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ThePainter
April 10th, 2005, 02:38 PM
Hi,
I loved Warty and could find no problems with it.
I dont like all the new additions and updates that have been put into hoary.
Kubuntu seems a bit more functional due to the KDE tools but still has limitations.

So Im left with Debian/KDE.
So I try Mepis and that too is Debian/KDE and it to comes on one cd only all the limitations I found in Kubnutu are not in Mepis, it is fully functional and all the plugins and extras that you have to install after the K/Ubuntu install are already there and set up.
So I ask myself why cant Ubuntu do this ?

I see lists of posts on why cant totem do this and why isnt a better media player put in to replace it and I here excuses like "We need to fit it onto one cd" ?
Mepis have a load of good media players as default all setup to play everything without juddery DVD etc.
It also comes with almost twice as many programs as Ubuntu and all on one cd.

In Ubuntu I found myself having to install and setup a load of programs thanks to the "Userguide" whereas in Mepis I have found myself uninstalling about 100 apps that I dont need, didnt need to but I like a neat OS.

This is only my opinion but Why struggle with Ubuntu when Mepis blows it away without trying ?

And I know people like the Human theme but it took me about 10 mins to adjust the KDE theme to the Human colours.

What are your opinions, have you tried Mepis and returned to Ubuntu due to preference and if so what features effected your opinion.

Buffalo Soldier
April 10th, 2005, 02:59 PM
After not touching any GNU/Linux for 7 years, I decided to try it again. What spark the interest again was an article at DesktopLinux.com (http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3135712364.html) on SimplyMEPIS.

After a week of SimplyMEPIS I was having the distro fever. Trying Fedora, Ubuntu, Suse, Debian, Crux and etc. Then stayed with Fedora about 2 weeks. But after that went to Ubuntu (Warty) and been a faithful Ubuntu user till now.

What made me left SimplyMEPIS?
KDE - I know most like it, but hey, you know what they say "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
Their IM client (Kopete) - But I heard they've abandoned Kopete for GAIM? Is this true?
Scared of sudo at first, but after trying all distro... I begin to like it
I can offer no more tangible/logical reason. Ubuntu just kind of "feel" like exactly what I want

ThePainter
April 10th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Hi,
Yes they use Gaim now.

defkewl
April 10th, 2005, 03:33 PM
What are your opinions, have you tried Mepis and returned to Ubuntu due to preference and if so what features effected your opinion.

Hi there,

I haven't tried Mepis yet, but from what you're telling me, it seems that MEPIS is more out of the box rather then Ubuntu. I had nightmare too with Hoary when I install it the first day it was released. Darn, I had to do so many things just to get things worked.

- I can't print.
- I can't play MP3
- I can't play DVD

Ok it's all nicely written in ubuntuguide, but it's takes too much time. Perhaps I'll try Mepis too see how it is compared to Ubuntu.

Thnx for informing

TravisNewman
April 10th, 2005, 03:40 PM
Yes, but have you ever installed Windows 98? Before they had agreements with mp3 patent holders? WHen you installed that, you couldn't print, play mp3s, or play dvds either, and even now you can't play dvds or print out of the box.

I know you never said that you could, I'm just trying to put it in perspective. Not everything can work out of the box.

kiddo
April 10th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Please don't compare us to win'98 ;) hum hey isn't there an automated script for doing all this in the forums? Shouldn't it be in ubuntuguide?

defkewl
April 10th, 2005, 04:12 PM
Yes, but have you ever installed Windows 98? Before they had agreements with mp3 patent holders? WHen you installed that, you couldn't print, play mp3s, or play dvds either, and even now you can't play dvds or print out of the box.

I know you never said that you could, I'm just trying to put it in perspective. Not everything can work out of the box.

