To New Users and those thinking about using Linux: the Rude Fisherman

[DoctorMO]

For all those who come to the forum and feel that your questions get nothing but scorn, your logic ignored and your valid points of critism defended with illogical posts:

A man walks into a village, he's walked many miles in search of a place to live and set up a small fish shop. he meets lots of friendly people as he enters the village; everyone is interested to see the stranger.

As he goes up to the tavern, with every ones attention now drawn to him. he proclaims that he wishes to set up his fish shop and maybe even move to this idilic place. if he finds it a nice enough place.

Everyone is happy, they have found someone willing to share in the community.

Then the trouble starts, he points out that where he comes from they use silver coins as money but this village uses diamonds which is not what he's dealt with and they use Kilograms instead of good old pounds and ounces! He's also got problems with the beer from the only tavern, 'why don't they sell winkles in this tavern, they only sell brew pit, never heard of that before! How will he ever make a living here will all these things that he doesn't understand, how can he enjoy this place without a drink of beer?'

Everyone in the village really likes this new guy and tries to get him to try the new beer and convince him that he can exchange gold for diamonds anywhere. But he complains without so much as a sip of beer; he rants on about the possible exchange rates which would mean death to his fishery business and it's just not the same as back home buying in pounds and being forced to sell in killios 'You should all use pounds from now on!' he demands.

The villagers are a bit annoyed by this rudeness, they don't expect people to berate their cultural ways like this. unfortunately things get out of hand when the visitor calls the village 'nothing but a quaint back water, and will never be more than a hamlet really' people nerves are strung.

Needless to say his rudeness in this community lead the villagers to force him to leave and tout his fishery business and iggnorance else where.

the moral of the story is: If you came to Linux expecting a technical support team to complain to, you've failed and instead found a community. full of people who care deeply about their friends and neighbors.

Please bare this in mind when you post things like 'Linux will never be more than a toy'

[aysiu]

Something else to keep in mind--people generally believe that the choices they've made are good choices. In fact, even when people have made bad choices, they often justify those choices as being good or better than the alternative (sour grapes is the relevant term here).

When you insult people's choices, you are, in a sense, insulting them. "What made you want to get your hair cut like that?" "Oh, you bought that piece of crap car?" "Couldn't find anything better than this apartment, huh?" These sorts of remarks put people on the defensive. It doesn't mean they consider their haircuts or cars or apartments to be a religion. People just don't like being insulted about the choices they make.

Likewise with operating systems.

Go to a Mac forum and proclaim, "Yeah, Mac sucks. No wonder Windows dominates the desktop." See how many positive responses you get there. Or go to a Windows forum and say, "You suckers are paying too much for a crappy OS. Why don't you use Linux?" Again, see how many positive responses you get.

It's no different in a Linux forum or, in this case, a Ubuntu forum. If you want to try Ubuntu, try it. If you have questions about it, ask questions. If you're having technical problems, describe the problems, and ask for help. You will, in all these cases, get positive responses--people tripping over themselves to help you out of the goodness of their hearts (no one here is getting paid to give you support).

If, however, you want to start a thread berating the OS choice people have made, get ready for a fight--you provoked it. It's like being invited to dinner at someone's house and complaining about the food. You didn't want the food? Cook your own damn meal! Well, you don't like Ubuntu, use something else. No one is twisting your arm to use Ubuntu.

I'm of the opinion that no OS (just like a fishing community, a restaurant, a car, a haircut, an apartment, etc.) is for everyone. For some, Windows is the most appropriate OS. For others, Mac OS X is. Then there are Linux users. And then there are people who use still something else. Then, there are people who don't use general-purpose computers at all.

Use what works for you. Respect others' choices. Ask questions. Get answers. Be polite.

Further Reading:
Rant: Attitude makes a big difference (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=98623)

[skirkpatrick]

And one other thing to keep in mind: this isn't a help desk. Don't expect an answer to your question within 30 minutes of posting. Some of us only check the forums once a day or (gasp!) every couple of days. Sometimes the posts get past us. Also, wouldn't you rather have somebody answer your question who knows what he's talking about? There are lots of members of these forums but most of them haven't experienced your particular problem and probably aren't the best ones to help.

