[18.04] Unity vs Gnome 3 - Vertical space

[alainb06]

Hello all,

the goal here is not to rekindle the old debate Unity vs Other D.E., but to speak of something I would not like to loose leaving Unity: vertical space.

The debate Unity vs Others was very subjective, the haters having no objective fact on the matter. Here is an objective fact in favour of Unity, with some images it's more clear:

Unity
http://xslt2.0.free.fr/images/16_04_Unity_800.png

Gnome
http://xslt2.0.free.fr/images/18_04_Gnome_800.png

Side by side (red zone is the "lost" area with Gnome)
http://xslt2.0.free.fr/images/16_18_Comp_800.png

That is only an example with Firefox, but Unity does that for (almost) every application.

The factual issue
So, since a few years ago, someone decided screen MUST have the ratio 16/9, and since everyone followed that, "vertical space" became a scarce resource.
To fight that, Unity did a nice thing: put the application menu in the title bar of the application, and also when the application is maximised, merge the title bar with the top panel.

By combining these two tricks, you save "two bars" and as can be seen in the illustration, with firefox as example, the benefit is 57 pixels.
That represents more than 5% of space in HD (1920x1080) and around 7.5% on my small 14" at work with its 1366x768 definition.

So using Gnome 3-as is would be a big regression screen-wise.

The research so far
With the help of fellow French Ubunteros (see here: https://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/viewtopic.php?id=2025479), we have established that Unity is unique as a D.E. for this maximised use of vertical space.

Other D.E. can more or less approach that, but they need some add-ons/extensions.

For Gnome there is Unite that works with title bars... but does nothing with menus. That is half the solution then. Instead of "losing" 2 bars, you loose only 1!

There is also a Gnome Extension: Global App Menu that looks to do something on menus, but it is clearly marked "experimental" and there is a ticket on its GitHub about the work possibly be discontinued.

From what I have read, it is indeed not an easy task to do what Unity started. Indeed, title bars are exposed to the D.E. for several reasons: close/minimise/maximise buttons, grab, etc... Then D.E. extensions can easily manipulate those title bars, like merging it to top panel when relevant.
But the menu bar belongs to the application space and is generally handled by the U.I. toolkit (GTK for Gnome). Hence, without the cooperation of the application itself or a heavy hack on the toolkit, moving the app menu out is a hard task!

Another alternative that was flagged is Ubuntu Mate with Mutiny and some other extensions. Same again, Gnome 2 that is still used for Mate cannot by itself do the job. The standard layout is even worse in Mate since on top of all those bars clutter, you get an additional horizontal bar with the task bar.

We have also established that menus are bad... and I agree with that, Unity eliminated them system wide, replacing them with icons (like on your phone!), recent lists, and natural search.

But still, menus is the way 98% of applications still work, and for the transition we are still used to them.
Firefox understanding that tried to remove the menu, and that was also for the sake of saving "vertical space". So that might not have been a good example to illustrate this issue with firefox that already made steps in the right direction, independently of the D.E.
So, bear in mind again the illustration was only an example, and I am not searching a firefox-only solution, but a system-wide one!


Your advise?

So the question is, what is your advise, to continue enjoying the maximum possible "vertical space" and avoid cluttered useless horizontal bars?

- 18.04 with Unity?
- 18.04 Gnome 3 + extensions? (which ones?)
- 18.04 Mate + extensions?
- Other D.E. we don't know of and that would do the trick out of the box?


Thanks in advance to all!

[Frogs Hair]

The Unity session is available with 18.04. Ubuntu Budgie has a Unity based global menu applet available as well.

[alainb06]

Hi Frogs Hair, and thanks.

Indeed, Unity is available, that is the first alternative I am quoting under my quest for advise!

As for "Global app menu", sorry for the confusion. This extension does NOT add a "Global Menu" à la W$, which I profoundly dislike!
I found it so much better having recents apps/dock, as it is with Unity or Gnome 3 "activities".

