KDE 4: A milestone or plain hype?

[Castar]

Do you think KDE 4 will be an amazing new experience or is it too hyped-up?

[plb]

Only time will tell. It sure does sound interesting and promising....I guess we will see.

[GeneralZod]

Speaking as a devout KDE fan, I reckon it's been very, very over-hyped. I'm not expecting anything radical at all.

[ComplexNumber]

pure unadulterated hype. having said that, its certainly not the developers who are to blame, it seems.
"dont expect and you won't be disappointed" is a good adage to follow. given the amount of hype that its received, its sure better be amazing beyond belief, otherwise its going to leave a lot of people with a bitter taste in their mouth.

[dabear]

I'm looking forward to the speed optimalizations given the move to qt4. Speed is the only thing significant factor for me :)

[plb]

http://developer.kde.org/development-versions/kde-4.0-features.html
http://wiki.kde.org/KDE+4+Goals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE4

[win_zik]

Looking at what's new in Qt4 and looking at the appeal projects, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a great step forward.

I also fail to see the hype. Where's the hype exactly? I almost never come across KDE4 stories and if I do they are usually about the current status of the project.

[gnomeuser]

So far I haven't seen anything in KDE4 that makes me want to switch. To me it seems overhyped, I'm sure it will be a fine release, the KDE people always deliver well tested code but I just haven't seen anything groundbreaking just more of the same and that doesn't excite me the least bit.

Then again it does seem to me that GNOME is a bit at a stand still, we lack the desire to set down a hard feature requirement list for any given version. That is something KDE has always done well, even if they don't always hit all their goals they aren't at least afraid to set them.

One thing I am very pleased to see in KDE is the adoption of DBus, I hope we'll see even more work between the various free desktops to adopt FreeDesktop.org standards, I'm honestly more fired up about the projects under that umbrella than any given desktop.

[Jucato]

You know the funny thing about "hypes" like these? They're usually made and magnified more by users than the developers themselves. KDE devs say that KDE 4 would be lighter thanks to Qt 4, users go around saying KDE 4 will be awesome. KDE devs say that this or that feature will be included, users will say KDE 4 will be awesome. The irony of it is there is no means for these users to actually verify these things, because all that has been done up to now are on the code level, and nothing usable yet by non-developers.

Whether KDE 4 is a hype or not, only time will tell. We'll only be able to really judge it when it comes out in a usable form (the tech preview in October does not count). Until then, we could only judge its progress if we are constantly monitoring developments in every way possible (SVN builds, Planet KDE, etc.)

I can't really blame users, though. It seems to be only human nature. Just look at all the excitement around Dapper. I think the same atmosphere will surround GNOME once it starts to "publicly" work on 3.x.

[tikal26]

Uhh, maybe people expect something completly radical, but I am expecting a step of evolution magnittute not revolutionary. KDE 4 is the beginning of Linux doing its own thing and not just copying other OS.

I would be happy with things that are not that far fetch 20-30% increase in performance, a nicer look (take a look at the new Oxygen icons preview. the new mixer that Phonon has made avaialble, during the multimedia meeting they added a feature in which you cna set volume separetly for Video, music,etc. You can be listening to a song on Amarok and browsing the internet and if you play a clip from the internet the volume from the song you were listening will get lowered and when you finish watching or listening to the streaming clip the volume will go back up. (I mean this is just woth the upgrade).

I am still looking foward to see what plasma is all about (most hype comes from this projec), and see if tenor gets resureccted. Kde 4.0 is also bringing coll apps like koffice 2.0, Amarok 2.0, plus Okular (an all purpose viewer) so some things already there are extrmely nice, but only time will tell if KDe 4.0 will live up to the hype

Aaron is actually going to give a talk about plasma during Akademy and how they plan to help existing users to learn to use it, so I think we will actually see something worth at that time

[EdThaSlayer]

Having tried KDE before...i didnt really like it because of one reason...IT IS TOO SLOW. But when i heard about them trying to improve it by doing the best thing possible "Making it more speedy", i thought in my mind, "well...why dont i try KDE again after version 4 is out".
Basically all the people are hyped up about the speed, which is one reason GNOME was doing well...finally KDE will have their comeback...

[ComplexNumber]

KDE 4 is the beginning of Linux doing its own thing and not just copying other OS.don't you mean that it may be the beginning of kde doing its own thing instead of copying other OS's? enlightenment, gnome, and many others have been doing their own thing (for the most part).

[tikal26]

don't you mean that it may be the beginning of kde doing its own thing instead of copying other OS's? enlightenment, gnome, and many others have been doing their own thing (for the most part).

ok, so enlightmnet has, but gnome really hasn't other thatn a little thing here and there. As opossed to Kde 4 which is trying to do it all over.

