PDA

View Full Version : Current concept/conventions of 'window management' = UNPRODUCTIVE?



robin.com.au
September 6th, 2006, 10:15 PM
Greetings,

SUMMARY
I want everyone including developers, GNOME, KDE, XFCE, and other major players to take notice of our currently limited, inefficient, unproductive, window management. A more innovative, efficient and productive way of managing windows is needed/wanted!!

(I'm not talking about mac osx expose)

But my goal is NOT to say "tiled window management is almighty and should immediately replace conventional window managers!" But our current window managers need improvement. The point of this thread is NOT to make you hate your current window managers but rather, question its usability.

THE PROBLEM
Currently, our way of working with one fully maximised window and the practice of alt+tabbing is not the most efficient way of working with more than 1 application. It is also a pain and time consuming to manually resize and move windows with the mouse so that you can see and work with 2 or more apps at the same time. After all the manual resizing, your window probably does not make full use of your monitor screen.

THE SOLUTION

Tiling/Splitting Windows
Once you know how ion3 works to eliminate the above problem, example on post #8 and http://www.robin.com.au/swf/ion3.swf . it is a drastically(or is it?) different from how our current window manager works. Therefore simply throwing in the tab/tiling concept into GNOME, KDE or XFCE could be difficult. So I thought maybe just a simple function for just a push of a button, and all windows are resized side by side, taking up as much of the screen as possible, would be a good start.

COMMON MISCONCEPTION:
Your window MUST be tiled. Not true. You can have 10 windows opened in 1 workspace but only 2 are active/visible and tiled. Those other 8 inactive windows are represented as tabs and work similar to window list. Please look at http://www.robin.com.au/swf/ion3.swf to see how ion3 works.

Docking Windows
Other than the 'tiling' concept, another one is 'docking' which was brought up by user 'ago'in post #43 in page 5 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=252315&page=5), please read about it there. The idea is inspired by http://www.snakesoft.net/wxifm/ and http://sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php?group_id=110642&ssid=24456 . It is similar to tiling but can co-exist with our classic floating windows. It is still just an idea but should be implemented!

[Insert more ideas/solutions here]

There must be better ways for our window managers to be more efficient and productive. Start innovating!

Screenshots of my space efficient ion3 workspace
http://www.robin.com.au/image/ion3-workspace2.png
http://www.robin.com.au/image/ion3-gimp.png
In contrast to http://www.robin.com.au/image/messy-metacity.png
I wanted to edit the 2 ion3 pics above, so I opened the pics with GIMP, and messy-metacity.png was the result. I had a slight stroke.

Flash presentation of how ion3 works
http://www.robin.com.au/swf/ion3.swf

Please follow the link below to read about the ion3 author's view on todays window management and look at linux.com's guide to using ion3 and understand how it works

some of the problems with present-day graphical user interfaces (http://www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/) from ion3 site

Ion, the efficient window manager (http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/06/19/1634225) from linux.com/newsforge

Symphony OS with Mezzo desktop (http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/07/24/164213) interesting desktop environment that tries to innovate

Detail below
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now im not sure if anyone made a big deal out of this already, but if not it should be something for users/developers to really think about. This issue literally kept me up one night after an accidental afternoon nap which turns to a complete slumber.

Anyway

After extensive use of ion3 (http://www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/), a tiling/tab oriented window manager, going back to the old all too common conventional window manager is a slight hindrance.

The common window manager im talking about is the one which you see on Micros&%t Winblows, OSX and XFCE/Gnome/KDE. Where windows partially overlap windows. It's what happens to the window managers we use today. Why do we want to have windows partially/fully blocking windows with information we want to see? Causing extensive switching between mouse and keyboard to drag those windows out of the way of the window we want to reference from.

Your hand will have to leave the keyboard to find the mouse to reposition the windows to prevent overlapping, resizing the top bottom left right side. Then when you are happy, your hand will have to find your way back to your keyboard and try to remember what you were typing again. This really breaks the workflow.

Or you use alt+tab, but it is merely a temporary solution, it does not reposition the windows to prevent overlapping.

Should maximised windows be encouraged?
Yes it makes use of all your screen space. A good thing.

What if you want to reference from another window?
You alt+tab

What if you have many programs opened? and the 1st alt+tab does not get you to the window you want?
You keep alt+tabbing until you do

What if you alt+tabbed too much and went pass the app you want?
Aha! alt+shift+tab lets you go backwards! Or you keep alt+tabbing until you finally get it.

How many keyboard presses does that take?
Quite a bit

It is also about 'certainty'. When you press alt+tab, are you 100% certain that the 1st time you press alt+tab, you will go to the window that you want to go to? Do you know exactly which window will be focused when alt+tab is pressed?
Not really, a mini window comes up in the middle of the screen with icons. You then work out what those icons represent and what order they are in, then select the window you want.

After growing older and losing brain cells, I find that it requires much more thinking than required to navigate around our messy, disorganised, ubiquitous windows.

That is why I find ion3 really efficient. Windows are tiled next to each other or tabbed. No window overlapping occurs. All apps are showing contents to its fullest while utilising full screen space. Please see post #8 for example of how I use ion3. I am not talking about the OSX expose effect.

Applications are trying to be tab and pane/tile based nowadays. See post #7

But im not here to promote ion3. All ion3 users know it's great.

This concept of tiling windows is great but not much attention is drawn to it, there's hardly any development done to them or it's extremely slow. Ion3 is like 2-3 years old. System tray icons are a problem, some don't show up. Some apps may not run well on it. The panel and tabs sure are dull, but is not a problem cos im gettin job done on my comp swiftly.

But currently I am going everywhere 'preaching' the ways of linux and converting people, and I attract them with AIGLX or XGL with Compiz, and it sure is effective! But i have to give up tiled windowing.

This concept of tiled windowing is really powerful and further active development should be done on it. Why isn't this happening? I guess currently the 2 year old ion3 (apparently it is still being worked on) is simply good enough for me and other users but why should it be limited to just us??

It needs a bit more eye candy to get more people's attention i think.

My main point here is that, currently overlapping windows are not the best way for productivity and efficiency. People should think about a better way. Ion3 has really presented something unique but still lacks support for some apps and also lacks eye candy. The author of ion3 argues that ion3 should not be eye candy, u can read about it in his FAQ in his site (http://www.modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/), there are valid points like, it is simply pointless and not necessary for anti-aliased fonts and pretty borders and such. VERY TRUE! Just look at compiz (the fancy opengl 3D window manager), BEAUTIFUL, it is the reason why it hold me back from buying a Macbook after I had my mind set on paying high price for the OSX (speaking of OSX, i like how the app icons represent the taskbar, systembar and launchbar, may talk about this sometime, and although the windows still overlaps, the way alt+tab works is different and better). Compiz is beautiful, but does it improve desktop navigation? Does it allow better workflow? Does the expose plugin make switching windows easier? Maybe, but you still have to scour through those bunch of windows to find the app that you want, and everything goes back to normal and the window position/size remain unaffected. Are the compiz plugins pointless?? Mostly, but it sure make great 1st impressions to my Ubuntu convertees.

My goal is for people to recognize linux, and the best way to get their attention is seducing their eyes.

A more feasible approach seems to be docking windows which was brought up by user 'ago' starting from post #43 in page 5 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=252315&page=5) onwards. Please read it up. It seems like the best way so far for our tiled windows to co-exist with classic floating windows.

So...are my points valid? If so, please tell people about it. I (we?) need better window managers. Hopefully developers take these thoughts into consideration and put more thought into creating a more innovative window manager.

Thank you for reading,
Robin

aysiu
September 6th, 2006, 10:30 PM
Won't tiling all the windows make the text in those windows too hard to see (I'm thinking of Expose in Mac OS X)?

skymt
September 6th, 2006, 10:35 PM
Tiled windowing was tried and found lacking. The Xerox Star, for example, used tiled window management. Also, Microsoft Windows was tiled until version 2. Check out this Ars article (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/gui.ars/1) for more examples.

tminuszero
September 6th, 2006, 10:35 PM
I'm not sure how this will make me more effective, but it seems interesting. I have dual screens with 4 desktops, and I know how to use keyboard shortcuts to get most things done without touching a mouse. So how does ion3 make you more productive? Is it mainly for people who stay in a shell all day? How does it (or could it) help conventional users who browse the web, check email, edit photos, etc?

aysiu
September 6th, 2006, 10:46 PM
Why do we want to have windows partially/fully blocking windows with information we want to see? Sometimes, we care only about what's going on in the front and being able to switch quickly (Alt-Tab) to what's in the back. We might not have to see both at once.
Causing extensive switching between mouse and keyboard to drag those windows out of the way of the window we want to reference from. The only solution I know to this is getting a bigger (or dual-screen) monitor. If no window is blocking any other window, then you either have to have a lot of screen space or really fine print and a good pair of glasses!

robin.com.au
September 7th, 2006, 09:41 AM
sorry i took so long to reply

the mac 'expose' scales everything in the window smaller which you cant read stuff properly. im just talkin about normal window resizing, but all windows tiled side by side and making full use of the whole monitor screen.

not many people can afford such huge monitor screen.

i actually went off track here,focusing too much about 'tiling'.
i actually want to show that our windowing that we see in metacity kwin and all that, are not very space efficient and requires too much moving of the window if you were to work on 2 or 3 apps at the same time.

eg. reading an article on firefox, while chatting about it with a friend on gaim, while emailing some pics and stuff about that article with evolution.

in that situation i dont want to be alt+tabbing all the time. but that is how our workflow is nowadays (maximise everything, working on one app at a time)

since you work with windows behind windows, u cant really see wat program is behind it and you have to alt tab and scroll and scroll until u get to that app.

if things were tiled up, you already know that 'evolution' is on the left tile, and 'firefox' is on the right, and maybe the right tile is horizontally split to hav the terminal or 'gaim' at the bottom and firefox on top. but of course u are able to maximise any of the app if need be.

anyway, you can CLEARLY see where those apps are whereas alt tabbing makes u look at a new window with icons for u to scroll across til your find your app.

it's not much of a speed difference, but i think it adds up and eases your mind a bit if you know exactly where your apps are.

i hope you guys/gals know what im getting at. maybe ill make a flash presentation one day. i really want people to understand our current concept of windows overlapping windows is not the best way.

maybe tiling is NOT the best way either, so people should rethink about how windows should work more productively.

as i said, wat i really want to prove is that currently OUR WINDOW MANAGERS ARE INEFFICIENT!

this article got me interested in ion3 and its tiling ability http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/06/19/1634225

robin.com.au
September 7th, 2006, 09:58 AM
damn theres actually so much i want to say about this matter. i'll have to create pages about it on my site and format it properly for easier navigation and reading.

you know apps like gvim, konqueror, firefox, etc. have tabbing functionality. they all allow you to have right pane/tile, left pane (maybe not firefox). a yesterday read from linux.com about the power of konqueror and people's comment triggered me to write about this. the article http://internet.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/08/29/1958255&from=rss talks about how konqueror has great potentials and about how its right pane and left pane interface can be so useful. the left pane can have a web page running while the right pane is your local filesystem, and other programs could integrate with these panes.

then one guy commented that konqueror is being too much of a window manager rather than an application, making kwin useless. they should might as well allow the window manager to do all that konqueror could do, then he/she mentioned ion3.

when i talk about these tiling window managers, i talk about these tabbings, panes, tiles. NOT just mac expose kinda thing.

i hope you all find this a bit intriguing
thank you for your attention

robin.com.au
September 7th, 2006, 09:59 AM
this how i make my desktop efficient with ion3
the default configuration of ion3 is not to my liking but it's customisability allow me to navigate the way i want it, the way i see most efficient to my workflow

u start ion3, u see a black boring screen, with a text-based panel at the bottom.

i press alt+tilde(left of 1), it opens a run dialog, it opens watever program i want, lets say, 'opera' browser.

opera takes the whole screen.
i wish to read an article on it while chatting on gaim

i press alt+tilde and run 'gaim'
gaim takes the whole screen, opera is no longer seen

but there are tabs on top, opera on the left tab, and gaim on the right tab
gaim is the current focus

i press alt+w, focuses left tab (opera)
i press alt+r, focuses right tab (gaim)

i press alt+p, for 'split' but nothing happen yet, then i press 'right', and gaim is now split to the right. now i can see opera on the left and gaim on the right. 50% / 50% width on both

alt+w and alt+r cannot be used to switch between opera and gaim anymore. because after a 'split' u must vizualize the 2 splitted apps as separate 'workarea' now

now i use alt+s focus left pane(to opera) and alt+f to focus right pane(to gaim)
i could also use alt+e and alt+d as up and down respectively but i cant now (theres no apps up or down). NOTICE the letters "e d s f" forms like your arrow keys? and so the "w r" moves between left and right tabs 'within a workarea'

anyway

right pane is gaim right? it is now focused. i reluctantly use the mouse to try to message a buddy, then my 'buddy message window' opens but replaces gaim. so now left pane is opera and right pane is 'message window' but on the right pane has 2 tabs, gaim labeled on the left, 'message window' labeled on the right'.