Hey at least my XP could do it better. I could play MP3, DVD and Print ;)

ThePainter
April 10th, 2005, 04:31 PM
Hi,
XP doesnt do a lot from the box.
It will play mp3 but it wont play DVD in WMP without a third party app installed.
It doesnt have tabbed browsing.
It cant protect itself from all the threats out there, and its not as if they are a new concept.
It can only burn unstable data cd's who's data can disappear while burning the next session.
It has the tools to burn audio cd's in WMP but cant do it without a third party installed.
Everytime I try to browse other partitions it always finds a folder that crashes Explorer when I try to enter.

These are things that can be rectified with freeware that some kid has made in his bedroom but Microsoft cant manage it

And now with SP2 there are a load of apps that wont even open.
It doesnt print anything until you install your printer driver, and this goes for scanners too.

So if you want to browse the internet in a dangerous fashion and download EMails that could destroy your OS listen to a song and draw pretty pictures in Paint, and write text messages in Wordpad then XP from the box is for you.
For a fee of course.

kassetra
April 10th, 2005, 05:37 PM
So I try Mepis and that too is Debian/KDE and it to comes on one cd only all the limitations I found in Kubnutu are not in Mepis, it is fully functional and all the plugins and extras that you have to install after the K/Ubuntu install are already there and set up.
So I ask myself why cant Ubuntu do this ?

I see lists of posts on why cant totem do this and why isnt a better media player put in to replace it and I here excuses like "We need to fit it onto one cd" ?
Mepis have a load of good media players as default all setup to play everything without juddery DVD etc.
It also comes with almost twice as many programs as Ubuntu and all on one cd.


1. Mepis may blow Ubuntu "out of the water" for you, but it is also not for everyone, nor did it blow Ubuntu away for me. Mepis was horrible for me to use.

2. Any distribution that is a COMMERCIAL venture CANNOT include mp3 functionality because mp3 is NOT licensed for Linux; same goes for many, many other media formats. If a commercial product were to include these items by default they open themselves up to lawsuits.

3. It's not that Ubuntu can't *jam-pack* a bunch of apps onto the cd; they chose NOT TO.

Why? It's very simple - every distro out there packs as many apps etc. as they can into their distro in an attempt to be all things to all people. Ubuntu has a single purpose - a solid desktop package; so they choose *one* app to do a single job, which makes sense.

Why confuse users with *5* separate music-playing applications? You can only play one file at a time and actually listen to it, so what's the point of so many similar apps? Why do you need a "load of good media apps" ... are you watching three different movies in three different players while listening to two different mp3s? As to why they can't come without having to load up the "juddery DVD" later, see #2.

As to why they don't choose a "better media player" - have you ever thought that they chose one that fit their goals and ideals of a good, solid desktop? Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean it is not a good application. Mind you, I don't use the music player Ubuntu came with - but I uninstalled it and installed one I liked.

4. The *extras* you are talking about are either extra media codecs or newer versions of applications. See #2 regarding media codecs. And newer versions of applications - that cannot be helped by *any* distribution that makes a release.

In short - it would appear that Ubuntu is not for you, but that you have found a distro that is. Congratulations. Simply by reading the Ubuntu site, or even doing a search here you would have found the answers to the questions of why Ubuntu doesn't do this or that.

Posting to the forums saying why "Ubuntu is not fully functional" for you, and why another distro "Blows it out of the water" will not solve any the issues you have surrounding using Ubuntu.

Brunellus
April 10th, 2005, 06:19 PM
Yes, but have you ever installed Windows 98? Before they had agreements with mp3 patent holders? WHen you installed that, you couldn't print, play mp3s, or play dvds either, and even now you can't play dvds or print out of the box.

I know you never said that you could, I'm just trying to put it in perspective. Not everything can work out of the box.

I don't know anybody who has ever installed windows--they have always gotten it OEM pre-installed on their computers. Therefore, any arguments about the completeness or otherwise of Windows (any version) will be totally lost on most Windows users--they had computers that worked out of the box with all the wonderful things that Microsoft and their hardware manufacturer told them would run.

End-users don't care about licensing issues--they do want to carry over their mp3s and watch their DVDs, and do any number of things besides.