This is my opinion lets not start a gnome vs. KDE war this post is about KDE 4.0

[Castar]

... and see if tenor gets resureccted.


Is it officially "dead"?



This is my opinion lets not start a gnome vs. KDE war this post is about KDE 4.0

I agree. There other posts for this :)

[ComplexNumber]

Is it officially "dead"?
no, just dormant ;). if it were officially dead, someone somewhere would have given a hint about this or that they are changing direction.

[GeneralZod]

Is it officially "dead"?


Not officially, but I have heard nothing about it and there has been no svn activity in 5 months:

http://websvn.kde.org/branches/work/kde4/playground/base/tenor/

Pretty damning, I'd say. Kat is about as close to dead as it's possible to get, although Strigi may end up replacing it - that at least seems to be reasonably actively developed (http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/playground/base/strigi/?rev=573982#dirlist).

[Castar]

I agree that the most exciting feature has to be Plasma, just because no one knows how it's going to be like! :rolleyes:

[ComplexNumber]

I agree that the most exciting feature has to be Plasma, just because no one knows how it's going to be like! :rolleyes:
so in other words, you are hyping it up in your own mind? ;)

[v8YKxgHe]

When is KDE 4 expected to be released?

[Castar]

so in other words, you are hyping it up in your own mind? ;)

LOL that's a good point :D

[tikal26]

AlexC- we are going to have a preview fall this year, Aaron Segio is going to give a presenatation during Akademy.(http://conference2006.kde.org/conference/talks/17.php)

I am looking foward to some things that were supposed to be there, but I have not hear anything from them.

allowing multiple layouts on the desktop that are context sensitive (changing depending on what you are doing, for instance)

providing ad hoc networking (having, say, an area that a user can drag objects into, and everything in that area is published on the local network)

[TheAmazingJambi]

I think most new software coming out, commericial or free, is overhyped. That said, having used KDE in the past, I've found it to be an excellent DE, with one exception: the interface design. If they can get rid of clutter and fix their layout problems, while keeping it customizable for those who want to access the full breadth of options, it'll be well recieved.

[weatherman]

and we'll get dashboard widgets :mrgreen:

[mips]

People should wait until the official release plus a few months before they comment. Right now everything is just hype created by users and not devs...

[gnomeuser]

and we'll get dashboard widgets :mrgreen:

We have those already... look up Jackfield (done by one of the LugRadio blokes). I'm sure it runs on lesser desktops as well.

[Terracotta]

and we'll get dashboard widgets :mrgreen:
yey, another clock, next generation garbage can, wheather monitor... I believe all these widgets have been in superkaramba, and perhaps there are some not yet available, the use of dashboard widgets goes beyond me, but well at least it gives people the freedom to use more than the native applets, perhaps in the future support for opera widgets? and perhaps support for windows vista widgets, and then we can celebrate for having it all :mrgreen: . Oh and don't forget plasma applets use the 3D card to render, not the cpu, tough luck for those who don't have a 3D card, but then again, one wouldn't use KDE if he doesn't have a pc with a 3D card.
But well still looking forward to it though,speed improvements, let's hope it delivers, and phonon sounds great. Actually the thing I'm looking most forward to is Koffice 2. Making the lightweight office suite even more lightweight but more functional :twisted: .

[Yohumbus]

I'd have to say that there won't be enough change in the environment itself to be revolutionary to the user. I think the most awesome part of KDE 4 will be the development environment. I haven't actually written anything for KDE but I have looked at how it and Qt are structured, and the new libraries that KDE 4 will include will make programming faster and simpler. Phonon especially looks promising because it will allow a simple interface to program for, but the back ends can handle many advanced features. The user will benefit because if they want sound to work on a specific set of speakers or even across a network then they set it up once and all KDE 4 media applications will operate similarly. The new hardware support will hopefully be just as good. I've seen on these boards and /. that the new thing preventing linux adoption is poor support for consumer peripheral devices like MP3 players and cameras and such. I don't know much about the hardware interface that will be added but I can imagine that a modular and consistent way of interfacing to such devices will be a godsend (if its made well but KDE is pretty solid so far).

[mrgnash]

I don't know... I was a big fan of KDE, and I still prefer many of the KDE applications like Amarok, Kaffeine and Kopete to their Gnome counterparts. But on the other hand, I'm a very aesthetic person and it seems to me that Gnome has surpassed KDE in that category; something which the screenshots of KDE4 seem to indicate that it hasn't remedied. So for that shallow reason alone, the promise of KDE4 hasn't really rocked my world :P

[croak77]

something which the screenshots of KDE4 seem to indicate that it hasn't remedied. So for that shallow reason alone, the promise of KDE4 hasn't really rocked my world :P

As far as I know, there are no screenshots of KDE 4.