so i use alt+w to focus tab on the left(gaim). then alt+r to right, back to message window.

then i press alt+p to split (again nothing happen yet) then 'down' and now the message window is now on the bottom half of the right pane while gaim is on the top half of the right pane.

u can now use alt+e and alt+d to move up and down respectively between your top right and bottom right pane.

pressing alt+enter will maximise the focused window.
pressing alt+enter again will put it back to normal

pressing alt+shift+p will unsplit, eg. unsplitting the message window will form one big right pane again with gaim and message window as tabs.

windows can be sent to different panes just like ctrl+c for copy or ctrl+v for pasting the window, maybe u want to use alt+c and alt+v instead for less confusion.

plus there r 'workspaces' which u can create with alt+f9 or something
alt+1 (one) switches to workspace 1 and alt+3 goes to workspace 2, etc.

u can split however much you want, vertically or horizontally

f2 opens terminal

shortcuts can be mapped to whatever the hell you want

hopefully you see how i work on my computer during my ion3 days, i use a dvorak keyboard so my true shortcuts are different from above but pretty much the same anyway

can anyone c the power yet??? do u still want a flash presentation? maybe one day, hopefully soon, im not being sarcastic, ill do it if it makes you all see

remember this is not about ion3 almightiness, this is about making better window managers for the future

QuinnStorm
September 7th, 2006, 01:15 PM
I used to use ion3...then I found compiz.

robin.com.au
September 7th, 2006, 01:22 PM
greetings quinn,

how was your experience with ion3? any comments you would like to share on my thread? since you are the one behind compiz? actually im not sure how to relate you with compiz? compiz maintainer? compiz developer?

anyway comments from you would be nice

robin

robin.com.au
September 7th, 2006, 05:50 PM
Some feedback please. I would like to keep this thread a bit more alive. Or is it nonsense that I've written and not worth responding to?

Or does my noob status put you off? I've been using Ubuntu for more than a year, and learnt so much about linux and just love the mass variety of apps to try out and its customizabilty. My computers are micros**t free. running ubuntu solely on 3 computers including this dell inspiron 6400 notebook that im using full time. Just wanna show that im not really a noob and have great experience with xfce,gnome,kde,ion3,fluxbox,windowmaker,wmii,ratpo ison,maybe more and many applications. Just wanna share my experience and give you all something to think about.

I've always looked in this forum for help and usually find answers and with help from google as well, there was no need for me to post anything on any forums.

It's just that theres nothing much happening with windows managers at the moment, except compiz. Not much innovation is really happening and I just couldnt stay quiet any longer and had to voice this matter out. This is the 1st time i write so much on a forum. Im normally real private. You'll never find me in any forum. I'll give this one an exception though.

More comments please.

Maybe i put this under the wrong category. Where else is suitable?

aysiu
September 7th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Most people probably think you should use whatever interface works best for you, and maybe people are fine with the current model--I know I am. Alt-Tabbing is not a pain for me at all, and I have no reason to see what's behind my current window. I also have a window list at the bottom of my screen. The window list tells me what windows I have open.

You may have, in fact, posted in the wrong forum--this is probably more appropriate in the Ubuntu Cafe than Desktop Support. I'll report it.

encompass
September 7th, 2006, 06:09 PM
Noticed your article so I am posting on the original post...
I understand tiled environments. I personally hare move back and forth from my keyboard to the mouse and learn as much as I can to get away from that habit. But at the same time... having a more natural learning curve to make an evironment easier to work with it also important. We all no VI and Emacs are powerful. But how long does it take to learn every feature. When gedit works more naturally with people now.
I lack MacSlow's idea of LowFat, have you heard of it?
:-k

Belyel
September 7th, 2006, 07:05 PM
I guess my perspective is that it isn't a big deal to me to have to use alt+tab to switch apps. I use compiz, so it's even easier. I just hit F12, or move my mouse into a corner of the screen, to bring up all my open apps tiled across the screen (scaled, but live views) then click on whichever one I wish to use. Both my computers running ubuntu have widescreen displays, so I can easily have, say, Firefox and Gaim open, or Firefox and OpenOffice.org, or basically any two applications side by side. I have never found occasion where I needed more than two apps side by side long-term, so it's not inconvenient to me to move and resize them. While I see your point that it could be convenient for people who don't want to be troubled with either alt+tab or compiz, I'm not sure it would be worth putting into the desktop managers (I don't know how hard it would actually be, I'm assuming a minor to moderate effort), especially since there is already a program to provide the functionality you desire.

PS: I don't know about other readers here, but I find it very difficult to wade through posts written in all lowercase.

aysiu
September 7th, 2006, 07:11 PM
PS: I don't know about other readers here, but I find it very difficult to wade through posts written in all lowercase. Me, too... but all-uppercase is worse.

aeon
September 7th, 2006, 08:02 PM
Finding the right windowmanager/desktop environment is pretty similar to finding a distro that works for you, you just have to try them out and see what works best for you.. I've only tried a few WM:s/DE:s but I've found things that I like and things that I don't, fluxbox and e17 being the better ones IMHO.. Currently I've settled for gnome & compiz, as it gives me easy access to the things i need without being too bloated.

As for alt+tab/F12/whatever, it's all a matter of what you are acustomed to. I currently have a dual-screen setup with 6 virtual desktops and I find that switching between them using keyboard shortcuts is just as easy as having all my windows tabbed (ico3 style), since most of my desktops (5/6) often have atleast 3 or 4 programs running.

For me getting a second screen is what made the most difference, and having virtual desktops helps a lot too, bot there's never too much desktop space..

Maby a bit off topic, but it's my 2 cents

tminuszero
September 7th, 2006, 10:23 PM
Robin, I've tried to respond, but every time I've tried to respond to you today has been met with a Server Timout!

I think the problem with excitement about this idea is three-fold. First, it's not a simple point and click install to get working, and when it does work, as you've said, some programs just don't work.

Second, most people are best served by a standard desktop, and they are not looking for "better" or "more efficient," but "prettier" and "working." Most people here don't know what the devil you're talking about, nor should they be expected to :)

Third, all of the descriptions in the world cannot describe how the interface works or feels. Someone working on Ion (or a fan like you) should look into making a simple screencast to show the desktop in action. The screenshots on their project site look overwhelming and almost pre-alpha, quite frankly. Unless you're a superuser. Do you think you could put together a screencast using Wink (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/) or ffmpeg? I'd love to see it in action, but I just don't want to take the time.

lapsey
September 7th, 2006, 10:42 PM
compiz works much better than any fancy key combos because it is visual. scrolling between programs visually and hitting F12 to select from a tiling of all windows works better than having to remember modifiers.

prizrak
September 7th, 2006, 11:08 PM
I think the OP means something similar to a button in Windows where it will tile all the open ones on the screen. It actually is a useful function on a large enough monitor when you need to compare two or more Windows.

encompass
September 8th, 2006, 06:36 AM
compiz works much better than any fancy key combos because it is visual. scrolling between programs visually and hitting F12 to select from a tiling of all windows works better than having to remember modifiers.

One of the biggest things that will slow someone down is using the mouse. I avoid it as much as possible and find my self going faster everyday. So many people will fill out a form online using tab and then what... they move there hand away from the keyboard and aim for the ok button to submit the form. How smart is that.

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 07:58 AM
Noticed your article so I am posting on
I lack MacSlow's idea of LowFat, have you heard of it?
:-k
No I have not. Please explain.


I guess my perspective is that it isn't a big deal to me....Both my computers running ubuntu have widescreen displays...I have never found occasion where I needed more than two apps side by side long-term, so it's not inconvenient to me to move and resize them. While I see your point that it could be convenient for people who don't want to be troubled with either alt+tab or compiz, I'm not sure it would be worth putting into the desktop managers...especially since there is already a program to provide the functionality you desire.

PS: I don't know about other readers here, but I find it very difficult to wade through posts written in all lowercase.

I apologise about the lowercase. I wanted to type fast. I may go about adding Uppercase.

I can't afford widescreen or multiple monitors for one computer. I do not need to, because using ion3 can be like using 2 monitor on 1 monitor. But of course it's still bigger and better if you can afford multiple monitors.

I guess it isn't really a big deal, but I guess its still 'a deal'. Sometimes little things just makes big difference. Take Amarok, theres this function where u can select a track and choose 'stop after playing'. I dont know about you, but i just love how the KDE guys wud bother implementing that. I dont like to stop music when its halfway playing, so I can use that function, then switch off the monitor and lights then sleep while the song plays until it stops. Instead of waiting til the song ends, then switch everything off. The purpose of a computer is convenience right?? I love it when things can be done faster with less key presses.

I dont use 2 apps all the time, but if I do, I would like to easily just split the screen in half and have the 2 apps work side by side. I also have workspace 1 for fullscreen browsing, and workspace 2 for gaim, gaim message window, amarok, split appropriately. So I switch to workspace 2 if i hav a message from friend.

Desktop managers can keep their normal overlapping windows, but maybe give an option to work with tiled/split windows, or 'aligned' windows. Add those little things to give users more choice and to make me happy. Like how Amarok added 'stop playing after track'. Amarok is still the most fully featured music player no matter how much people try to make a GTK version of it, like listen (weird interface) and exaile (couldn't load m3u). That would be another story.

I guess tile window managers like ion3 already exist and already meets my requirements but it is still not very polished, there is still a lot of development needed and the author of ion3 does not believe in eye candy.

Again, I want people to take notice, so they will realise some of of our current window manager's limitations and innovate on future window managers.

Do you mind if I occasionally use lower case 'I' and not use inverted commas?



You may have, in fact, posted in the wrong forum--this is probably more appropriate in the Ubuntu Cafe than Desktop Support. I'll report it.

Thank you for helping to put this thread in Ubuntu Cafe.



Most people here don't know what the devil you're talking about, nor should they be expected to :)

Third, all of the descriptions in the world cannot describe how the interface works or feels. Someone working on Ion (or a fan like you) should look into making a simple screencast to show the desktop in action...Do you think you could put together a screencast using Wink (http://www.debugmode.com/wink/) or ffmpeg?

I will look into wink and ffmpeg and c wat i can do. Maybe ill make a flash presentation of how it works and make it interactive as well. The file will proabbly be smaller as well but require me to do more work. I'll do it eventually. I don't really want to be promoting ion3 so much, but I guess people will understand better if they can see the contrast between ion3 and normal window managers.


compiz works much better than any fancy key combos because it is visual. scrolling between programs visually and hitting F12 to select from a tiling of all windows works better than having to remember modifiers.

Like encompass says, using the mouse as little as possible is the most efficient.

You can create your own modifier easily remembered by you. Mac OSX is awesome because pretty much everything can be done without the mouse or touchpad but one reason I end up not buying a Mac for OSX is because the keyboard shortcuts are not customizable, or not customizable enough, so you gotta learn the default shortcut. And also Macs are hell expensive.

Visual aid is definitely important. What do you exactly mean by compiz is better because it is 'visual'. Ion3 is visual too. Apps are aligned clearly in columns and rows. And each 'cell' can have more than 1 app, so there are tabs (you know how useful tabs are) to represent apps which your can switch between(flash presentation probably needed). Maybe you can look at post #8 to see if you can understand how ion3 works.

F12-ing on compiz to tile the windows is quite useful. But if your windows were tiled in the 1st place, wouldn't that be better?

encompass
September 8th, 2006, 08:37 AM
Lowfat...
http://macslow.thepimp.net/?page_id=18
A new way to work with data and stored information.

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 10:49 AM
But at the same time... having a more natural learning curve to make an evironment easier to work with it also important. We all no VI and Emacs are powerful. But how long does it take to learn every feature.
:-k
That is true, that is why further development needs to be done to make unique window managers more user-friendly, like making a keybinding GUI for something like ion3, because currently you must edit text files and know a bit of coding to get your customized keybinds in. Not user-friendly. People must take notice and show some interests first. But I guess majority of people are not as passionate as me about advancing the use and efficiency of window managers. I wish I know how to code stuff. Any 'gtk programming guide for dumbos' around to recommend? I doubt I could achieve much anyway.


Lowfat...
http://macslow.thepimp.net/?page_id=18
A new way to work with data and stored information.
I only watched the video,interesting stuff, will work great with pictures, will have to see how it would deal with files/folders and stuff

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 11:05 AM
Space efficiency.

When working with 1 windows, that window should take the whole screen.

