not. Instead, they are actually going to increase piracy, if not DVD copying, at least of bootleg dvds where the video taken by a guy with a camcorder in a cinema.

I bought the DVD, it is my property..these guys are just not getting it. And I hope the EU gets off Microsoft's ***..and starts getting on theirs... The more I hear about DRM, the more I feel like agreeing with RMS.

[Beamerboy]

Gawd in bloody hell. I haven't come across this yet, but the whole issue makes me angry - if they really want to put these copy protection **** in then fine, but give me a way of actually playing DVDs that I pay for - I've got a legit copy of powerDVD on Windows which just gathers dust, but I can't buy a legit DVD player or plugin on Ubuntu because there isn't one..unless of course, I want to be relegated to Linspire.

Which will come first a generic legit DVD player / plugin or a hack to get over this latest hurdle?

Anyone know if this new copy protection will play in PS2s? Otherwise I won't bother buying anymore DVDs until something is sorted.

Well I refuse to purchase Sony products because of the rootkit debacle among other reasons, so i don't know about the PS2.

I stopped buying DVDs 2 years ago when I started to boycott the movie industry. the only dvd's which are purchased in my house are second hand (used), meaning no money goes to the movie industry.

If my missus wants to see something earlier she rents it (again no money goes to the movie industry since rental stores pay a fixed price on rental movies, not royalties). We also refuse to go to the cinema.

It is a little hard sometimes sincewe have a young child and my missus is a HUGE disney fan, but it doesn't cause us ill health or effect the quality of our lives, so it is not really a big deal.

The only way to commit change is to boycott the industry and refuse to purchase any of their products, hit them in their wallets. Sadly due to the large sums of money the industry spends on lobbying governments, it is unlikely that a campaigns on a political scale by regular people is going to achieve anything, especially since there is a cap on how much a private individual is permitted to "donate" to Senators in the US (a cap which does not exist for companies, or if it does, it is so high as to be useless.)

For more information on how much the entertainment industry spend in order to have the laws changed in their favour in the US see my blog entry here:

http://users.livejournal.com/_paladine_/?skip=10#item4601

This money is basically coming from american consumers, since the industry make their money directly from their customers. So in essence, the US public are paying the industry to have the laws changed to the point where it strips all their consumer and fair use rights. The only way to prevent this, is to stop giving the industry their money to lobby with.

Sadly, most people seem to have this problem where they fear they will have no life if they don't purchase these products and services, so a mainstream boycott is never likely to occur.

Beamerboy.

[MetalMusicAddict]

You guys might be talking about the new ARccOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARccOS) protected DVDs.

They cause problems here also. The Doom9 Forums can help you if you want to work. Won't help with immediate playback on linux but, like I said, if you want to work...

[Beamerboy]

You guys might be talking about the new ARccOS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARccOS) protected DVDs.

They cause problems here also. The Doom9 Forums can help you if you want to work. Won't help with immediate playback on linux but, like I said, if you want to work...

The wikipedia entry indicates that dvd players ignore these bad sectors, which simply is not the case, several of the dvds I have had issues with trying to play on Linux appear in their list.

A very useful find though, I will be sure to forward the information in my my next correspondence with the OFT.

[MetalMusicAddict]

The wikipedia entry indicates that dvd players ignore these bad sectors, which simply is not the case, several of the dvds I have had issues with trying to play on Linux appear in their list.
I think their talking about stand-alone players. Not DVD PC drives. Thats where your having the problem right? Not with a stand-alone? I have had problems with stand-alones and some of these disks. On an older player though.

Just wait though guys. Wait till we wanna play our Blue-ray/HDDVD disks. That will be a pisser. A honest way has to be found for us Linux guys.

[MetalMusicAddict]

Double post. Damn overloaded site. I have so many problems recently.

[Beamerboy]

I think their talking about stand-alone players. Not DVD PC drives. Thats where your having the problem right? Not with a stand-alone? I have had problems with stand-alones and some of these disks. On an older player though.

Just wait though guys. Wait till we wanna play our Blue-ray/HDDVD disks. That will be a pisser. A honest way has to be found for us Linux guys.

Yeah I am specifically having problems with software players in Linux (the dvd drives work fine in windows so it not a hardware issue, it is software.)

There needs to be some movement to have free and legal codecs for dvdplayback in linux that actually work, but we all know that is nothing more than a pipe dream.

I am pushing to have such DRM technologies outlawed in the EU under existing consumer laws, but to be honest, until more people actually start getting involved and flooding the regulatory bodies with complaints, it is unlikely I will achieve anything in real terms.

[MetalMusicAddict]

Yeah I am specifically having problems with software players in Linux (the dvd drives work fine in windows so it not a hardware issue, it is software.)

There needs to be some movement to have free and legal codecs for dvdplayback in linux that actually work, but we all know that is nothing more than a pipe dream.