What "Global app menu" does is instead gets the menu bar out of any application and displays it in the title bar of that application or instead in the top panel when the application is maximised. That is precisely the feature I am looking to find... but possibly with an extension that is not "experimental/discontinued"!

Sorry again for the confusion, I didn't pick that confusing extenstion name!

As for Budgie, apart precisely from that awful "Global Menu" (which is something I absolutely don't want at all!) it look the nicest of all "supported" flavours.

[cruzer001]

Vertical space is also a pet peeve of mine and not liking Unity, I go to great lengths to change the individual apps.

Removing the title bar completely is the only system wide setting I have found.

I run gnome (not ubuntu gnome, but just gnome) which comes with a top and bottom panel and have consolidated that to one top panel and small in size (24 pix).

No toolbars in apps when I can. FireFox toolbar has been change to a single icon and moved to the address bar. Terminal toolbar has been removed and access now by right click. The list goes on and on.

Of course this is not an issue on my desktop, its got a ton of space. Just my laptop that I can't stand the wasted space.

[alainb06]

Thanks Cruzer, I see I'm not alone seeking at using efficiently that scarce "vertical space"!

The positive side of Unity is that it does globally what you have to do application by application, so I'd rather stick with a global solution as long as possible!

[Frogs Hair]

As for "Global app menu", sorry for the confusion. This extension does NOT add a "Global Menu" à la W$, which I profoundly dislike!
I found it so much better having recents apps/dock, as it is with Unity or Gnome 3 "activities".


This is not an extension in Budgie, but a Unity based panel applet with extended or compact mode for smaller monitors. I use compact mode on a laptop.

[alainb06]

Oh... that looks interesting and promising, Frogs Hair!

The left-topmost button is replaced by a search/recent apps widget as in Unity/Gnome 3-activities, or does it stays a "System wide Menu" as in Gnome 2/W$

Apparently (seen from your screenshot) it changes the orientation of the application menu that becomes vertical, and displayed when clicked only, instead of being an horizontal menu/always visible. Confusing, but I guess still usable.

Could you please:
- do a screenshot with the browser windows "maximised", as in my screenshots, so that I see what is does
- give the exact name of the extension, so that I add it when I get a try at Budgie.

[cruzer001]

This is not an extension in Budgie, but a Unity based panel applet with extended or compact mode for smaller monitors. I use compact mode on a laptop.
That is rather nice and compact. I wonder if there is a gnome extension that would do the same thing.

[Frogs Hair]

Apparently (seen from your screenshot) it changes the orientation of the application menu that becomes vertical, and displayed when clicked only, instead of being an horizontal menu/always visible. Confusing, but I guess still usable.

As I wrote it can be extended as well.

[monkeybrain20122]

My suggestions:

18.04 with unity but wait a month or two. It is running great here. Much smoother than gnome shell. It is very easy to switch. But it would help the maintainers and devs if there are more users. You can follow it here https://community.ubuntu.com/c/desktop/ubuntu-unity-dev

For now stick to 16.04

[alainb06]

Yes Monkeybrain20122, that is possibly the simplest.

I've tried it, it looks fine, although applications like VLC are not localised... weird but possibly not related to Unity.

I always dual boot LTS N-1 / LTS N, and always wait some time to make LTS N my main.

[kerry_s]

i use unite extension to get everything back to the top.
https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1287/unite/
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[monkeybrain20122]

Yes Monkeybrain20122, that is possibly the simplest.

I've tried it, it looks fine, although applications like VLC are not localised... weird but possibly not related to Unity.

I always dual boot LTS N-1 / LTS N, and always wait some time to make LTS N my main.

That is probably because you install vlc from the software center, it is a snap package. To get the 'normal' (apt) package either use the command

sudo apt install vlc

or use synaptic.

The software center appears to have the policy of pushing snap packages also it listings are very small comparing to what you would find in synaptic.

[alainb06]

Thanks Kerry.

But in fact you don't (get everything back to the top)!

That has been establish on the French thread.

Unite work only for "Title bar", not for the "menus"!.. So it solves half the issue.