When working with 2 windows, 1 window should take 50% of the screen and 50% for the other window. Or 75% and 25%, up to you.

Isn't that the most efficient way of managing windows and using your screen to the fullest?

Can our current window manager do that? Yes
But can it do it quickly with as little keypress as possible (little as in 1 or 2 keypresses) and without the mouse? No

encompass
September 8th, 2006, 12:32 PM
Space efficiency.
Can our current window manager do that? Yes
But can it do it quickly with as little keypress as possible (little as in 1 or 2 keypresses) and without the mouse? No
I greatly agree... how can we push that to gnome then... I would love to see those features.
I currently use windowmaker for most of my desktop use and would like to see it there. But development is VERY slow there.

jnoreiko
September 8th, 2006, 01:04 PM
Space efficiency.

When working with 1 windows, that window should take the whole screen.

When working with 2 windows, 1 window should take 50% of the screen and 50% for the other window. Or 75% and 25%, up to you.

Isn't that the most efficient way of managing windows and using your screen to the fullest?

I don't think that's a good idea at all.
The sizes of my windows simply don't match to the size of my screen. Take any window I'm using and change it to exactly 50% of the screen, and it's not usable at all -- firefox, a card game, iTunes or rhythmbox -- it's the contents of the window that dictate the best size, not the screen.

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 01:16 PM
I greatly agree... how can we push that to gnome then... I would love to see those features.
I currently use windowmaker for most of my desktop use and would like to see it there. But development is VERY slow there.

Windowmaker did catch my attention at one point, I like how the 'square blocks' (what do you call it?) work, in place of the conventional taskbar/window list and panels. But those blocks were pretty huge, and if it's set smaller, the icon would be cut off I think.

Anyway, how can we push this to gnome? I don't know, I guess for starters, I created this thread and hopefully people read it, do developers frequent this forum? Maybe I should post this on the xfce, KDE, gnome forums. I did post about it in compiz.net, but it was just a link. Quinnstorm (a compiz-related developer?) posted on this thread but she only said like 4 words, I wanted more comments from her.

If any desktop environment would adopt such a window manager, I would go straight for it. Actually I would like Compiz to adopt such a feature, since i use it fulltime.

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 02:07 PM
I don't think that's a good idea at all.
The sizes of my windows simply don't match to the size of my screen. Take any window I'm using and change it to exactly 50% of the screen, and it's not usable at all -- firefox, a card game, iTunes or rhythmbox -- it's the contents of the window that dictate the best size, not the screen.

The contents of the window should NOT dictate the best size, YOU should dictate the best size. You should have control.

As said, the sizes of the windows are adjustable. Read post #8 in page 1 and see if you can get it. If you intend to have 10 apps opened, having them all split is definitely unusable, I say 3-4 apps on each workspace should be the limit, but of course depends on your monitor and resolution size.

Let's say you intend to create a workspace with 2 rows 2 columns (=4 cells).
You intend to open 10 apps.
You can have 3 apps opened on each cell. One 'cell' will have 4 apps of course. So we got 10 apps opened right? Good.
Obviously only 4 apps can be shown at the same time since theres 4 cells.
Each 'cell' has tabs, which represents the apps opened for that cell.
So 3 cells have 3 tabs each, except one which has 4 tabs.
Select any of the tab, and that app will show on that particular cell.
This is how a tiled window manager works.


I guess I really have to make a video of how ion3 works. Looking up screencasting apps now. Which is the easiest to install and quickly usable? Just installed Istanbul, if it doesnt work,is there anything else?

jnoreiko
September 8th, 2006, 02:26 PM
The contents of the window should NOT dictate the best size, YOU should dictate the best size. You should have control.

But you're passing control to my desktop resolution (or fractions of it). That's even less suitable than, say, the things in my browser or the lengths of the track titles in iTunes, or the lengths of filenames in a nautilus list view.

Sorry, but this sort of uber-control is way way beyond the ordinary user. I don't see it going into GNOME at all.

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 02:41 PM
But you're passing control to my desktop resolution (or fractions of it).

Im sorry too, I do not understand. Please elaborate.
It's simply resizing of windows which behaves more like 'cells' rather than overlapping windows. Each cells have tabs for switching to another app. You can choose to have 1 big cell which takes the whole screen (maximised window) with many 'tabs of apps'. Or many cells with lesser tabs for each cell

halfvolle melk
September 8th, 2006, 02:54 PM
You've probably already seen this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n-6oEcAZ80
Around 4:00 it show rearranging the windows, sort of ion-ish.

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Hi melk,

You mean the mac expose effect? That is quite useful, but no actual 'resizing' is being done. It tiles only temporarily. Once you select the tiled window that you want, all the windows go back to original size. As shown in that youtube link as well. It's useful but not what I'm looking for.

If 'actual resizing' is done through expose, and everything tiles, and does not go back to the original size after window focus. That would be 80%-90% what I want.

bonzodog
September 8th, 2006, 05:49 PM
I think one of the key things here about Ion3, is while it's a neat idea for a tabbed/tiled window manager, the Wm still needs a system tray and desktop menu.
Most people are not able to remember the commands issued for launching some of their apps.

I would love it if xfwm had a feature which made all apps on the current desk divide equally across the screen.

Your example of using Gaim; you have found no doubt that you cannot in fact close the buddy list because it will close Gaim altogether. A system tray is almost essential here. sometimes you need apps open but hidden. but able to be pulled up at a moments notice.

Also, xfwm and indeed OpenBox can adopt gtk2 theming. Opening something like FF and finding that the theme for it is stuck at a bland ugly grey can be annoying at best.

croak77
September 8th, 2006, 05:57 PM
I prefer wmii over ion. I feel stacks are a better way do organize windows then tabs.

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 07:11 PM
I think one of the key things here about Ion3, is while it's a neat idea for a tabbed/tiled window manager, the Wm still needs a system tray and desktop menu.
Most people are not able to remember the commands issued for launching some of their apps.

I would love it if xfwm had a feature which made all apps on the current desk divide equally across the screen.

Your example of using Gaim; you have found no doubt that you cannot in fact close the buddy list because it will close Gaim altogether. A system tray is almost essential here. sometimes you need apps open but hidden. but able to be pulled up at a moments notice.

Also, xfwm and indeed OpenBox can adopt gtk2 theming. Opening something like FF and finding that the theme for it is stuck at a bland ugly grey can be annoying at best.

Ion3 does have a system tray! You are right Gaim is one of a few/many apps (like update notifier) has no system tray icon. I use to just keep gaim opened in workspace 2, and guifications notify me while im in workspace 1 then i simply alt+2 to go to workspace 2 to look at the message. However kopete definitely shows up on the ion3 system tray. Most KDE apps i think would work.

A pretty-looking panel would be great. I tried running gnome-panel or xfce-panel, but it won't turn out well. Do you mean 'desktop menu' as in just the desktop on your background where you just drop files and folders on it?
If so, is it really necessary? A desktop is simply like your file manager (thunar/nautilus), without a wallpaper. Pressing the 'show desktop' button is pretty much the same as pressing the 'launch thunar/nautilus' button.


I prefer wmii over ion. I feel stacks are a better way do organize windows then tabs.
I've tried to use wmii a while ago, but it is abandoned, dwm (dynamic window manager) replaces it now. Have not tried dwm. If i remember correctly, wmii, ratpoison, stumpwm? do not have a system tray (need confirmation). Only ion3,to my knowledge, has a workable but faulty system tray. I was a bit confused with using wmii, but since it has no system tray, I did not bother to learn any further. I will use ion3 on my ancient computer for now, and wait for news about dwm. If you don't mind maybe you could explain to me about wmii, or point me somewhere?

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 07:47 PM
Ok now, tooo much on ion3.
Any traditional window manager users here who questions its efficiency now? I don't want you to hate your kwin, metacity, xfwm, etc. I just want you to go 'hey, maybe theres a few good points to keep in mind'.

Again, it is NOT about "tiling windows manager is alimighty and shud replace all window managers now!". It is about knowing our current window manager's limitation, and window manager developers can address it in newer updates. It doesn't have to be tiling/tabbing/pane/splitting/stacking, maybe theres something even better that no one has thought of yet. Or maybe just add a little optional function which prevents windows from cluttering and overlapping our screen. Or something more advance and may look awesome on with XGL/AIGLX, where maybe if a smaller window is dragged on top of a bigger window, instead of the smaller window just overlaps the bigger window, the bigger window will wobble its way to a smaller size while the smaller window wobbles its way to a bigger size, together trying to use as much screen space as possible. Or whatever!

Hopefully the future of window managers will be filled with more innovation.

I think the reign of Micros**t ******* has really made us work on computers the way Bill wants it, not the way WE want it. We are too accustomed to how to work in a Winblows environment. But it can't be helped, over 90% of comps use it.

slavik
September 8th, 2006, 08:15 PM
ion = GUI without a mouse

go back to the shell to your VI ... I am happy with my metacity and gvim.

What WOULD be nice is to be able to pin windows to always be on top even if they don't have focus (when you are reading a wiki page that gives you shell code to run, simple copy/paste with middle mouse button, quick and easy.)

encompass
September 8th, 2006, 08:28 PM
I submitted this thread to gnome usability...

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 08:36 PM
ion = GUI without a mouse

go back to the shell to your VI ... I am happy with my metacity and gvim.

What WOULD be nice is to be able to pin windows to always be on top even if they don't have focus (when you are reading a wiki page that gives you shell code to run, simple copy/paste with middle mouse button, quick and easy.)

I occasionally use the terminal but prefer GUI. Ion3 allows mouse use. Why should we go back to the shell? Ion3 supports GUI. People use ion3 not because they like typing commands in terminals, it's because it eases navigation between GUI apps. Please read more about it.

I am glad you are happy with your metacity and gvim. I like to use gvim too.

Workflow is better if our hands stay in one place, the keyboard. We lose focus (whether slightly or drastically) when we have to interchange between mouse and keyboard. Doesn't mean the mouse sucks. It exists for obvious reasons (GIMP and ease of use but does it mean it is efficient?).

That pinning windows already exists.

robin.com.au
September 8th, 2006, 08:44 PM
I submitted this thread to gnome usability...

Wonderful stuff, but would they bother reading this novel? I think I'll have to cut down on words and get more to the point.

I prefer XFCE(light and clean) and KDE(awesome apps) to take notice though. Gnome has deskbar and nautilus. But that's another story

robin.com.au
September 9th, 2006, 11:40 AM
Most people probably think you should use whatever interface works best for you, and maybe people are fine with the current model--I know I am. Alt-Tabbing is not a pain for me at all, and I have no reason to see what's behind my current window. I also have a window list at the bottom of my screen. The window list tells me what windows I have open.

Sorry I should have responded to your post earlier. I am sure everyone is find at the moment with the current model, it is definitely still usable and many are already used to it. But there are definitely ways to improve it. That's what I want, improvement and innovation.

I said alt+tabbing is a pain, and it's probably an exageration. Alt+tab is a good function for switching between apps 1 at a time. But it does not address the issue of working more than 1 application at a time.

I'm sure occasional you would like to work with more than 1 app for a while. Sometimes an app have more than 1 window, like GIMP. How do you arrange them to make full use of your screen space? Drag, pull, drag, pull, repeat.

Everyone use window list, it's essential pretty much. But think about alt+tabbing and the window list (kde calls it taskbar). When I press alt+tab, why must a small window in the middle of the screen with icons representing opened apps on it, when there is already a window list at the bottom(usually) already telling me what's opened. It seems redundant to me. I think alt+tab and window list should work more closely together. So instead of a new window popping up in the middle of the screen, it should just simply reuse the window list, and indicate clearly (with highlight?) which window is currently selected while alt+tabbing.


I think the OP means something similar to a button in Windows where it will tile all the open ones on the screen. It actually is a useful function on a large enough monitor when you need to compare two or more Windows.
Sorry I should have responded to your post earlier. Never seen such function on Windows. It is not there by default is it? It sounds like what I want, but I wonder how well it works and how space efficient it is.


Finding the right windowmanager/desktop environment is pretty similar to finding a distro that works for you, you just have to try them out and see what works best for you.. I've only tried a few WM:s/DE:s but I've found things that I like and things that I don't, fluxbox and e17 being the better ones IMHO.. Currently I've settled for gnome & compiz, as it gives me easy access to the things i need without being too bloated.

As for alt+tab/F12/whatever, it's all a matter of what you are acustomed to. I currently have a dual-screen setup with 6 virtual desktops and I find that switching between them using keyboard shortcuts is just as easy as having all my windows tabbed (ico3 style), since most of my desktops (5/6) often have atleast 3 or 4 programs running.

For me getting a second screen is what made the most difference, and having virtual desktops helps a lot too, bot there's never too much desktop space..