I am pushing to have such DRM technologies outlawed in the EU under existing consumer laws, but to be honest, until more people actually start getting involved and flooding the regulatory bodies with complaints, it is unlikely I will achieve anything in real terms.

See, but then the thing is how do you protect the content and still let people play it the way they want to? Its a difficult balence.

[Lord Illidan]

Aye, the Blue-Ray thing is going to be a great way to steal money!!

[MetalMusicAddict]

Aye, the Blue-Ray thing is going to be a great way to steal money!!
From who?

[DoctorMO]

Every time the content makers produce content wich is inacessable they are selling something which does not exist, ergo stealing.

Disney does not have the right to stop me playing my movies on any machine I want, nor does it have the right to stop me sleeping on the dvds (see recent ogg video from groklaw)

[MetalMusicAddict]

Disney does not have the right to stop me playing my movies on any machine I want
Yes, they do, just like you dont have to buy it. You wanna force a company to do something? dont support buy their stuff. Kinda like gas in the states right now.

They made a crap-load of gas for the summer and had prices @ $3 where Im at. Nobody went anywhere this summer now prices are crashing. Its down 60 cents here.

[Beamerboy]

See, but then the thing is how do you protect the content and still let people play it the way they want to? Its a difficult balence.

Well firstly I question the legitimacy of protecting the content in the first place.

Firstly because it doesn't work, it merely prevents honest consumers from being able to use products and services they paid for.

Secondly, until such time as the industry makes steps to upgrade their business model to the 21st century, and by that I mean more reasonable pricing, distribution methods that their consumers actually want and an end to this Copyright race which is the reason why so many older movies are being remade (to secure copyrights for another century), people will continue to "pirate" their products.

Copyright Laws need addressing and bringing back to their original purpose, that means Copyrights need reducing rather than extending and fair use needs to come back into effect.

Using techniques which really are illegal in so many ways is not justified by the desire to protect their copyrights. Two wrongs do not make a right. Many DRM technologies are blatently in breach of consumer laws but unfortunately, due to the power of the industry lobby and the cost of actually litigating these breaches for the people it effects, they get ignored. the Sony Rootkit was a perfect example of this. That DRM was a breach of criminal and civil law, but did we see any criminal charges pressed? No. Sony merely wormed their way out with a half cocked civil settlement, when in reality the people responsible should have been arrested and held accountable under criminal law, both in the Eu and North America.

As I have stated on several occassions, the problem is lack of action from the public. If a senator has a cheque from Sony BMG lobby in one hand for $80 000 USD and a single letter from a member of the public highlighting issues based around SonyBMG's business practises, which one do you think he is going to pay more attention to?

However, if the same Senator has a cheque for $80 000 USD in one hand, and an entire room full of hundreds of thousands of letters of complaint requiring the attention of many staff and using a lot of his resources and time, which do you think he is going to pay attention to then?

It all comes down to money, the public needs to make the cost of dealing with complaints higher than the income from the lobbies (or at least comparable) before the governments will start to pay attention.

[MetalMusicAddict]

Well firstly I question the legitimacy of protecting the content in the first place.

Firstly because it doesn't work, it merely prevents honest consumers from being able to use products and services they paid for.
So content makers shouldnt have the right to protect it simply because currently, laws are outdated? Also we want to use the "products and services" in was they werent intended. Their fault and ours. If Blue-Ray movie disks are only ment to be played/desinged for stand-alones people wont like that and wont accept that. But instead of just not buying 'em they will try to break whatever encryption is on the disk. Is that really the way to go? Some of it is just human nature. We wanna know how somethings works.

It all comes down to money, the public needs to make the cost of dealing with complaints higher than the income from the lobbies (or at least comparable) before the governments will start to pay attention.
Aint that the truth. Im not really sure how to deal with it. I know I cant make a difference. Im not sure how many people can. The EFF I think is doing a good job at representing us but like you said "money". Its a bitch.

See for me, I dont buy DVDs. I rent 'em via NetFlix. Im not gonna have this massive collection only to buy it all Blue-ray/HDDVD again.

I do buy CDs. I HATE buying music online. Its a rip-off. Almost the same money for 1/10th the quality. I dont think so. Online-only digital/music wont be the future for along time. Hell, I can still get new music on vinyl. :)

[Beamerboy]

Aint that the truth. Im not really sure how to deal with it. I know I cant make a difference. Im not sure how many people can. The EFF I think is doing a good job at representing us but like you said "money". Its a bitch.

See for me, I dont buy DVDs. I rent 'em via NetFlix. Im not gonna have this massive collection only to buy it all Blue-ray/HDDVD again.

