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darkhatter
August 12th, 2006, 03:20 AM
I'm a little confused as to why you a lot of users bash rpm-based distros considering that they are the leaders of open-source. I'm not saying that ubuntu is bad but with Red Hat, and Novell are the open-source leaders, shouldn't you at least give them respect.

somewhat angry OpenSuse user

GuitarHero
August 12th, 2006, 03:25 AM
I dont have anything against them. I didnt like SUSE(too cluttered), and I havnt tried red hat. But lets be fair, Ubuntu is now a leader of open source as well.

darkhatter
August 12th, 2006, 03:42 AM
I think its getting to "leader status" but I don't think its there

richbarna
August 12th, 2006, 03:56 AM
PClinuxOS uses rpm's via synaptic and apt-get, and I must say, as a .deb fan, that I am impressed with the speed and lack of dependency problems.

I too thought that Suse was a crock, but that is down to Yast and a repository that can only be described as dependency hell.

GuitarHero
August 12th, 2006, 04:13 AM
I think its getting to "leader status" but I don't think its there
Ubuntu has got to be the fastest growing distro out there. Gaining some media attention and fame in only 2 years. Plus millions of users.

bjweeks
August 12th, 2006, 04:21 AM
Ubuntu has got to be the fastest growing distro out there. Gaining some media attention and fame in only 2 years. Plus millions of users.

Ubuntu is a buzz word, look how many users AJAX got in less than 2 years :rolleyes:

GuitarHero
August 12th, 2006, 04:26 AM
Sure its a buzz word but theres something to it. Google is using it at their corporate offices. That should count for something

darkhatter
August 12th, 2006, 04:33 AM
lets get back on topic....Why do you attack distro like fedora or OpenSuse? cause I see it popping up lot, often its just random attacks with no reason what so ever can you guys and ladies explain yourself. Personally I consider Suse Entrprise Desktop (or whatever its called this week) the best distro period.

and I have to agree with you, Ubuntu is a buzz word but I don't think that makes it a "leader".

and I use your forums to get help with suse and sometimes slackware I hope your not mad, I only use kubuntu as a live disk

bjweeks
August 12th, 2006, 04:37 AM
lets get back on topic....Why do you attack distro like fedora or OpenSuse? cause I see it popping up lot, often its just random attacks with no reason what so ever can you guys and ladies explain yourself. Personally I consider Suse Entrprise Desktop (or whatever its called this week) the best distro period.

and I have to agree with you, Ubuntu is a buzz word but I don't think that makes it a "leader".

and I use your forums to get help with suse and sometimes slackware I hope your not mad

IMHO most RPM based distros are bloated, but then again ubuntu has some bloat(tho much less than SUSE/RH) thats why I use gentoo alot...

darkhatter
August 12th, 2006, 04:48 AM
would you care to explain to me what bloat is, cause I consider bloat anything that is not used. If I have a distro with 25 programs in it, and I have 25 users. If each user only uses on of those programs they're going going to consider my distro bloated. When you look at a distro as a whole as long as every feature is used by at least one person then nothing can be considered bloat. I guess redundant packages can be considered grey area, but as long as the distro takes around a hour to install I think whatever's in there is fair game.

Give suse enterprise a shot. fully working beagle, flash, java, mp3 , and ipod support out of box (but getting all the other video codecs is kind of hard so I guess it loses points)

P.S. I still want to see a version of slab for kde, that would make suse perfect for me

This is somewhat flamebait but I want to discuss this

bjweeks
August 12th, 2006, 04:50 AM
Give suse enterprise a shot. fully working beagle, flash, java, mp3 , and ipod support out of box (but getting all the other video codecs is kind of hard so I guess it loses points)

I'll pass, I have no need to pay for linux. Plus what fun is it if everything works out of the box? ;)

KiwiNZ
August 12th, 2006, 04:52 AM
I use Ubuntu and Suse , I have used just about all other Distros as well.
RPM was a pain a couple of years back mainly due to dependency hell.
But big improvements have been made of late with RPM and I dont see to much difference now. I guess its a matter of choice.

darkhatter
August 12th, 2006, 04:52 AM
Plus what fun is it if everything works out of the box? ;)

I agree thats why I always have my slackware handy.

