GNU/Linux certified PC OEMs are getting more expensive for home consumers

[Welly Wu]

To be fair, much of what I share is based upon my own experiences and it does not reflect upon the larger Ubuntu Forums community or the GNU/Linux ecosystem as a whole worldwide.

I find that the cost of entry into the GNU/Linux community to be fairly expensive and the prices seem to be going up each passing year. Sure, you can take an existing or old Apple or Microsoft PC and install GNU/Linux if it is compatible for free of charge, but my focus in this thread is upon PC OEMs and ISVs that choose to support GNU/Linux. I'm talking about PC OEMs like System76, Zareason, Emperor Linux, etc. The prices that these small companies charge for their desktop and laptops especially their servers are very high. Their starting prices are pretty high to begin with fairly baseline PC hardware components. Where these companies make their money is to overcharge for higher end PC hardware components and special services like rapid builds or express shipping. They make it more financially challenging for new customers and GNU/Linux users to buy one of their products and get the service and technical support when they run into a problem especially for newcomers. I just don't get it, but I paid for a System76 laptop almost twice and I paid for a Zareason desktop. With 20/20 hindsight, I grossly overpaid.

The other major cost comes from ISVs that port some of their Microsoft Windows software products to GNU/Linux and they charge the same or more as a result. I regularly do business with lots of software companies and each product costs me an arm and a leg every year to keep upgrading to newer versions and to use their stuff on my desktop and laptop. Codeweavers, CrashPlan, Red Hat, etc. don't make their software products on the cheap just because you choose to use GNU/Linux. In fact, I spend more money on software while using Ubuntu today than I did when I had a Microsoft Windows 8.1 gaming laptop and my previous Windows software library years ago. I should know because I keep accurate, up to date, and extensive financial records for many years and I did some direct comparisons.

No one forces me to do business with these companies, but my main point is not to complain in my thread. I am just pointing out several years of experiences as a customer and end user. It's up to the individual to choose with whom to do business and how much to spend of their own money, but I found out that I am spending way more money by sticking with the latest Ubuntu 64 bit LTS GNU/Linux desktop operating system than when I was solely using Microsoft products. The real cost is the help, technical support, and the warranties. That's where hardware and software companies get you on overcharging inflated prices for value added extras that are nice to have for peace of mind.

I'll continue maintaining the status quo. Several years from today, I plan to do business with the same or a few new GNU/Linux friendly PC OEMs and ISVs depending upon which company is still in the PC market at that time. This is why I am saving up as much money as possible to build up a small fortune so that I can afford this expensive hobby of mine.

I'd like to get others to reply and let me know if they have other thoughts to share with me and the community.

[d-cosner]

It all depends on what you want. I recently bought a modest priced Lenovo G70-35 laptop, wiped Windows and installed Ubuntu Mate 16.04 development. I couldn't be happier! I do not have much money invested, the system runs great and I am set for some time to come.:D I have not bought any software for at least 15 years. Me and the forum are my tech support along with Google, so no cost there. My 7 and 11 year old boys play games, they play free games in Steam and others they find in the software center.

We have 4 desktops and 2 laptops in the house, the cost of all of them combined is less than the cost of the cheapest System 76 machine. All the desktops are recycled machines, one laptop came from a pawn shop the Lenovo is the first new machine I have bought in 10 years.

[Bucky Ball]

I'm talking about PC OEMs like System76, Zareason, Emperor Linux, etc. The prices that these small companies charge for their desktop and laptops especially their servers are very high.

What, you've only just noticed??? They've always been overpriced as far as I'm concerned, so not sure where the 'is getting' comes from in your thread title. I would say 'have always been'. :|

Your thread title doesn't describe what you're on about in your post, which is that the price of computers built by the companies you mention are getting high (though they always have been). That is not related to your thread title and therefore misleading: the cost of GNU/Linux is getting more expensive. Correction: GNU/Linux is free.

Please change for clarity and to avoid confusion and input that has nothing to do with what you're actually posting about.

[Welly Wu]

To a certain degree, Bucky Ball has a fair point, but when I purchased my 2012 System76 Lemur laptop, the price was more competitive compared to similar Microsoft Windows laptops at that time. Getting to my point today, it has become clear that as these GNU/Linux PC OEMs have grown their businesses, the prices that they charge for each PC hardware component upgrade have increased substantially over time. The real problem is that some of these optional components are not necessarily cutting edge technologies compared to what is available to Microsoft customers for similar PC hardware specifications so GNU/Linux PC OEMs are charging a fortune for older generation components and they are not refreshing their product lines as rapidly to keep up with the rest of the PC industry.