[aysiu]

And one other thing to keep in mind: this isn't a help desk. Don't expect an answer to your question within 30 minutes of posting. Some of us only check the forums once a day or (gasp!) every couple of days. Sometimes the posts get past us. Also, wouldn't you rather have somebody answer your question who knows what he's talking about? There are lots of members of these forums but most of them haven't experienced your particular problem and probably aren't the best ones to help.
Further Reading:
To all those with zero-reply threads... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=82471&highlight=zero-reply+threads)

[DoctorMO]

I agree aysiu, my hope is that our guests will understand why they get such responses.

[ubuntu_demon]

Great thread!

I've added a link to this thread in the README FIRST.. of the absolute beginners section here :
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=232059

[AndyCooll]

DoctorMo, Aysiu ...agree with you absolutely! Couldn't have put it better myself!

:cool:

[Brunellus]

Great thread!

I've added a link to this thread in the README FIRST.. of the absolute beginners section here :
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=232059
I love READMEs. They...aren't. Those people who SHOULD read the README never do; the people who DO read the README probably wouldn't have had to.

[Lord Illidan]

Good post.

[MrLeN]

Well -- all I can say is that if you think I am a fisherman that has come here and done nothing but complain without trying a thing, you're wrong. I just woke up now after spending a FULL 24 hours trying, using, asking about and considering absolutely everything I can get my hands on. I am going to post a link to the threads that caused this one, because if you want new users to take this post seriously -- then they should also know why it came about -- because of me!

My First Community Thread: I am considering Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=254252)

My Second community Thread: My Conclusion of Ubuntu as a User Candidate (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=254928)

There's a third thread coming; a conclusive post which describes what I found - with my full, complete and objective thoughts and opinions.

Now in my humble opinion, and I'll be completely honest because I am not one to kid or fool myself. Yeah, sure -- I said a few things that might cause a Ubuntu user to want to correct me. I think the most offensive thing I said is that I view Ubuntu as more of a toy than as a viable standalone Desktop OS. Now, I do understand that those words in themselves might sound a bit disheartening for Ubuntu users, but my point was certainly not to blow holes in Ubuntu; because believe me, If I set out to do that I'd have a lot more to say, and it wouldn't be said on just these forums. If I decided to wage war against Ubuntu, my statements would be much more harsh, they me much more prominent and they'd continue for YEARS.

So let's not confuse matters -- most of what I have said about Ubuntu as been nothing but praise. I have been totally honest and UNBIAS. Even though my experience with Linux in the past has caused me to believe that it sucks as a Desktop OS, my experience with Ubuntu was refreshing, educational and as I have already stated many times; Ubuntu has exceeded my expectations, far and beyond.

I believe that you should not be badgering new users, regardless of what they say or believe, because if you do not find a new approach to deal with new users that you perceive as having raw and vague questions about Ubuntu, then you're just going to continually burn them. Posts like this do not help the community. I know all about communities, as I am a member of hundreds of them online. This is probably my 50,000th online post. What you should do is create a post on how to be objective when new users, who are accustomed to Windows, come to the forum with questions and what you perceive as incorrect view.

Posts like this one serve NO good purpose for a community. You should not be encouraging community members to badger new and potential users who have foreign concepts and questions. Even if someone comes here with absolutely NO idea and utters the most ridiculous things; things that make you literally fall off your chair in laughter or smash your fist into your desk in anger, you should always be objective because new users have no idea what your collective views are. And let's face it -- you all can't be 100% right. Opinions are opinions. Not once did I ever say anything even remotely SIMILAR to "ah, Mac sucks. No wonder Windows dominates the desktop" (aysiu).. and to DoctorMo: "But he complains without so much as a sip of beer" -- this is a very poor analogy, because I highly doubt whether too many people have tried and installed so many applications in their first 24 hours as I did.

As a matter of fact, I resent your whole analogy of my situation. It is not even close to what actually happened, and if that is sincerely the way you view and understand my entrance onto the board then it's any wonder you feel lead to make posts such as this. I can easily go back over my first two threads and start quoting incorrect accusations, misquotes and sarcasm. I could fill an entire page with all the unfair statements and community badgering that I was subjected to, while doing my best to remain calm and objective.