One of the main reasons that Adobe will not port photoshop over to linux is no one wants to pay for Linux products. If a linux version of photoshop was to come out I would be the first person seeding. Its sad but the only way to get commercial support is with our money.

bjweeks
August 12th, 2006, 04:53 AM
I agree thats why I always have my slackware handy

:) Tho if I needed to do lots of computers I would compare SUSE, RH and Ubuntu.

TrailerTrash
August 12th, 2006, 05:18 AM
Im more of a RPM distro kinda guy. Ive always have had better luck with RPM. Ive had problems with depedancy hell in Debian as well...Ive even see depend hell in Slackware also. I do use Ubuntu the most but i also have SLED 10 installed and find it to be freaking stable as anything ive ever used. The only bad thing about SLED 10 is getting software installed. I have not yet found anything to work correct with it ( i need some repos for it). Until then i guess ill use Ubuntu. :-k :-# ](*,) ;)

seshomaru samma
August 12th, 2006, 05:56 AM
Nothing wrong with RPM distros
When comapred with other OS , Fedora and Ubuntu are almost identical.
I ran Fedora on my laptop and Ubuntu on my desktop (+use Knoppix at work), It's true that apt is faster than yum , but I have found Fedora to be much more stable than Ubuntu, besides that they function almost the same . Each one has it's advantages and drawbacks.
I ran Debian and Suse as well but chose Ubuntu cause it fits my personality better (hip and unstable ;) )

Not sure what I wanted to say in this post.....
Sorry....

aysiu
August 12th, 2006, 06:27 AM
I would suspect that a lot of people, like me, had bad experiences with RPM dependency hell a couple of years ago, and then assumed now that they're using a .deb-based distro a couple of years later that the difference has more to do with RPM/.deb than two years' development.

Based on my experiences now with PCLinuxOS and Blag, I think it has more to do with two years' development than DEB/RPM.

Dr. Falken
August 12th, 2006, 06:45 AM
I would suspect that a lot of people, like me, had bad experiences with RPM dependency hell a couple of years ago, and then assumed now that they're using a .deb-based distro a couple of years later that the difference has more to do with RPM/.deb than two years' development.
You said it, man!

Most of users that "hates" RPM based distros, was for the problem of dependencies, and lot of us tried debian mainly for "apt-get"... That impression of "just works" was amazing! And lot of us started to learn the goods of debian.

.deb and APT were too advanced in those days!

23meg
August 12th, 2006, 06:54 AM
lets get back on topic....Why do you attack distro like fedora or OpenSuse? cause I see it popping up lot, often its just random attacks with no reason what so ever can you guys and ladies explain yourself.First of all, you're not speaking to a specific group of people that you are sure have attacked RPM based distros, but to a general audience of Ubuntu users, so I should remind you that we have no obligation to speak in the name of anyone who isn't here and defend ourselves when we don't have to.

Second, I've so far observed that most people who have had bad experiences with "RPM hell" tend to bash the RPM system itself rather than RPM based distros. I was too much of a novice back when I was using RPM based distros, so I'm perhaps not qualified to say for sure whether my bitter experiences with them were my fault or that of the RPM system or both, but the fact is that with every RPM based distro I tried after Red Hat 6, I kept having problems with package management that turned me off.

Many people, upon repeated frustration, tend to get carried away and start bashing software without questioning why certain things are implemented in the way they are. They're very quick to generalize based only on their own experience with the software and don't consider others may be having a radically different experience. We see this often in these forums as well and it's frowned upon. If RPM were STILL the unusable piece of crap that it's thought to be after all these years, I don't think it would STILL be at the foundations of major distros such as RHEL and SuSe.

(Trivia: For those not in the know, RPM is the standard package format accepted by the Linux Standard Base.)

aysiu
August 12th, 2006, 06:59 AM
Many people, upon repeated frustration, tend to get carried away and start bashing software without questioning why certain things are implemented in the way they are. They're very quick to generalize based only on their own experience with the software and don't consider others may be having a radically different experience. We see this often in these forums as well and it's frowned upon. You make a very good point, 23meg, that I believe extends far beyond the RPM/DEB debate.