It happens, as I said in my first post, that Firefox already ditched the menus (they are counter intuitive) so in your image you show a Firefox without menu where the title bar has been merged with top panel (what Unite does).

If you where to use any other application, like say simply the Terminal, and have that maximised, you would see "Gnome Terminal" (or whatever) on the top panel, then a bar with the terminal menu: "Terminal / File / Edit / etc..."

What Unity does best is that it completely removes the "Gnome Terminal" label (who need it when it is full screen!) and replace it with the menu in the top panel, so that you save that bar also on top of the title bar.

So yes, Unite is probably nice, it has the positive side to be supported an not experimental (unlike Global App Menu) but solves only half of the issue unfortunately.

... unless you show us with a screenshot of a full screen terminal with terminal's menu on the top panel that we were wrong... but indeed there is absolutely no mention in the page of this extension that it does anything with menus!

[alainb06]

That is probably because you install vlc from the software center, it is a snap package. To get the 'normal' (apt) package either use the command

Wow, thanks a lot for that!

I usually do
sudo apt-get install whatever because I find it quicker than playing with the mouse and trying to figure where to click... and the terminal is anyway one of the first thing I open in a session.

But true this time I tried the Software Center... in 14.04, Software Center was desperately slow, it improved a bit in 16.04 and wanted to test that in 18.04

But I'll unsintall it the same way and do the command line method again. I would have found that in the end, but you saved me probably several hours searching why.

Thanks again!

[kerry_s]

yeah, i don't have menu enabled in terminal preferences.
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i forgot to mention, i'm using devilspie2 to do the maximizing of the apps i want maximized.
here's what unite preferences looks like:
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[alainb06]

Yes Kerry!

You are sort of "cheating". Indeed you noticed that vertical space is a scarce resource, and same as Cruzer001 at post #4 (https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2390681&p=13761934#post13761934) you removed menus one by one when the application allows it.

Sure that works too, but as I said, I'd prefer a "global" solution rather than doing that for each and every application... when it is ever possible!

Also you get to loose the menu which is still useful (true that I almost never use it with the terminal since I know my keyboard shortcuts) and get instead the window title which is sort of useless here!

But Unite would be my second solution if "the community" falls too much behind supporting Unity 7.

[kerry_s]

i have seen an extension that does that, but i don't remember the name & never tested it with unite.

good luck on the hunt.

just for future knowledge: ubuntu-mate has the old netbook type setting in mate tweak for more screen space, if you ever find yourself that way. it has that menu applet your looking for.

[alainb06]

You mean this extension: https://github.com/lestcape/Gnome-Global-AppMenu (the one I am referring to)

The extension (1st line) is poorly named. It does NOT display a "Global Menu" as in "System Wide Menu" like we had in Gnome 2 or any W$ release. This is a feature I absolutely don't want. The "Global Menu" (top left button) in Mate is that. A copy of the W$ Seven "Start" menu.

So yes, Mate shows in the "flavours" gallery an image with Mutiny and some other components like a dock that makes it look like Unity... but then goes in the wrong direction displaying that "Global/Sytem Menu" à la Gnome 2/W$

Mate + Mutiny + Dock indeed does the job of pulling the menu of an app in the top panel, but:
- it does also keep the window title in front of the menu which looks weird and completely wrong
- it has this "Global/System menu" that I profoundly dislike (I would prefer to use Gnome Shell with Activities and global natural search).

But true, that does "sort of" do the job, and is probably amongst the acceptable solutions!

[kerry_s]

in mate there applets, so you can move/remove as you please to get that look your after.

i'm sure what you want can be done in gnome-shell, it's just nobody has done it or wants to do it enough to create an extension.
maybe a polite request to the unite extension developer to add that feature?

[alainb06]

Sure Kerry, I'll do that request.

But look here: https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/1250/gnome-global-application-menu/

The trouble, as I explained in the first post, is that it is a different order of magnitude to work with the Window Title and with the Application Menu bar.