I said even more positive things about Ubuntu than I did negative. I said MANY more positive things, and I praised Ubuntu highly. I asked questions and I put in a massive and genuine attempt to give Ubuntu a real go. However, all my praises and positive comments were largely ignored and the community simply pounced on things they don't like. Now let me ask you this -- if you guys have a new member (such as myself) who is totally objective and is able to withstand what I can only describe as a lynching while trying to remain honest and sincere about trying out Ubunto, then WHAT hope have you got for any other user? What on earth is this thread supposed to accomplish? This thread serves NO good purpose. It is insulting to me, because the analogy is REALLY stretching things and at least 50% back to front as to what actually happened, and what gets me the most is that the post has received nothing but praise.

Can't you all see that this is not a good way to conduct a community? You'd be better off spending your time making posts on how to combat objections, and "what to say when someone asks..", and "what to say when someone states..", and "what to say when someone believes..". But just promoting a lynch mob on these forums and literally ganging up on a GENUINE new member, who has had to defend himself since registering is not only weak, but it's pathetic.

MrLeN

[Brunellus]

MrLeN:

Chill out. OP was addressing himself to a problem that is forum-wide, and not restricted to any single thread.

Every six months, we get a raft of LINUX ISN'T READY FOR THE DESKTOP KTHXBAI thread/users/posters. Most of the time, "not ready" is defined as "does not behave identically to windows."

It's tiresome, because most of us know that "not behaving identically" does not necessarily mean that a Linux OS does not ultimately achieve the same ends. Many new users come to know this as well, and simply get on with their Linux lives: using Firefox or Konqueror instead of IE; OpenOffice instead of MS Office; GAIM instead of AIM; Xchat instead of mIRC, and so forth.

It's not that we don't accept the possibility of improvement, or changes. There are plenty of threads on that. But thoughts on change and improvment carry a different weight when expressed by a long-time user. The experienced user may well and truly be sick of the way things are done, and can have very strong opinions on them, because he has had the opportunity to evaluate existing ways and means extensively.

A new user swaggering in, demanding wholesale changes? That's a different thing.

[DoctorMO]

I disagree here MrLeN, not only was this post not aimed directly at you since I understand you to be trying to be objective; but I feel you misunderstand two things 1) personal responsibility for what you say, and 2) the rights of the community.

In some of your posts you were not objective and openly criticised linux/ubuntu with no ground to stand on, you are responsible for these remarks and for the anger you induced in others because of them. failure to anticipate a communities response is not the fault of the community. here be dragons.

It is the right of a community to not help you, to ignore you and to defend it's self. You deem your rights to receive help or to make unfounded criticism without defensive responses to be above that of the community. You are wrong.

The point of this thread it to get new users to understand that this isn't just a haggled bunch of people responding to posts in a mindless and infinity tolerant way all for the good of the whole movement of linux and ubuntu. there are real people who are not paid to make you happy.

[Lord Illidan]

Imagine the responses you would get if you walked into a Windows or Apple forum and told them the equivalent of what you said here...Uproar..

We try to help people..but people who make things difficult for us, then we cannot help but feel angry.

And Linux to us is not just an OS..or just a toy.

[Brunellus]

Imagine the responses you would get if you walked into a Windows or Apple forum and told them the equivalent of what you said here...Uproar..

We try to help people..but people who make things difficult for us, then we cannot help but feel angry.

And Linux to us is not just an OS..or just a toy.
linux is not ready for the toybox?

[MrLeN]

Brunellus,


Chill out. OP was addressing himself to a problem that is forum-wide, and not restricted to any single thread.

This post was directed towards my arrival and is just another jab in the kidney as far as I can see.


Every six months, we get a raft of LINUX ISN'T READY FOR THE DESKTOP KTHXBAI thread/users/posters. Most of the time, "not ready" is defined as "does not behave identically to windows."

For a start, how are new users supposed to know about this? Why make Ubuntu forums hostile territory just because of your past? This is called having a chip on ones shoulder. I honestly, sincerely and genuinely did NOT come here in search of an argument. If I felt link that, I'd go find some controversial subject online and give someone a roasting. I'd find a post on evolution. That's always a good one. But if new users come to the forums and mention things along the lines of stuff you'd already been arguing about -- then how is that new member to know? I know that when I made the comment that for my purposes, Ubuntu would be more of a toy, I got (and in quotes) an objection of "Linux is not ready for the desktop" -- I was like Whoa.. I didn't know about that "sentiment". I was just saying what I thought, and if that was coincidently similar to the basis of previous arguments, how am I supposed to know? So I think everyone around here should just chill, not me. Although I HAVE been trying to chill. I have politely responded to almost every comment made to me.


