Dual Boot Ubuntu 14 with added Budgie stalls in installation.

[Richard_York]

I'm playing with an old Toshiba laptop (maybe 10 yrs old) which I've been given, hopefully learning by mistakes before messing up a dual-boot of adding Ubuntu 16 or 17 to existing Windows10 on our new 2nd hand desktop, only 5 years old.

The Toshiba installed Ubuntu 14.04 quite happily. I can't get it to accept 16, it gets as far as the box where you fill in your username, when it refuses to respond to any entry, despite having accepted the correct keyboard identification.

So I tried instead adding "Budgie remix" along with 14.04, for the sake of trying a dual boot installation, see how it works out.

It's accepted everything, copied lots of files, got as far as "configuring target system", when the progress line has been stuck under the "e" of "system" for about two hours now.
It's not a very powerful computer. I can't quote figures, with apologies, as it's not letting me look at anything other than the installation screen and the revolving disk symbol just now, but I'm wondering if it's simply asking too much for it to do both things at once, so I should accept it's not going to handle it, or whether to leave it longer.

Thanks for any help.

[kansasnoob]

My best guess is that the 16.04 kernel is not playing well with that hardware. If you can boot into Ubuntu 14.04 would you please post the output of:


uname -a

That will show us which kernel version you have running in 14.04. It could vary depending on which point release iso was used for installation. If it was the 14.04.5 iso then you should have the 16.04 kernel and X-stack already running, and if that's the case you may have better results using the 16.04.1 iso instead of 16.04.2 or 16.04.3. I know it gets confusing but the LTS versions have point releases that use HWE:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack

That's at least a start so we can try to narrow this down. It may also help to have more detailed info about the exact model of laptop if you have that available. The following command will also provide detailed hardware info:


sudo lshw

[Richard_York]

Thanks, and you're right, it is confusing :-)
"uname -a" gives me: Linux richard-Satellite-Pro-A300 4.4.0-31-generic #50~14.04.1-Ubuntu SMP Wed Jul 13 01:06:37 UTC 2016 i686 i686 i686 GNU/Linux

I hope I've copied this by eye correctly! (Using a different laptop to type this). I trust this tells you a lot more than it tells me.

"sudo lshw" gives me... wow, a seriously long amount of information, I need to switch computers and copy & paste to get this to you. Back soon. I have to say that the output at this point is well beyond my comprehension!

[Richard_York]

