Has anyone seen what MS is up to?

[irv]

What I see coming is total control of the Personal PC World by MS.
MS is working on Windows 10 S Which is like Win10 but does completely with Win32 apps. The only Browser that will work will be Microsoft Edge. Hey, Didn't MS have trouble a few years ago with trying to monopolize the browser market and that failed?
Reading an article on ZDNet, (http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-windows-must-die-for-the-third-time/?loc=newsletter_large_thumb_featured&ftag=TRE17cfd61&bhid=27083111410508975466348956972958)it said that Chrome browser is a casualty. Here is the Quote.


"CHROME BROWSER A CASUALTY
A casualty of those sandboxing rules is Google's Chrome browser. For security reasons, Microsoft is not permitting desktop browsers to be ported to the Store. In theory, Google could build its own compatible UWP browser, but it would bear little resemblance to Chrome on the desktop. The default browser, for now, is Microsoft Edge, period.

As it stands, you also can't change the default search engine to Google from Bing either. All of this is done under the auspices of improved security.

Obviously, not everyone is going to be able to run an OS like Windows 10 S overnight. So Microsoft is using the Surface Laptop and other low-cost systems in the $200 to $300 range made by OEMs as a trial balloon to test the waters of the end-user market.

Who is Microsoft targeting? Education and Home users and those who mostly use the browser to do daily tasks and don't use legacy desktop-based line of business applications. That's the exact same demographic that Google is targeting with Chrome OS."

I can see what they are doing coming out with cheap PC to get People hooked on using Windows and the software in their store, and they will have a monopoly on not only the OS and Browser but on all the Software as well. By doing this, it is going to put Open Source Software in a spot. Right now they can write code for their software that will run on different platforms, but if they are writing for Linux and Windows, it won't work.
Someone need to step in and see that is not free enterprise, this is control.

[QIII]

Isn't this exactly the same complaint/warning/worry everyone has had about Microsoft for years?

Microsoft, remember, has recognized the value of its Azure platform. Most of the OSes running on Azure are Linux. Microsoft added WSL to Win10. Nothing like advertising to your PC customers that you have given in and have been assimilated by the Borg.

[sp40140]

Well, the thing is this surface laptops start at $999 USD. And they are targeting it at schools. And schools have been migrating to 200-300 USD chrombooks with much simpler management tools.
So there is no competition with chrombooks (even though MS claims and media has not disputed it much). There are some places which claim that this is for college going students, well win10 S works even less for that customer base.
And on the $999 USD price range, you get lot more quality and full windows (which runs all apps including win32). So, it will be much harder to compete there.
As it is today, I don't think this is going to be a success. Unless MS has something which they haven't made public yet.
MS makes good hardware. But just hardware. Not the software. In recent times they have made progress, but still historically they have had bad OS and they have to work on it. So, they are in trouble.
They should have just focused a lot more Surface pro and leveraged the high praise it got.
So, to your point, Win 10 S is going to fail.

[irv]

I watched this video (https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/2/15506378/microsoft-windows-10-s-os-operating-system-announced-features), and it said that a user could switch from 10 S to 10 pro on the fly and install software that is not in the store. I think they are doing this to bring users over to 10 S. I am not sure I agree that 10 S will fail.
It might not happen overnight, but they are moving to take over the Personal PC market. With higher security, they are trying to get the IT managers to jump on the Windows 10 bandwagon.
EDIT: another good link on this subject. THE VERGE (https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/10/15609706/google-chrome-windows-10-s-app-restrictions)

[sp40140]

Yes, MS allows you to purchase the ability to run win32 apps for additional fee of $50. That's just standard Win10. And so nothing special. And beats the whole 10 "S" thing.
MS already has Personal PC market. Unix/Linux never had it. In fact Google took some market share from MS from just one market which is education. And MS is selling this win 10 S to Ed sector. And that's why I say this product is not for Ed market.
IT managers are already on MS bandwagon (only the Ed sector is bit different with competition from google). The thing is IT managers mostly deal with internal or very specialized software for that particular market. And the software used there are never going to make it to the MS store. Ex, a developer who uses Eclipse IDE. I don't see Eclipse ever going to MS store. So the IT managers will have to go for full win 10. Which they already do today.
So, I don't see anything special to win 10 S. But just more headache for IT managers if they go to win 10 S.

[mastablasta]

interesting. many pages still don't work propperly in Edge. they work in Chrome, Firefox and IE. but not in edge.

[exhile]

Bill Gates is no longer at the helm of Microsoft so its anti-competitive practices like that of the Windows 95/98/2000 era are gone. Also, the browser wars have a new dominant player which is Google Chrome not IE or Edge. The Windows 10 S edition is aimed at the education market to get youngsters hooked on Windows and Edge. Microsoft's plan may or may not work but only the future can tell if Microsoft's plan to get their Surface Laptop into the education market works. The Personal PC market dominated by Windows is shrinking and the Smart Phone market dominated by Google Android & Apple iOS is growing.

[TheFu]

Do we really care what MSFT does? I haven't cared since their Win10 EULA says they could rifle through all my files and do whatever they wanted, sharing the data as they like, without my prior approval. The first hint something was smelly came with the Win10 keylogger during the alpha releases - which has never been disabled.

BTW, they tried to push that same EULA onto Win8 and Win7 users in a patch. I rejected those patches. Think that is partially why MSFT started grouping all their patches and not specifying security from non-security patches. Was easier to just stop patching my 2 remaining Windows systems than to give up my freedoms. Had to lock down what those boxes could do and everything around them on the network. It has been over a year now without patches. No issues. I don't expect any problems until they break the entire reason I still run Windows (TV recordings) at all.

I never saw Bill Gates as the bad guy. It was always that other guy ... the crazy, loud mouth, who was the megalomaniac - Steve something.