Maby a bit off topic, but it's my 2 cents
Sorry I should have responded to your post earlier. Sure, people needs to find what suits them, but don't you think all window managers are still soooooo similar (e17 is quite innovative though, with the workspace and all, but still encourage use of overlapping windows)? They all still do not allow working with more than 1 app efficiently.

Sure you can have dual/multiple-screen but think of the poor arses like me. If window managers are made to be more efficient, space conscious, innovative, there would be less need for buying another monitor screen.

Our current window managers encourage working with 1 maximised window at a time. Virtual desktops sure is good, but think about alt+tabbing and workspace switching. Aren't they both doing the same thing? Both only allow working with 1 window at a time. With this kind of window manager, dual-screen is the only solution. But I don't want to fork out my money for another monitor, my problem. Please improve window management.

Wolki
September 9th, 2006, 01:37 PM
Everyone use window list, it's essential pretty much. But think about alt+tabbing and the window list (kde calls it taskbar). When I press alt+tab, why must a small window in the middle of the screen with icons representing opened apps on it, when there is already a window list at the bottom(usually) already telling me what's opened. It seems redundant to me. I think alt+tab and window list should work more closely together. So instead of a new window popping up in the middle of the screen, it should just simply reuse the window list, and indicate clearly (with highlight?) which window is currently selected while alt+tabbing.

The reason for this is that alt-tab uses a least recently visited order, whereas the window list is more or less fixed. alt-tab gives you the possibility to switch between two windows very easily, no matter where there position is on the window list.

This is definitely not to say that fixed order switching doesn't have advantages, too. Projects like superswitcher do it (though again with a separate window, but I guess they need that as it shows all windows on all workspaces), and a "next/prev in window list" keyboard shortcut would be a very nice thing in GNOME. It can't replace alt-tab though.


They all still do not allow working with more than 1 app efficiently.

It depends on what you see as efficiently.


Our current window managers encourage working with 1 maximised window at a time. Virtual desktops sure is good, but think about alt+tabbing and workspace switching. Aren't they both doing the same thing? Both only allow working with 1 window at a time. With this kind of window manager, dual-screen is the only solution.

I'll side with jnoreiko here, basically the content determines how big the window size needs to be. Tiling, for example, two windows that both want ~75% of my available screen space makes no sense - there's not enough space for them. I can work with more than one og them in a classic window manager though, at the cost of them overlapping. Or think of a nautilus window that only contains very few items, there's no need for it to be a large window, but you'd have to do a lot of retiling to get it like that, if it's possible at all with the windows you have open right now.

Also, they need a lot of keyboard shortcuts, something we don't have a lot of left. Basically, everything with ctrl and alt is already taken or left for applications, ctrl-alt has several taken, plus we need to leave some for user-defined shortcuts. Super is basically left, but some applications have already started taking this one too, plus not all keyboards have one (for example my laptop doesn't).

This is not to say that tiling managers are fundamentally bad for everyone, but they don't fit many workflows, and they present many challenges if they are to be integrated in a complete desktop.

robin.com.au
September 9th, 2006, 02:41 PM
Tiled windowing was tried and found lacking. The Xerox Star, for example, used tiled window management. Also, Microsoft Windows was tiled until version 2. Check out this Ars article (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/gui.ars/1) for more examples.

"Eventually, a stripped-down version of the Alto, the Xerox Star 8010 Document Processor, was released to the public in 1981 for US$17,000. The Star had some differences from the Alto, most significantly the ability to overlap windows was removed as it was thought too confusing for the general public. Instead, the Star used tiled windows. As significant as the Star's release was, it was too little and too late for Xerox, who had by that time lost most of its top researchers to other companies."

What a shame, but interesting though. Thanks for the article.


The reason for this is that alt-tab uses a least recently visited order, whereas the window list is more or less fixed. alt-tab gives you the possibility to switch between two windows very easily, no matter where there position is on the window list.

Thank you for you input. You are right, it does make switching between to active apps quickly. A good point, i'll give you that. However, you are still limited to switching between only 2 apps efficiently. Not frequent you work with more than 2 apps, but when that time comes, I would like to just split the screen to work with 2 apps, or tile them side by side (horizontally or vertically, diagonally?) with 1 or 2 keypresses, or a single mouse-click.

But lets KEEP the alt+tab, let it swiftly switch between 2 recent windows.
How bout we have ctrl+tab which moves windows in the window list?

So lets say you have 3 windows in your window list. From left to right, Opera, Amarok, gedit, oowriter.

You are currently focused on Opera, you want to get to oowriter.
Instead of alt+tabbing and trying to remember the order that each app was recently opened, you would know that if you ctrl+tab 3 times, you will get to oowriter, OR ctrl+shift+tab once to cycle backwards to oowriter



It depends on what you see as efficiently.

I mainly mean, making use of all available screen space. I probably should make that clearer. If I want to work with 2 apps at the same time, eg. reading a webpage from Opera browser, while summarizing it in Openoffice Writer. Alt+tabbing would be a pain in that situation wudnt it? Of course you would go about placing the app side by side but not easily with few keypresses.



I'll side with jnoreiko here, basically the content determines how big the window size needs to be. Tiling, for example, two windows that both want ~75% of my available screen space makes no sense - there's not enough space for them. I can work with more than one og them in a classic window manager though, at the cost of them overlapping. Or think of a nautilus window that only contains very few items, there's no need for it to be a large window, but you'd have to do a lot of retiling to get it like that, if it's possible at all with the windows you have open right now.

That's why i said to jnoreiko that content shouldnt determine the window size, YOU should. But if you or the app for some reason MUST have 75% of the screen each, then i would think neither our classic window manager or tiled window manager would do a good job. It that case alt+tabbing is the only solution for both window managers. Theres no need for retiling for nautilus, not exactly sure what you mean actually, but if you only have nautilus opened, why do you need to make it smaller? If you have firefox opened and if it is tiled beside nautilus, then you may resize nautilus smaller, and at the same time making firefox window bigger.



Also, they need a lot of keyboard shortcuts, something we don't have a lot of left. Basically, everything with ctrl and alt is already taken or left for applications, ctrl-alt has several taken, plus we need to leave some for user-defined shortcuts. Super is basically left, but some applications have already started taking this one too, plus not all keyboards have one (for example my laptop doesn't).

True, but the power of customizability would allow removing/adding/editing shortcuts. Let's say we use a window manager in place of metacity. Metacity's shortcuts would be unassigned, so we just simply use those free keys for our new window manager.



This is not to say that tiling managers are fundamentally bad for everyone, but they don't fit many workflows, and they present many challenges if they are to be integrated in a complete desktop.
I encourage people to " sudo aptitude install ion3 " and read http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/06/19/1634225 . It really is a very sensible way of managing windows. We gotta think outside of how we manage windows, that is if you care.

Wolki
September 9th, 2006, 03:40 PM
Thank you for you input. You are right, it does make switching between to active apps quickly. A good point, i'll give you that. However, you are still limited to switching between only 2 apps efficiently.

Well, you can do three once in a while without large problems, but it requires you to keep a mental stack in your head or look at the popup every time... Well, that's the problem with alt-tab.



How bout we have ctrl+tab which moves windows in the window list?

From the GNOME side:

Keyboard navigation is pretty important, both for accessibility and for not having to reach for the mouse all the time. Thus, you need a key which cycles between widgets in a window; this key is the tab key. This presents us with a problem however, sometimes a widget needs the tab key itself - think of multiline entry fields, or things that have tab-completion. In that case, we need to have a key combination that does what tab does usually (and for consistency this combination should always work). In GNOME, this combination is ctrl-tab, and it's pretty much the only one left that at least has some kind of discoverability.

Taking the KDE side, ctrl-tab switches between workspaces; and with some cross-platform applications like gaim or firefox ctrl-tab switches between tabs.


You are currently focused on Opera, you want to get to oowriter.
Instead of alt+tabbing and trying to remember the order that each app was recently opened, you would know that if you ctrl+tab 3 times, you will get to oowriter, OR ctrl+shift+tab once to cycle backwards to oowriter


I completely see what you mean, it would be nice functionality (basically a keyboard shortcut for using the scroll wheel over the window list). This should probably be a wishlist bug somewhere...


That's why i said to jnoreiko that content shouldnt determine the window size, YOU should.


Of course. But i basically decide based on the content :)


But if you or the app for some reason MUST have 75% of the screen each, then i would think neither, our classic window manager or tiled window manager would do a good job. It that case alt+tabbing is the only solution for both window managers.

Not necessarily - sometimes only part of the window is relevant, say you want to look at some of the parts in one window while working in the other window, but still have that window sufficiently large for when you work in that window. Or when you quickly want to switch with the mouse.


Theres no need for retiling, not exactly sure what you mean actually, but if you only have nautilus opened, why do you need to make it smaller?


Well, I don't see widnows that are far larger than tjeir contents as particularly space-efficient :) For example, I might want to access stuff on my desktop (which I do rather often as i set my home directory to be my desktop). Or I could open more nautilus windows without having the contents nor placement of the previous window jump around.

Then there's the case where I might want to make a window less wide without having another window open, for example to make the lines in that window less long and thus easier to read.


True, but the power of customizability would allow removing/adding/editing shortcuts. Let's say we use a window manager in place of metacity. Metacity's shortcuts would be unassigned, so we just simply use those free keys for our new window manager.

Certainly, only that metacity uses very few shortcuts by default (though you can set a lot more if you want). Basically just alt-f4 to alt-f10 plus the workspace switch buttons, and you'd likely want to keep some of those with your new window manager.


We gotta think outside of how we manage windows, that is if you care.

I do care a lot about window management (there are times where I've counted more than 30 open windows here, so it's pure self-interest :) ), and I fully agree that the way we do it right now still has limitations. I do think that the paradigm of "allow overlaps and manual microplacement" is still better than "don't allow overlaps and place automatically" but I certainly wouldn't want to take it away from people who enjoy that.

Erik Trybom
September 9th, 2006, 04:21 PM
I use Gnome, but I customize it to my needs (small 1024x768 laptop screen).

What I do is I keep all windows maximized, all the time. When I need one, I just move my mouse pointer to the left of the screen, where I have an autohide menu with all the open apps. This way I can access any window I want in just one click while still using the whole screen.

Since the window names are stacked on top of each other, there's room for quite a lot of them. More than I can comfortably run with only 256 MB of memory.

robin.com.au
September 9th, 2006, 06:55 PM
I have done a flash presentation on how Ion3 works. I planned to make it interactive so that you all could use actual keyboard shortcuts in the presentation, but I think flash only allow ascii keypresses. So I can't use F2, alt, ctrl and all. So no interactivity for you

http://www.robin.com.au/swf/ion3.swf . Hope this makes things much clearer.

Here are some screenshots of my ion3 workspace
http://www.robin.com.au/image/ion3-workspace2.png
http://www.robin.com.au/image/ion3-gimp.png

Very space efficient.

In contrast, while I was getting ready the above 2 pics, I encountered this: http://www.robin.com.au/image/messy-metacity.png . I had a slight stroke.

Yes GIMP is one example that really clutters your desktop. Ion3 would be quite suited for it.

robin.com.au
September 9th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Is it (ion3) mainly for people who stay in a shell all day? How does it (or could it) help conventional users who browse the web, check email, edit photos, etc?
I've finally figured out what 'shell' means(duh!terminal!). The answer is no, it's for you and me and everyone. Still GUI. Refer to the screenshots and flash presentation in the 1st post.

ago
September 9th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Greetings,

SUMMARY
I want everyone including developers, GNOME, KDE, XFCE, and other major players to take notice of tiled window management, because of its innovation and efficiency. A more innovative, efficient and productive way of managing windows is needed/wanted!!

I had the same idea and sent an email to the xfce dev mailing list, the response was not very positive at the time.

Here is my letter


What about having an option to use a dockable/notebook interface at the window manager level? It could probably be done with fairly little overhead/code provided the following are implemented:

1) Border locking, i.e . when a border is resized, the adiacent windows are also resized. It can be implemented by registering a resize action of a window whith the border resize event of an adjacent window. Such "registration" takes place whenever a new window is docked or undocked.

2) Drop zones. i.e. 9 icons displayed whenever a window is moved. 4 icons on the borders of the screen (screen-dropzones). 5 icons in the middle of the docked window under the cursor (window-dropzones). When a window is dropped on one of such icons it gets docked in the appropriate position ( i.e. other windows are appropriately resized and the borders are locked). The 4 screen-dropzones will place the window on the sides/top/bottom of the screen with the window maximed either vertically or horizontally. The 5 window-dropzones dock the window using half of the space available in the window under cursor (up/down/left/right) or as a new tab (middle). If a window is dropped anywhere else or is maximized it becomes a floating window. When a docked window is maximized and then restored it gets docked in its previous position.