It's tiresome, because most of us know that "not behaving identically" does not necessarily mean that a Linux OS does not ultimately achieve the same ends. Many new users come to know this as well, and simply get on with their Linux lives: using Firefox or Konqueror instead of IE; OpenOffice instead of MS Office; GAIM instead of AIM; Xchat instead of mIRC, and so forth.

I have absolutely NO doubt in my mind that Linux is capable of doing everything that commercial operating systems can do -- eventually, and especially once commercial companies start taking more notice. However, at the current rate that is going to take another decade. If you look at my first post, where I used IBM as an analogy, how did they go out of business? It was because of all the IBM compatible hardware. These days IBM doesn't even make computers, they are a solutions company. Why? Because of "compatibility". Compatibility killed IBM!

Secondly, I have never stated that Ubuntu should not be used by anyone merely because it can't run windows software, even though I am adamant that I need many of my windows programs for my income and work. All I "insisted" on is that it would be NICE if there was some sort of bridge along those lines so that the rest of the world can utilize Linux with the billions of dollars worth of software that they've already created/purchased. It is obviously not a new sentiment, otherwise programs such as wine wouldn't have been created. It is merely logical -- and I believe that if more gaps were bridged in regards to Windows compatibility then Linux as an OS would SOAR. And I only say that because I would LOVE to see that. I would sincerely LOVE to see people saying: "Yes, Linux has its own ambitions and eventually will be mainstream enough for commercial developers to take notice and write software for, but for the time being, being able to run Windows programs is a good thing and will only serve to inject Linux as a Desktop OS further into the mainstream."

I am not going on and on about this subject. I said it ONCE, but it keeps being thrown back at me, so I have to keep responding. One other post in a previous thread said that I had been told "time and time again, but I keep going on". No I am not going on. I made my comments once, and it was some in the community that went "on and on" -- since then, I have been merely defending myself and ducking blows. I am being cast in a light which is contrary to what I actually believe, so i have to keep reiterating my piint in the hope that someone will finally say: "Oh, no everyoine chill. He's not one of THEM -- put your sticks down".

I honestly believe that you've had too many arguments with people in regards to such sentiments that when I showed up, you just saw my body with the head of who ever you've been arguing with superimposed onto my shoulders. I am NOT trying to cause a "Linux should be Windows" debate. I am merely stating something logical, and I haven't even been adamant on it. I am merely suggesting that it would be nice if a Linux OS could run windows programs. Not only would that be a MAJOR benefit to systems like Ubuntu, but it would also combat just about all reservations I have in regards to the possibility of using Ubuntu full time; which I'll add: I'd sincerely LOVE to.

But at the end of the day, I really don't even CARE! I am genuinely investigating Ubuntu and I am trying it out. Yes I have stated my wishes and cripes, but I'd hardly say that I have flamed Ubuntu -- but on the contrary I have had some very good things to say about it, and Ubuntu has exceeded my expectations. I really don't understand why so many people around here have becomes shadows in the corner of my eye.


A new user swaggering in, demanding wholesale changes? That's a different thing.

It's the new users such as myself that Ubuntu should be taking the MOST notice of.

Doctor MO,


In some of your posts you were not objective and openly criticised linux/ubuntu with no ground to stand on, you are responsible for these remarks and for the anger you induced in others because of them. failure to anticipate a communities response is not the fault of the community. here be dragons.

I came here to try out Ubuntu, and since that time I have been EXTREMELY objective. Even with very low expectations, I gave Ubuntu a REAL go. Since I have installed Ubuntu, I have been totally honest and praised everything that I saw that was good. You can't expect people to come here and say: "I LOVE it! It's PERFECT!" Like I have stated previously -- If you guys treat a new user who is more than willing to give Ubuntu a real go (which I absolutely and most assuredly have), then I'd hate to see how many genuinely interested parties you burn.

Lord Illidan,


Imagine the responses you would get if you walked into a Windows or Apple forum and told them the equivalent of what you said here...Uproar..

Am I in the twighlight zone? I think I know what's happened here. I think that members here have somehow not read all my posts and have just somehow caught onto the sentiment that I hate Ubuntu and that Windows is fantastic and that I wont use Ubuntu unless it runs just as Windows does. This is what I am defending myself against. What is going in here? You're all messing witg my head -- I am confused. Am I being punked? There's cameras everywhere right? Ha ha! I am being Punked right? Good one -- where are the cameras??