Anyone else see the Pwn2Own failures in MSFT-Edge on Windows? Saw a bunch of new advisories of total ownership.
https://www.zerodayinitiative.com/blog/2017/3/17/the-results-pwn2own-2017-day-three

The 10th anniversary of Pwn2Own just successfully completed as the Zero Day Initiative spent $833,000 acquiring 51 different 0-day bugs.

[Dragonbite]

Microsoft is not hiding it's desire to take on Chromebooks in the Education market with Windows S. The problem is, for Microsoft, is that I don't think they have realized all of the advantages Google provides such as ease of management and integration of different services plus it integrates with all of the cloud offerings that one can use either with Chromebooks or with your own computer and a browser. My kids' school uses Google Classroom and while the school uses Chromebooks, at home they use their own computers.

I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft tries to use the argument for Edge being the only one available of Google's Chrome OS doesn't allow you to install a different browser on it. Not being able to switch the search engine, however, is the sticking point that should come back and haunt them at some time.

Microsoft's hardware offerings are going for the upper-tier market which is why their Surface Laptop starts at $999 and drastically increases in price for any change in configuration up to over $2000! They are, and it seems nobody has come forward yet, "expecting" that other manufacturers will offer Windows S cheaper devices for schools in the $200-300 range (source (http://www.pcworld.com/article/3193977/computers/googles-surging-chromebooks-will-test-microsofts-new-windows-10-s-pcs.html)). This expectation, I think, comes in part because a few big manufacturers are offering Chromebooks in that range and Microsoft seems to think they will retool to sell Windows S devices for the same price. I don't know if the OEMs were consulted on this, though.

One person I talked with in comments did point out that the price range of the Surface Laptop is well within the range for kids tote to college (he said kids take $1,300 laptops with them, I can't confirm that yet). So Microsoft may be pushing theirs for college students to take (and try to counter Macbooks) and leave the K-12 market to those already trying to get in (and don't mind a paper-thin margin).

I tried configuring a System76 Galago Pro (https://system76.com/laptops/galago) with similar stats to the Microsoft Surface Laptop (https://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/productID.5102691100?icid=en_US_homepage_hero1_Sur face%20Laptop_5.2.17) and the System76 was $200-300 LESS to an "equivalent" (or as close as I could get) configured system. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft is hoping to make that sort of a margin off of each of their machines.

But Microsoft knows the era of the desktop is dwindling and that is why they are hoping to push everything to subscriptions (Office 365), cloud (Azure) and nice devices (Hololens). As Chromebooks have shown, the OS is less and less relevant and if they want to survive they will have to adapt.

This is my opinion from articles I've read and all. Am I missing anything?

[mastablasta]

mor einteresting is googl edeveloping new smartphone OS witout Linux kernel and with BSD like and other similar worded licences to avoid GPL.

[TheFu]

mor einteresting is googl edeveloping new smartphone OS witout Linux kernel and with BSD like and other similar worded licences to avoid GPL.

As a business owner, I avoided the GPL and always preferred BSD/MIT/Apache/Perl licenses. Can't blame anyone for doing that.

Google offers many things with their education Chromebooks, not just the HW, SW, Management, but they also acclimate children into the google ecosphere with all that entails.

It is a scary world out there. Data wants to get out. That applies to every company and govt. Eventually, it will be released one way or another. It is best not to retain any data that isn't absolutely necessary.

[sp40140]

Google creating their own OS is good thing in my thinking. Uses of "computer" have changed a lot. And so is the form factor of the "computer". And we have been using very old OSs on new form factors. Something something in the square peg! Linux / Windows and even iOS are showing their age on mobile. New OS has lots of good things going if implemented properly. And it looks that way at least as they are using micro kernel. It's about time that someone came up with modern os which fits today's use cases and users.

[again?]

Just another step in microsoft taking ownership of the desktop PC of the uninformed masses.
hmmm...we missed the mobile market... the developers have fled... maybe we can create an iphone like ecosystem on all these PCs we've got...phase out win32 apps...
implement an app store... bit of secure boot here... more lockdown over here...we've always put security first. :rolleyes:

But uncle Billy none of my old applications work.
No problem there kiddo, just go to our store and purchase shiny new ones or subscribe to our cloud services.
\\:D/ Developers... developers... developers... \\:D/

Now with these UWP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Windows_Platform) apps lets have another crack at the mobile market.

[TheFu]

I'm not a fan of MSFT at all, but Linux apps aren't exactly forwards compatible at the binary level either. That's the nature of software, all applications break on newer systems. Bill Gates hasn't been at MSFT in 9 yrs, BTW. The only reason Linux seems to support older applications is that we have the source code and can recompile for newer APIs. Without that freedom (as in free beer recipe), we'd be totally screwed too - or running old OS emulators everywhere.

I'll be happy if the new google OS dumps Java. That was a terrible mistake that many companies have been taken in by. Should be using C/C++ or any compiled language on a portable device. Apple make that choice, correctly, IMHO.

[sp40140]

I'm not a fan of MSFT at all, but Linux apps aren't exactly forwards compatible at the binary level either. That's the nature of software, all applications break on newer systems. Bill Gates hasn't been at MSFT in 9 yrs, BTW. The only reason Linux seems to support older applications is that we have the source code and can recompile for newer APIs. Without that freedom (as in free beer recipe), we'd be totally screwed too - or running old OS emulators everywhere.

I'll be happy if the new google OS dumps Java. That was a terrible mistake that many companies have been taken in by. Should be using C/C++ or any compiled language on a portable device. Apple make that choice, correctly, IMHO.

Completely agree with you.

[again?]