3) Windows tabs. Could be inserted inside current window borders (below the statusbar) as opposed to being attached on the outside as in fluxbox. This will allow to use current themes and have little impact on other windowing operations.

Other than the dropzone icons, tabs and some pointer feedback (bidirectional arrow when pointer is over a border), no other change to visual elements is required. Most of the code involves "smart resizing", half of which can be implemented via border locking.

In short it is like ion, but with a nicer interface, similar to some modern IDEs. The idea is inspired by some docking controls as found in http://www.snakesoft.net/wxifm or http://sourceforge.net/projects/dockpanelsuite

I absolutely agree that a tiled window manager makes a lot of sense. Some of the most complex applications (IDEs like eclipse, VS, sharpdevelop, anjuta, monodevelop...) have moved away from simple MDI to a proper docking interface in order to effectively manage several windows while minimizing screen real estate waste. I do not see why the window manager which can be considered an extremely complex application should use MDI.

Particolarly considering that:

1) it is possible to mix floating windows and tiled windows (not in ion, but several IDEs give you this option). So you can have a background of tiled windows with one or more floating ones on top. You need dropzones to achieve this.

2) it should be possible to switch between MDI and tabbed docking interface, possibly at desktop level (so that some desktops could be in MDI mode and others in docking mode).

3) You should be able to still maximize and restore a window.

4) A lot of code can be offloaded from individual apps and moved to the window manager. Apps would only need to use SDI, complex layouts can be taken care of by the window manager.

Count me in on this one!

ago
September 9th, 2006, 10:20 PM
Tiled windowing was tried and found lacking. The Xerox Star, for example, used tiled window management. Also, Microsoft Windows was tiled until version 2. Check out this Ars article (http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/gui.ars/1) for more examples.

Think eclipse and you will be closer.

robin.com.au
September 9th, 2006, 10:24 PM
Hi ago,

I had to read your post over and over and I think I understand your concept, and I like it very much. If you have time maybe you can make some sort of slide show or images of your idea, something like my ion3 flash presention?

It would work great with the mouse but what about the keyboard? I love my keyboard shortcuts.

I will be adding your idea to my 1st post.



1) it is possible to mix floating windows and tiled windows (not in ion, but several IDEs give you this option).
Ion3 can have 1 workspace for tiling windows and another workspace for floating windows. But tiling and floating windows cannot co-exist in 1 workspace.

ago
September 9th, 2006, 10:57 PM
If you have time maybe you can make some sort of slide show or images of your idea, something like my ion3 flash presention?

It really is like using any modern IDE. You can dock windows, use tabs, move tabs around, undock a tiled window and make it floating, etc... The best docking interface I have seen is the one using drop zones. Some icons appear when you start moving a window. If you drop the window on one of those icons the window gets docked in the appropriate position, otherwise it stays floating. It is very clear where windows are going to be docked and easy to use. The docking controls mentioned above implement this. And I think that gtk has something similar, but without visual dropzones (dropzones are hidden, when you are on top of one, you see where the window is going to be positioned. That is an older interface and IMO less functional than the one using visual dropzones).

The idea about window border locking is to minimize "the visual impact" and the "code impact". With this approach the window borders do not need to be redesigned (except for tabs, but that is a completely separate issue) and you can handle most behaviour via chained resize events using the same visual elements instead of sash windows.

This should greatly reduce the amount of changes required in the code and it should allow to use traditionally looking windows, with themes and everything, while enabling people to tile windows together. For users that do not want to use docking, nothing will change at all. And if you use docking, the screen will look identical to before, except that all screen real estate will be in use at any time. The only visual difference might be the pointer when you hover over a locked border.


It would work great with the mouse but what about the keyboard? I love my keyboard shortcuts.
I don't see why one should not be able to use keyboard shortcuts.

It will work slightly differently from ion3 though, since you do not split the screen first and the open a window in it, but you select a target window to dock into or you dock into one of the screen borders.

In my case, keyboard shortcuts could be: alt+1 (dock on top of screen), alt+2 (dock on the right of screen)... alt+left/right/up/down select adjacent window to dock into (indicated by the dropzones appearing in target window), then press 1/2/3/4/5 to dock on top/right/down/left/tab of that window. Or something similar. It would be very fast with keyboard as well, probably faster than with current ion key combinations.

By the way, alt+tab should work as usual.


Ion3 can have 1 workspace for tiling windows and another workspace for floating windows. But tiling and floating windows cannot co-exist in 1 workspace.

I think that is a limitation. In the design above, to have a floating window, all you have to do is move a window and drop it anywhere except on a target zone. To dock a floating window, move it and drop it on a target zone. I don't think it gets simpler than that. You could have a key combination to undock (alt+9 for instance), and ctrl+alt+arrows to move the floating window around, but admittedly mixed floating/tiled environment is less useful without mouse. But that is hardly an issue, since if you are in the keyboard crowd you simply avoid making a window floating.

ago
September 9th, 2006, 11:30 PM
By the way, I see future desktops moving in 2 opposite directions:

1) For power users a tiled/docked interface as described above. Since tiling can be turned on and off, that also covers current MDI approach.

2) Simplified interface for normal user, having a single window maximized all the time, plus a sidebar with task oriented sections. Somewhat similar to google desktop (ever wondered why they called it so?). Appropriate sections might be: contacts, images, music, videos, games, documents, news... Each one may contain appropriate notifications. When you click on one of the sections of the sidebar, a browser appears (with a unified, consistent interface, timeline selector, tag selector, searchbox...). Each section includes related tasks, so the contacts section will incorporate: email + chat + IM + newsgroup + IPPhone..., all contact events are considered similar, all notifications are in the same section, all are browsed for together. No menus, no individual applications (=abstracted behind task-centric interface), no folders (save as you type, tags instead of folders)...

robin.com.au
September 10th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Intriguing, the 'docking' feature seems very feasible, yet not implemented in any window managers. Is there nobody out there developing that sort of feature? Since you say it is not that hard to implement, is there really no interest amongst developers?

Ago, you seem to know a lot about the code behind the docking feature. Couldn't you contribute somehow to making it happen. I don't know how software development works or what is involved.

Hey maybe you should tell the guys/gals of compiz.net about it. Since 3D window managers are the way of the future. It would be a good idea to start there.

Damn, forum-ing is really time-consuming, It's 7am and I have not slept yet. I shouldn't be spending so much time in this forum this week. I have critical deadlines due soon. I must resist contributing to this thread for this week, but I don't want it to die.

If people like 'ago' with ideas and thoughts of a better window manager, and also people like 'wolki' who are happy floating window users, could come here, discuss and keep this thread alive, that would be great. I hope this thread don't completely die at the end of Friday.

Or even better, get active developers in here to discuss why such ideas of improving our window manager should or should not be implemented.

Well then, off I go for now.

So.. obviously there are plenty of ideas for improving our window managers, tiling, docking, anything else?

Let the developers know that there are better ways.

ago
September 10th, 2006, 02:38 PM
Since you say it is not that hard to implement, is there really no interest amongst developers?
Well "not that hard" is always a relative concept...


Couldn't you contribute somehow to making it happen.
Yes, provided there is some help from the WM developers to begin with. Because 1) I do not want to spend long hours and see the patches rejected. People must agree that it is a good idea beforehand. And they did not, in fact they seemed quite hostile, and I am not in fighiting mood. 2) I may need some help to get the gist of the WM and to speed up development, I do not have a lot of time myself. In short, if I had met some of the developers as favorable as you are to the project I would have started, but I did not.


Hey maybe you should tell the guys/gals of compiz.net about it. Since 3D window managers are the way of the future. It would be a good idea to start there.
Unfortunately I think that a tiled WM makes lots of the features of a 3D WM redundant or at least less useful... Also I think that the objective is less interesting to them, since they may focus more on nice looking plugins.

robin.com.au
September 10th, 2006, 03:00 PM
In short, if I had met some of the developers as favorable as you are to the project I would have started, but I did not.

What a shame, I can't code. The best I could do is PHP.



Unfortunately I think that a tiled WM makes lots of the features of a 3D WM redundant or at least less useful... Also I think that the objective is less interesting to them, since they may focus more on nice looking plugins.
Actually this guy in compiz.net told me about a plugin called 'miniwin', I just searched about it a while ago, and I came across a fork of miniwin called 'dock'. It seems neither are in active development and plugins are still unstable. As you mentioned, lack of interest I guess.

I may go make some noise there, but not now, im supposed to be busy.

And about asking you to make a presentation, your explanation on how your docking works is probably clear enough but people still prefer pictures over words, and not everyone use IDEs before. I think it will have a better 'wow' effect when they see moving pictures. Who knows what people inteperate in their heads when they read about something. Actually I'll do a flash presentation about it to show my inteperatation of docking windows, and maybe you can as well, if you want, up to you.

hizaguchi
September 15th, 2006, 05:56 PM
Yeah, I just use Compiz and the Scale plugin. Sure, I have to take my hand off the keyboard, but so what? I also take my hand off the keyboard to get a drink of water, and to scratch my head, and to stretch, and to dig something out of a drawer, and ... If somebody can make a window manager that handles all of that stuff for me, then they'll make a difference in my productivity. But until then, the half second that it takes me to click on the window I want is really not that big of a deal.

Besides that though, even if I could move to another window, or tile, or whatever just by thinking about it, I still think Compiz would be faster. This is simply because no matter how you pick an open application, you have to decide which one it is you want. And for me, seeing them all spread out on the screen allows me to recognize what I'm looking for much faster than any other way I've seen yet.

Most importantly of all though, Compiz is attractive! Working in a visually pleasing environment is relaxing and further improves productivity by reducing the amount of time I spend walking away from the computer to get my mind back together. Even if there was a window manager that always knew exactly which window I needed, exactly when I needed it, and would bring it forward for me without any interaction at all, I'd still waste a good portion of my work time making trips to the bathroom, or to get water, or to go outside and look at the clouds. Using an attractive interface makes working more pleasant and protects my sanity. All hail wobbly windows! :)

ago
September 15th, 2006, 06:49 PM
And for me, seeing them all spread out on the screen allows me to recognize what I'm looking for much faster than any other way I've seen yet.

Well that is exactly the idea of a tiled WM...

It is like Compiz expose', but always on.

Except that:

1) the window is resized to fit the available space and not shrunk down (so the font and everything is 100% its original size),

2) you can work directly in the window without having to click on it to enlarge it first (so that all other windows remain visible),

3) you can resize the window (which will automatically resize adjacent windows accordingly) and maximize it.

And you could have that even if you are not a keyboard freak. ION is a keyboard-driven tiled WM, but it does not have to be that way.


Most importantly of all though, Compiz is attractive!

You could build tiled windows on top of Compiz and have identical eye candy. One thing does not exclude the other.

The point is that if you have a tiled window manager you will not need a lot of Compiz features... You need those features to accomodate for the deficiencies of the MDI interface of standard WM.

If windows are tiled automatically, transparency becomes far less relevant because there are no overlapping windows, alt+tab becomes less relevant because you do not need to cycle through windows, expose' becomes useless because windows are already tiled, wobbly becomes superfluous...

But other Compiz features would be useful: the cube, fading and transparencey for menus, dialogues and floating windows, zooming...

By the way this is relevant http://www.mail-archive.com/gtk-devel-list@gnome.org/msg03720.html

hizaguchi
September 15th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Scale/Expose is great because it lets you tile the windows when you need to sort them out, but lets you keep them large otherwise. That works for me because I tend to use several apps at a time that each require a significant portion of the screen. I can keep several windows around that are 3/4 the screen size and tile them just when I need to. If I had to have them tiled all the time, I'd have to put them on different desktops because 1/2 the screen for each (not even considering all the other windows I have open) just isn't enough.

I do see where a tiled window manager would be better. A while back I was managing a CAD drawing database and I used the "tile windows vertically/horizontally" option in Windows quite a bit because I just needed a little space for each window. Keeping several terminals on the screen would benefit the same way. But for alot of applications, tiling just isn't practical. Maybe there should just be a "tile windows" plugin for Compiz. Best of both worlds.

ago
September 15th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Scale/Expose is great because it lets you tile the windows when you need to sort them out, but lets you keep them large otherwise.
You could easily replicate that behaviour in a tiled WM: when you maximize a tiled windows it fills the screen, when you unmaximize it, it comes back into its docked position. And there could be automatic triggers to restore a window. I.E. when you move the mouse in the corner any docked+maximized window could be restored and all the tiled windows are shown. You could also make windows that need to be reduced in size by more than X% behave like expose' (i.e. shrunk instead of resized, and maximized when activated) and keep the otehrs docked as usual. Lots of possibilities...


I can keep several windows around that are 3/4 the screen size and tile them just when I need to. If I had to have them tiled all the timep, I'd have to put them on different desktops because 1/2 the screen for each (not even considering all the other windows I have open) just isn't enough.