It's sad to see that this has become the norm, but I expect it to continue. Zareason seems to be plagued with this problem more so than System76.

More people choose to buy laptops rather than desktops so my advice to potential customers is to custom build their own desktop PCs with an eye on GNU/Linux compatibility to save on costs. I think that System76 and Zareason do a fair job of pricing their laptop models competitively because they realize that is where some of their revenues and profits are generated from their customers. Emperor Linux is not my first choice for the average consumer because they cater towards IT professionals that need brand name PC OEMs that are GNU/Linux certified.

My biggest gripe with System76 is that they only support Ubuntu although their warranty permits you to change individual PC hardware components and to choose other GNU/Linux distributions at your own risk without voiding the warranty. You'll just lose technical support if you migrate away from Ubuntu.

Finally, I think that GNU/Linux is still a poor choice for PC gamers at this point. SteamOS is a niche within its own niche and there are too many technical issues mainly with its limited list of titles and poor performance to warrant serious consideration for the foreseeable future. I have found that SteamOS to be sorely lacking and the PC gaming experience to be rather uneven across different titles. To a certain degree, PC gaming is still not there for GNU/Linux users yet.

[QIII]

An inexpensive consumer computer generally works just fine if one checks component compatibility. There is no need whatsoever to pay a premium for a bespoke Linux machine from a premium vendor like ZaReason or System76 to use Linux. I buy components off the shelf and roll my own desktops. I've never missed with a laptop that I checked for compatibility first. Even old machines.

An over-priced machine makes the machine expensive, not Linux.

[yetimon_64]

...An over-priced machine makes the machine expensive, not Linux.

Spot on. The title of this thread is extremely misleading as Bucky Ball notes and has asked to be changed by the OP. Sorry OP, but past that point the thread fast becomes a case of tl:dr when such an inaccurate title is left in place.

[Welly Wu]

I edited the title to reflect the feedback that I have received thus far. I hope it is better suited for this thread.

Hopefully, this is not going to be about avoiding System76, Zareason, or other companies, but I would caution others to reconsider their desktop PCs unless they cut prices across the board or offer less expensive upgrade options.

Of course, Ubuntu is free of charge. I want to be clear on that. If I were to do it again, then I might have chosen to build my own desktop PC to save money or just stick with one Clevo or Sager laptop and skip my Zareason Zeto altogether.

Clevo laptops tend to be lackluster in terms of the level of craftsmanship and overall build quality. In the past recent months, some of their current generation product models have stepped up, but I have found that their keyboards are not as comfortable to use and their trackpads are deficient. The quality of their panels is also another weakness that makes for limited viewing angles and relatively dimly lit screens especially in direct light conditions like outdoors. Port selection is fairly good and I am happy that both Ethernet and WiFi are included for the most part. The biggest challenge is for Clevo to reduce the dimensions and weight of their higher end laptops. To the best of my knowledge, very few product models offer touch capability and most are stuck at Full HD resolution which is fine for Ubuntu and a majority of users, but this tends to be a competitive disadvantage when compared to similarly priced Windows laptops that offer better panels and or higher resolutions. Finally, battery life tends to be substandard and I don't like that more Clevo laptops have built-in batteries that make it more difficult to service or replace them over time.

[buzzingrobot]

Hardware vendors make hardware intended to run Windows, even the very few vendors who market machines without Windows installed, like Clevo. Linux will always need to adjust to that, not the other way around.

So, pre-installed Linux machines are very much niche products. Their sellers have higher costs per unit and so do their customers.

[Welly Wu]

I don't disagree with some valid points made so far. With hindsight being 20/20, I would make different choices in the future if I were to continue using Ubuntu. I would probably spend more time researching GNU/Linux friendly PC hardware components and use a website like PC Part Picker to streamline the process for me to buy and build my future desktop PC. I'd probably go with XoticPC or another company and go with another Sager laptop. One System76 Lemur laptop and one Zareason Zeto desktop are enough for me in my lifetime. One of my friends asked me if I could help him to choose a System76 laptop not too long ago and I would tell him to go with a budget Sager laptop without a pre-installed operating system and let me do the dirty work to get him a custom Ubuntu installation for free of charge today.

I'm not against System76 and Zareason and I see how these companies need to pay their employees and grow their businesses. I have made some pretty dumb and expensive decisions in my life thus far, but one thing that I will not write is to trash either or both companies for selling computers that are of low quality despite what they overcharge their customers. My friend still uses the August 2012 System76 Lemur as his primary laptop today with few issues. I have no problems with my Zareason Zeto desktop PC yet.