....Bill Gates hasn't been at MSFT in 9 yrs, BTW. ....
Yeah I know but sounds better than Uncle Satya. ;)

[pqwoerituytrueiwoq]

Sounds like a replacement for the windows 7 starter edition (IIRC you could not even change the wallpaper)

[craig10x]

Don't fall off your chairs, but after the next Windows 10 upgrade in the fall, guess what is going to be available to install in the "windows store"? (that's where you get apps in windows 10):
http://news.softpedia.com/news/hell-is-freezing-over-part-2-ubuntu-launched-in-microsoft-s-windows-store-515638.shtml

[1fallen]

Don't fall off your chairs, but after the next Windows 10 upgrade in the fall, guess what is going to be available to install in the "windows store"? (that's where you get apps in windows 10):
http://news.softpedia.com/news/hell-is-freezing-over-part-2-ubuntu-launched-in-microsoft-s-windows-store-515638.shtml

I know you said not to...but after reading your link...I'm flat on the floor...;)
But this leaves my spider sense's just tingling with wonder.

[craig10x]

LOL...I knew that would shake things up here :)

yep...Ubuntu will be an installable app in the windows 10 store...:D

By the way, the devices that come with windows 10s (their version of chromebook) can be upgraded for free on MS laptops or for a small fee on other brands laptops that will come with 10s...
Ubuntu will be available for both standard windows 10 and 10s as well of course...

I was a an ubuntu user for quite a few years, often trying the latest version of windows but then coming right back to ubuntu ...However, i did become a fan of windows 10 (and think it's the best version they ever made) and it did win me back and it's my main OS now...i look at the latest windows articles on softpedia every day and when i saw the article, i was floored and thought i'd bring it to the attention of those on the ubuntu forum...

[vasa1]

LOL...I knew that would shake things up here :)

yep...Ubuntu will be an installable app in the windows 10 store...:D
...
I read it will not be the same as the desktop version.

Anyway, fortunately or otherwise, I don't see any need for it myself. So, not shaken, not stirred.

[craig10x]

@vasa1: Yeah, that is the confusing part for me...they don't really explain if they mean a full blown version of ubuntu or just the stuff that a developer might use for linux related development ...Because they say everyone would be able to install it implies it would be a full blown version and yet it doesn't quite sound like it would be...They really should have explained it better...

[sp40140]

Don't fall off your chairs, but after the next Windows 10 upgrade in the fall, guess what is going to be available to install in the "windows store"? (that's where you get apps in windows 10):
http://news.softpedia.com/news/hell-is-freezing-over-part-2-ubuntu-launched-in-microsoft-s-windows-store-515638.shtml

Everybody has great ideas.. In the business world execution matters. And MS really really sucks badly at execution. Example: WinFS, All of their phones, Nokia (they could have leapfrogged Apple and Google with good execution here) and on and on..

So, my point is... wait until you see how it's implemented.
And anyways, I use Ubuntu. Don't see any need to run windows and slap ubuntu on top of it. It's like running ubuntu in VM. It's already available today anyways..

[Dragonbite]

By the way, the devices that come with windows 10s (their version of chromebook) can be upgraded for free on MS laptops or for a small fee on other brands laptops that will come with 10s...

They are offering the upgrade to Windows 10 Pro for free only until 12/31/2017. After that they are charging $50 for the upgrade.

With the latest update (Creator version) you are supposed to be able to lock down the machine to the point it will not install any non-store app or comes up with a confirmation message. Any non-store applications installed before you turn this feature on will continue to work and self-update as before, but no new applications will be installed.

It actually is a handy feature if you are like the "Family IT person" so you can set the user up with what they need (Chrome, Firefox, LibreOffice, Photoshop, etc) and then lock it down so they cannot install anything else, even accidentally, unless it comes through the store (and presumably been vetted and cleared).

[TheFu]

i did become a fan of windows 10 (and think it's the best version they ever made) and it did win me back and it's my main OS now...

Guess you've never read the EULA included with Windows 10?
https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/privacystatement ... this is the version linked from the link that is linked from the link in the Win10 OS install. 3 levels of indirection. Why is that?

[Dragonbite]

@vasa1: Yeah, that is the confusing part for me...they don't really explain if they mean a full blown version of ubuntu or just the stuff that a developer might use for linux related development ...Because they say everyone would be able to install it implies it would be a full blown version and yet it doesn't quite sound like it would be...They really should have explained it better...

Linux bash on Windows 10 is not a full-blown Ubuntu (/Fedora/SUSE) distribution. It is the bash shell that works on top of the Windows kernel. It gives you access to the repositories and features.

I haven't fooled around with it much but there is an add-on piece that allows you to run GUI applications on this Bash shell, but it is not fully supported.

I haven't tried it yet but I theorize you could run a LAMP stack on it or other CLI services such as SSH (without having to install and run PuTTY in Windows 10).

I tried getting the full version of Minecraft working because on my Windows 10 laptop the full version won't work (error about the OpenGL or something), but the same error came up when I tried running it through the Ubuntu bash.

That doesn't mean, however, that I couldn't use the bash shell for running an Ubuntu server, or in theory a LAMP server.

It may, or may not, eliminate the need to use Cygwin

[1fallen]

Just Linux for me.;)
For me....and I am trying to be as polite as possible here:
Privacy, Choice...not lack of.

[exhile]

Single sign-on account to the web and cloud storage are a few features that all Linux distributions lack. Linux is good at reviving legacy computer systems and the web server market. Windows 10 S is definitely aimed at Chrome OS in the education market. I applaud Microsoft's effort to provide an alternative to Chrome OS since a duopoly is better than a monopoly. It's just like the alternatives of various Linux O/S's.

Windows 10 is a good O/S since it doesn't freeze or crash as much as Ubuntu and your paying for what you get.

[craig10x]

And people always bring up privacy issues of windows 10 but frankly, Microsoft is not interested on what music or video files i have on my computer or monitoring my e-mail, etc...They are only interested in improving windows...so whatever data is supplied to them through windows 10 is purely for that purpose...You have more active "spying" on you when you use a lot of the search engines like yahoo, google, etc...

What won me over about windows 10 is it is NOT at all like the previous versions...It's actually rather nice to use on a day to day basis...i didn't feel the same about the previous versions...Also, it looks far nicer too..much more modern and i love the start menu with the tiles which are a great way to quickly launch all the apps i use...