Carrots171
August 12th, 2006, 07:41 AM
I don't bash RPM-based distros. RPM vs. DEB is like KDE vs. GNOME and [insert Linux distro here] vs. [insert other Linux distro here]. They're just two different systems and some people prefer one better than the other. Of course, there are always some people who like to bash the system they don't like. E.G. "Why would I want a big, stinky foot on my desktop?" or "The K in KDE is for Krap".

fluffington
August 12th, 2006, 09:28 AM
A few years ago, RPM-based distros didn't have any good/reliable way to track dependencies, and tended to produce a large number of broken packages (that last part may have been just me, though). Better tools have been developed, though, so there's no longer any sense in the argument.

zugu
August 12th, 2006, 10:40 AM
Can anyone please explain me the techincal differences between deb and rpm? As a Linux user, I used only Ubuntu and I can think of no other way of managing software packaging.

If deb has the apt-get managing system, then what is the one for rpm? Are there more? What is the fundamental difference? Or there's no difference in the way packages are handled, but in the way packages are packed? Somebody please explain me. Wikipedia hasn't much explanations when it comes to rpm.

Lord Illidan
August 12th, 2006, 10:52 AM
What I don't like about rpm based distros is the programs they use to handle it.

Fedora uses yum and a bunch of python programs. I have nothing against yum, it is a very good CLI tool.
But the other python programs suck. They are very very slow compared to synaptic, and they have to reload the entire repositories on startup. I didn't like that.

SUSE uses Yast. Blurrgh... Slowest thing in SUSE, and dependency problems too.
However, when I installed Synaptic in Suse, it became almost bearable.

I say this. Why can't synaptic be the default for these distros. It is excellent, both for .deb and .rpm.

aysiu
August 12th, 2006, 10:53 AM
PCLinuxOS and Blag use Synaptic Package Manager.

ComplexNumber
August 12th, 2006, 11:29 AM
Fedora uses yum and a bunch of python programs. I have nothing against yum, it is a very good CLI tool.
But the other python programs suck. They are very very slow compared to synaptic, and they have to reload the entire repositories on startup. I didn't like that. fedora uses whatever you tell it to use. see post 20 in this (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=230987&page=2) thread. i use both synaptic and Smart packages managers, even though Smart is the better of the 2 by a long way because a) its much faster and b) it goofs up less. from my experience, smart(version 0.42) is fast whilst synaptic(version 0.57.2) becomes tediously slow. put both smart and synaptic on your system, and time each one to see how long it takes so that you can see for yourself.
btw Smart is written in python.

ice60
August 12th, 2006, 01:29 PM
i'm using SUSE 10.1 with Smart now, it's the only working OS i have atm, i like Ubuntu alot more because of the repos. apt and smart --shell are probably equal.

(i also don't like all the KDE stuff in 10.1) :(

ComplexNumber
August 12th, 2006, 01:42 PM
i like Ubuntu alot more because of ...............apt and smart
are you just referring to whats provided in the default package?

EDIT: silly question. of course he is.

nickle
August 12th, 2006, 02:04 PM
My experience with SuSE is the YAST was slooooow and often got hung up on dependeny problems. Moving to Ubuntu and apt was a pleasure ...fast and almost no dependency problems...

Now I am aware my superficial comments above on an RPM implementation (as opposed to RPM itself) are not a qualified critique (LOL) and certainly are no grounds to hate it ....

I am not a techie, so I like things when the just work and it takes a lot of persuasion to move away from something the fulfill this requirement..