Well for instance you could have a larger area (3/4) with tabs for each of the large apps, and keep the chat and terminal docked in the remaining 1/4. Or you could also have the larger windows floating and all the others tiled. A tiled WM gives the ability to do anything you are used to do + things that are simply not possible with traditional WM. It does not force you to use a tiled environment all the time. Do not think that all tiled WM have to behave like ION.


I used the "tile windows vertically/horizontally" option in Windows quite a bit because I just needed a little space for each window.
I have not used the app, but if you mean something similar to tiling documents in excel, that is not really it... Tiling without docking is not that useful. Most MDIs can rearrange the children windows, but the arrangements break down as soon as yor resize or move a window. As suggested, install eclipse and you will have a better idea.


Maybe there should just be a "tile windows" plugin for Compiz. Best of both worlds.
That has been proposed by robin and in fact might be a good idea after all. As mentioned tiling makes some compiz features less relevant. Nevertheless the fact that all functionality is encapsulated in a single plugin makes it much more likely for the devs to accept it....

hizaguchi
September 16th, 2006, 12:47 AM
I'm not trying to be negative, and I'm impressed by how much thought you've obviously put into this, but I still don't think this kind of thing is for me. I like the fact that recent window managers (Aqua, Compiz, etc.) are taking steps toward being more fluid and unrestrictive. A big part of the reason I enjoy Compiz so much is that it allows me to scatter windows all over the desktop but still be completely organized. That takes alot of thought and effort out of using the interface, makes the experience more relaxed, and still lets me find things quickly and efficiently. It's a feel thing, I guess. I like to sling windows around and not worry about placement. It feels free. I don't imagine windows in neat rows having that kind of feel, so I have a hard time getting excited about the idea. Like I said though, I can see it's merits.

robin.com.au
September 16th, 2006, 05:11 AM
...the half second that it takes me to click on the window I want is really not that big of a deal.

I can keep several windows around that are 3/4 the screen size and tile them just when I need to. If I had to have them tiled all the time, I'd have to put them on different desktops because 1/2 the screen for each (not even considering all the other windows I have open) just isn't enough.

Maybe there should just be a "tile windows" plugin for Compiz. Best of both worlds.
Maybe it's not big a deal. It saves you half a second right? At least it saves something. I've found 5 cents! It's still money right? Over time it adds up. Anyway that's the kind of person I am. It's also about utilising screen space. I'm sure our idea will save us many seconds, maybe 3-5 seconds? Just open 2 images with GIMP, see how long it takes to drag and resize those toolbox, layers and workarea, while making use of every pixel of your monitor screen.

People have great misconception about 'tiled windows' thinking that windows MUST be tiled. No, that is where tabbing comes in. Please look at http://www.robin.com.au/swf/ion3.swf for a quick demonstration.

The philosophy is:
Show the window, or don't show the window at all!
When working with 1 window, take the whole screen, while leaving inactive windows hidden, tabbed(preferably), minimized, whatever.
When working with 2 or more windows, tile/dock them accordingly while using the whole screen. Don't have PARTS of unmaximised windows overlapping this and that window! (That's what our current windows tend to do)

Isn't that the most sensible way of managing windows?

Anyway YES, BEST OF BOTH WORLDS, that's what I/we want to push towards. Makes everyone happy. Ago's docking feature seems to be the current best option to make that happen. http://www.compiz.net/topic-4468-changing-window-managers-behave-dock-miniwin-tile



That(compiz dock/tile plugin) has been proposed by robin and in fact might be a good idea after all. As mentioned tiling makes some compiz features less relevant. Nevertheless the fact that all functionality is encapsulated in a single plugin makes it much more likely for the devs to accept it....
Sure am, http://www.compiz.net/topic-4468-changing-window-managers-behave-dock-miniwin-tile



I don't imagine windows in neat rows having that kind of feel, so I have a hard time getting excited about the idea. Like I said though, I can see it's merits.
Don't forget neat columns! Anyway yes, a docking feature would make people like you me and ago happy.

ago
September 16th, 2006, 01:40 PM
I don't imagine windows in neat rows having that kind of feel,
Who said that windows have to be in a row? You could have a window on filling the top 20%, another on the left filling 20%, and the other filling all the rest. You are thinking in terms of MDI "windows>tile horizontally"... That is not what I am talking about.

ago
September 16th, 2006, 01:47 PM
http://www.compiz.net/topic-4468-changing-window-managers-behave-dock-miniwin-tile


Thanks for citing me. One suggestion off my own experience: with a title like "Changing the way Window Managers behave" you might upset the devs since they may think that their WM is "wrong". Something like "MrTidy plugin" sounds much better...

I am willing to elaborate on that.

robin.com.au
September 16th, 2006, 03:57 PM
... with a title like "Changing the way Window Managers behave" you might upset the devs since they may think that their WM is "wrong". Something like "MrTidy plugin" sounds much better...

Ahh.. well I thought it would catch some attention with that. Which hasn't really has it? Anyway, if a developer sees that 'upsetting' title, they would probably wanna get in there to see what this 'idiot' is talking about right? So hopefully by then, they can see that I mean no harm. However I see your point, maybe 'changing' is a bit much, should have used something like 'extending'. Anyway it's too late to change the title sorry.

jpkotta
September 17th, 2006, 09:48 PM
Very interesting thread. About 2 years ago, I became interested in this problem (the inadequacy of vanilla window management), and decided to customize the hell out of a WM and see how far I could get. I chose FVWM because it seemed (and still seems) like the most customizable WM. These are some of the things I ended up with:

Moving your hand to/from keyboard/mouse is a huge bottleneck. I have keyboard bindings for almost every mouse function (but not vice versa, because the keyboard is a richer source of information than 3 buttons). In practice, I usually use the mouse for resizing and moving, but everything else is more or less done with whichever input device my hand is on. Almost all keyboard bindings use the Super modifer.

On the mouse side, the screen edges are huge in the Fitt's law sense, so I have various actions bound to them.

I don't really use titlebar buttons, but rather I have actions bound to the whole titlebar (because it's bigger than a little button and much less likely to be overlapped). For example, rolling the mouse wheel on the titlebar will resize the lower right corner.

There is an FVWM built-in command called Pick, it changes your pointer to a crosshair and you click on a window and some action gets performed on it (like closing, for example). I made a function called PickAgain, that recursively calls itself until you press ESC, so you can do the same thing to as many windows as you want.

Focusing in most WMs is broken. I've never really cared for mouse focus (whatever window the pointer is in is focused) or the Windows-style click focus (focus is not changed until you click in a different window). The problem with the Windows-style focusing is that it always raises the focused window. My setup has click to focus, but raising is done separately. As I type this, an Emacs window full of WM notes I've written is floating unfocused above my Opera window.

You can do a lot more with a CLI than a GUI in many situations. I have 2 terminals that are hidden until I hit Super+Space. I can flip between them with the same binding. I can hide them with Super+Alt+Space. And on my machine with an NVidia graphics card, I made them translucent with xcompmgr, so I can read information on windows below them as I type into them.

Finally, I have Emacs-style multiple keystroke bindings. For example, I can launch Opera with "Super+S O" and Emacs with "Super+S E". I can maximize with "Super+X X" and close with "Super+X C". It's much easier to remember many bindings this way.

More on topic, I deal with the problem of overlapping windows with virtual desktops. FVWM has pages and desktops; a page is a viewing area the size of the screen, a desktop is made up of a grid of M by N pages, and all desktops are the same size (there is no limit to how many desktops there are). I have four 2x2 desktops. I use desktops according to task; e.g. I surf the web on desktop zero, work with Octave in desktop one, etc. When I have more than about 4 windows in a page on some desktop, I move some to the next page. I use an Alt-Tab type binding to switch between windows on the current page. It works pretty well, but it could still be better.

I'm really intrigued with this docking idea of ago's. It sounds like some features in SCWM (which is not being actively developed anymore, last I checked). I think you could make a module for FVWM and easily get it accepted into the project. FVWM is so configurable because they take just about anyone's patches, as long as they don't break something. Usually, the reason for rejecting a patch is "that is a function that doesn't belong in a WM". In the case of modules (aka plugins), they're not really part of the WM.

jpkotta
September 18th, 2006, 08:13 AM
Here is an interesting article I found a year ago.
http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9726166/WindowInterfaces.pdf

ago
September 18th, 2006, 09:57 AM
It sounds like some features in SCWM (which is not being actively developed anymore, last I checked).

The best description I can give is a modern IDE, where you can drag & dock panels on the screen sides, or nest them within other panels. An IDE has to manage several eterogeneous windows (editing several buffers, project managers, properties, shell, debugging info, class explorer...), most of which you want to access easily all the time. A situation which is similar to a WM. Most IDEs moved away from pure MDI and addressed the problem with a docking-tiled system. I do not see why the same approach should not be applied to the desktop. In modern IDEs though when a window is docked you do not see the usual borders, in fact a sash window widget is used instead. I propose to keep using standard window borders and simply chain resize events.


I think you could make a module for FVWM and easily get it accepted into the project.

It is probably possible to encapsulate my approach within a single plugin, which is more or less agnostic of the specific window manager and therefore fairly portable. The main requirement is the existance of a plugin system where you can:

1) intercept window/mouse events (move/resize/maximize/restore)
2) override default behaviour by modifying the windows layout accordingly
3) be able to draw on the desktop (dropzones)

In the simplest case think about 2 windows tiled vertically. In a simple MDI approach if you drag the right border of the left window to enlarge it, the other window does not react so that the left window ends up overlapping the right one and tiling is broken.

The basic idea of a tiled/docked WM is to chain resize events of SOME windows (not necessarily all). So that once 2 windows are tiled vertically, the resize event of the right border of the left window is chained to the resize event of the left border of the right window. In this case when you enlarge the left window, the right one will shrink accordingly so that the windows will remain tiled all the time.

Both windows will still look like two ordinary windows, with borders and all, you may only want to give some small graphical hints on the chained borders/pointer.

You can still have floating windows. In this context a floating window is simply a window in which resize events are not chained to other windows. As for the Z order, all tiled window are children of a single full screen window, whose Z order is the one used with respect to other floating windows.

To dock a window you drop it on a special dropzone (or use some key combinations). Dropzones appear when you start moving a window. To undock a window you drop it outside of a dropzone (or use a special key combination). Once a window is docked, the pre-existing windows are resized to "make space", and the register of chanined borders is updated as required. When undocked, pre-existing windows are expanded as required and the register of chained borders is udpdated.

Tabs are also possible, but are a completely separate issue and are somewhat more complex to implement. They require a modification of graphical elements.

PS thanks for the link, interesting read

ago
September 18th, 2006, 12:35 PM
I posted a message on Compiz forum http://www.compiz.net/topic-4572-dockzones-plugin let's see what is the feedback.

robin.com.au
September 18th, 2006, 01:32 PM
I chose FVWM because it seemed (and still seems) like the most customizable WM. These are some of the things I ended up with:
...etc...

FVWM's extensive customizability sounds very intriguing and could probably allow me to achieve my goals. But is it so customizable that it is difficult to get things working? Does it take a lot of time to get things set up? I wiki-ed fvwm up and came across many screenshots and I am impressed. I came across one screenshot of tiled windows, can FVWM allow me to configure it so that windows will behave like tiled windows? or tile my windows with a push of a button? I will definitely have a play with it when I have time. The page and desktop concept is interesting as well. Is there a good tutorial site about customizing FVWM? FVWM looks like something I would use alongside Compiz.

EDIT: Actually I'm familiar with the page and desktop concept, it's the same as enlightenment (e16-17 is based off fvwm anyway). It makes my desktop space heaps larger than my actual monitor screen size, but the reality is, you still can only actively work with a 15-inch(17,etc.) area of your monitor screen. So with that 15 inch space, I would like to make use of the whole space by tiling windows side by side, with a push aof 1 or 2 buttons(instead of tedious mouse resizing), if I wish to work with more than 1 app at a time.

Thank you for informing me/us about FVWM. There is so many great WMs out there but you don't here much about them, especially now with Compiz. Everyone is too used to our floating windows.


Here is an interesting article I found a year ago.
http://stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9726166/WindowInterfaces.pdf
Many pages there, I will keep it on my desktop for near-future read.


I posted a message on Compiz forum http://www.compiz.net/topic-4572-dockzones-plugin let's see what is the feedback.
Very good! Because my compiz thread was going nowhere. I hope you get very positive feedbacks. As you know by now, their definition of 'dock' is related to the OSX bottom panel.

robin.com.au
September 18th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Compiz-Quinnstorm will be forking from Compiz into 'Beryl'. I think if DockZone is to be developed, it would probably be for Beryl since it is community-driven.

ago
September 18th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Compiz-Quinnstorm will be forking from Compiz into 'Beryl'. I think if DockZone is to be developed, it would probably be for Beryl since it is community-driven.