I do buy CDs. I HATE buying music online. Its a rip-off. Almost the same money for 1/10th the quality. I dont think so. Online-only digital/music wont be the future for along time. Hell, I can still get new music on vinyl. :)

But by purchasing new cd's or any new media (whether online or otherwise) you are literally paying to have you rights removed, as ultimately a portion of the money you spend will go towards lobbies and the development of even more DRM technologies.

If you really want to make a difference, the first thing you need to do is to stop buying their products completely. the second step is to put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) and complain to your elected officials.

Everyone says they can't make a difference, but if everyone who thought that actually took the 10 minutes or so required to send an email or write a letter, these elected officials would be swamped and would be forced to do something about it.

Beamerboy

[NoTiG]

So content makers shouldnt have the right to protect it simply because currently, laws are outdated? Also we want to use the "products and services" in was they werent intended. Their fault and ours. If Blue-Ray movie disks are only ment to be played/desinged for stand-alones people wont like that and wont accept that. But instead of just not buying 'em they will try to break whatever encryption is on the disk. Is that really the way to go? Some of it is just human nature. We wanna know how somethings works.

I think they shouldnt be able too. ANd this would solve alot of problems. All media should just be open... and if people share it.. then thats life.. and if people try to take it and sell it (bootleg) then they should be arrested. The problem is no matter what kind of technology they use.. it will Never , ever , ever stop people from copying it. its an impossibility since the information is designed to be seen. What it does is only makes it harder for honest people to make backup copies, for storage or to watch it on other mediums (like the computer) . They just need to STOP . period. The problem is they are so greedy they think they will actually lose sales if people share with each other.... but this is proven false in the real world. And even if it wasnt false, the simple fact of having it distributed over a wider base by being open will expose it to more people and probably lead to more sales. Furthermore, even if you pirate it.. it is not necessarily stealing because they have lost nothing.

I havent watched movies lately simply because there havent been any good ones lately. whats with the dismal movies as of late ?

[MetalMusicAddict]

But by purchasing new cd's or any new media (whether online or otherwise) you are literally paying to have you rights removed, as ultimately a portion of the money you spend will go towards lobbies and the development of even more DRM technologies.
This kinda depends on what record companies you buy from. I listen to alot of independant music. But yea, this is a hard one to dodge. If you dont want to support the record companies buy it used. There are TONS of stores that sell 'em and the record companies dont get paid twice. ;)

Im also not totally against DRM. Sorry. :(

If you really want to make a difference, the first thing you need to do is to stop buying their products completely. the second step is to put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) and complain to your elected officials.

Everyone says they can't make a difference, but if everyone who thought that actually took the 10 minutes or so required to send an email or write a letter, these elected officials would be swamped and would be forced to do something about it.

Beamerboy
Wrighting letters aint gonna help. I just dont believe it anymore. Money counts. Vote for or aginst companies with you cash and get elected people who wont sell us out. Though that is a difficult balance also. :) I wouldnt want to be in politics. :)

[MetalMusicAddict]

I think they shouldnt be able too.
Well we'll just agree to disagree here. :)

What it does is only makes it harder for honest people to make backup copies, for storage or to watch it on other mediums (like the computer)
If it wasnt ment to be played on a PC we shouldnt be able to. I think it would be nice to make stand-alones interface with PCs. Then play them from there. I do belive in fair-use but alot of people just wanna pirate things for the "scene points". They dont care what it does. This make fair-use harder.

The problem is they are so greedy they think they will actually lose sales if people share with each other.... but this is proven false in the real world.
Tell this to the people I whoo know who have the money, and do buy DVDs, but will buy a bootleg 1st because its cheaper.

Furthermore, even if you pirate it.. it is not necessarily stealing because they have lost nothing.
I do believe there is a percentage of lost sales. How much? I have no clue.

I havent watched movies lately simply because there havent been any good ones lately. whats with the dismal movies as of late ?
Oh here is where your really wrong. :) Ive seen a ton of good movies as of late. What are you into?

[NoTiG]

Well we'll just agree to disagree here. :)

If it wasnt ment to be played on a PC we shouldnt be able to. I think it would be nice to make stand-alones interface with PCs. Then play them from there. I do belive in fair-use but alot of people just wanna pirate things for the "scene points". They dont care what it does. This make fair-use harder.

Tell this to the people I whoo know who have the money, and do buy DVDs, but will buy a bootleg 1st because its cheaper.

I do believe there is a percentage of lost sales. How much? I have no clue.

Oh here is where your really wrong. :) Ive seen a ton of good movies as of late. What are you into?

You can disagree, but remember that its impossible to stop people from copying something that is designed to be seen. And if someone does pirate something, it is not necessarily a lost sale because there is a good chance they wouldnt have bought it in the first place if it wasn't available for free. Im guessing that of all pirated stuff, only maybe 5 % or something would actually have been bought if it wasnt available, but the industry calculates it as 100% which is funny.