And Linux to us is not just an OS..or just a toy.

If I have top defend myself against this statement one more time I am going to throw up. I am not even going to BOTHER. Read the previous posts. Don't just regurgitate sentiments -- You'll see that I do NOT hold that view.


We try to help people..but people who make things difficult for us, then we cannot help but feel angry.

Ok this is just turning into an outright beating. I think I just have to stop replying. I don't know what to do. I have invested hours into trying to be polite and objective. I spent a whole day yesterday trying Ubuntu. I have treated everyone with respect and I am here coping a beating. I am very close to actually losing the plot now, so I think I have to stop replying or remove myself from the forums or something, before you finally break me and cause me to say something which WILL make me out to look like a trouble maker.

The last thing I have to say is that this is one sad situation.

MrLeN

[aysiu]

I don't think you're sending a very consistent message...



Secondly, I have never stated that Ubuntu should not be used by anyone merely because it can't run windows software


So if Ubuntu doesn't already have a big red button on the desktop saying: "LAUNCH WINDOWS", even if it is not used as an OS, but serves merely to allow me to communicate across both platforms -- then quite frankly, I can't see Ubuntu ever becoming more popular. Ubuntu needs to battle with transition issues, and not just try to convert the world "cold turkey".

[DoctorMO]

Ok ok, enough everybody he's not one of those! put the damn sticks down.

[MrLeN]

I don't think you're sending a very consistent message...

What is wrong with you? These statements do not contradict each other. First of, all you've pulled them out of the context that they were in. Secondly, you've progressed from badgering me to outright attacking me now. What am I to do?

One this is for sure -- the ring of members that are concerned with my recent posts are a disruption to this community and a thorn in its side. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

MrLeN

[Demio]

So, you come to these forums badgering about how Ubuntu < Windows and how your fav. apps don't run in Ubuntu and how you love Windows so much.

What would you expect from a community when you come in and attack what it defends? Really, you're either missing the whole point of these forums or you have some lose screws in your head..

[DoctorMO]

Demio, enough. he's had his beating and I don't recon anyone needs that much. he knows what he did was not good thats all any body can ask.

[Demio]

Yea I guess. I just don't like when people come to these forums and start pointless "Windows > all" threads and then act like we owe them something and that we should activley try to convince them to try Linux.

[BLTicklemonster]

A fisherman is going about his business one day, and comes across a bottle with a note in it. He extracts the note, and lo and behold, the note proclaims there to be a great new village in existance which rivals his village. (which he's tired of, because every time he wants to put air in his tires, he has to read and sign an EULA), so off he goes to this village.

Once there, he finds that he CAN'T MOVE! He has legs and feet, but he's stuck in one place. (this is not meant to parallel anything in particular) He sees a passerby and asks, "how do I get my legs working?"

"gnarflibidip, of course"

"How?"

"RTFM"

Puzzled, but not swayed, the fisherman likes what he sees of the village, and decides to keep trying.

A grizzled old man comes along, and the fisherman askes once again, "how do I get my legs working?"

"search for the answer"

"where?"

"under a rock"

Looking around, the fisherman notices thousands upon thousands of rocks. "all of them?"

"No, the one with your answer will have your question on the top", says the old man, as he walks away.

the fisherman notices that there are hundreds upon hundreds of rocks with "how do I get my legs working?" on them, and suddenly realizes that they are out of his reach. "oh no, how can I get to the rocks to weed through them all and seek out my answer if I can't even get to the rocks in the first place?" he thinks to himself.

Then, in a fit of anger, he proclaims loudly, "THIS PLACE SUCKS!"

"RTFM, Noob!!!" is the reply he gets.

then aysiu comes along and says, "dude, go to the terminal, and type in sudo apt-get install walk"

End of story.

Actually, I was going somewhere else with that, but I got interupted and forgot what I was going to say. But it was along the lines of "hang in there".

[DoctorMO]

You know the anwser to that, if you want something in Linux that hasn't been written yet... the write it.

It's a cultural thing, and I don't think he really directly said that windows was better, just that all his apps that he's spent money on only worked in Windows which again is a cultural thing.