Christmas
August 12th, 2006, 02:08 PM
I have nothing against them. Actually I began with Fedora but fastly switched to Ubuntu, it was hard to accomodate with APT insteam of RPM (which I didn't even have enough time to learn well, only rpm -ivh package :)). On DistroWatch Ubuntu is the first distribution by HPD, don't know if it's used by the most Linux users but is going to be definitely after a while.

binks
August 12th, 2006, 02:09 PM
hmm tryin not to get involved but for me the reason ubuntu is way ahead is because of this forum NO other distro comes close and to the point on this thread opensuse (hda) is more stable once set up (yast is so bad out of the box) ubuntu (hdb) is maybe more cutting edge but this forum covers every posible problem so if you can read you can fix so for me ubuntu is my main os suse second and windows xp (media editing) 3rd
;)

Lord Illidan
August 12th, 2006, 02:12 PM
I've never used smart, but I've heard a lot of good things about it. Will try it and let you know.
Otherwise Fedora struck me as better, much better than SUSE 10.1. Imho, it is going from good to bad to worse.. Still, that is another story.

klerfayt
August 12th, 2006, 07:23 PM
It definitely can't be the same reason for every .rpm distro. Maybe users feel that rpm got more restrictions than apt or it can be explained with simple group psychology. Besides look at your threat: rpm-based distro wrong

fluffington
August 12th, 2006, 09:28 PM
Can anyone please explain me the techincal differences between deb and rpm? As a Linux user, I used only Ubuntu and I can think of no other way of managing software packaging.

If deb has the apt-get managing system, then what is the one for rpm? Are there more? What is the fundamental difference? Or there's no difference in the way packages are handled, but in the way packages are packed? Somebody please explain me. Wikipedia hasn't much explanations when it comes to rpm.

The only big differece between the package format I can think of offhand is that RPM has better multiarch support (and Debian and Ubuntu are in the process of improving this with DEB, so that should be a moot point in the not-so-distant future).

APT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Packaging_Tool) and Smart (http://labix.org/smart) are both package managers that work on both RPMs and DEBs (APT used to be DEB-only). Yum (http://linux.duke.edu/projects/yum/) is another package manager, and is similar to APT, but is RPM-only. DEB distros tend to use APT (and Ubuntu will be switching to Smart with Edgy), and RPM distros tend to use Yum.

Also, RPM is in LSB, whereas DEB is not. But APT has super cow powers (type apt-get moo in the terminal).

rattlerviper
August 12th, 2006, 10:21 PM
Deb or RPM? I could care less. I started with Suse way back at 7.0, since then I have used Mandrake extinsively and tried many different distros. Usually coming back to Suse. In all honestly I do NOT like Suse 10.1(I skipped the 9s all together) it is fairly slow on my pc and Yast is way to slow.
I prefer synaptic to yast. PCLinuxOS uses synaptic(and it is RPM based) and I must say it is a wonderful distro. I just like synaptic better and it performs better. Suse should use synaptic and throw yast in the trash.

darkhatter
August 12th, 2006, 10:28 PM
ubuntu has more packages, and it installs packages better. That doesn't mean you can attack it. Suse is slow when you install packages but how often do you do that. I'm not sure what dep hell you are refering to cause that isn't in any distro. You can even slapt-get and enjoy the lazy way of doing things. I'm also not sure what is wrong with Yast, it just works.

once again why do you attack other distro? Ubuntu is nice, its came a long way but.....

Iandefor
August 12th, 2006, 11:19 PM
I'm a little confused as to why you a lot of users bash rpm-based distros considering that they are the leaders of open-source. I'm not saying that ubuntu is bad but with Red Hat, and Novell are the open-source leaders, shouldn't you at least give them respect.

somewhat angry OpenSuse user Even if they're the leaders of OSS, that doesn't mean they're respect-worthy.

lets get back on topic....Why do you attack distro like fedora or OpenSuse? cause I see it popping up lot, often its just random attacks with no reason what so ever can you guys and ladies explain yourself. Personally I consider Suse Entrprise Desktop (or whatever its called this week) the best distro period. SLED?

And why should I not voice my frustrations with Fedora's inferior packaging management system (yum)? God forbid there ever being another python-based package management system! The only good part is the metadata parser, which is in C.


First of all, you're not speaking to a specific group of people that you are sure have attacked RPM based distros, but to a general audience of Ubuntu users, so I should remind you that we have no obligation to speak in the name of anyone who isn't here and defend ourselves when we don't have to. Right on track.


Second, I've so far observed that most people who have had bad experiences with "RPM hell" tend to bash the RPM system itself rather than RPM based distros. I was too much of a novice back when I was using RPM based distros, so I'm perhaps not qualified to say for sure whether my bitter experiences with them were my fault or that of the RPM system or both, but the fact is that with every RPM based distro I tried after Red Hat 6, I kept having problems with package management that turned me off. Exactly. I don't hate Fedora, I just prefer dpkg and hate yum!