I love ubuntu to bits, but it will continue to stumble along with all other non-commercial Linux distributions because end-users will be presented with a pretty environment that is utterly incompatible with their mp3s and DVDs. I myself was annoyed when I tried to play some old mp3s, and it was only my patience and willingness to root around and read the Restricted-Formats wikipage that got me up and running. Most newbies won't even make that effort--they'll just flee to whichever solution makes it work for them at the lowest imagined cost.

What's that? Microsoft costs money, you say? Sure. But most of my friends would rather pay money down than have to learn how to configure anything themselves. Heck, I don't much like doing it myself. The word will get out-- "Oh, yeah, Linux. It won't play your mp3s, so unless you're a hacker, forget it!"

I love ubuntu and gnu/linux in general--don't get me wrong. But unless the whole world flops over to .ogg sometime soon (not bloody likely...ogg doesn't have DRM!), the 'crippled media' (or free media only, if you like) policy is not going to win any newbies. Ubuntu will probably gain a lot of users from other linux distributions (take me, for instance) but will continue to struggle to draw Microsoft switchers.

kassetra
April 10th, 2005, 06:28 PM
I love ubuntu to bits, but it will continue to stumble along with all other non-commercial Linux distributions because end-users will be presented with a pretty environment that is utterly incompatible with their mp3s and DVDs.

But unless the whole world flops over to .ogg sometime soon (not bloody likely...ogg doesn't have DRM!), the 'crippled media' (or free media only, if you like) policy is not going to win any newbies. Ubuntu will probably gain a lot of users from other linux distributions (take me, for instance) but will continue to struggle to draw Microsoft switchers.


Please remember that distributions, especially Commercial ones, are doing the best they can in a field dominated by an industry that does not want competition. DVD playback in Linux is *illegal,* mp3 playback in Linux is *illegal.* You cannot expect large distributions to distribute work which they know violates the current laws - EVEN IF that is what prevents Linux from being accepted by mainstream computer users.

When the laws are changed so that it is no longer illegal to play dvds and mp3s in Linux, you can guarantee that all commercial distributions will include this functionality.

az
April 10th, 2005, 07:30 PM
"I love ubuntu and gnu/linux in general--don't get me wrong. But unless the whole world flops over to .ogg sometime soon (not bloody likely...ogg doesn't have DRM!), the 'crippled media' (or free media only, if you like) policy is not going to win any newbies. Ubuntu will probably gain a lot of users from other linux distributions (take me, for instance) but will continue to struggle to draw Microsoft switchers"

The point is that it is free and open source software. Yes, actually many end users care more about the freedom they get by running FOSS than by running proprietairy apps.

To bring this back to Mepis, that is a distribution specialised in media things. If you do not care about such things, and would rather watch TV on your TV, Mepis is a waste of my time. It also carries proprietary apps (as far as I know) that I would want to avoid.

That is my choice. You do not have to have the same beliefs in free software to benefit from it.

I am happy that you like Mepis. If you would like Ubuntu to become more like Mepis (prehaps by making a custom derivative or something) by all means, file bug reports and become a part of the comunity so that you can sway the future direction of Ubuntu. Package some of your favorite media applications and submit them to the MOTU team. If they are competently built and meet licencing requirements, they will be included into Ubuntu.

Just do not come here to complain. That is a waste of your energy.


"It also comes with almost twice as many programs as Ubuntu and all on one cd."

the ubuntu cd contains a number of windows FOSS for distribution to people who do not want to install linux to benefit from it. Mepis does not do that, I think.



"This is only my opinion but Why struggle with Ubuntu when Mepis blows it away without trying ?"

I have yet to struggle with Ubuntu.

TravisNewman
April 10th, 2005, 08:04 PM
Your eloquence serves the community well once again, azz.

gflores
April 10th, 2005, 08:26 PM
This thread has sparked interest for Mepis for me. Is it free? I couldn't find a free download on their website. Also, is there a Live-CD of it?

One thing that really helped my Ubuntu experience is the script I downloaded that installs win32 codecs, Firefox plugins, dvd playback, etc. However, most users probably won't enter the forums.