... "sudo lshw" gives:
richard-satellite-pro-a300
description: Notebook
product: Satellite Pro A300 ()
vendor: TOSHIBA
version: PSAJ1E-01200XEN
serial: 58179811W
width: 32 bits
capabilities: smbios-2.4 dmi-2.4 smp-1.4 smp
configuration: administrator_password=disabled boot=oem-specific chassis=notebook cpus=2 frontpanel_password=unknown keyboard_password=unknown power-on_password=disabled uuid=C0C1A0B2-20F5-DB11-8C79-001E6862B9C8
*-core
description: Motherboard
product: Satellite Pro A300
vendor: TOSHIBA
physical id: 0
version: Not Applicable
serial: 58179811W
*-firmware
description: BIOS
vendor: TOSHIBA
physical id: 0
version: V4.20
date: 01/05/2009
size: 100KiB
capacity: 960KiB
capabilities: isa pci pcmcia pnp upgrade shadowing escd cdboot acpi usb biosbootspecification
*-cpu:0
description: CPU
product: Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual CPU T2370 @ 1.73GHz
vendor: Intel Corp.
physical id: 4
bus info: cpu@0
version: 6.15.13
serial: 0000-06FD-0000-0000-0000-0000
slot: U2E1
size: 800MHz
capacity: 4096MHz
width: 64 bits
clock: 200MHz
capabilities: boot fpu fpu_exception wp vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe nx x86-64 constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts aperfmperf pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm lahf_lm dtherm cpufreq
configuration: id=1
*-cache:0
description: L1 cache
physical id: 5
slot: L1 Cache
size: 64KiB
capacity: 64KiB
capabilities: asynchronous internal write-back
*-cache:1
description: L2 cache
physical id: 6
slot: L2 Cache
size: 1MiB
capacity: 4MiB
capabilities: burst internal write-back
*-logicalcpu:0
description: Logical CPU
physical id: 1.1
width: 64 bits
capabilities: logical
*-logicalcpu:1
description: Logical CPU
physical id: 1.2
width: 64 bits
capabilities: logical
*-memory
description: System Memory
physical id: c
slot: System board or motherboard
size: 2GiB
*-bank:0
description: SODIMM DDR2 Synchronous 533 MHz (1.9 ns)
product: SODIMM000
vendor: Mfg 0
physical id: 0
serial: 1234-B0
slot: M1
size: 1GiB
width: 64 bits
clock: 533MHz (1.9ns)
*-bank:1
description: SODIMM DDR2 Synchronous 533 MHz (1.9 ns)
product: SODIMM001
vendor: Mfg 1
physical id: 1
serial: 1234-B1
slot: M2
size: 1GiB
width: 64 bits
clock: 533MHz (1.9ns)
*-cpu:1
physical id: 1
bus info: cpu@1
version: 6.15.13
serial: 0000-06FD-0000-0000-0000-0000
size: 1067MHz
capacity: 1067MHz
capabilities: ht cpufreq
configuration: id=1
*-logicalcpu:0
description: Logical CPU
physical id: 1.1
capabilities: logical
*-logicalcpu:1
description: Logical CPU
physical id: 1.2
capabilities: logical
*-pci
description: Host bridge
product: Mobile PM965/GM965/GL960 Memory Controller Hub
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 100
bus info: pci@0000:00:00.0
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
configuration: driver=agpgart-intel
resources: irq:0
*-display:0
description: VGA compatible controller
product: Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller (primary)
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 2
bus info: pci@0000:00:02.0
version: 03
width: 64 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: msi pm vga_controller bus_master cap_list rom
configuration: driver=i915 latency=0
resources: irq:29 memory:f0000000-f00fffff memory:d0000000-dfffffff ioport:1800(size=8)
*-display:1 UNCLAIMED
description: Display controller
product: Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller (secondary)
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 2.1
bus info: pci@0000:00:02.1
version: 03
width: 64 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm bus_master cap_list
configuration: latency=0
resources: memory:f0100000-f01fffff
*-usb:0
description: USB controller
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI Controller #4
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1a
bus info: pci@0000:00:1a.0
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: uhci bus_master
configuration: driver=uhci_hcd latency=0
resources: irq:16 ioport:1820(size=32)
*-usb:1
description: USB controller
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI Controller #5
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1a.1
bus info: pci@0000:00:1a.1
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: uhci bus_master
configuration: driver=uhci_hcd latency=0
resources: irq:21 ioport:1840(size=32)
*-usb:2
description: USB controller
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB2 EHCI Controller #2
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1a.7
bus info: pci@0000:00:1a.7
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm debug ehci bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=ehci-pci latency=0
resources: irq:18 memory:f0604000-f06043ff
*-multimedia
description: Audio device
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) HD Audio Controller
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1b
bus info: pci@0000:00:1b.0
version: 03
width: 64 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm msi pciexpress bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=snd_hda_intel latency=0
resources: irq:28 memory:f0400000-f0403fff
*-pci:0
description: PCI bridge
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express Port 1
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1c
bus info: pci@0000:00:1c.0
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pci pciexpress msi pm normal_decode bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=pcieport
resources: irq:24 ioport:3000(size=4096) memory:80000000-801fffff ioport:80200000(size=2097152)
*-pci:1
description: PCI bridge
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express Port 2
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1c.1
bus info: pci@0000:00:1c.1
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pci pciexpress msi pm normal_decode bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=pcieport
resources: irq:25 ioport:2000(size=4096) memory:f0200000-f02fffff ioport:80400000(size=2097152)
*-network
description: Ethernet interface
product: 88E8072 PCI-E Gigabit Ethernet Controller
vendor: Marvell Technology Group Ltd.
physical id: 0
bus info: pci@0000:03:00.0
logical name: eth0
version: 16
serial: 00:1e:68:62:b9:c8
capacity: 1Gbit/s
width: 64 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm msi pciexpress bus_master cap_list rom ethernet physical tp 10bt 10bt-fd 100bt 100bt-fd 1000bt 1000bt-fd autonegotiation
configuration: autonegotiation=on broadcast=yes driver=sky2 driverversion=1.30 latency=0 link=no multicast=yes port=twisted pair
resources: irq:27 memory:f0200000-f0203fff ioport:2000(size=256) memory:f0220000-f023ffff
*-pci:2
description: PCI bridge
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) PCI Express Port 4