Hate the Edge Browser though...Internet Explorer even was far better..However... i use Google Chrome which rounds out windows 10 perfectly....:D

[vasa1]

@vasa1: Yeah, that is the confusing part for me...they don't really explain if they mean a full blown version of ubuntu or just the stuff that a developer might use for linux related development ...Because they say everyone would be able to install it implies it would be a full blown version and yet it doesn't quite sound like it would be...They really should have explained it better...Well, Mark Twain said something about something going 'round the world before its opposite could get its pants on ;)

Corporates are good at spinning stuff perhaps in the belief that the only thing worse than being bad-mouthed is to be ignored.

So, and this was quite easy to point out in the first post itself, what is being offered is this:
With Bash and WSL, you can run most Linux shell tools. These include: apt, ssh, rsync, find, grep, awk, sed, sort, xargs, md5sum, gpg, curl, wget, tar, vim, emacs, diff, and patch. You can also run popular open-source programming languages such as python, perl, ruby, php, and gcc. In addition, WSL and Bash supports server programs such as the Apache web-server and Oracle's MySQL database management system. In short, you get a capable Linux development environment running on Windows.from http://www.zdnet.com/article/its-the-year-of-linux-on-the-windows-desktop/

[craig10x]

@vasa1: yes, your linked article explains it sooo much better...:) Wish i had seen it first (rather than softpedia's)...

[again?]

...They are only interested in improving windows...so whatever data is supplied to them through windows 10 is purely for that purpose...

Yeah right. Enjoy your overlord's targeted advertising platform. :rolleyes:

[craig10x]

@guber2: again...it's no worse then when you use yahoo or google...frankly, i don't even notice anything...also, you can control quite a bit in the privacy settings...The rest (as i mentioned) helps them improve the system so as far as i am concerned, that is just fine...As i mentioned, i was a pretty steady linux user from around 2009 or so (when i registered with this forum) and as i tried each new version of windows for a while, i always found myself drifting back to ubuntu (or linux mint) after trying windows 10, and seeing all the excellent refinements that had been made (not to mention the great performance of windows defender which keeps the system very secure) i didn't find myself drifting back again... :mrgreen:

I also liked that there would be no further versions...that windows 10 will just be a rolling type system with automatic upgrades on an average of about 2 times per year...As far as linux goes, i still think Ubuntu is the best of all the distros out there...but as i said, i am very satisfied with Windows 10...

[vasa1]

... but as i said, i am very satisfied with Windows 10...
Got the message loud and clear :)

[again?]

@guber2: again...it's no worse then when you use yahoo or google...frankly, i don't even notice anything...also, you can control quite a bit in the privacy settings...The rest (as i mentioned) helps them improve the system so as far as i am concerned, that is just fine...As i mentioned, i was a pretty steady linux user from around 2009 or so (when i registered with this forum) and as i tried each new version of windows for a while, i always found myself drifting back to ubuntu (or linux mint) after trying windows 10, and seeing all the excellent refinements that had been made (not to mention the great performance of windows defender which keeps the system very secure) i didn't find myself drifting back again... :mrgreen:

I also liked that there would be no further versions...that windows 10 will just be a rolling type system with automatic upgrades on an average of about 2 times per year...As far as linux goes, i still think Ubuntu is the best of all the distros out there...but as i said, i am very satisfied with Windows 10...
Even though it was about 8 years ago I had enough confidence in my linux knowledge to ditch Windows, I still remember the joy
of having full control and ownership of my PC.
If you understand where Microsoft is heading with Windows and have no qualms about it... good luck to you.

[sp40140]

@guber2: again...it's no worse then when you use yahoo or google...frankly, i don't even notice anything...also, you can control quite a bit in the privacy settings...The rest (as i mentioned) helps them improve the system so as far as i am concerned, that is just fine...As i mentioned, i was a pretty steady linux user from around 2009 or so (when i registered with this forum) and as i tried each new version of windows for a while, i always found myself drifting back to ubuntu (or linux mint) after trying windows 10, and seeing all the excellent refinements that had been made (not to mention the great performance of windows defender which keeps the system very secure) i didn't find myself drifting back again... :mrgreen:

I also liked that there would be no further versions...that windows 10 will just be a rolling type system with automatic upgrades on an average of about 2 times per year...As far as linux goes, i still think Ubuntu is the best of all the distros out there...but as i said, i am very satisfied with Windows 10...
If you are happy with Windows.. great. Nothing wrong with it.
But Yahoo & google are totally DIFFERENT from MS. MS charges you $100 + to use their software (I would even say force you.. but it's different topic).
Yahoo & google provide all their services for FREE. And frankly, I see that they do much better job.
Many people compare MS to google... Well it's not same. One thing I keep repeating is that MS never cared for end users. And that's true even today.

[vasa1]

And awaiting the rebuttal until ...

[exhile]

I agree that Google is the new Microsoft and both software companies have different methods of generating revenue. Yahoo & Google services may look like they are free but it's the time that you, the user spends on those free applications that you are paying for. I disagree that MS never cared for end users or else why wouldn't MS be distributing (Release Candidates) for their server & desktop o/s's prior to official launches. MS wants input from end users to improve their products.

[craig10x]

I don't use any pay for apps on windows...in fact, have many fine apps installed that are absolutely free (which is most of them) also, windows mail works very nice...could never really find a mail program i liked much on linux...And some of the apps i use from the windows store aren't even available on linux...MS is not the boogie man...actually, the new head of the company has a much different approach...I think linux is great and it's used on so many things these days (including android phones of course) but as i said, windows is very much different now than it use to be...and i mean in positive ways...