[Castar]

... I'm a very aesthetic person and it seems to me that Gnome has surpassed KDE in that category; something which the screenshots of KDE4 seem to indicate that it hasn't remedied.

I agree that currently Gnome looks better than KDE. Cleaner and sleeker.


As far as I know, there are no screenshots of KDE 4.

I think there is only one screenshot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KDE4-prealpha-kate.png) (and I've searched a lot :P) with just Kate. Every other image is a mockup. It doesn't seem too dramatic for me, even though it is a very early screenshot.

[Jucato]

About those "screenshots"...
There have also been some screenshots of some apps that are running in KDE 4, but you have to understand that these screenshots have nothing to yet with how KDE 4 will look. These are more of screenshots saying how KDE will run or if apps are running on the new Qt. Much of the work that has been done have been on the code level. There are also some work going on for Oxygen (icon theme) and from the KDE Usability working group, but none so far that we can concretely see.

I personally prefer it this way, that the programmers are clearly focused on improving code and migrating to Qt 4, while other people are focused on the aesthetic and usability areas. Or would you rather they have focused first on pretty interfaces, icons, and borders, while the code beneath remained pretty much the same?

-------

One thing that I'm looking forward to in KDE 4 is that most apps will be able to run on Windows, too, because of Qt 4. This would mean that I will be able to use my favorite KDE apps in those rare times that I have to use Windows...

EDIT: That Kate screenshot is clearly using KDE 3 themes: Plastik window decoration, Plastik widget style, and Crystal SVG icon theme. These are the KDE defaults. This will definitely NOT be the defaults in KDE 4, at least for the icon theme.

[mrgnash]

About those "screenshots"...
There have also been some screenshots of some apps that are running in KDE 4, but you have to understand that these screenshots have nothing to yet with how KDE 4 will look. These are more of screenshots saying how KDE will run or if apps are running on the new Qt. Much of the work that has been done have been on the code level. There are also some work going on for Oxygen (icon theme) and from the KDE Usability working group, but none so far that we can concretely see.

I personally prefer it this way, that the programmers are clearly focused on improving code and migrating to Qt 4, while other people are focused on the aesthetic and usability areas. Or would you rather they have focused first on pretty interfaces, icons, and borders, while the code beneath remained pretty much the same?

Honestly... yes. But as I said, that's just the way I am... I know that other people have other, more reasonable priorities :)

[LMP900]

Do you think KDE 4 will be an amazing new experience or is it too hyped-up?

I'd say somewhere in between. I doubt we'll see a radical difference. As with any new version of software, I appreciate the small improvements (speed improvements, minor feature additions, etc.) over a complete overhaul. I am looking forward to KDE 4 whether or not it will be a whole new experience.

[Gijith]

It's incredible that hardly a shred of credible info on Plasma has been revealed. Either Aaron and Co run a tighter ship than almost any organization is existence, or maybe they're still very unsure of what they'll include...?

Can't wait for a screenshot.

[ComplexNumber]

It's incredible that hardly a shred of credible info on Plasma has been revealed. its not just plasma, i haven't seen any thing tangible on any of the projects. therefore, users can imagine it to be as fantastic as they want. perhaps the intention is to keep it all vague. who knows :-k

[Jucato]

Well, tangible for who? ComplexNumber posted (amazingly, I might say) about the First Development Snapshot of KDE 4. He himself noted there that it's not for users, but only for developers.

If by "tangible" you mean something users can see, use, feel, notice, or experience, then there really is none, aside from the Oxygen icons and a few screenshots of some apps here and there (from Planet KDE).

But for developers or programmers who would know, there would already be "tangible" changes, specially since code was ported to Qt 4.

But then again, no one's probably interested in code optimizations that would make KDE perform better...

[ComplexNumber]

Well, tangible for who? ComplexNumber posted (amazingly, I might say) about the First Development Snapshot of KDE 4. He himself noted there that it's not for users, but only for developers.

If by "tangible" you mean something users can see, use, feel, notice, or experience, then there really is none, aside from the Oxygen icons and a few screenshots of some apps here and there (from Planet KDE).

But for developers or programmers who would know, there would already be "tangible" changes, specially since code was ported to Qt 4.

But then again, no one's probably interested in code optimizations that would make KDE perform better...
therefore, this poll is a waste and just pure speculation based on peoples imagination etc. the first option in the poll is "It (IS) going to be fantastic". thats just in peoples imagination. and given that more people have voted for that option, we can safely conclude that the 2nd option is more likely to be the more realistic and accurate one at this stage. if the 1st option was "It will probably be fantastic based on what is known", then that would be different.

[Jucato]

Remember the question?

Do you think KDE 4 will be an amazing new experience or is it too hyped-up?

The thread is clearly asking for opinion, speculation, or predictions. It may or may not be based on what is or what isn't already there. For end users, the first option might be only speculation. For programmers, it might be a reality already.