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1c.3
bus info: pci@0000:00:1c.3
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pci pciexpress msi pm normal_decode bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=pcieport
resources: irq:26 ioport:4000(size=4096) memory:80600000-807fffff ioport:80800000(size=2097152)
*-usb:3
description: USB controller
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI Controller #1
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1d
bus info: pci@0000:00:1d.0
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: uhci bus_master
configuration: driver=uhci_hcd latency=0
resources: irq:23 ioport:1860(size=32)
*-usb:4
description: USB controller
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI Controller #2
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1d.1
bus info: pci@0000:00:1d.1
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: uhci bus_master
configuration: driver=uhci_hcd latency=0
resources: irq:19 ioport:1880(size=32)
*-usb:5
description: USB controller
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB UHCI Controller #3
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1d.2
bus info: pci@0000:00:1d.2
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: uhci bus_master
configuration: driver=uhci_hcd latency=0
resources: irq:18 ioport:18a0(size=32)
*-usb:6
description: USB controller
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) USB2 EHCI Controller #1
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1d.7
bus info: pci@0000:00:1d.7
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm debug ehci bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=ehci-pci latency=0
resources: irq:23 memory:f0604400-f06047ff
*-pci:3
description: PCI bridge
product: 82801 Mobile PCI Bridge
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1e
bus info: pci@0000:00:1e.0
version: f3
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pci subtractive_decode bus_master cap_list
resources: memory:f0300000-f03fffff
*-firewire
description: FireWire (IEEE 1394)
product: Firewire (IEEE 1394)
vendor: O2 Micro, Inc.
physical id: 1
bus info: pci@0000:0a:01.0
version: 02
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm ohci bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=firewire_ohci latency=32
resources: irq:16 memory:f0301000-f0301fff memory:f0300000-f03007ff
*-generic
description: SD Host controller
product: Integrated MMC/SD Controller
vendor: O2 Micro, Inc.
physical id: 1.2
bus info: pci@0000:0a:01.2
version: 02
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: pm bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=sdhci-pci latency=32
resources: irq:16 memory:f0300800-f03008ff
*-storage UNCLAIMED
description: Mass storage controller
product: Integrated MS/xD Controller
vendor: O2 Micro, Inc.
physical id: 1.3
bus info: pci@0000:0a:01.3
version: 01
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: storage pm cap_list
configuration: latency=32
resources: memory:f0302000-f0302fff
*-isa
description: ISA bridge
product: 82801HM (ICH8M) LPC Interface Controller
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1f
bus info: pci@0000:00:1f.0
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: isa bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=lpc_ich latency=0
resources: irq:0
*-ide:0
description: IDE interface
product: 82801HM/HEM (ICH8M/ICH8M-E) IDE Controller
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1f.1
bus info: pci@0000:00:1f.1
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: ide bus_master
configuration: driver=ata_piix latency=0
resources: irq:19 ioport:1f0(size=8) ioport:3f6 ioport:170(size=8) ioport:376 ioport:1810(size=16)
*-ide:1
description: IDE interface
product: 82801HM/HEM (ICH8M/ICH8M-E) SATA Controller [IDE mode]
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1f.2
bus info: pci@0000:00:1f.2
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 66MHz
capabilities: ide pm bus_master cap_list
configuration: driver=ata_piix latency=0
resources: irq:19 ioport:1c00(size=8) ioport:18f4(size=4) ioport:18f8(size=8) ioport:18f0(size=4) ioport:18e0(size=16) ioport:18d0(size=16)
*-serial UNCLAIMED
description: SMBus
product: 82801H (ICH8 Family) SMBus Controller
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 1f.3
bus info: pci@0000:00:1f.3
version: 03
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
configuration: latency=0
resources: memory:80a00000-80a000ff ioport:1c20(size=32)
*-scsi:0
physical id: 2
logical name: scsi0
capabilities: emulated
*-cdrom
description: DVD-RAM writer
product: DVD-RAM UJ-850S
vendor: MATSHITA
physical id: 0.0.0
bus info: scsi@0:0.0.0
logical name: /dev/cdrom
logical name: /dev/sr0
version: 1.40
capabilities: removable audio cd-r cd-rw dvd dvd-r dvd-ram
configuration: ansiversion=5 status=nodisc
*-scsi:1
physical id: 3
logical name: scsi2
capabilities: emulated
*-disk
description: ATA Disk
product: TOSHIBA MK1646GS
vendor: Toshiba
physical id: 0.0.0
bus info: scsi@2:0.0.0
logical name: /dev/sda
version: 3M
serial: 489MCAJRT
size: 149GiB (160GB)
capabilities: partitioned partitioned:dos
configuration: ansiversion=5 sectorsize=512 signature=596563d6
*-volume:0
description: EXT4 volume
vendor: Linux
physical id: 1
bus info: scsi@2:0.0.0,1
logical name: /dev/sda1
logical name: /
version: 1.0
serial: 7b74366e-2da4-4c53-92b2-f53353c633a7
size: 75GiB
capacity: 75GiB
capabilities: primary bootable journaled extended_attributes large_files huge_files dir_nlink extents ext4 ext2 initialized
configuration: created=2018-02-09 21:12:56 filesystem=ext4 lastmountpoint=/ modified=2018-02-10 13:31:37 mount.fstype=ext4 mount.options=rw,relatime,errors=remount-ro,data=ordered mounted=2018-02-10 09:13:50 state=mounted
*-volume:1
description: Extended partition
physical id: 2
bus info: scsi@2:0.0.0,2
logical name: /dev/sda2
size: 73GiB
capacity: 73GiB
capabilities: primary extended partitioned partitioned:extended
*-logicalvolume:0
description: Linux swap / Solaris partition
physical id: 5
logical name: /dev/sda5
capacity: 2037MiB
capabilities: nofs
*-logicalvolume:1
description: Linux filesystem partition
physical id: 6
logical name: /dev/sda6
capacity: 71GiB
*-remoteaccess UNCLAIMED
vendor: Intel
physical id: 1
capabilities: inbound
*-network
description: Wireless interface
physical id: 2
bus info: usb@2:4
logical name: wlan0
serial: 00:16:44:b3:29:89
capabilities: ethernet physical wireless
configuration: broadcast=yes driver=rtl8187 driverversion=4.4.0-31-generic firmware=N/A ip=192.168.1.147 link=yes multicast=yes wireless=IEEE 802.11bg
richard@richard-Satellite-Pro-A300:~$ uname -a^C
richard@richard-Satellite-Pro-A300:~$ uname -a