Perhaps Ubuntu can make this better... Maybe when a user tries to play a mp3 file, a dialog will come up saying if you would like to install software to enable this functionality (with warnings about patents, etc) and if they click yes, it'll automatically install it. Same could be done when trying to play a DVD. What do you guys think?

Leif
April 10th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Your eloquence serves the community well once again, azz.

When I read that for some reason I heard it as "You have served the Empire well once again, azz", with the Emperor's voice :twisted: Too much Star Wars, not enough work !

ThePainter
April 10th, 2005, 09:37 PM
Hi,
Gflores:
Yes its free.
Just download "Simply Mepis 3.3"
It is a live cd so just boot onto it and your mepis is there, There is a tool on the desktop that installs it onto your HD from within the Live OS if you like it.
Two in one !
What I did when I needed something that I had in Ubuntu was to use the Ubuntu guide to find ways of installing and setting stuff up that wasnt on Mepis because it uses Synaptic and is Debian so most things are similar once you enable all the repo's from within Synaptic.
But apart from a few codecs there wasnt much I needed to install apart from Blender and yafray.
Adobe, flash, java, real, nvidia etc. are already their.
They have Xine installed along with a few other Media players but I took them all out and put Kaffeine in which is Xine with a better gui (imo).

The thing is a lot of the apps I am using are the same as I was using in Ubuntu only they work better ?
like I mensioned I found DVD playback a bit choppy in Ubuntu but it is perfect in Mepis.
I couldnt open Photos from my camera for edit or preview in Ubuntu until they had been opened and resaved in PSP7 via crossover office, they open fine in Mepis.
I had a lot of bother transfering files to my website in Ubuntu (I have discussed it on this forum many times without fixes) I had to transfer pics in Gftp and html files with Nautilus otherwise they became corrupted.
Transfered fine in Mepis with any app capable of transfer.
These problems were in Warty and also in Hoary.

There are a few problems in Mepis that dont bother like I couldnt get Crossover office or wine to work with the apps I had used in Ubuntu but because of other apps that work in Mepis that didnt work in Ubuntu I didnt need them after all.
And like Hoary you cant edit the menu and it doesnt update when stuff is uninstalled.
(There seems to be a big problem with menus lately in Gnome and KDE ?)
Also it had a strange way of auto mounting partitions in /mnt but I edited the fstab as in the Ubuntuguide and it works jsut like Uuntu now.
and it uses su instead of sudo.

So it isnt perfect !

I think it is good for people to try new things and Mepis is good in some areas and it is a case of seeing if it suits you hence the thread name.
I was saddened becasue I liked Warty and was looking forward to Hoary but in my opinion it has taken a step back and things that worked well have been spoilt.
I am tempted to try Kubuntu out of curiosity just to see if the problems I found were with Gnome and might be fixed in KDE but I have a sneaky feeling they are bugs in the kernel.

Can someone tell me can I upgrade warty into Kubuntu via apt-get or is it a seperate distro ?

Ive got nothing against Ubuntu and may return to it in the future becasue I like the community and that is why I still come here and share my art in the art board but I prefer a usable OS and at the moment Mepis is more usable to me than Ubuntu.

kassetra
April 10th, 2005, 09:53 PM
I was saddened becasue I liked Warty and was looking forward to Hoary but in my opinion it has taken a step back and things that worked well have been spoilt.
I am tempted to try Kubuntu out of curiosity just to see if the problems I found were with Gnome and might be fixed in KDE but I have a sneaky feeling they are bugs in the kernel.

but I prefer a usable OS and at the moment Mepis is more usable to me than Ubuntu.

1. I have never had any of the problems you have mentioned in Warty. Not a single one. Maybe it's your camera?
2. If everything runs better for you in Mepis, great. But it is not the fault of the Kernel if things you wanted to do did not work for you.
3. As in usable OS - you mean one that does not have any issues for you to use personally, because I find Mepis completely unusable.

TravisNewman
April 10th, 2005, 10:00 PM
ThePainter-- I'm not saying you're WRONG about anything that you've said. You're speaking from your personal experience, and you have every right to do so. But to quote azz:
" Just do not come here to complain. That is a waste of your energy."