My point is that it's not something we can really determine "tangibly" or visibly. Heck, we can't even judge right now if KDE 4 is just a hype or not. Still, there's nothing wrong with a little discussion. There have been similar discussions about any upcoming release, whether it be KDE 4, Dapper Drake, or Debian Etch.

[plb]

I don't think there is any hype about it if you visit the official kde wiki or feature plans page you can see what I mean........

http://wiki.kde.org/KDE+4+Goals
http://developer.kde.org/development-versions/kde-4.0-features.html

most noticable is the new start menu, multimedia backend (phonon), plasma, and solid...also new graphical effects, new kde control center design....this is just a short list...I think KDE 4 is going to be great. That is the one thing I admire more about the KDE devs that that of Gnome...they are more community driven imho and progress moves along at a faster pace.

[tikal26]

I think that overall KDE 4 is not going to be spectacular when it comes out but by the underlaying technologies will make a nice evolution. I was thinking about this earlier today with all the discussion of commercial products to Linux and realized that at some time in the near future we might be able to get rhapsody on linux (I am sure of this since many times they have said that they will have all their features available in a Linux client). I was thinking about kubuntu using gstreamer, but maybe having amarok use helix and maybe another program some other backend for different things. Well I guess that if KDE 4 was only supporting things like gstreamer and then rhapsody releases a linux client we would be stuck.I know it is all speculation. Another thing is the way in which phonon would deal with the volume control. I guess that KDE 4.0 would be a solid release, but the spectacular part would be the way in which application developers use the technology. Also KDE 4 will bring Koffice 2.0 and I think that alone would make it worth it.

edit: Now you might all want to look at this
http://dot.kde.org/1169588301/
OK that is the kind of thing that I am looking foward to I am sure that with some polish it would just be amazing

[banjobacon]

edit: Now you might all want to look at this
http://dot.kde.org/1169588301/
OK that is the kind of thing that I am looking foward to I am sure that with some polish it would just be amazing

Gnome has Mathusalem in the works, which the article links to. From what I've read, both seem to be the same thing. Hopefully both desktops will be able to use these soon.

[ComplexNumber]

Gnome has Mathusalem in the works, which the article links to. From what I've read, both seem to be the same thing. Hopefully both desktops will be able to use these soon.as per usual, gnome gets there first :D.
click (http://linuxrevolution.blogspot.com/2006/08/mathusalem.html). its been under development for ages. in august last year, it was at version 0.4

[maniacmusician]

in development for ages.....

since I've never heard of it before now, I'll assume it's not doing very well, which is probably not such a good thing considering the ages that it's been in development :)

[ComplexNumber]

in development for ages.....

since I've never heard of it before now, I'll assume it's not doing very well, which is probably not such a good thing considering the ages that it's been in development :)
i'm not quite sure about that logic. until about 6 months or so ago, i'd never heard of gpaco, but thats been in development for ages (and still is - the last release was in november 2006. the first was in 2004). i'd never heard of Mathusalem either. i guess because neither are part of mainstream gnome.

[banjobacon]

Actually, Mathusalem was at version 0.0.4 in August, not 0.4. But do version numbers really mean anything?

It's been in development for less than a year, so I wouldn't say it's been ages.

[darkhatter]

wasn't this a KDE thread

[mips]

wasn't this a KDE thread

And pretty soon we will be hearing how superior gnome is to kde...

[Terracotta]

as per usual, gnome gets there first :D.
click (http://linuxrevolution.blogspot.com/2006/08/mathusalem.html). its been under development for ages. in august last year, it was at version 0.4

Didn't know it was a contest. These kind of technologies should be part of the free desktop project, for interoperabilities sake. Besides: the idea has been floating on Kde-look.org for a while now. They just waited for the necesary libraries to be there (and for kuiserver).

[fuscia]

i've said it before...kde4 > gnome3.

[tikal26]

Ok guys las an ubuntucommunityI have said time after time that we are very civilized when it comes to the whole gnome vs. kde stuff. I thingn that we have being able to coexist so far. I think that KDE 4 is good for linux overall because it is trying to do it sown thing and its pushing other to do it wheter or not it does it all in the 4.0 release I am not sure, but maybe a KDE 4.3 would be great. I tihnk KDE 4.0 is about the idea and the underlying technologies. I can't wait until gnome comes up with their plan for Gnome 3.0 to see how other project will reacct to it. I think that is good tha Linux projects are strating to push each other to innovate.

[banjobacon]

i've said it before...kde4 > gnome3.

Fanboyism. [-(

It's nice that you're excited about the new release of KDE, but comparing it to Gnome 3, which doesn't exist in any shape or form, is just stupid.