If someone else reads this and decides to spend more time researching alternative choices that support GNU/Linux and Ubuntu in particular with a willingness to go for a do it yourself path to save some of their hard earned money, then I will be happy and satisfied.

I am glad that I was in a financial position to be able to patronize and purchase one product from each company at the time when I made my online orders. I would like to think that I did my part to support the virtuous cycle within our small community. I voted with my wallet and my close friend and I still enjoy using our laptop and desktop today. It still feels good for me that I chose both companies rather than buying to Microsoft Windows PCs and dealing with the Windows 8.1 and 10 issues and the trouble of switching to Ubuntu on both of them thus voiding my warranties as a consequence. In retrospect, I was a newbie when it came to GNU/Linux at the time when I bought my System76 laptop and Zareason Zeto desktop because I lacked the technical skill sets and experience of using Ubuntu or building my own custom desktop PC. Both performed a service and delivered two products that were invaluable to me without issues. It is that level of convenience and hand holding that helped me to stick with Ubuntu for the past several years without going back to Microsoft or spending more money on Apple. I have a few regrets for overspending, but the overwhelming conclusions point to both companies doing a good job to get me my Ubuntu PCs on time within my admittedly large personal budget. These companies make their sales pitches for prospective customers like me coming from Windows or Apple in the past. Without both of them, I'd probably be fighting the man today.

Thanks to both companies, I no longer think of Ubuntu as some sort of obstacle course that was purely designed by mad geniuses to challenge Apple, Google, and Microsoft newbies with a gauntlet of seemingly endless hurdles. It is my primary and sole desktop operating system of choice on my PCs. Ubuntu is my gold standard by which I not only judge other GNU/Linux distributions, but to a large degree what and how I think about the latest versions of Google Chrome OS, Mac OS X, and Windows. Several years ago, I used to be inordinately preoccupied with privacy and security as my driving interests here in this community when I got my System76 Lemur. Today, I am more interested with media consumption and SteamOS + GNU/Linux PC gaming. Ubuntu taught me many valuable lessons about what to expect from a quasi tier one FOSS distribution. I wound up spending a lot more money over the years to get two computers that were designed for it, but it made me a better computer user. In turn, I wound up giving away old laptops with Ubuntu to several close friends that needed a computer with much more limited financial resources than myself. I also wound up holding their hands through their learning curves and they picked it up without too much fuss or muss. Ubuntu is a superior general purpose distribution compared to Mac or Windows for us.

Today, I can not do it over again in the same way.

[vasa1]

... Linux will always need to adjust to that, not the other way around...Linux is not a person, association, or corporation. How can it "adjust to that"?

[d-cosner]

I think QIII hit the nail on the head! I ended up with exactly what I wanted on a modest budget.

[Welly Wu]

One of the few exceptions that I would consider recommending to others that are curious about Ubuntu or GNU/Linux in general and they lack expertise with regard to PC hardware components is for grandparents or parents that have a relatively young child that they want to teach them how to use FOSS rather than Apple or Microsoft PCs at home. Caretakers that want to instill curiosity, learning, discovery, self-reliance, community stewardship, and problem solving into their young children should give System76 or Zareason a closer look. Some of those children might grow up to learn to love computer science and take it up in formal schooling later in their lives.

One thing that I wish would happen is for Valve Corporation and either or both companies to work more closely together to market and promote Ubuntu gaming desktops and laptops to the public. I think that this relationship would be mutually beneficial in the future since it has become clear to me that the rise of the Linux PC gamer is well underway with a fair degree of wider adoption and usage, but it will take more time for SteamOS to continue to develop and evolve. I wish Valve would allow System76 and Zareason to be featured PC products on their website in return.

[Bucky Ball]

Thanks for the thread title change. More appropriate. :)

[pauljw]

To a certain degree, Bucky Ball has a fair point, but when I purchased my 2012 System76 Lemur laptop, the price was more competitive compared to similar Microsoft Windows laptops at that time. Getting to my point today, it has become clear that as these GNU/Linux PC OEMs have grown their businesses, the prices that they charge for each PC hardware component upgrade have increased substantially over time. The real problem is that some of these optional components are not necessarily cutting edge technologies compared to what is available to Microsoft customers for similar PC hardware specifications so GNU/Linux PC OEMs are charging a fortune for older generation components and they are not refreshing their product lines as rapidly to keep up with the rest of the PC industry.

It's sad to see that this has become the norm, but I expect it to continue. Zareason seems to be plagued with this problem more so than System76.