[monktbd]

with my full, complete and objective thoughts and opinions.

i think that opinion and objective are words that really do not go together well. they are opposite of each other.
but i can perfectly see that you try to weigh the advantages of both worlds as objective as you can in your subjective opinion. and that is a good thing and surely the best way one can do it.
and i can see that you are glad and excited about the progress you made so far. i wonder if the progress will ever be enough to make you switch or at least consider a proper dualboot.
also i dont think it is fair to judge appliactions that you used for a few days to the ones you used for months, maybe years.
of course i can see the drop in productivity with having some features and options missing - at least having them missing at first glance.


i dont think that the choice of an OS can ever be an objective one. it always depends on the users needs, sometimes the user cannot choose and is forced by some higher authority to use a certain OS (work, school, etc..).

probably the majority of users give the highest importance to applications they are used to and want to keep using. perfectly fine and understandable.
some users are also concerned about what is behind the applications they use. they are not only interested in whether the application does what it should do but also whether that application supports a certain ideology called open source software. also a perfectly fine reason.


This post was directed towards my arrival and is just another jab in the kidney as far as I can see.


One this is for sure -- the ring of members that are concerned with my recent posts are a disruption to this community and a thorn in its side. You should be ashamed of yourselves.


you probably see things different but i think that your posts are not as important to this community as a whole as you think they are.

i dont think at all that this forum is hostile. this whole forum is maybe a bit unpersonal at times because of its size.
but people are generally very very helpful and looking in the absolute beginners section you can see how often the same questions are patiently answered. if someone is fed up with the same answer every day then another one will do it.
i am personally amazed how little the use of the search function is advocated on these forums, i know other forums - also very civil ones - where an answer is often not a step by step instruction but merely a link to an older post with explanations or just feeding the person with the right terms to get the correct result with the search.

[MrLeN]

Yea I guess. I just don't like when people come to these forums and start pointless "Windows > all" threads and then act like we owe them something and that we should activley try to convince them to try Linux.

This is the part where I refrain from using no less than a dozen colorful words with capitals, brackets and exclamation marks. But I must say, politely: I did not do that. You are merely replying to regurgitated sentiments.

MrLeN

[BLTicklemonster]

Wait a minute, everyone back off for a minute.

MrLen has a problem, and it has manifested itself in him feeling a need to vent. THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING that can happen here is to meet him toe to toe and say "oh yeah? yo momma!!"

So what if he disses anything, don't let it get to you.

MrLen, it's going to take more than a day to get all this going the way you want. I didn't look at your threads, but being from the windows community, I can state that I have seen machines that would not take win xp until you had jumped through flaming hoops, and I have seen xp systems that were identical to other xp systems, yet you could not get certain things to work the same way no matter what you did.

You're learning a whole new thing here, not a clone of something else. It is not presented as a clone of something else, never will be. This was disconcerting to me when I started trying ubuntu last year, and I got really really really ticked off many times. (I even took a haitus for 6 months while I was working on something else, but I'm back)

Expect to take a while to learn what is going on. (how many countries speak the same language as you do? go to one and demand attention in your native tongue...)

Sorry, that ubuntu isn't what you thought it would be, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of what it was last year.

Relax, take your time, get used to it. You'll be glad you did.

[MrLeN]

BLTicklemonster,


Wait a minute, everyone back off for a minute.

Yeah, leave me alone!


MrLen has a problem, and it has manifested itself in him feeling a need to vent.

I have absolutely no problem whatsoever, and I certainly haven't vented anything. A friend told me about Ubuntu, so I decided to try it out. I am not unhappy with what I have seen with Ubuntu, and I have continually posted comments of praise. I like Ubuntu, and for the past 24 hours, I have been happily checking everything out. I have enjoyed myself.


THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING that can happen here is to meet him toe to toe and say "oh yeah? yo momma!!"

Especially when I am not here to go toe to toe, and that I've spent no less than half my posts ducking jabs.


So what if he disses anything, don't let it get to you.

I have not dissed anything. I have merely stated what I believe to be true; but I'll add that as a person that is receptive and capable of learning that those views are by no means set in concrete. There have been dozens of comments and posts that I disagree with, with utmost conviction, but I didn't start pulling people up on those opinions. There's no point in that. I merely responded with my view -- while ducking blows.


MrLen, it's going to take more than a day to get all this going the way you want.

Of course. I have no problem with that.