[ComplexNumber]

more info about kde 4 here (http://dot.kde.org/1170773239/) concerning phonon.

[Azriphale]

Having developed applications using Qt4 since its initial release two years ago, I don't think that KDE4 is all hype. It would be worth the switch even if only for Qt4.

[esaym]

We need to keep it on our minds there is kde 4 and kde 4.0. There will not be much difference between kde 4.0 and kde 3.5. Now kde 4.5 might be something to talk about.

[Anthem]

Supposedly QT4 shows up to a 30% speed increase over QT3. If KDE4's significantly faster than KDE3, then that's a win right there.

[Rhapsody]

The KDE 4 naysayers are starting to look a bit silly with the recent release of KDE 4.0 Beta 1. Vapourware, eh?

On a more serious note, I'll probably be more excited about KDE 4.1 rather than KDE 4.0. The first reason being that you should never use x.0 releases, and the second reason being that KDE 4.1 is where Qt-WebKit will likely replace KHTML, finally giving us a proper free competitor to Gecko. Now if only Konqueror had the same range of extensions that Firefox has...

[BOBSONATOR]

What is it going to do, shoot sparks and tell my future?

over-hype to me.

[DeadSuperHero]

From what I've read on the technology used in KDE, it sounds really neat. Heck, as long as it runs fast, and can make customization easy, that sounds pretty awesome to me.
The ideas behind Phonon have definitely gotten me interested, the Oxygen project looks beautiful as well. I just hope that KDE4 has an easy way to scale icons, like GNOME does. I love having ridiculously large icons, especially with Vector imaging.
And Plasma looks cool, too. It seems to be a nice way to integrate all the different KDE widgets, which makes me stoked. If it makes things easier, how can I possibly complain?
That said, GNOME is just as good as KDE. It's just as functional, and it's a totally different thing than KDE (at least, interfacewise). That said, I hope for the best for all Linux projects, they're all cool in my opinion.

[triptoe]

From what I have read QT seems superior to GTK.. especially since it is written with C++ . I have heard from a developers standpoint it is better... but the problem I see is the license. If you want to make money written off something in QT you have to pay trolltech... isn't that correct? Refresh me if I am wrong.

Anyways that is why I use gnome.... (plus the name is cooler)

[Anthem]

From what I have read QT seems superior to GTK.. especially since it is written with C++ . I have heard from a developers standpoint it is better... but the problem I see is the license. If you want to make money written off something in QT you have to pay trolltech... isn't that correct? Refresh me if I am wrong.

Anyways that is why I use gnome.... (plus the name is cooler)
But it's free if you're producing Free Software.

[WebDrake]

But it's free if you're producing Free Software.

Well, there are arguments that can be made that even though in general we want free software, it's not a good idea to have that choice forced upon programmers by the GUI.

More specific to this case, it's potentially a problematic situation to have non-free licensing controlled by one single commercial organisation. It puts a lot of power in their hands. I suspect this is one reason why GNOME has been favoured by many of the commercial Linux distributions.

[misfitpierce]

KDE fan here and I think it's shaping up greatly.

[Altarbo]

From what I have read QT seems superior to GTK.. especially since it is written with C++ . I have heard from a developers standpoint it is better... but the problem I see is the license. If you want to make money written off something in QT you have to pay trolltech... isn't that correct? Refresh me if I am wrong.

Anyways that is why I use gnome.... (plus the name is cooler)QT is GPL v2. Gtk is LGPL. Software using the QT library must also be released under the GPL v2. Software using gtk can be released under any license. GPL allows you to charge both for the software itself, for service, or whatever else you think of. So you can charge money for software under the GPL (Redhat), but if your business model revolves around selling users proprietary licenses to the software (Corel) then no you should not use QT.

[Anthem]

Well, there are arguments that can be made that even though in general we want free software, it's not a good idea to have that choice forced upon programmers by the GUI.

More specific to this case, it's potentially a problematic situation to have non-free licensing controlled by one single commercial organisation. It puts a lot of power in their hands. I suspect this is one reason why GNOME has been favoured by many of the commercial Linux distributions.
Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything. If you want to write Free Software, QT is a great tool. If you want to write cross-platform non-free software, QT is still a great tool. But you'll have to pay money for it.

That's not a big deal. If you're going to be making money, you can pay for good tools or use inferior ones. Nothing forceful or unfair about that.

[Castar]

From what I have read QT seems superior to GTK.. especially since it is written with C++ . I have heard from a developers standpoint it is better... but the problem I see is the license. If you want to make money written off something in QT you have to pay trolltech... isn't that correct? Refresh me if I am wrong.

Anyways that is why I use gnome.... (plus the name is cooler)

Qt is covered by GPL. This means, if you want to sell your software you also have to give the source code. If you want to have a closed-source product, it is then when you have to pay Trolltech.