More people choose to buy laptops rather than desktops so my advice to potential customers is to custom build their own desktop PCs with an eye on GNU/Linux compatibility to save on costs. I think that System76 and Zareason do a fair job of pricing their laptop models competitively because they realize that is where some of their revenues and profits are generated from their customers. Emperor Linux is not my first choice for the average consumer because they cater towards IT professionals that need brand name PC OEMs that are GNU/Linux certified.

My biggest gripe with System76 is that they only support Ubuntu although their warranty permits you to change individual PC hardware components and to choose other GNU/Linux distributions at your own risk without voiding the warranty. You'll just lose technical support if you migrate away from Ubuntu.

Finally, I think that GNU/Linux is still a poor choice for PC gamers at this point. SteamOS is a niche within its own niche and there are too many technical issues mainly with its limited list of titles and poor performance to warrant serious consideration for the foreseeable future. I have found that SteamOS to be sorely lacking and the PC gaming experience to be rather uneven across different titles. To a certain degree, PC gaming is still not there for GNU/Linux users yet.

Linux never has and never will be "bleeding edge." It can't be due to the fact that hardware manufacturers don't provide drivers for linux like they do for MS. This means that if your goal as a business is to provide a stable user experience, you must spend time finding the newest hardware that has stable drivers for the OS you plan to install. MS on the other hand gets new drivers from the manufacturer at the time of release and can implement them immediately. No reverse engineering required.

Spending time and energy piecing a stable system together is costly. Small shops like Sys76, who have about 8 employees and can only put out a few hundred machines a month, can not possibly sell machines at the low cost point of Dell for instance. For this same reason, they pay more for the parts they buy because they aren't getting the quantity discounts of larger manufacturers. Not to mention the fact that the economy sucks and prices are rising everywhere.

Their customers are more affluent than many and want to be able to just use the system out of the box, which they can and do. I'm using a Gazelle-Pro as we speak. It's an awesome machine that does everything I need and then some. And so you know, I bought it to do my part in supporting companies that offer pre-installed linux systems, not because I'm not capable of installing linux on a cheap used machine. I have several other machines around here that I have done just that with.

You say your biggest gripe with Sys76 is that they only support Ubuntu, how many OSes does MS or Apple support? Again, Sys76 builds linux systems that just work out of the box with excellent support. They have chosen Ubuntu, as I would imagine, they believe that it is a polished OS, in the game for the long run, not a here-today-gone-tomorrow distro. Their market customer is someone who most likely is not capable or interested in installing an operating system on a computer which is a very daunting experience not for the average person. I feel they go above and beyond to not void your warranty if you decide to install something different, but that shouldn't be interpreted as "we will provide support" for your new choice. If you are capable installing a new OS, you should be capable of maintaining said OS.

And finally, we get to what seems to be your primary use for computers, playing games. If games are so important, buy an XBox or one of the several similar systems on the market today that specialize in gaming, problem solved.

Yet, there are hundreds of games available to play on linux, again they most likely aren't the bleeding edge games due to no one porting them to an OS that has 1% pc user base. I like games, I play Sauerbraten and DukeNukem to relieve my pent up aggravations. I enjoy mahjongg once in a while, too.

But for me personally, I look at learning linux as a game and I'm never bored by it. :)

[Welly Wu]

I carefully read your reply in its entirety and I choose to address some relevant points and to point out some things that unique distinguish my previous comments.

You and I don't call the shots at these small Linux PC OEMs. So long as customers like you and me have done and future customers will do business with System76 or others, then they get to continue to maintain their strategic business plans with no major adjustments in the foreseeable future.

Unlike yourself, I did business with System76 and Zareason. What you did not mention and I will take this unique opportunity to point out to you is that Zareason is another small California company that sells Linux PCs like System76 except they also support AMD CPUs and GPUs and they target a wider number of distributions. They also accept inquiries to investigate specific distributions on their current generation PCs upon special request.

Another important point that you are not entirely correct about is the fact that AMD and Intel provide firmware and device drivers for OS X, Windows, and Linux through a regular release schedule and channel. What you lack with your specific System76 laptop is a discrete AMD or nVidia mobile or desktop GPU given its vintage which precludes your ability to comment on how far along AMD and nVidia have come to release proprietary software drivers for Ubuntu among other major distributions. While the consumer discrete GPUs are mainly used for PC gaming, who exactly entitled you to write dismissive comments against me? Now that Intel, AMD, and nVidia are offering beta support for the recent Vulkan API in future updates of their graphics drivers to include Ubuntu and other distributions, an important cross platform graphics API is available to reduce code complexities while providing a bridge to encourage compatibility and portability with the tangible result of revamping the old OpenGL standard and ushering it into the modern 3D hardware accelerated graphics era that has numerous applications notwithstanding virtual reality. This is a major trend that has increased the attention and visibility of more hardware manufacturers and software developers to also target Ubuntu and other distributions instead of deliberately ignoring it in the past. This is not necessarily strictly confined to SteamOS or PC gaming; the next generation AMD, Intel, and nVidia product refreshes coming later this year or sometime next year represent cutting edge PC hardware components that will offer native firmware code and device drivers to include Ubuntu and other targeted distributions in conjunction with the Vulkan API. This represents a significant push by these three major companies to give not only Valve and its fledgling SteamOS platform a real shot in the arm, but it has the potential for independent software vendors to consider porting some or almost all of their Apple and Microsoft software products to Ubuntu and other distributions sometime later this year or in the years ahead that have no resemblance to entertainment.