I didn't look at your threads,

Don't worry, neither did anyone else by the looks of things.


but being from the windows community, I can state that I have seen machines that would not take win xp until you had jumped through flaming hoops, and I have seen xp systems that were identical to other xp systems, yet you could not get certain things to work the same way no matter what you did.

I absolutely agree. I have spent DAYS trying to get Windows running, through much pain and anguish.


You're learning a whole new thing here,

Agreed.


not a clone of something else.

Agreed.


It is not presented as a clone of something else, never will be.

Agreed, but I still think it would help to inject Linux into the mainstream if it could run Windows applications. And I must add, I don't sat that because I prefer Windows, or even like Windows. Truth be known -- I can't STAND Windows a large portion of the time and I am sure it has taken years off my life.


This was disconcerting to me when I started trying Ubuntu last year, and I got really really really ticked off many times. (I even took a haitus for 6 months while I was working on something else, but I'm back)

My story will likely end up being similar.



Expect to take a while to learn what is going on.

I have stated the very same thing myself.


(how many countries speak the same language as you do? go to one and demand attention in your native tongue...)

I have not demanded anything.


Sorry, that ubuntu isn't what you thought it would be, but it's leaps and bounds ahead of what it was last year.

To the contrary; I have stated several times that Ubuntu has exceeded my expectations far and beyond.


Relax, take your time, get used to it. You'll be glad you did.

I am trying, but it would be nice if I could do that and hang around here without a bunch of lunatics with chips on their shoulders badgering me and pulling single statements out and quoting them over and over again and making me out to be a person that is here to propagate only those handful of views. It would be nice if those that enter the conversation at a later date, without reading any of it, would just shut up instead of regurgitating the last set up beatings; ie: Demio

MrLeN

[Demio]

To your surprise I actually read your thread and the conversation in this one.

You were complaining about the lack of substitutes for what you were used to in M$ Windows and that Ubuntu was too different from Windows.

Ubuntu is not supposed to be a copy of Windows, and it's supposed to be different from it (thank god).

[DoctorMO]

*** DoctorMO Hits Domino with a large unharmed fish ****

Behave yourself because all you've done Domino is give the impresion that we're not willing to learn from our mistakes as much as a windows user.


I am trying, but it would be nice if I could do that and hang around here without a bunch of lunatics with chips on their shoulders badgering me and pulling single statements out and quoting them over and over again and making me out to be a person that is here to propagate only those handful of views. It would be nice if those that enter the conversation at a later date, without reading any of it, would just shut up instead of regurgitating the last set up beatings; ie: Demio

I ate all my chips with the above fish, besides I recon your an alright bloke.

I think I mentioned before that there was a thread started by silver that seem to get people fustrated, because all he would ever do is repeat over and over the same illogical arguments and critism. now I think some board members have lost their ability to understand when an argument isn't being made. forgive them please.

[Demio]

Well, the problem is that I already had admited to being too hard:



Yea I guess. I just don't like when people come to these forums and start pointless "Windows > all" threads and then act like we owe them something and that we should activley try to convince them to try Linux.

And he still pulls out my name out like I was throwing stones at him :-k

So I guess I'll just refrain from posting in this kind of thread in the future. I really don't give a rats *** if little Billy likes Windows better than Ubuntu, or vice-versa. I'll just use these forums for technical reasons and stay away from the Cafe.](*,)

[DoctorMO]

Sorry Demio it wasn't clear even to me you were being reconsileratory.

[MrLeN]

Demio,


To your surprise I actually read your thread and the conversation in this one.

Well, I submit that you assuredly did not. You're only saying so because it sounds good.


You were complaining about the lack of substitutes for what you were used to in M$ Windows

"Complaining" is a strong word; as I merely mentioned it and certainly was not "complaining". It's only when some people started making a case out of my judgments where the thread turned into an endless debate over whether Ubuntu offers enough software. I still maintain that it does not, but I don't see the need to have to keep arguing about it. It's just a fact. Simple.


and that Ubuntu was too different from Windows

I most certainly did not say anything of the sort. I acknowledge that it's different, but every "difference" I commented on was followed by praise, ie: I am impressed by which the speed at which Ubuntu runs. I love the fact that I can run so many apps all at once. I commented on the easer of installation and the fact that I like the desktop layout. I absolutely did not complain about the fact that Ubuntu is different to Windows; and why should I? It's a good thing that Linux is different than Windows, because it's a better OS imho -- why would you assert that I have stated the contrary?