Well unfortunately my only PC capable of running compiz is broken now (power plug desoldered from MB, I tried to solder it back myself but made the situation even worse). So first incarnation will probably be a prof-of-concept stand-alone python app (pretending to be a desktop).

robin.com.au
September 18th, 2006, 04:39 PM
Well unfortunately my only PC capable of running compiz is broken now (power plug desoldered from MB, I tried to solder it back myself but made the situation even worse). So first incarnation will probably be a prof-of-concept stand-alone python app (pretending to be a desktop).
Ahh..you posted in the 'plugin-development' section in compiz.net so I thought you were planning to start doing something on it soon.

ago
September 18th, 2006, 05:38 PM
Ahh..you posted in the 'plugin-development' section in compiz.net so I thought you were planning to start doing something on it soon.

Yes, but probably only a prototype. Which should be good enough.
The advantages of this approach are:

1) I do not need to fix my PC to work on it,
2) I do not have to learn all the nitty-gritties of the WM,
3) I can use python and quickly experiment with features,
4) The code will be decoupled from specific WM -> the same code can be ported to many WMs.
5) It will be easier for people to "see" my ideas.

The main disadvantage is that for each WM you need to find another developer willing to help porting the code. I posted on Compiz mainly to get some feedback.

ago
September 18th, 2006, 08:59 PM
A bit OT but for those interested in FVWM this link might be interesting: http://polishlinux.org/apps/fvwm-crystal-speed-and-transparency/

robin.com.au
September 19th, 2006, 04:27 PM
I've been playing with FVWM. Took me a while to figure out how to configure stuff in ~/.fvwm/config . Now I could write simple instructions to do simple things like:

Mouse 3 T M Resize
(which means, if right-mouseclick(3rd mouse button) + alt(Meta) on window Title bar, do Resize window)

There is a tiling feature as well with 'FvwmRearrange' which I could bind to a key. It tiles but resizing one tiled window won't resize the other window as well. But maybe theres a way? Gotta go find out.

The window border looks boring by default though, but that can be fixed with some skinning. Doesn't matter since it's doing so much more than metacity at the moment, and it's much lighter as well. Why is it that the faster, lighter, yet unpopular things, does so much more than slow, heavier(for some reason), popular things?

Awesome. Can't wait to learn the more advance stuff. Could be replacing my metacity and window list soon.

Thanks jpkotta for bringing FVWM to light and ago for more info about it.

By the way, 3 things I wanna do in FVWM
1. To make gnome-panel behave normally, instead of, 'being a window'.
2. Make windows iconify to bottom-left, then fill up to the right. (rather than iconify to top-left, then fill down)
3. Making the iconified window at the bottom not covered up after maximising windows.

I find that its easier to identify a big unique identifiable icon, than a window list with small text. I'm a slow reader. Picture speaks louder than words anyway, or is it action? Makes sense either way.

ago
September 19th, 2006, 04:32 PM
It tiles but resizing one tiled window won't resize the other window as well. But maybe theres a way? Gotta go find out.
I doubt it. I am using a binary tree ATM to store window layout, and to chain resize events you need something similar. Not likely to be in as a default switch. Once I finish the code can probably be ported to a script.

jpkotta
September 19th, 2006, 10:36 PM
The best description I can give is a modern IDE, where you can drag & dock panels on the screen sides, or nest them within other panels. An IDE has to manage several eterogeneous windows (editing several buffers, project managers, properties, shell, debugging info, class explorer...), most of which you want to access easily all the time. A situation which is similar to a WM. Most IDEs moved away from pure MDI and addressed the problem with a docking-tiled system. I do not see why the same approach should not be applied to the desktop. In modern IDEs though when a window is docked you do not see the usual borders, in fact a sash window widget is used instead. I propose to keep using standard window borders and simply chain resize events.

I understand what you're saying. I'm saying that SCWM has some of those features. In particular, it can force windows to always be stuck together on one edge and always have equal width or height - just like the docking idea. It is a fork of FVWM with the configuration language replaced by Scheme (SCWM = Scheme Constraints Window Manager). You constrain windows to behave a certain way, like always having the top edge 10 pixels away from the top of the screen. I've never used it, mainly because development stopped before I found it and I already have an FVWM config I'm happy with. If you're really ambitious, you could update it to work with the current FVWM and get all the bugfixes and extentions that have been added since SCWM died.


It is probably possible to encapsulate my approach within a single plugin, which is more or less agnostic of the specific window manager and therefore fairly portable. The main requirement is the existance of a plugin system where you can:

1) intercept window/mouse events (move/resize/maximize/restore)
2) override default behaviour by modifying the windows layout accordingly
3) be able to draw on the desktop (dropzones)

I haven't looked too hard at FVWM code, and I've never made a module. But I know that 2 and 3 are OK (because some modules do that), and probably 1 too, but not sure. You can write FVWM modules in Perl and C, but I don't think Python.

jpkotta
September 19th, 2006, 10:58 PM
There is a tiling feature as well with 'FvwmRearrange' which I could bind to a key. It tiles but resizing one tiled window won't resize the other window as well. But maybe theres a way? Gotta go find out.

Unfortunately, I don't think so.



The window border looks boring by default though, but that can be fixed with some skinning. Doesn't matter since it's doing so much more than metacity at the moment, and it's much lighter as well. Why is it that the faster, lighter, yet unpopular things, does so much more than slow, heavier(for some reason), popular things?

Because FVWM is configured with text files and 99% of people don't have the patience to learn how to write them. It's so complex it's probably impossible to create a GUI to configure anything other than a handful of options.


By the way, 3 things I wanna do in FVWM
1. To make gnome-panel behave normally, instead of, 'being a window'.
2. Make windows iconify to bottom-left, then fill up to the right. (rather than iconify to top-left, then fill down)
3. Making the iconified window at the bottom not covered up after maximising windows.

1:

Style gnome-panel StaysOnBottom, GNOMEIgnoreHints
2:

Style * IconBox 1280x960, IconFill Left Bottom, IconGrid 10 10
3:
This one is trickier. Define a new Iconify function to also place the icon on a higher layer.


DestroyFunc IconifyAndChangeLayer
AddToFunc IconifyAndChangeLayer
+ I Iconify $@
+ I ThisWindow (!Iconic) Layer default
+ I ThisWindow (Iconic) Layer 0 6



I find that its easier to identify a big unique identifiable icon, than a window list with small text. I'm a slow reader. Picture speaks louder than words anyway, or is it action? Makes sense either way.

I have attached my screenshot thumbnail config, so that you can have icons that are screenshots of the actual window, like Compiz (but not as good).

ago
September 19th, 2006, 11:11 PM
well I am writing this from crystal (fvwm based) it is really nice



sudo apt-get install fvwm python imagemagick rox-filer\
xscreensaver trayer gksu aterm habak mpd mpc
wget http://download.gna.org/fvwm-crystal/3.0.4/fvwm-crystal-3.0.4.tar.gz
tar xvzf fvwm-crystal-3.0.4.tar.gz
cd fvwm-crystal-3.0.4
sudo make install
sudo cp addons/fvwm-crystal.desktop /usr/share/xsessions/



logout and login into new session

robin.com.au
September 20th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Because FVWM is configured with text files and 99% of people don't have the patience to learn how to write them. It's so complex it's probably impossible to create a GUI to configure anything other than a handful of options.

Since it is just that one text file which you modify to do all the configuration, im sure somebody could make a GUI with checkboxes and input fields, and behind the scenes, it is simply writing lines of code to ~/.fvwm/config when checkboxes get ticked.

For example/imaginary purposes:
I run 'fvwm-keyconfig'
Window pops up
There are lists of options with checkboxes or input fields next to them
If you tick the checkbox, "Minimize window when 1st button from left of title bar is pressed"
Then you press 'apply/ok', fvwm-keyconfig will simply write "Mouse 1 1 A Delete" to ~/.fvwm/config

Now I'm sure the above example is not the best way to configure keybindings. Look at xbindkeys and gnome-keybinding-properties or even CSM from compiz, they do a good job.




1:
Style gnome-panel StaysOnBottom, GNOMEIgnoreHints

3:This one is trickier. Define a new Iconify function to also place the icon on a higher layer.


DestroyFunc IconifyAndChangeLayer
AddToFunc IconifyAndChangeLayer
+ I Iconify $@
+ I ThisWindow (!Iconic) Layer default
+ I ThisWindow (Iconic) Layer 0 6


No.1 does not work, I can still see the window borders around my top and bottom gnome panel and they could be dragged anywhere. No.2 works. No.3 works but can I set how many pixels of space to leave out and also if you don't mind explain what each line of that code does?

Here's No.4, currently when I alt+left mouse click and release mouse click, the iconified window starts to drag, then I click somewhere and it will stop drag. What I want is on alt+left mouse press, iconified windows drag while mouse is still down (with/without alt still pressed), it drags, until i mouse release and it undrags. Like how things drag and drop nowadays.



I have attached my screenshot thumbnail config, so that you can have icons that are screenshots of the actual window, like Compiz (but not as good).
Ahh this is what people want to see nowadays with 3D desktop environments don't they? But does it make you identify your window better/quicker? Don't you think windows look pretty much the same when they are scaled smaller? All I see is lotsa white, and have to push my head forward a bit to see what window that is. I think it takes a little longer to identify the application window than just the application's icon.

You can definitely differentiate a Firefox icon from Gaim icon or any icons. But problem occurs when you have 2 nautilus windows opened, something must be there to differentiate from both of them, maybe numbers to represent the which was opened 1st or what name of folder currently opened, or both, whatever. It probably sounds like im describing our current window list but, it is so boring and uncustomizable. The icons are too small, too many words, take so much space, can't reorder window-list and no keyboard button interaction.

Window list and alt+tab handles switching between windows but why don't they both work together? They are like 2 different programs doing the same thing the same time, it's redundant! You press alt+tab which essentially opens ANOTHER window list in the middle of your screen with different order of icon appearance, and changes each time you press alt+tab. Why doesn't alt+tab have better integration with the window list which is already right in front of us. Our current window list and alt+tab is another thing which annoys me.

jpkotta
September 20th, 2006, 08:55 PM
Since it is just that one text file which you modify to do all the configuration, im sure somebody could make a GUI with checkboxes and input fields, and behind the scenes, it is simply writing lines of code to ~/.fvwm/config when checkboxes get ticked.

For example/imaginary purposes:
I run 'fvwm-keyconfig'
Window pops up
There are lists of options with checkboxes or input fields next to them
If you tick the checkbox, "Minimize window when 1st button from left of title bar is pressed"
Then you press 'apply/ok', fvwm-keyconfig will simply write "Mouse 1 1 A Delete" to ~/.fvwm/config

Now I'm sure the above example is not the best way to configure keybindings. Look at xbindkeys and gnome-keybinding-properties or even CSM from compiz, they do a good job.

There are GUIs written, and they work well. But they can't do it all, and probably never will. To really get the full power, you have to do it by hand. With a null config (fvwm -f /dev/null), the default menu has an "fvwm config" option. That will automatically generate a config for you give some options you decide with checkboxes and such. Then it has a few configuration dialogs when you're actually using the config. But it is just scratching the surface.



No.1 does not work, I can still see the window borders around my top and bottom gnome panel and they could be dragged anywhere. No.2 works. No.3 works but can I set how many pixels of space to leave out and also if you don't mind explain what each line of that code does?


Sorry, I just grepped on gnome in my config. This will fix it.

Style panel Sticky, NoTitle, WindowListSkip, CirculateSkip

The man page will explain things better than me. I like to use the html version on fvwm.org.

http://www.fvwm.org/documentation/manpages/unstable/



Here's No.4, currently when I alt+left mouse click and release mouse click, the iconified window starts to drag, then I click somewhere and it will stop drag. What I want is on alt+left mouse press, iconified windows drag while mouse is still down (with/without alt still pressed), it drags, until i mouse release and it undrags. Like how things drag and drop nowadays.


This is how I move my icons. The part that is relevant for you is the "+ M Move". The Move command can be unintuitive. Basically, you make a function that does a Move when you drag, then bind that function to the mouse. Before, you (probably) bound Move directly to the mouse, which is the same as using "+ I Move" in the function.



DestroyFunc MoveOrMaximize
AddToFunc MoveOrMaximize
+ I Raise
+ M Move
+ D ThisWindow (Iconic) Maximize True
+ D TestRc (NoMatch) Maximize 100 100
+ D Iconify False

Mouse 1 I N MoveOrMaximize




Ahh this is what people want to see nowadays with 3D desktop environments don't they? But does it make you identify your window better/quicker? Don't you think windows look pretty much the same when they are scaled smaller? All I see is lotsa white, and have to push my head forward a bit to see what window that is. I think it takes a little longer to identify the application window than just the application's icon.