I personally think it is a fair deal...

[Old Pink]

I doubt I'll even try it out, from what I've seen it's all hype. Don't think anything could switch me from GNOME.

[igknighted]

QT is GPL v2. Gtk is LGPL. Software using the QT library must also be released under the GPL v2. Software using gtk can be released under any license. GPL allows you to charge both for the software itself, for service, or whatever else you think of. So you can charge money for software under the GPL (Redhat), but if your business model revolves around selling users proprietary licenses to the software (Corel) then no you should not use QT.

What about Opera? It is closed source and uses QT (not trying to argue, just curious why this is allowable if what you say is true).

Oh, and KDE4 is awesome. There has been a lot of hype, so maybe it is overhyped a bit, but none the less it is a milestone achievement for linux.

[WebDrake]

Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything. If you want to write Free Software, QT is a great tool. If you want to write cross-platform non-free software, QT is still a great tool. But you'll have to pay money for it.

That's not a big deal. If you're going to be making money, you can pay for good tools or use inferior ones. Nothing forceful or unfair about that.

It's not a question of "fairness". It's a valid commercial strategy for Trolltech to take (discussed, actually, in one of Stallman's earliest articles on the GPL) and they have been a generous and important contributor to the corpus of Free Software. However, that doesn't mean it's strategically correct or desirable from the point of view of the OS (by which I mean here not just the kernel + toolchain but the full system including GUI). There are several arguments to be made here.

One is that from an OS point of view you would like to have the widest possible range of software for your platform and that means making it as easy as possible for people to implement software regardless of their licensing or technical choices. This is the logic behind e.g. the GNU standard C library which is LGPL. It's a strategic choice which says, "This is an absolutely crucial tool, it's better to have everyone using this free tool and get a foot in the door with all developers than to have a division where free developers go with us and everyone else (the majority) goes with a completely different platform."

Having a commercial license for non-GPL use is not developer-neutral (bad, from this point of view) and also restricts the choice of free software licenses. In addition it potentially means that commercial users get to lock away their own modifications or improvements of the library, not just the code that links to it (I might be wrong here, I don't know the precise detail of Trolltech's commercial license, but it's a problem worth considering).

Second, again from an OS point of view, one of the great strengths of free operating systems like GNU/Linux is there is no one person or organisation controlling entry. But if the tools required for full integration with your GUI are owned by one company and is licensed so that non-GPL use requires buying a commercial license, that places a huge amount of power and responsibility in the hands of one player. "You don't want to write GPL software? Then you have to play by our rules..." is not a good situation, it carries too much potential for abuse. You don't want the ability to write fully-integrated software for your OS determined by someone else's business plan.

There's a subtle line between software freedom and software popularity, which we have to walk even if software freedom is the sole ultimate goal. One trap is being so concerned with getting our software used that we let developers with conflicting goals take and not give back. But we do need users for our software to grow and develop and it's important to decide on licensing for each part of an OS based on where it fits in this popularity/freedom ecosystem. So, you license gcc as GPL but libstdc as LGPL, because if the former isn't completely free you see no tangible benefit compared to the existing situation but if the latter can be used by anyone---as long as its direct derivatives remain free---you begin tying users to a free tool.

Likewise with a GUI you want it to remain free (otherwise what's the point?) but there's a benefit in people being able to write applications for it in whatever way they want. Note that this isn't just about proprietary software but people who want to write free or open source software with alternative licenses to GPL. Having those alternative choices like MPL and CDDL and so on is an important part of the FOSS ecosystem.

Having licensing choices tied to one company and their commercial interests gets in the way of that regardless of whether---as in the case of Trolltech---that company is well-intentioned towards the free software movement. It's an issue of concern, even if (like me) you love KDE and think it's a fantastic GUI.

[Anthem]

I wouldn't be against QT adopting LGPL at some point (and they're able to do this since they own the code), but recognize why GNOME and GTK started in the first place: because QT was proprietary. They got a ton of flak for having a non-free toolkit, so they said "Fine. You want Free? Here's a GPL version. Happy?"

[Rhapsody]

From what I have read QT seems superior to GTK.. especially since it is written with C++ . I have heard from a developers standpoint it is better... but the problem I see is the license.
I've actually had personal experience with this.

R. Belmont (member of MAMEdev and developer of the Linux version of Audio Overload) has actually stated that he doesn't like Gtk+ very much and would rather be using Qt. But Audio Overload is non-free, so he has to use Gtk+ instead, and I have to deal with the Gtk+ file open dialog (which I think the is single worst piece of GUI design that I have ever seen).


If you want to make money written off something in QT you have to pay trolltech... isn't that correct? Refresh me if I am wrong.
Incorrect. To use the free version of Qt your software must be under a GPLv2-compatible licence, and the right to commercial usage is a guaranteed right under the definition of free software.