The one negative i find is the Edge Browser which i think is really bad news...as i said, internet explorer was far better...but with Chrome i am happy with the system...if edge was the only browser that could be used on windows 10, i'd be back to ubuntu in a heart beat....lol

[sp40140]

I disagree that MS never cared for end users or else why wouldn't MS be distributing (Release Candidates) for their server & desktop o/s's prior to official launches. MS wants input from end users to improve their products.
Evidence shows opposite:
1] Vista- if MS had heard / cared for user feedback, it never would have been released.
2] Windows 8 - same as above (some apologists talk about 8.1. well, same.. why didn't they do it in first place).
3] Historically their CEO shouts " We love developers". I haven't heard same about users.
4] Even with new CEO look at win10. NOBODY is happy about privacy settings. IF MS cared for users, it would disable data gathering.
In fact MS takes a step back with one version and fixes the issues in second one. And people cheer the second version cause it fixed the mess of first. But it doesn't make much progress.
These are just top of my head...
Server market is different. It's a different conversation.

[monkeybrain20122]

Don't fall off your chairs, but after the next Windows 10 upgrade in the fall, guess what is going to be available to install in the "windows store"? (that's where you get apps in windows 10):
http://news.softpedia.com/news/hell-is-freezing-over-part-2-ubuntu-launched-in-microsoft-s-windows-store-515638.shtml

What is the big deal? There was a thing called Wubi a few years ago which did exactly that, to install Ubuntu in Windows as a kind of enticement when it was not very well known. But Ubuntu has outgrown it long ago, now if ones want Ubuntu why would he/she wants the Windows overhead?

[vasa1]

... now if ones want Ubuntu why would he/she wants the Windows overhead?
I cam across a link which claims that several PC makers have restricted availability of low-cost PCs without any commercial OS. Unfortunately, I cannot post that link here because it also has content that may not be appropriate for this forum. The author is calling for antitrust action.

[QIII]

What is the big deal? There was a thing called Wubi a few years ago which did exactly that, to install Ubuntu in Windows as a kind of enticement when it was not very well known. But Ubuntu has outgrown it long ago, now if ones want Ubuntu why would he/she wants the Windows overhead?

Wubi installed in a loop device, not "inside Windows" exactly.

[Dragonbite]

@guber2: again...it's no worse then when you use yahoo or google...frankly, i don't even notice anything...also, you can control quite a bit in the privacy settings...The rest (as i mentioned) helps them improve the system so as far as i am concerned, that is just fine...As i mentioned, i was a pretty steady linux user from around 2009 or so (when i registered with this forum) and as i tried each new version of windows for a while, i always found myself drifting back to ubuntu (or linux mint) after trying windows 10, and seeing all the excellent refinements that had been made (not to mention the great performance of windows defender which keeps the system very secure) i didn't find myself drifting back again... :mrgreen:

I also liked that there would be no further versions...that windows 10 will just be a rolling type system with automatic upgrades on an average of about 2 times per year...As far as linux goes, i still think Ubuntu is the best of all the distros out there...but as i said, i am very satisfied with Windows 10...

I agree that Windows 10 is probably their best version so far. I also remember the first time I installed Windows 10 my thought was that it was the most Linux-like Windows so far (in a good way).

I also feel like I have to sleep with one eye open, watching Microsoft. Not so much of them doing something malicious as doing something really "bone-headed". Like removing Live applications for limited, inferior applications (Photos vs Live Photo Manager, {nothing} vs Live Movie Maker and DVD burning). I also found my privacy settings reset after an update.

Their problems also stems from them being a proprietary system. You just can't be 100% sure what's going on. Unless you look through the code for Linux, you can't be 100% sure either but I trust there would be a loud clamor if the community and people who DO look through the code finds something.

Do I have a Windows 10 system? Yes. Do I have an Ubuntu system? Yes. They each provide me some feature(s) that the other doesn't, or doesn't easily.

A rolling release sound fine, sounds great in fact. I've used openSUSE Tumbleweed which is an excellent rolling release distribution. They use QA and testing software to help keep everything stable and working and they do a great job with it. But I also know that there are some "gotchas" and opportunities prone to errors that Microsoft hasn't gone through yet. Microsoft is not that great about seeing issues that show up in the open source and Linux community, and addressing them proactively yet.

It is quite interesting watching Microsoft from the vantage point of years of using Linux. My experience grants me insight my non-Linux using friends don't notice or see.

[craig10x]

@dragonbite: great comparison...i think part of the reason i like windows 10 so much is because it has a very modern interface (unlike earlier versions) and since they got rid of metro from windows 8 (which i didn't care for) it's very smooth and nice to use...also i like the concept of windows store and adding all kinds of nice apps (for example: although i use the itunes and iheart radio stream apps, i also found a great 3rd party streamer app called mini radio player which has all the stations of the other two tuners...

Also, i found a great dvd burner that is free and is better then anything i used on linux (and unfortunately, they don't have a linux version)...Store apps are easy to add and remove, so you can experiment with different ones...And with all the windows defender improvements, it is the first time i have felt very secure using a windows system...as secure as i felt when using ubuntu...

The twice a year upgrades, i have found, go very smooth and all my data stuff, installed apps and settings carry over beautifully...And having the "Insiders Program" is a great boost for the quality control of the system as it goes through it's various changes over time...Also, you can clean install a pure windows 10 system (removing the manufacturers bloatware) which i do whenever i buy a new computer... ;)

[QIII]

Just another step in microsoft taking ownership of the desktop PC of the uninformed masses.

That had already happened somewhere between 1984 and 1987 ...

[vasa1]

If it weren't for threads such as this, I'd never have known how wonderful a certain operating system is.

Just to balance things out: Locked in by choice: How European governments are handling their Microsoft addiction (http://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Locked-in-by-choice-how-European-governments-are-handling-their-Microsoft-addiction). But its obviously more than just Europe ...

[again?]

That had already happened somewhere between 1984 and 1987 ...
Microsofts implementation of secure boot wasn't around in 1987 which can make it a lot harder
for the curious to test an alternative.

[QIII]

Microsofts implementation of secure boot wasn't around in 1987 which can make it a lot harder
for the curious to test an alternative.