We see this often in these forums as well and it's frowned upon. If RPM were STILL the unusable piece of crap that it's thought to be after all these years, I don't think it would STILL be at the foundations of major distros such as RHEL and SuSe. RPM is perfectly serviceable, I agree. But, may I point out that at least one project lead from Fedora has voiced their dissatisfaction with RPM? Fedora really only sticks with it nowadays out of inertia and the fact that it's actually the base upon which RHEL is built.

(Trivia: For those not in the know, RPM is the standard package format accepted by the Linux Standard Base.) I seem to recall that it's only recommended by LSB.

rattlerviper
August 13th, 2006, 12:14 AM
ubuntu has more packages, and it installs packages better. That doesn't mean you can attack it. Suse is slow when you install packages but how often do you do that. I'm not sure what dep hell you are refering to cause that isn't in any distro. You can even slapt-get and enjoy the lazy way of doing things. I'm also not sure what is wrong with Yast, it just works.

once again why do you attack other distro? Ubuntu is nice, its came a long way but.....

Who was attacking other distros? I thought this was a discusion on advantages and disadvantages of RPM vs Deb. If someone wanted to attack distros they could simply bring up bring up security (http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid14_gci1202417,00.html) and that report is not a singular review. But I digress. Is it considered attacking other distros if someone does not agree with your opinion? It is fact that not all distros are created equally and discussing which you prefer is not putting other distros down.](*,)

darkhatter
August 13th, 2006, 12:37 AM
lets try this again.

I have been reading through this forum and several other debian forums and I have noticed that debian users tend to bash other distro more then users of other distro and I just wanted to know why this done.

SlED 10 was a better release then dapper, and it may even out do the next ubuntu release too. The only problem is it cost money.

aysiu
August 13th, 2006, 12:43 AM
People like to bash.

It makes them feel better about the choices they've made. It's called sour grapes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sour_grapes)

If you make it seem as if other choices are undesirable, it means the choice you made is more desirable... which means you made a good choice... which is a self-esteem boost.

We see Gnome users bashing KDE. We see Linux users bashing Windows. Why wouldn't we see .deb users bashing .rpm?

darkhatter
August 13th, 2006, 12:53 AM
People like to bash.

It makes them feel better about the choices they've made. It's called sour grapes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sour_grapes)

If you make it seem as if other choices are undesirable, it means the choice you made is more desirable... which means you made a good choice... which is a self-esteem boost.

We see Gnome users bashing KDE. We see Linux users bashing Windows. Why wouldn't we see .deb users bashing .rpm?

Thanks

TrailerTrash
August 13th, 2006, 01:20 AM
In all the Linix forums that ive ever been in.....I see more Debian lovers bash any RPM distro more than any other people and also ive seen KDE lovers bash the GNOME people more than any other. :-\" I love Ubuntu, but SLED 10 will put Ubuntu to shame. If SLED was free, then watch out Ubuntu. Other than that my 2 favorites are ubuntu and sled 10 ...

darkhatter
August 13th, 2006, 01:55 AM
sled is kind of going free, all of the addon's are going into OpenSuse.

rattlerviper
August 13th, 2006, 02:42 AM
lets try this again.

I have been reading through this forum and several other debian forums and I have noticed that debian users tend to bash other distro more then users of other distro and I just wanted to know why this done.

SlED 10 was a better release then dapper, and it may even out do the next ubuntu release too. The only problem is it cost money.

Sorry. I have supported Suse in the past I bought 6,7,8 pro skipped 9 and tried OpenSuse 10.1(I really wanted to like OpenSuse 10.1). If I wasn't using Ubuntu I would probably be using DreamLinux or PCLinuxOS or Fedora core...then again I'm odd I play with them all!;)

GuitarHero
August 13th, 2006, 04:46 AM
I dont understand the fuss of open suse. I found it to be an even more bloated kubuntu than kubuntu itself. Is the enterprise edition that you can buy much different than open suse?