[Richard_York]

While we're here, I see it keeps mentioning both 32bits and 64bits as width of various components. I'm now puzzled whether this is a 32bit or a 64bit machine. I've been installing 32 bit versions of what I've tried on it so far.
Thanks for any help, especially in very basic language.

[kansasnoob]

You could run amd64 on that machine but with only 2GB of RAM you probably wouldn't see any notable improvement. Of course 18.04 iso images will not be available in 32 bit so since you're playing around it can't hurt to try the amd64 images rather than the i386 images. We can expect more and more apps to drop 32 bit support in the not-so-distant future

As to the problems with 16.04 images I'm fairly sure it is a kernel problem that began with 17.04 and 16.04.3. I'm not sure if it was fixed in 17.10.1 or not. The easiest thing to do would be to try booting/installing from a 16.04.1 image:

http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/16.04.1/

That's the link for Ubuntu but with those specs you might want to try something lighter like Lubuntu, Ubuntu MATE, or Xubuntu.

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/16.04/release/

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/releases/16.04.1/release/

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mate/releases/16.04.1/release/

Just be sure to use the 16.04.1 images because 16.04.2 is HWE EOL.

An optional light desktop environment for Ubuntu is GNOME Flashback w/Metacity:

https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2302432

There's a bit of info about that specific kernel problem here:

https://askubuntu.com/questions/970679/drm-i915-gpu-hang-in-artful-advark-17-10?answertab=votes#tab-top

It does seem to effect both Intel GM965 and GMA X3100 graphics chips.

[Richard_York]

Thank you very much - lots of useful homework here, but stuff I can hopefully try even though I don't understand what or why I'm doing it! (eg at present I admit that neither HWE EOL nor most of the information in the forum links means anything to me, but small bits of it may do in time.)

As you say, I'm playing to see what works, so if it all falls over I can start again with something else.
Knowing that the machine will take 64bit is useful. I got the impression that trying to load a 64bit image from a working 32bit system in order to try the 64bit system out is doomed to failure, so wonder if that step is surmountable... only one way to find out!
Just started downloading Xubuntu 64bit.

[kansasnoob]

Thank you very much - lots of useful homework here, but stuff I can hopefully try even though I don't understand what or why I'm doing it! (eg at present I admit that neither HWE EOL nor most of the information in the forum links means anything to me, but small bits of it may do in time.)