Microsoft locked up the desktop PC by 1987, with or without secure boot. Microsoft hasn't made any effort to "take over the PC" since then. They've only maintained.

Secure boot is a speedbump that ended up being a wasted effort for Microsoft.

[again?]

It can make creating a dual boot harder which is how I and many others graduated to Linux over time.

[QIII]

And?

Microsoft convinced the world that Windows == PC and PC == Windows by the mid '80s. That's all they needed to do.

If you tell someone your computer does not run Windows, you generally get "Oh, it's an Apple?". When you say "No", the eyes glaze over and a bead of drool dribbles from the corner of the mouth. 90% of people still cannot conceive of the notion that there IS an alternative. Microsoft didn't need to make trying an alternative harder.

Microsoft's biggest "worry" is guys like me, who were at this well before Microsoft graduated from building a compiler to building an OS.

[vasa1]

... Microsoft didn't need to make trying an alternative harder.
...
While that may be true, they did and probably still are ;)

[again?]

Yeah ok ,your not telling me anything new here.
In my opinion secure boot was partly implemented to make trying an alternative harder
which I regard as taking greater ownership of my PC.

[QIII]

I'm not trying to tell you anything new.

Microsoft "taking ownership of the PC" is nothing new. They already did it long ago.

I find it not worth the emotional effort to get suddenly wrapped around the axle about what Microsoft already did 30 years ago. Linux owns a lot more of the landscape now than does Windows. We won by an order of magnitude. Let's move on. No need for Microsoft alarmism.

[7dEfOk4AgU]

Does it really matter? I have always chosen or recommended to clients the OS that best fits the purpose be it Windows, MacOS, Linux or ChromeOS. I do not evangelise any one particular OS nor do I knock any one OS. I will say I believe that over the last three years Microsoft have become more open and certainly more accepting and supporting of competing products. More and more their products are becoming cross platform and this is very good for them and the customer.

[again?]

I'm not trying to tell you anything new.

Microsoft "taking ownership of the PC" is nothing new. They already did it long ago.

I find it not worth the emotional effort to get suddenly wrapped around the axle about what Microsoft already did 30 years ago. Linux owns a lot more of the landscape now than does Windows. We won by an order of magnitude. Let's move on. No need for Microsoft alarmism.
It's not alarmist or emotional for that matter...it's just a discussion where I like to express my opinion and listen to others
without being told to "move on".
I no longer use microsoft products but still keep a keen interest and I am not a Linux evangelist.

Windows 10s represents the direction in which microsoft would like to go with the Windows desktop
and slowly but surely is heading in that direction.
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-has-effectively-banned-third-party-browsers-from-the-windows-store/

[mastablasta]

Windows 10s represents the direction in which microsoft would like to go with the Windows desktop
and slowly but surely is heading in that direction.


they would want it yet, but will they get there? hardly. many apps that work in IE don't work in Edge. so you can scratch the Win10S from businesses. many home users let alone gamers would like to install whatever they wanted, so you can remove those as well. what you are left with is maybe students/limited browsing use, but there is chromebook for that which is what the 10S is really compeeting with here. that segment is not present in my country at all (i guess market is too small). Well at least google is not.

Windows had something similar with Win7 starter. in it you can't change the background, it only supports up to 2 GB ram, comes in 32bit only and has other limits. the Win7 starter users were offered a free upgrade to Win 10 home. an i have to say i was tempted, as the notebook i have can actualyl uprgade the ram from 2 to up to 8GB. but i decided to stay on 7 since i didn't know if 10 will work well (not even HP support was able to tell me that at the time), i didn't want to deal with constant upgrades and possible breakages. so 7 starter stayed (supported until 2019) and the other side of the disk has a 64 bit Kubuntu 14.04 also supported until 2019, when i will upgrade it.

windows now discovered stores and various other walled gardens and started promoting them heavilly. it backfired with Xbox vs. PS4 (where they had to do "some changes") and if they force it on general OS versions it will backfire terribly there as well. still some users might accept the policy, but they store should really be full of stuff (incl. and perhaps especially games/entertainment apps) like in Google play or Apple Store or whatever it's called. as it is now, mostly there are useless apps in the windows store.

[sp40140]

Does it really matter? I have always chosen or recommended to clients the OS that best fits the purpose be it Windows, MacOS, Linux or ChromeOS. I do not evangelise any one particular OS nor do I knock any one OS. I will say I believe that over the last three years Microsoft have become more open and certainly more accepting and supporting of competing products. More and more their products are becoming cross platform and this is very good for them and the customer.

In a sense they are more open. Bringing MS SQL Server to run on linux.
However, I will be really happy the day they bring Office to linux! They day they drop DirectX in favor of Open source alt.

[LastDino]

In a sense they are more open. Bringing MS SQL Server to run on linux.
However, I will be really happy the day they bring Office to linux! They day they drop DirectX in favor of Open source alt.

Amen to that, not because Linux options don't work, but because same document if Opened in MS office usually encounters lot of formatting issues, it becomes too much hassle :(

Not that I'm too positive about MS in general, but they are not really doing anything differently than one large scale business shouldn't be doing to maintain its market share and grow. Even if it has to use some slightly questionable methods. That's kind of business101 for most successful organizations and MS is no exception to that.

[monkeybrain20122]

However, I will be really happy the day they bring Office to linux!

Why? So that they can expand their monopoly by perpetuating their proprietary format? What really annoys me is that most people can do as well with Libreoffice but they help to perpetuate MS's incompatible formats by going out of their ways to get pirate MSO and then complain that LO does not have good enough compatibility. The only way to solve the compatibility problem is to move away from MS's closed formats. I have regularly get documents in xlsx or docx. There is absolutely no reason to do that, it is just out of habit or "convenience".