But it's free if you're producing Free Software.
Also incorrect. The free version of Qt is dual-licensed under the GPL and QPL, if you use a free software licence that is not compatible with either, then you can't use the free version of Qt with it.


I wouldn't be against QT adopting LGPL at some point (and they're able to do this since they own the code),
They'll never do it.

The way Trolltech makes money from Qt is by selling proprietary licences to developers. If the put Qt under the LGPL, it'd be possible to link proprietary software with it (which you can't do with the GPL). So how would they sell proprietary licences then?

That's also the main difference between Qt and Gtk+. Qt is a commercial project, made by a company that needs to make money. Gtk+ is a community project, which doesn't need to be profitable. That's why Gtk+ is under the LGPL while Qt is not.

[Castar]

I wouldn't be against QT adopting LGPL at some point (and they're able to do this since they own the code), but recognize why GNOME and GTK started in the first place: because QT was proprietary. They got a ton of flak for having a non-free toolkit, so they said "Fine. You want Free? Here's a GPL version. Happy?"

Yet now people bash Qt because it's not LGPLed... Let's be real here, it is fair for Trolltech to ask for payment if you want to develop closed-source software with Qt; people make their living out of it. They DO promote open-source after all!

[slimdog360]

lighter + more functionality = win

[gumjo]

To take the topic back on track, I think KDE4 is going to be awesome. The single reason is because regardless of it doing something revolutionary in the world of Desktop Environments (which is going to be a pretty big feat in itself) it is going to be a brand new desktop with lots of new features, optimized backends, easier development and programs for the end user that not only improve productivity (the new Plasma kicker, Plasma) but also be a treat to use for use for entertainment and normal day usage. I think the people who feel that KDE4 is overhyped haven't been following the project and are just thinking its hype because of the many buzzwords being thrown around. That's a fair point because I don't think KDE4 development is getting as much exposure as it should. The few screenshots that have been released are on the developers blog and so information on the project is pretty obscure and hard to find. Regardless, the biggest issue is going to be realizing the entire potention of this ambitious release for KDE4. Personally I feel KDE4 is going to rock simply because they are *finally* adhering to a HIG. They're already rectifying the design issues by simplifying the interface design and producing some beautiful artwork in the process (Oxygen).

The single reason that it is going to be a milestone is because it has changed my outlook on the entire project. I hate KDE3 (even though I prefer many of its apps over the Gnome counterpart) because it is a very amaterish looking desktop with many design flaws. KDE4 is going to be a total refresh, so be it the back end or the desktop itself. I think what everyone should realise, whether they believe KDE4 itself is particularly going to be a milestone release or not is that even if some of the biggest features being touted don't make it into the release, there's no doubting that the KDE4 developers are laying a great foundation to make their DE on.

[RomeReactor]

Since there was no "Too Early To Tell" option, I didn't vote. I've tried KDE every now and then, and as it stands now, I'm just more comfortable with Gnome than KDE. Having said that, I think that Phonon, Plasma, and Solid are really exciting projects, as are the Oxygen icons. Yes, too early to say, but I certainly can't wait to see the release.

[bread eyes]

The only things I'm interested in is Kross, Strigi, ThreadWeaver, Sonnet, and Qt 4.

[miggols99]

I think that it looks really promising. I looked at some screencasts and they look really good. I like that it's faster too. Gives me a reason to run it on my slower computer ;) The apps looks really good (but the live cd is really buggy, but the Mepis one is much better :)). I am looking forward to KDE4 :)

[stmiller]

Re: KDE 4: A milestone or plain hype?

- entire project ported to QT4.3

- new multimedia framework (http://phonon.kde.org/) which automagically uses existing operating system audio backend, be that on Windows, Linux, or OS X.

- entirely new artwork (http://www.oxygen-icons.org/)facelift

- entirely new workspace (http://plasma.kde.org/)

- new file manager
(http://enzosworld.gmxhome.de/)
- Portability: KDE4 apps can be run native in Windows, Linux, or OSX, as KDE 4 (QT4) does not need X anymore.

Meh, yeah just hype.

[g2g591]

Kde 4 looks great, but as of beta 1 still has lots of bugs to be fixed, but thats why its still beta.

[WebDrake]

Yet now people bash Qt because it's not LGPLed... Let's be real here, it is fair for Trolltech to ask for payment if you want to develop closed-source software with Qt; people make their living out of it. They DO promote open-source after all!

Was I "bashing"? I acknowledged at the beginning of my post that what Trolltech is doing is perfectly fair and valid.

I'm simply pointing out that there are some potential clashes between the interests of Linux as an OS and the licensing of Qt/KDE and this may well have something to do with why GNOME has become favoured by many of the distros (especially enterprise distros).