The Window title is exposed to the D.E. (Desktop Environment) because the D.E. needs to be able to minimise, maximise, close, drag, etc... all application windows.
So, doing an extension like Unite that plays with the Window Title is quite "easy" (as long as you have understood how this is exposed).

But when you want to work with menu, this is a very different story! Menu need not be exposed to the D.E. because it is the "internal business" for each application to design its own user interface and how users interacts with it. So drawing menu is generally functions provided by the toolkit you have used to code the application, which for Gnome applications is GTK (you have others like QT).
Then, grabbing that menu inside the "private property" of the application requires the application cooperation and some hack on the toolkit. That is why, as you see with Gnome Global-AppMenu, you need to install unity-gtk-module to make it work. This is probably part of the "hack"...

Hence, the request to Unite to also support "menu" has a huge chance to be refused since it is a completely different level of involvement in the application territory. It had some chance of success when Canonical was pushing app developers to help, but I fear it will be less successful if the question is asked by a team developing an obscure extension!

[monkeybrain20122]

Instead of using a bunch of addons to hack gs to get unity features that work out of the box why not just use unity?

Upstream intends GS windows to have fat ugly bars, should respect that.

[alainb06]

Instead of using a bunch of addons to hack gs to get unity features that work out of the box why not just use unity?

Upstream intends GS windows to have fat ugly bars, should respect that.

Indeed, that is my first choice and what I started to test!

Also this thread, and the one on the French forum sort of proves there is no serious alternative to this "vertical space" issue, because as you say, piling extensions on top of GS to make those "fat ugly bars" disappear does not look such a great idea.

Obviously, I also have a lot of respect for those who love the fat ugly bars, and like having to madly use the vertical scroll because they have only 50% of the vertical space to display useful application data! That's probably for them that they invented the mouse wheel...

My fear is that some day in the future the "community" will fall behind properly supporting Unity and that I'll have to make do with even fatter and uglier horizontal bars... let's hope it's just a fear.

[monkeybrain20122]

My fear is that some day in the future the "community" will fall behind properly supporting Unity and that I'll have to make do with even fatter and uglier horizontal bars... let's hope it's just a fear.

I think there is a better chance for unity to continue being maintained (and there are talks about development and updates and I don't mean unity 8) if there are users. If Mate could go so far I can't see why unity can't . unity needs users.

[alainb06]

Thanks Monkeybrain, having established that no other D.E. gives you, out of the box, as much "vertical space" as Unity does, you gave me another reason to continue with the first option I had in mind which is: 18.04 with Unity!

[lestcape]

Good explanations... This is what user don't understand. A global menu can not be done without the toolkit support and the support of the developer of the applications. So, to really work, you need a big hack. In gnome shell an extension is a js code, where is not possible hack a toolkit or an specific application. So, one thing is create an extension to render a menu and another is hack a toolkit to export the menu. Gnome-Global-Menu is just the part of render the menu in the shell representation.

[veedwood]

I absolutely agree - fighting the upstream philosophy seems like a sisyphean struggle.
I was absolutely gutted when I saw the new default Gnome interface for Ubuntu.
And it really surprises me that the outcry for the loss of vertical space is so small. To me it's a dealbreaker.
Looks like I'll be joining the crowd sticking with Unity on 18.04.

[davidboom]

Looks like I'll be joining the crowd sticking with Unity on 18.04.


I too will probably be doing this. I am so disappointed with the decision to go with GNOME solely for 18.04.


I would simply like to be able to right click on a dock icon and get a list of all the windows from that program without having to click 'All Windows'.


Global menu gone is a massive one for me.


+ the HUD... :(


I feel a little in limbo as I want to use the latest version of Ubuntu, but have to put all my faith in Unity remaining up to date, I am keeping a close eye on the Unity forum over on the ubuntu community.


I have looked into Ubuntu Mate, yes it has a HUD and global menus, but it's just not the same as 16.04! It just doesn't feel as polished. Ubuntu Budgie is really nice but no global menu.