[LastDino]

Why? So that they can expand their monopoly by perpetuating their proprietary format? What really annoys me is that most people can do as well with Libreoffice but they help to perpetuate MS's incompatible formats by going out of their ways to get pirate MSO and then complain that LO does not have good enough compatibility. The only way to solve the compatibility problem is to move away from MS's closed formats. I have regularly get documents in xlsx or docx. There is absolutely no reason to do that, it is just out of habit or "convenience".

Believe me I've tried this, even went as far as converting documents in PDF so they can be viewed on Windows with how they are intended to be.

BUT

Then the receiver complained as to why it is not in editable word format for proof reading and corrections. This habit or convenience needs to be changed from the school/collage level, I was at least lucky that my Uni had Linux as default in provided hardware for student use but still had to do this LO>>MS things quite a lot. And again, good PDF editors are not free, at least not for everyday users who use Adobe mostly (We have adobe there playing the big guy)

As much as I would love still the problem exists and one simply can't take risk with things like Resume and Research papers..

[monkeybrain20122]

Believe me I've tried this, even went as far as converting documents in PDF so they can be viewed on Windows with how they are intended to be.

BUT

Then the receiver complained as to why it is not in editable word format for proof reading and corrections. This habit or convenience needs to be changed from the school/collage level, I was at least lucky that my Uni had Linux as default in provided hardware for student use but still had to do this LO>>MS things quite a lot. And again, good PDF editors are not free, at least not for everyday users who use Adobe mostly (We have adobe there playing the big guy)

As much as I would love still the problem exists and one simply can't take risk with things like Resume and Research papers..

I send out stuffs in odf. No one has complained so far. MSO is supposed to open these formats.

Resumes are not supposed to be editable so I think .pdf should be ok. Research papers in my field are all in Latex, using any Office suit would indeed be very unprofessional.

P.S I have actually converted one professor to LO. I was a TA for him. I sent him the grades in odt. He asked me what was that. I explained that I am not going to use MSO unless the university paid for it and the windows license. :) he tried out LO and thought that it was very cool that it was free. So he started using it himself.

[LastDino]

I send out stuffs in odf. No one has complained so far. MSO is supposed to open these formats.

Resumes are not supposed to be editable so I think .pdf should be ok. Research papers in my field are all in Latex, using any Office suit would indeed be very unprofessional.

P.S I have actually converted one professor to LO. I was a TA for him. I sent him the grades in odt. He asked me what was that. I explained that I am not going to use MSO unless the university paid for it and the windows license. :) he tried out LO and thought that it was very cool that it was free. So he started using it himself.

In my case Resumes went through Place-com of Uni and they strictly require it in editable format to make changes directly as per company requirement. I know its bit hard to digest but that is just how things were as both company required formats and Uni resume format would change here and there for almost every second company process (some 400 companies coming to campus in 3 months period). Not to mention they also needed it for doing all the corrections on badly made resumes of all the students.

Haven't used Odf, my lack of knowledge here came into play it seems, but this sounds like a good idea.

I've had success in converting my Companies view on Linux though, but driving force behind was mostly redundancy of natively installed CRM being replaced with Cloud based one, which had nothing to do with the OS of machines in question.

Slowly but surely, Linux does get to everyone :p

[sp40140]

I send out stuffs in odf. No one has complained so far. MSO is supposed to open these formats.

Resumes are not supposed to be editable so I think .pdf should be ok. Research papers in my field are all in Latex, using any Office suit would indeed be very unprofessional.

P.S I have actually converted one professor to LO. I was a TA for him. I sent him the grades in odt. He asked me what was that. I explained that I am not going to use MSO unless the university paid for it and the windows license. :) he tried out LO and thought that it was very cool that it was free. So he started using it himself.

What you do is exception and may be only possible in your field and position. You can not get away from MS Office in real life. nobody (comparatively) knows odf format. documents mess up formats. Excel has no competitor in open source world.
When people in higher positions demand MS docs, when clients ask for .docs. You don't have options.

Honestly it's the problem with the standards body. They have allowed .doc to be a standard. And their definitions are like "as done by MS Office 95" and such. When standard bodies become strict, open source will be able to comply. But when you allow such vague language in your standards, nobody has any chance.

[Dragonbite]

Why? So that they can expand their monopoly by perpetuating their proprietary format? What really annoys me is that most people can do as well with Libreoffice but they help to perpetuate MS's incompatible formats by going out of their ways to get pirate MSO and then complain that LO does not have good enough compatibility. The only way to solve the compatibility problem is to move away from MS's closed formats. I have regularly get documents in xlsx or docx. There is absolutely no reason to do that, it is just out of habit or "convenience".

Microsoft is not the monopoly it used to be.

Windows has been dropped from the #1 most browsed from platform. Android is #1 now. Android is strong in the mobile market, Windows is not. The destkop market isn't going to completely disappear, but it's relevance is going to dwindle. Microsoft and Canonical spent a lot of time, money and effort to "bridge the gap" between mobile (phones) that can convert to full desktops. Along comes Samsung and they have a real shot at making a go at it with Dex.

So Microsoft "monopoly" of the desktop is not what it used to be, and what it used to be is so far incompatible with the future.

Microsoft Office has more competition than it has in past years; Google Docs, LibreOffice & OpenOffice. Technical people, like us in this forum including those that say "I'm not technical..." (you're here, you have greater technical aptitude than a LOT of people), can work around with the alternatives, but if you have to deal with people not so technical (under no fault of their own) then you have to accommodate THEM. Maybe that's why the latest LibreOffice release is talking about improved compatibility with Microsoft Office?

Microsoft has for a few years offered their Office Online and OneDrive to be able to open and save documents in ODT format by default. When I shared my OneDrive between Windows, Linux and work (browser) I did this for compatibility purposes.

Microsoft SQL Server has moved to Linux why? To compete with Oracle. As far as I know, there hasn't been a big jump of people TO Oracle so that would lead me to believe it is because Oracle was bigger (in Enterprises) than MS SQL Server.

Most programming articles I run across that compare popular programming languages may include C# in the list, but not all of them put them near the top!