You can definitely differentiate a Firefox icon from Gaim icon or any icons. But problem occurs when you have 2 nautilus windows opened, something must be there to differentiate from both of them, maybe numbers to represent the which was opened 1st or what name of folder currently opened, or both, whatever. It probably sounds like im describing our current window list but, it is so boring and uncustomizable. The icons are too small, too many words, take so much space, can't reorder window-list and no keyboard button interaction.

Window list and alt+tab handles switching between windows but why don't they both work together? They are like 2 different programs doing the same thing the same time, it's redundant! You press alt+tab which essentially opens ANOTHER window list in the middle of your screen with different order of icon appearance, and changes each time you press alt+tab. Why doesn't alt+tab have better integration with the window list which is already right in front of us. Our current window list and alt+tab is another thing which annoys me.

Well, I think it looks cool, and I usually don't iconify windows anyway. Icons are easier to differentiate between different applications, screenshots are easier to differentiate between the same application. I've found that my applications usually look different enough that I don't need the icon. Some people have a screenshot function that draws the icon on top of the screenshot for a compromise.

In FVWM you can have a permanent winlist (what you're calling alt-tab menu) that works like a taskbar (what you're calling a window list) via the FvwmWinList module. I usually never use the winlist (alt-tab menu); instead I have bindings to go to the previous window (repeated invocations toggle between 2 windows) and the next window (repeated invocations go through the all of the windows on a page). It works well if the number of windows on a page is <= 5.

robin.com.au
September 30th, 2006, 10:10 PM
Sorry, I'm gonna let this thread die for a while. I've failed to allow the people who read this thread to 'easily' understand what I'm trying to say. There are too many misconceptions and misinterperatation. So the only way for me to make you all 'see' is to make you actually 'see' my 'ideal' window manager in action, through a Flash presentation. With that, people can easily compare it to their current one and see things clearer.

I wanted to spend this whole week doing it but still have not started. Now that I have a much powerful laptop, I've been playing with KDE and loving it. Can't wait for KDE4. Can't wait for XFCE4.4 too. Currently nothing from GNOME really excites me though.

Since my beginning with Ubuntu, until now, I've switched from GNOME, to XFCE, to KDE, then back to XFCE. That was with my 5 year old computer.

Now with my new Core Duo laptop, I've enjoyed GNOME, then mix it with XFCE, and now i'm using KDE. Everything just works, with KDE. But just last year, with my old computer running KDE, everything just dies, and has a more complex interface, I thought. I now have a different perspective towards KDE.

So my enjoyment with KDE and its wonderful apps has put my mind off our inefficient window managers for a while.

Eventually I will get the Flash presentation done, and you can all finally see. That will be my next unscheduled post.

ago
October 1st, 2006, 12:57 AM
Well I have already built the core functionality and it works with a simulated desktop in wxwindows (using MDI). To make it work on a real desktop I need hooks into X/WM. In particular I need to:

* exactly get and set the size/position of windows including the border added by the WM (last bit is tricky)

* get callbacks for move/resize events. I actually need to know when a window starts being dragged around, and when it is dropped in its final position (which is more complicated).

* get size of usable desktop, excluding panels & co.

* get list of dockable windows

Other than that the rest is ready. I was thinking of using xlib directly and/or wmctrl and/or wnck (which is fairly complete except for get/set geometry), but I doubt it will be possible to avoid some wrappers around the actual WM. If there is an X/EWMH/WNCK expert, a few hints would be more than welcome.

jpkotta
October 5th, 2006, 05:35 PM
ago, I found a mention of this as I was rummaging through my old email. It seems to be almost what you're after (although not WM-independent). I'm refering to the ProxyGroups.

http://www.imonk.com/baboon/FvwmProxy/

ago
October 5th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Thanks, I'll look at the code.

This is the status report

At the moment I am using python binding for wnck and xlib. There was a patch introduced in edgy to allow to set_geometry within wnck. Unfortunately not all WM are fully ewmh compliant (neither metacity, nor xfwm). But it seems to work on openbox (on edgy).

The remaining problem so far is estimating the size of free desktop (net of panels) and the size of the window borders added by the WM. wnck/xlib do not seem to provide any useful method. I am using a dirty hack to estimate both. Last thing to address is how to detect when a window is "dragged" and when it is "dropped"...

As soon as I manage to get a few hours to fully dedicate to that I might have something you can see. It will buggy and full of tricks but should work (+/-).

At least I choose the name: mondrian

Endolith
August 26th, 2007, 06:43 PM
I would really like to see some tiling features and other window management functions built into GNOME. People say "you need to find a WM that you like", but that's unrealistic. The ultra-nerdy WMs require you to do a lot of configuration by hand, which is just impractical. Yet the easy to use WMs don't provide much functionality. I'd rather see some weaker variants of that functionality built into the low learning curve WMs like GNOME.

Also, it would be best if things could be done with the mouse, rather than heavily emphasizing the keyboard. Keyboard shortcuts should be possible, but not necessary for beginning users. Usability is about accomplishing tasks. There should be inefficient, but intuitive and forgiving methods for something you'll only do once, and less intuitive, but highly efficient methods for things you will do over and over again. Both methods should be present. (Though ideally, the desktop itself would help you out and turn everyone into a power user over time. Say you type a command into the run dialog. That's fine if you're only running that command once. But if you type it more than a few times, the desktop helps you out by popping up an unobtrusive notification balloon asking if you'd like to create a shortcut for that command so you don't have to type it in each time. Or say you use a command many times a day, so it asks you if you'd like to give it a permanent keyboard shortcut to save time. Or you resize two windows by manually moving their edges so they are just touching each other, and it pops up a balloon like: "It looks like you're trying to tile two windows. Would you like to learn a faster way to do the same thing?")

Some improvements to the WM I'm imagining:

Some type of Expose feature should be built into the WM. Now a lot of people have talked about Expose in this thread but are completely missing the point:


Expose is for switching between windows.
Tiling is for using more than one window at the same time.


Apparently there are people out there who have used Expose but have never tiled windows. :-)

I think an Expose function should be built in, but it should also be a tool you can use to do more advanced functions with multiple windows:

For instance, in the regular Expose, you press some key combination to see thumbnails of all the windows at once, right? Then you click one, and it is brought to the foreground. This is good and a fast way to switch between them visually.

What would also be good is if you could click more than one of the thumbnails, and have them all brought to the foreground and resized so they don't overlap each other. This would turn Expose into more of a "meta-view" of the windows.

I would like to see "frames" built into the workspace, and you could maximize a window into a certain frame. Perhaps when you click the maximize button once, it maximizes to the entire screen, but you could also click the maximize button and hold it down, and a ghost image of the frames would appears, and you can then drag the window into one of those frames to maximize it within that frame. Or maybe a ctrl+drag of the title bar would do the same thing. Or maybe the thumbnail Expose meta-view could also be used to fit windows into frames by dragging them.

After windows are in frames, you can resize the frame itself, and all windows would resize at once. The "frame" and "dock" functionality is similar, and should be combined into one feature.

So then there's Ion's use of tabs. Multiple apps can be put inside the same frame, and are chosen between with tabs. This is useful, though it would have to be intuitive to be built into GNOME.

See these for opinions on multiple document interfaces and tabs:

http://mystilleef.blogspot.com/2006/10/no-tabs-why.html
http://mystilleef.blogspot.com/2007/05/on-tabs-again.html

I think the multiple-document interface, single-document interface, and tabbed document interface are arbitrary distinctions that should be abstracted and made to work at the same time in the same programs.

urukrama
August 26th, 2007, 10:22 PM
If you want something like expose, try skippy. It is in the repos.

robin.com.au
August 27th, 2007, 01:40 PM
The window manager should be the one handling tabs, not the application.

Expose 'randomly' and 'temporarily' 'tiles' the windows. No control. Expose is not the answer.

With current window managers, too much time is wasted on moving, resizing, minimizing, maximizing. These mundane tasks do nothing with productivity. They can even be seen as unneccessary annoyances. While you waste your time with wobbly windows, you could have used the mouse for more useful things like, highlighting, drag&drop (copy/cut/paste), scrolling, etc.

I still think ion3 is the most efficient way to handle windows. Too bad it isn't newbie friendly, does not have an easy way to assign keyboard shortcuts, lack of GUI, not pretty, and mainly that it is soooo not pretty, we are all spolit with Compiz's eye candy goodness. On top of all, the ion3 author has lost interest.

No point talking about it really (although I don't know why I feel compelled to talk about it anyway), not everyone understands what I'm talking about. One day, I'll SHOW you what I mean, I'll create a Flash presentation, maybe it wil blow people away, thinking "Oh my god! it makes so much sense!! ". Or one day, if I can afford it, I'll pay someone to write my 'ideal window manager' for me.

Dream dream dream...
For dog sakes, it's only a window manager!!!

Endolith
August 27th, 2007, 02:11 PM
The window manager should be the one handling tabs, not the application.

Agreed. But the way I'm imagining it, Firefox would still look exactly the same, with a shared menu bar and tabs generated by the window manager beneath it.


Expose 'randomly' and 'temporarily' 'tiles' the windows. No control. Expose is not the answer.

Not the answer to what? Depends what the question is. :-)


With current window managers, too much time is wasted on moving, resizing, minimizing, maximizing. These mundane tasks do nothing with productivity. They can even be seen as unneccessary annoyances. While you waste your time with wobbly windows, you could have used the mouse for more useful things like, highlighting, drag&drop (copy/cut/paste), scrolling, etc.

Agreed 100000%. Eye candy can be useful (animations allowing the eye to keep track of movement of windows, etc.) but wobbly windows and things going up in flames are just stupid.


I still think ion3 is the most efficient way to handle windows. Too bad it isn't newbie friendly,

There's no reason it couldn't be.

lituus
August 29th, 2007, 07:10 PM
ion3 & symphony/mezzo are interesting but I do not find them suitable for my needs.

the tiling concept is useful in any window manager, as an option

windowsXP has a tiling system that is a bit limited but still available. just right-click on the taskbar & select Tile Windows vertically/horizontally. it isn't very smart in tiling but does a commendable job, in that it is just as efficient as Expose. rt-clicking on the taskbar again allows you to undo tiling. while Expose is a temporary view, XP's window-manager actually resizes the windows.

as far as Flip3D goes, it looks good, but imo is just as useless as Expose. The cascade windows option in XP (rt.click taskbar again) is just as efficient/useless, with a lot less demanding min. hrdwr req.s

now, i use both XP & Ubuntu regularly, and I think both are more efficient than Vista. OS X is a different thing and looks good (albeit a bit silly), but is a bit clunky & restrictive.

as far as CompizFusion like eye-candy goes, I wish that they'd make two different packages. One with minimal animations, fast-rendering optimized window-management and the other with all the non-essential, not-for-efficiency "fun" stuff like firepaint.

good discussion this, but please be more understanding of the inertia that is attached to the general, casual computer-user's skillset & mindset

BTW, ago, brilliant work you guys are doing with Wubi/Lubi/Mubi. I believe this project will increase Ubuntu install-base greatly. This and that Dell-preinstalling-Ubuntu thing.

salsafyren
August 29th, 2007, 07:52 PM
I think the theory behind the OLPC is good: full screen Windows and then you can switch between those.

I don't it is necessary to have minimized windows and non-fullscreen windows except for drag-n-drag.

All this work going to managing windows is too much.

If we don't innovate in window managing, the online desktop (using a FULLSCREEN browser) will be a norm because people want to get easily to their data with a minimum a fuzz.

I applaud anyone who wants to something about it. Gnome really ought to invest more in this.

Ptero-4
February 22nd, 2008, 11:03 PM
I very much prefer my Xfce 4.4.x + compiz-fusion + AWN (with a nice OSX-like setup and theme) any day to this crappy "productive" WM's like ion3.

P.S: I'm gonna be holding to that setup as long as I can and if it's no longer possible to make it look like the MacOS (either Xfce/compiz-fusion/AWN gets axed or changes are made to Xfce that makes it unable to be Mac-like, like they did to KDE in KDE4), someone at M$ (Ballmer) is gonna become a jigsaw puzzle.

benqbasic
February 23rd, 2008, 12:38 AM
Have Non of you heard of PEKWM.
It will do everything you want and fit inside a DE like kde gnome or xfce.
It is the perfect mediam.
I have consistantly used pekwm. Its a bit like distrobutions to me i may try other distros but i keen comming back to archlinux or ubuntu depending on the computer and what its being used for.

Pekwm is an amazing desktop and deserves alot lot more attention than it gets.

Keep it up pekwm developers.