You've already complained about everything in this last post somewhere else. In a reply to gflores, you took the opportunity to explain some things about Mepis, but you also used that as another place to trash Ubuntu. Have you filed any bug reports? Have you placed your questions on these issues in the appropriate forum sections to try to get help, instead of lumping your problems together in the off-topic forum while complaining about the distribution? It's hard to get help when you lump all your issues together, since the thread will quickly take one road or the other, but rarely will all your questions get answered-- and it's doubly hard to get help when you're bashing the distro you're trying to get help with.

az
April 10th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Mepis is not free. It costs money. Is is not "libre" either since it contains proprietary stuff.
The cvs version can be downloded for free.

Sound is less choppy in Mepis because is uses lowlatency and preemptive patches. The 2.6 Ubuntu kernel only has preempting. The Mepis kernel is an older 2.4 kernel.

Yes, you can upgrade to Kubuntu Hoary from Warty.

There is a code of conduct regarding ubuntulinux and the forums. It prohibits repetitive arguments.

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct

Please continue to discuss things here, but repeating the same stuff over and over is not respectful to the community. Thank you.

Brunellus
April 11th, 2005, 12:26 AM
The point is that it is free and open source software. Yes, actually many end users care more about the freedom they get by running FOSS than by running proprietairy apps.

Who does, other than the people already in the FOSS movement?

My friends have watched me migrate to Linux, and have been intrigued not because of the freedom that it might afford them, but because of the practical benefits it offers: safety, stability, customization, etc. Freedom is a secondary consideration for them.

Arguments over the question of libre versus gratis are as relevant to them as arguments over whether or not the Persons of the Holy Trinity are composed of a single matter, or of separate, but similar matters.

I myself have come to enjoy the benefits of freedom. Personally, I don't encode in .mp3 at all-- just .ogg. But I have to deal with a larger world that does use 'patent-encumbered' technology. What would you want me to do--ignore it altogether? That's a step I'm just not ready to take--sorry. I'm not willing to surrender interoperability completely.

If that doesn't make me one of the cool kids, well, too bad. I can't and won't wait for the whole rest of the world to come around to my OS of choice, so I'm willing to meet them halfway.

az
April 11th, 2005, 01:28 AM
"If that doesn't make me one of the cool kids, well, too bad. I can't and won't wait for the whole rest of the world to come around to my OS of choice, so I'm willing to meet them halfway."

Whatever floats your boat. I am happy that linux works for you. In my case, I would rather do without some features and run a free system than run a proprietary system But that is a personal choice - just like how you raise your kids. No one should tell you how it has to be done. With Ubuntu, though, I do not have to chose, it is free and it all works.


Do not mock those that have a respect for their freedom. In this case, the tangible example is of a car. I want to own a car which has a hood that I can open. I may not be the world's best mechanic, but at least I can poke around. I also have the choice of what garage I may use.
The flipside of htis analagy is owning a car with the hood welded shut. Only the manufacturer knows what is under there and can access it. Would you chose to buy such a car?


"Who does, other than the people already in the FOSS movement?"

I do not understand what you mean. There are many people who are not developers who chose to only use GPL software.
Again, if you are going to argue that you do nt feel the same way, I do not care. I am not telling you what software to use. It just happens to be a big feature of Ubuntu, Debian and Gnu/Linux.


"But I have to deal with a larger world that does use 'patent-encumbered' technology. What would you want me to do--ignore it altogether"

Some would only puchase ogg-aware mp3 players, for example. If this is a big enough selling point, more manufacturers will distribute them. Again, do what you want... You asked.

KiwiNZ
April 11th, 2005, 01:37 AM
This thread seems counter productive to me . My mouse has hovered over the padlock a few times now with this one .

TravisNewman
April 11th, 2005, 01:42 AM
I'll help your hand, KiwiNZ.

This has moved past productive and into 2 or 3 separate arguments that are going nowhere