It's easy to say Microsoft has a monopoly, because at one point they did but those days are quickly slipping away. You found an alternative, didn't you?

[sp40140]

Microsoft is not the monopoly it used to be.
That is true.
But it still is a monopoly. Due to legacy reasons. Firms (their IT dept) don't have budget to train their users on new os. And frankly, if was running a firm, I wouldn't either. It's asking for big trouble.
People use what is familiar to them. They don't want to learn something new. And teaching something new to adults is not smart.
I was running a project to replace mainframe with windows thick client. The biggest hurdle was users and their familiarity with text based UI. They had been using the app for 20 years. They could do their job with eyes closed. Didn't use mouse. We couldn't teach them to use GUI with mouse.

Windows is same thing on bigger scale.
That's why what google is doing , getting into education sector, is great. As kids pick new things and won't have trouble in workplace if given different interfaces.
Until that happens, MS will have unfair advantage.

[henke54]

Microsoft has for a few years offered their Office Online and OneDrive to be able to open and save documents in ODT format by default.

some dirty tricks that Microsoft uses to break interoperability. (https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=53950&start=30#p409509)

Differences between Writer and MS Word files (https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=53950&start=60)

:twisted::twisted:

[again?]

they would want it yet, but will they get there? hardly. many apps that work in IE don't work in Edge. so you can scratch the Win10S from businesses. many home users let alone gamers would like to install whatever they wanted, so you can remove those as well. what you are left with is maybe students/limited browsing use, but there is chromebook for that which is what the 10S is really compeeting with here. that segment is not present in my country at all (i guess market is too small). Well at least google is not.

Windows had something similar with Win7 starter. in it you can't change the background, it only supports up to 2 GB ram, comes in 32bit only and has other limits. the Win7 starter users were offered a free upgrade to Win 10 home. an i have to say i was tempted, as the notebook i have can actualyl uprgade the ram from 2 to up to 8GB. but i decided to stay on 7 since i didn't know if 10 will work well (not even HP support was able to tell me that at the time), i didn't want to deal with constant upgrades and possible breakages. so 7 starter stayed (supported until 2019) and the other side of the disk has a 64 bit Kubuntu 14.04 also supported until 2019, when i will upgrade it.

windows now discovered stores and various other walled gardens and started promoting them heavilly. it backfired with Xbox vs. PS4 (where they had to do "some changes") and if they force it on general OS versions it will backfire terribly there as well. still some users might accept the policy, but they store should really be full of stuff (incl. and perhaps especially games/entertainment apps) like in Google play or Apple Store or whatever it's called. as it is now, mostly there are useless apps in the windows store.
Win7 starter was just a stripped down version of win7 to run on cheap netbooks. No real performance difference.
Win10s will be appealing to the large percentage of home users who mainly browse and email.
Being cheaper with the safeguard to upgrade to Windows 10 Pro for $49 and get access to desktop apps, if needed, would entice this segment to give it a go.

[vasa1]

Will Linux distro’s run on Windows 10 S? (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2017/05/18/will-linux-distros-run-on-windows-10-s/)

[vasa1]

Will Linux distro’s run on Windows 10 S? (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2017/05/18/will-linux-distros-run-on-windows-10-s/)
Linux distro store packages are an exotic type of app package that are published to the Windows Store by known partners. Users find and install distros , safely, quickly, and reliably via the Windows Store app.

Once installed, however, distro’s should be treated as command-line tools that run outside the UWP sandbox & secure runtime infrastructure. They run with the capabilities granted to the local user – in the same way as Cmd and PowerShell do.

This is why Linux distro’s don’t run on Windows 10 S: Even though they’re delivered via the Windows Store, and installed as standard UWP APPX’s, they run as non-UWP command-line tools and this can access more of a system than a UWP can.

So what should I use?

If you want to run all your dev tools, distros, shells, etc. on a machine running Windows 10 S – like the sweeet new Surface Laptop – then upgrade it to full Windows 10. You’ll then be able to run Linux distro’s, Cmd/PowerShell, install dev tools, debuggers, profilers, packet sniffers, etc.

[1fallen]

Will Linux distro’s run on Windows 10 S? (https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2017/05/18/will-linux-distros-run-on-windows-10-s/)
I was going to just pass on by here....But great point vasa1.
Yepper's ....me loves my Linux.:D
I guess the moral of the story has always been... use what you want to use.

[Perfect Storm]

Visual Studio Code is now available as a snap on Ubuntu (https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/05/19/visual-studio-code-is-now-available-as-a-snap-on-ubuntu/)

[seekertom]

Anyone can nit pick an argument to death, and try to discredit it based on one or two apparent points, but if the argument is whether or not the 800 lb gorilla is going to need more food, and you are in the same room with bananas in your pocket, and the gorilla is smacking his lips and rubbing his tummy, you had better hedge your bets and agree with the argument. The gorilla has been in business for how many years? and they still don't have security locked down? And many of the problems that have plagued users have been highly ignored, not fixed? So, I'm to understand it's a valid point that to exclude other browsers and search engines (because "They" have been the reason for viruses, malware, etc) in order to insure safety and integrity of the system?
To make it short, sweet and simple, after a zillion years of marketing hype, the car is still being delivered to dealers with only three wheels, a knock in the engine, and now requires Kryptonaski fuel or it won't run. Give them their due, they are awfully good at what they do, but I agree, what they do is Never in My best interest, unless it's First in Their best interest.
I vote for Irv!
st

[irv]

Well, seekertom I thank you for the vote.
The other day I had to check something out on Windows, so I fired it up after not doing so for about six months. I needed to go into a browser so I started Chrome. A popup came on the screen that told me to use Edge because it runs faster. I closed the popup and continued to us Chrome. Window keeps trying to tell us what to use. I am a Linux user and I'm free free free to use what I want.
After closing Windows I had Gigzillion updates to install and I didn't think the laptop was ever going to shut down.