[pauljw]

Well, there ya go, you're right. Enjoy your system and I'll do the same.

[Geoffrey_Arndt]

Welly . . . . .

I always enjoy your posts, and in general, I feel you're bright & quick to learn. But you pretty much nullified your whole thread in post #15. Very defensive and rambling. It was downright painful to get through that post.

If you find yourself doing that again, . . . take a break, drive down to the nearest gourmet ice cream shop in Nutley, and get a hot-fudge sunday or deluxe banana split - - and don't think about computing for at least two or three hours.

Bottom line, PaulJW's post is within the bounds of reason and his right of opinion (we all have opinions after all). My own thought is all the services and peripherals you've purchased over the past 5 years or so make the extra costs of a System76 laptop and Zareason Zeto desktop seem like "small change" . . . Paying a couple hundred dollars more for hardware via these Linux system integrators is worth it for the peace of mind only . . . I'm a very satisfied System76 customer (and I can install Linux on other hardware if I choose to do so (I don't)).

[Welly Wu]

I agree that I was out of character and line and I wanted to apologize to PaulJW in public.

System76 and Zareason do make quality desktops and laptops and my only problem has been with mostly the standard developmental Ubuntu versions in the past. Perhaps my next challenge is to custom build my next desktop PC in a couple of years.

I think that I have written enough and it's time for another extended break.

[Geoffrey_Arndt]

Thanks Welly . . . please keep posting! Your experiences are useful to share and I trust your evaluations of hardware, software, etc. I've also posted a message or two that I wish I wouldn't have.

[Bucky Ball]

Perhaps my next challenge is to custom build my next desktop PC in a couple of years.


That is a learning experience: fun and satisfying. And you end up with exactly what you want. :)

[mastablasta]

there are other OEMs that sell Linux preloaded machines such as HP and Dell. Although their issue is that the PC's they sell it on are not usually that powerful. at least here they would be low to mid range laptops (usually business ones, so otherwise well made but not powerfull).

i am not sure though if they sell their business pro line (the HP for example) with Linux preloaded as well.

regarding specialised software - gaming on Linux is bad. so for gaming one would still need to use Windows anyway. which also probably explains the lack of Gaming laptops with Linux preloaded on the market
as for other software form red hat and such - there are usually two options - get full support or roll on your own. with the knowledge of the OS one can successfully run CentOS instead of RedHat and provide support to companies by themselves (charging for it) and in that case there are no payments needed to Red Hat. Or you can let the RedHat company handle it all in which case you have to bring some cash to them. but the important part here is that there is a choice.

a 3rd option would be to use their source code and create your own OS. :)

[help_me2]

If I were to do it again, then I might have chosen to build my own desktop PC to save money or just stick with one Clevo or Sager laptop and skip my Zareason Zeto altogether.


Or any computer that is Intel chipset based. Intel works with the Linux Foundation and is known to be very linux friendly. My Dell Latitude from 2011 still runs lightning fast, granted I upgraded the RAM to 8gb and put in an SSD. I have no plans on getting a new one any time soon. I keep it dust free, no nicks or dings, treat it nice, and always on a laptop cooler. I may get 10 years out of it.

[mastablasta]

Or any computer that is Intel chipset based. Intel works with the Linux Foundation and is known to be very linux friendly. My Dell Latitude from 2011 still runs lightning fast, granted I upgraded the RAM to 8gb and put in an SSD. I have no plans on getting a new one any time soon. I keep it dust free, no nicks or dings, treat it nice, and always on a laptop cooler. I may get 10 years out of it.

hmm AMD also works plenty with Linux (dedicated team and all) though they do not have the resources as Intel ruined them with their unfair business practices.

I am really interested to see what will happen as they move their drivers into open source only especially since AMD has a lot better GPUs than Intel. AMD CPU's are still a lot cheaper than Intel and not that much weaker. in fact those that come with a GPU are actually better (in graphics). they are not as good in CPU area as they used to be though.