It all seems much more complicated than it is. It just boils down to understanding Ubuntu's release cycle. Every two years Ubuntu releases an LTS (long term support) release that's supported for 5 years, eg; 12.04, 14.04, 16.04, 18.04. The version numbers simply reflect year and month released, 12.04 = April 2012, 14.04 = April 2014, 16.04 = April 2016, 18.04 = April 2018.

In between LTS releases Ubuntu has interim or "normal" releases at 6 month intervals that are only supported for 9 months. The only currently supported interim release is 17.10 (released October 2017) since 17.04 just reached EOL (end of life) in January. I'd personally never use an interim release on a production machine because release upgrades can and sometimes do fail.

So, back to the LTS releases. Each LTS release also has 5 point releases, the first usually coming in August following the initial release. Like 14.04 was released in April 2014 and it's already had its 5 point releases - 14.04.1, 14.04.2, 14.04.3, 14.04.4, and 14.04.5. The first point release still uses the original kernel series, but the second, third, and fourth point releases use the most recent interim releases kernel series. The fifth point release ends up using the next LTS versions kernel series. That's all reflected in this 14.04 kernel support graph:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Support?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=14.04.x+Ubuntu+Kernel+Support+Schedule.svg

You can see there that the original kernel series is supported throughout the entire life cycle of the release but the kernel series used in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th point releases reach end-of-life (EOL) much sooner requiring upgrade to the 5th point releases kernel series. Actually the X-stack gets upgraded along with the kernel, this is all referred to as HWE (hardware enablement) with the intention of supporting the latest hardware:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack

They changed things up in 16.04, actually shortening the support cycle of the HWE stacks used in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th point releases:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/Support?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=16.04.x+Ubuntu+Kernel+Support+Schedule.svg

So the smart bet is on always using the first point release installation media (aka; live image) to avoid the shorter HWE lifespan unless the latest kernel and X support is required for your specific hardware. Of course if the first point release iso is not yet available then you would use the initial release media.

Is any of that clear as mud? Or just more confusing?


As you say, I'm playing to see what works, so if it all falls over I can start again with something else.
Knowing that the machine will take 64bit is useful. I got the impression that trying to load a 64bit image from a working 32bit system in order to try the 64bit system out is doomed to failure, so wonder if that step is surmountable... only one way to find out!
Just started downloading Xubuntu 64bit.

That's a super smart strategy! I do a lot of testing using spare machines before I commit any production machines to any new change. I frequently blow things up and have to start all over :oops:

[Richard_York]

Thank you for this patient explanation. It does help!
.... then, just when I was feeling newly confident, I got to the bit where you said you frequently blow things up.... !!

I think I take a step forward each time I really need to change something, and it all starts making more sense (up to a point!). Then, because I'm a user of computers rather than an enthusiast for the sake of it, once the system's behaving, I let it get on with things, so that each time I need to come back and update stuff, everything's moved on, and I've also forgotten half of what I learned last time.

Meanwhile, I'm now using Xubuntu 16 here, dual booted on this tiny laptop alongside 14.04 Ubuntu, thanks to your help. Slow, but they both work. So I'm feeling more confident that I'll be able to install 16LTS on the new desktop machine, which already has WIndows10 on it, without breaking it.
So unless I've lost the plot, I'd download 16.04.5 and install on a USB startup, then allow the installation to put it alongside Windows....? Or am I over-simplifying and being over-optimistic?

Does it matter whether I download the Ubuntu iso onto an Ubuntu machine for this, or should I do this through the Windows machine?

I hope this isn't now too off-topic, but it's all part of the process which caused my first post in the thread here.

Thanks again,

[oldfred]

If a new system with Windows 10 pre-installed, you will then have UEFI with gpt partitioning.
Older systems were BIOS with MBR partitioning.
Definitions of terms are at end of link in my signature.

But best to review link, but it has a lot of detail. And then more links to explain the things you may not understand.

At least look at this:
Shows install with screen shots. Both BIOS purple accessibility screen & UEFI black grub menu screen
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEFI

And do backups before anything else.

[Richard_York]

Thank you, this is more homework I'll have to approach carefully, but with good hope!
I'll mark this thread as solved, as my original issue is now dealt with, and maybe start a new thread if problems with the next stage arise.

I'm most grateful, again, for all these helpful answers.