Ubuntu is not supposed to be a copy of Windows

I am running short of patience with you, so I'm just going to say: Duh.


and it's supposed to be different from it (thank god).

See above.


And he still pulls out my name out like I was throwing stones at him

I pulled out your name because your comments were the most ridiculous and arrogant. What you stated:



Yea I guess. I just don't like when people come to these forums and start pointless "Windows > all" threads and then act like we owe them something and that we should activley try to convince them to try Linux.



..was 1). Nasty 2). Incorrect 3). Not helping the conversation 4). was made right after another such post.


So I guess I'll just refrain from posting in this kind of thread in the future. I really don't give a rats ***

Yes, please do refrain, because if you really don't give a rats ***, then you should not participate in giving a bloke that's already coping a beating a harder time, with senseless and incorrect comments.


if little Billy likes Windows better than Ubuntu, or vice-versa. I'll just use these forums for technical reasons and stay away from the Cafe.

I do not like Windows better than Ubuntu and I have stated as such a heap of times now.

Promise you'll refrain from posting? I don't need you here haphazardly tossing thoughtless comments.

MrLeN

[BLTicklemonster]

Awwww, somebody needs a hug!!!



(ruuuuuns away as fast as his fat little stubby monster legs will carry him)

[MrLeN]

:confused:

MrLeN

[Brunellus]

:confused:

MrLeN
I agree, MrLeN.

Please guys, let's try to keep at least some semblance of ordered debate.

[DoctorMO]

Awwww, somebody needs a hug!!!

I'm the faery! I get to dish out the hugs!

Besides there isn't really any debate going on here.

[BLTicklemonster]

Wow, the posts are coming in fast. I was replying to demio, I think. He said he was going to use the forums for tech stuff only, and stay away from the cafe, and the run away was me, because I figured I'd get smacked for that one!

Anyway, glad it's getting civil in here now.

[Demio]

Demio,
Well, I submit that you assuredly did not. You're only saying so because it sounds good.

Err, I did.


"Complaining" is a strong word; as I merely mentioned it and certainly was not "complaining". It's only when some people started making a case out of my judgments where the thread turned into an endless debate over whether Ubuntu offers enough software. I still maintain that it does not, but I don't see the need to have to keep arguing about it. It's just a fact. Simple.
Yea it's a fact, but in the context you mentioned it was almost as if you were complaining.


I pulled out your name because your comments were the most ridiculous and arrogant. What you stated:
..was 1). Nasty 2). Incorrect 3). Not helping the conversation 4). was made right after another such post.
What? That wasn't directed at you exactly, it was more of a generalization to some of the stupidiest posts I've been reading around here by Windows zealots.

And as for the rest, you call me ridiculous and ignorant and then proceed to be condescending.

So yea, maybe I was harsh but I'm tired of all the "Ubuntu suxx0rs, Windows pwns" kind of posts that are always popping around here and I guess I vented on yours.

Was I right to do it in the first place? Maybe not.

Are you an insulting moron? Yea pretty much.

[Brunellus]

Demio, please watch your tone. Disagreeing is fine. Namecalling is not.

[BuffaloX]

There's a third thread coming; a conclusive post which describes what I found - with my full, complete and objective thoughts and opinions.
MrLeN

Objective opinions...
Talk about inconsistency, is it objective or is it opinions, or don't you know the difference? Objective opinions is nonsense.

Well I guess you tried to be objective, and then formed an opinion.
Actually a person can NEVER be objective, so anyone claiming this is lying.

[Demio]

Yea, we're both out of line, but **** happens.

[atrus123]

Dear Mr. Len,

I am very sorry that you have had negative experiences with Ubuntu Linux and the community here.

The good news is that there are many other distributions out there, each with its own, unique community. I would encourage you to spend time with several distributions to see which fits your fancy before abandoning it all together, embittered, and heading back to Windows.

A good place to start doing more research on Linux and its distributions is here: http://www.distrowatch.org

When I was just starting out, I had very good luck with Gentoo, which is a difficult distribution to use but a good way to learn how to use the inner workings of this fascinating operating system. The Gentoo documentation is top-notch, and the community is very knowledgable and always ready to help.

Best of luck to you in your future endevours.

[Brunellus]

This thread has spilled into needless name-calling and abuse. Keep it clean, keep it technical, and keep it respectful.

CLOSED.