23meg
August 13th, 2006, 05:00 AM
ubuntu has more packages, and it installs packages better. That doesn't mean you can attack it. Suse is slow when you install packages but how often do you do that. I'm not sure what dep hell you are refering to cause that isn't in any distro. You can even slapt-get and enjoy the lazy way of doing things. I'm also not sure what is wrong with Yast, it just works.

once again why do you attack other distro? Ubuntu is nice, its came a long way but.....
We don't. Noone here does. If you're upset about this, find the people who do and take it up with them in private.


SlED 10 was a better release then dapper, and it may even out do the next ubuntu release too. The only problem is it cost money.
You're entitled to your opinion, and us to ours. The reason we're at the Ubuntu forums and not the SuSe or Mandriva forums should be obvious: we prefer Ubuntu. If you'd like to discuss which distro is ultimately "better", start a well reasoned and appropriately titled thread, however well reasoned it can be. Bringing up the same non-issue over and over when there's nobody around to blame for it or willing to discuss it makes it look like your goal is agitation, even though it may not be.

rattlerviper
August 13th, 2006, 05:20 AM
I dont understand the fuss of open suse. I found it to be an even more bloated kubuntu than kubuntu itself. Is the enterprise edition that you can buy much different than open suse?

I can't speak for it currently, but in the past the Profesional version was not THAT much different. I purchased them as a way of supporting the distro. From reading the website for Sled 10 and having run OpenSuse 10.1 I don't see all that many differences in terms of bloat...:rolleyes:

OpenSuse 10.1 removed wifi because it was not FOSS. In the "real world" the same people that Suse is perfect for(Windows user with a very fast computer)want or need. What the logic was behind it I'm not sure??? I did not know when I installed it that they had taken out support for something that had been there in the past.


SlED 10 was a better release then dapper, and it may even out do the next ubuntu release too. The only problem is it cost money. I can't speak for others here, but I take offense to that. If you had stated in your opinion I would have left it alone. So now I ask where is your proof that Sled 10 is a better distro than Ubuntu?

On the post earlier I made a link to a security report on Linux Distros.
Ubuntu recieved a 76 the nuber one rated distro!
Suse Linux Enerprise recieved a 32 second from the last!

Does not security have something to do with what makes one distro better than another? That article on security is one of many!

gnomeuser
August 13th, 2006, 09:48 AM
Personally I think the packages presented in Fedora are of the highest quality of any distribution, sadly they don't have as many as say universe or portage but it really matters than when you install them there isn't dependecy problems or crashing due to bad packaging. The Extra review process really works well, they also have automated regression testing.

I wish all distributions would put that kind of detail into the actually packaging rather than the system in which is done. That would solve 99% of all bashing issues on all sides.

Besides there are plenty of more interesting packaging concepts out there than rpm and apt. If we are going to replace something old let's replace it with something truly innovative and well designed for the taskset we have this day in age. There are quite a few candidates available, personally I'm swayed with conary and the dpkg replacement that was discussed at debconf a year back or so (also a means of bring in distributed revision control systems into the packaging system).

Marginally different isn't the same as marginally better and marginally isn't enough to justify all the time we spend on this rpm vs. deb debating. If we are to examine these systems let's look wider and provide real feedback as to the problems we see in them. That way we can truly bring forth a better sytem for all.

darkhatter
August 15th, 2006, 02:43 AM
This thread is dead now so I want to get my final word in. I really like ubuntu, but Suse is still the better distro so maybe you everyone should be nicer when you refer to Suse

~Andrew~

happy kubuntu user

who is still waiting for a kde slab :mrgreen:

Iandefor
August 15th, 2006, 02:50 AM
I really like ubuntu, but Suse is still the better distro so maybe you everyone should be nicer when you refer to Suse Just because you believe it's better, all of us should modify our behaviors to suit you?

Just a thought.

PenguinMan
August 16th, 2006, 01:53 AM
For the best RPM Linux distribution, try PCLinuxOS 0.93a. It is absolutely gorgeous! :)

http://www.pclinuxos.com/

I would have to say the two best Linux distributions out there right now are:

PCLinuxOS
the Ubuntu family