You could of course interpret the same situation to say that Qt/KDE is better as its licensing encourages people to write free, copyleft software. It all depends on what you feel is best in the subtle line between encouraging free software and getting people to write software that uses your libraries (interests which are not always in opposition).

[Castar]

WebDrake I wasn't really referring to you personally, I'm sorry if it sounded like it.

It is just that I have heard this argument many times and I think it's a bit unfair to still quote the license issue, when we are not really company representatives. Granted, GTK is more appealing to companies because it gives them more flexibility. I still feel that Qt provides more for developers.

[Alex Fernandez]

So far I haven't seen anything in KDE4 that makes me want to switch. To me it seems overhyped, I'm sure it will be a fine release, the KDE people always deliver well tested code but I just haven't seen anything groundbreaking just more of the same and that doesn't excite me the least bit.

Then again it does seem to me that GNOME is a bit at a stand still, we lack the desire to set down a hard feature requirement list for any given version. That is something KDE has always done well, even if they don't always hit all their goals they aren't at least afraid to set them.

One thing I am very pleased to see in KDE is the adoption of DBus, I hope we'll see even more work between the various free desktops to adopt FreeDesktop.org standards, I'm honestly more fired up about the projects under that umbrella than any given desktop.

KDE4 is not only about the common end user, its about a large re-work of the API for us developers who use it

[WebDrake]

It is just that I have heard this argument many times and I think it's a bit unfair to still quote the license issue, when we are not really company representatives. Granted, GTK is more appealing to companies because it gives them more flexibility. I still feel that Qt provides more for developers.

Agree on all counts. We certainly have no moral reason to complain and even any practical issues like the ones I've mentioned are a judgement call.

I've not worked with GUI development but I have the strong impression that Qt is a significantly superior piece of work to GTK+. And I'm really looking forward to KDE4. :)

[WebDrake]

KDE4 is not only about the common end user, its about a large re-work of the API for us developers who use it

Indeed, if the surface experience changes too dramatically it could be a very bad thing for the end user. I'm hoping that one of the biggest benefits will be making it much easier for people to write and maintain applications.

[wolfen69]

every kde distro ive tried is way too buggy. ive given kde more than enough chances. i'm done with it. gnome works flawlessly for me everytime.

[Freddy]

every kde distro ive tried is way too buggy. ive given kde more than enough chances. i'm done with it. gnome works flawlessly for me everytime.
Thanks for letting us know.

Why do every Gnome fanboi have to let us know that KDE suck in every threads such as this? It might be because every KDE fanboi have to bash Gnome in every "I like Gnome" threads. Personally I adore KDE, I'm a fan of Gnome and in love with Enlightenment17, it's all good but in different ways. I'm really looking forward to KDE 4, not for the looks really, but for their chances to redo some of the things gone bad with it, I hope for a somewhat slicker system but at the same time as powerful as it is now.

[mips]

Thanks for letting us know.

Why do every Gnome fanboi have to let us know that KDE suck in every threads such as this? It might be because every KDE fanboi have to bash Gnome in every "I like Gnome" threads. Personally I adore KDE, I'm a fan of Gnome and in love with Enlightenment17, it's all good but in different ways. I'm really looking forward to KDE 4, not for the looks really, but for their chances to redo some of the things gone bad with it, I hope for a somewhat slicker system but at the same time as powerful as it is now.

Leave them be. It kinda reminds me of religion... sad to say.

[EtniesBMX]

You know the funny thing about "hypes" like these? They're usually made and magnified more by users than the developers themselves. KDE devs say that KDE 4 would be lighter thanks to Qt 4, users go around saying KDE 4 will be awesome. KDE devs say that this or that feature will be included, users will say KDE 4 will be awesome. The irony of it is there is no means for these users to actually verify these things, because all that has been done up to now are on the code level, and nothing usable yet by non-developers.

Whether KDE 4 is a hype or not, only time will tell. We'll only be able to really judge it when it comes out in a usable form (the tech preview in October does not count). Until then, we could only judge its progress if we are constantly monitoring developments in every way possible (SVN builds, Planet KDE, etc.)

I can't really blame users, though. It seems to be only human nature. Just look at all the excitement around Dapper. I think the same atmosphere will surround GNOME once it starts to "publicly" work on 3.x.

this is posted on the kde plasma page:

"Plasma will deliver new looks for most traditional panel elements, an extensions system designed for beautiful results and graphic treatments that will firmly cement it as the desktop by which others are measured."

this definitely leads one to think that it should be amazing...

[EXCiD3]

I really hope KDE 4 is what I am looking for in a desktop manager. I like GNOME but it isnt advanced enough, KDE3 is not exactly what I want either and I prefer GNOME over it atm...Hopefully KDE4 will fill that gap! *crosses fingers*