Despite what the industry thinks, people are generally good in nature. They are willing to spend their money on something they enjoy and like... and are likely to contribute and support in that even if it was available for free.

I havent seen any good movies lately... the last movie i went to see was the devil wears Prada >< :P

[Beamerboy]

This kinda depends on what record companies you buy from. I listen to alot of independant music. But yea, this is a hard one to dodge. If you dont want to support the record companies buy it used. There are TONS of stores that sell 'em and the record companies dont get paid twice. ;)

The industry are trying to make this illegal too and their newest technologies are designed to prevent this. If I remember correctly it is rumoured that the PS3 will have technology in place (recently patented) to tie all games to a single device, making resale or rental of games impossible for that platform.



Wrighting letters aint gonna help. I just dont believe it anymore. Money counts. Vote for or aginst companies with you cash and get elected people who wont sell us out. Though that is a difficult balance also. :) I wouldnt want to be in politics. :)

Writing letters costs the people who have to read them, money. As I previously pointed out, if enough letters are written, the administration costs of dealing with them will become significant. Every single letter you right to an elected official has to be read, either by a member of their staff or by the elected official it has been sent to. All these people are paid for their time and all of these "departments" have budgets to adhere to. The resources available are far from infinite. One letter equates to the following:

When it arrives at the relevant office the post room must record it and sort it to go to the relevant person. For a single letter this will probably take about 1 minute. Ergo 600 letters would take approximately 10 man hours to process in the mail room. Lets assume the mail room staff are paid $10 an hour (a conservative estimate) so for this first stage of the process $100 of the office budget has been spent on sorting the mail.

Then the post must be delivered, whereas this cost is negligable it is still a cost.

Then someone has to actually read these 600 letters. Each letter will conceivably take upto 10 minutes to read. Thats 100 hours and the person reading the letters will be on a higher rate of pay than the mail room staff, so lets assume $12 an hour (again very conservative). That equates to using $1200 of the office budget and gives a cumulative cost so far of $1300 and 110 hours.

These letters would then need to be brought to the attention of a more senior member of staff in order to determine what to do with them. Lets say 50% are discarded (in reality non of them should be discarded) and 50% are set aside for a response. Now the costs start to rise significantly, since the letters will need to be re-read by someone earning a higher rate of pay than the previous person. A percentage of those letters will need to be replied to, which means someone needs to draft a letter, that then needs processing, sent to the mail room to be posted and then of course there is the cost of the postage. Again this takes real time and real money in wages, to be accomplished.

Some of the letters will also need to be read by the elected official but enroute it will need to go through many other members of the office workforce, each one on a higher rate of pay than the previous.

So even for just 600 letters there is a significant cost involved. In any one constituency there may be hundreds of thousands of people. So if that 600 letters become 6000 or 60 000 the cost of processing them becomes astronimical. It will eventually reach a point where someone will have to take action. They don't have the option of simply ignoring you, as that will alienate the voters and is likely to lead to a new official being elected in the next voting session. That leaves on alternative, which is to start looking at the issue and adhering to the demands of the public.

Politics is an interactive process. The politicians do not have power, the politicians represent YOUR power and act on your demands. They are your servants and when they don't do their job properly and **** off the voters, they are replaced. However apathetic you feel about the political system the only people to blame for its failure are the people it represents and the people who give it the authority it holds, those people being the voters.

The only way to commit political change is to get involved. this is exactly the reason why the corporations get what they want, because they -are- involved. They understand how the system works and take advantage of an apathetic public by actively engaging in politics through lobbies. And of course, they have little or no competition because the public generally are -not- involved.

A politician can only make a decision or take action based on the information they have. If all the arguments (or overwhelming majority) are coming from corporate interests without contest from the electorate, then they are perfectly justified in basing their actions on this, because at the end of the day, that is their job.

I know this sounds a little long winded, but it really is a very simple logic. To make a change you have to be involved, by not being involved you are not having your rights taken, you are giving them away.

[MetalMusicAddict]

The industry are trying to make this illegal too and their newest technologies are designed to prevent this. If I remember correctly it is rumoured that the PS3 will have technology in place (recently patented) to tie all games to a single device, making resale or rental of games impossible for that platform.
I'd be suprised if this came to pass. I would gather there is a good ammount of money made on rentals. Lots of places would collapse it this happened.

If it does. I wont be buying a PS3. ;)

"long winded" post :)
I see what you mean and do agree to a point. Maybe Im just jaded about it right now. ;)

[grte]

Yes, they do, just like you dont have to buy it.

No, they don't. They have the legal right to fight copyright infringment, they do not have the right to decide on which device you will play your media on.

This is why you can use emulators legally if you own the game. Nintendo can't tell you you must play a SNES game on a SNES. They can only tell you you have to purchase a legal copy of the game.