Open source people who love Apple... why?

[atrus123]

How can people justify holding Apple to a level above Microsoft? Everyone loves Apple and loves the way the look and all that, but facts are facts: there are real concerns regarding Apple's (the company) integrity.

I wrote this on my blog recently:


I feel a little bit silly.

A few posts ago, I praised Apple for its development model, having adopted a sort-of open source style thanks to the OpenDarwin project.

Oops. Today I learned that Apple had shut OpenDarwin down a little over a month ago under the pretense that OpenDarwin had neither created a development community nor provided enough bug fixes. Therefore, OpenDarwin, an actual attempt by Apple to maintain some ties to the open source community, had ceased to to be relevant.

Of course, keep in mind that many of the projects which make OSX what it is never actually made it into OpenDarwin. This includes the GUI and Quicktime.

Get real Apple. If you had actually intended in having some part in the open source community, you would have made a real go at it. You would have opened all of your source, and then people would probably have actually bothered to install OpenDarwin, but as it is, you left the OpenDarwin users nothing but scraps. By your own admission, you shut down the project because they didn't fix enough of your bugs. That sounds pretty self serving to me.

So you were just playing at open source, just as I had suspected all along. You took the BSD core. You took khtml. You tossed a few scraps back to the community, and then you shut your doors.

But stock prices are up, and you're making money. I guess you got what you came for.

I guess I'm just venting. I get utterly annoyed when people get all excited about the latest Apple products as if it were the Second Coming of Christ. Everyone seems to forget all the nasty stuff Apple does. I mean, how many lawsuits have they been involved in in the past two years? What about the time Jobs was able to prevent that biography from ever coming to press? Sounds like censorship to me.

[TravisNewman]

I tend to agree with you personally. Not as adamantly, but I agree.

[aysiu]

Linux users tend to like Apple products for one or more of the following reasons:

1. If they hate Windows, they may adopt the "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality and thus think that Apple is Microsoft's "enemy" and thus their friend.

2. Simple envy. Apple products are expensive and kind of status symbol. Sometimes people just want stuff they "can't have."

3. Similar structure. This is what I like about it myself. I like that my wife uses Mac OS X instead of Windows XP because I can actually use her terminal for stuff--same commands as Ubuntu, even sudo!

[Derek Djons]

How can people justify holding Apple to a level above Microsoft? Everyone loves Apple and loves the way the look and all that, but facts are facts: there are real concerns regarding Apple's (the company) integrity.

I wrote this on my blog recently:



I guess I'm just venting. I get utterly annoyed when people get all excited about the latest Apple products as if it were the Second Coming of Christ. Everyone seems to forget all the nasty stuff Apple does. I mean, how many lawsuits have they been involved in in the past two years? What about the time Jobs was able to prevent that biography from ever coming to press? Sounds like censorship to me.

Microsoft, as a company does many bad things. We all know that. Still a lot of users on this forum use Windows also at home.

Apple, as a company does many bad things. We all know that. Still quite some users on this forum use Mac OS X also at home.

What is your point?

[TravisNewman]

I think his point is that most people here hate MS while they love OSX.

[codypumper]

I like Apple and I'll give you one reason. Their stuff works, and it should if your gonna pay money.

[Derek Djons]

I think his point is that most people here hate MS while they love OSX.

To quite some people that's reality indeed. But let's take this point and relate it to the words of the topic poster. Why do open source people love Apple?

Well, not because it's closed source solution. But the reasons can vary from ease of use, certain applications and the design. So the reason why people like Apple is not because it's closed source or just PR'ing better than Microsoft but because Apple presents for these people a better total solution which Microsoft doesn't offers.

[G Morgan]

Apples products are good, Microsofts products are, in this context, bad. It really is that simple.

I think for a lot of us the politics aren't that relevant. Like Torvalds said "Microsoft aren't evil, they just make crappy OSes". So people who like both Apples products and OSS are the ones most likely to fall more towards the OSI's version of things rather than the FSF's. Personally I don't like OSX but I can see why people do, I don't consider it worth the investment (if I was going to pay loads for a PC I'd go all the way and get an UltraSPARC) when Linux offers me perfectly usable solutions.

Anyway theres a place for proprietry software if it is capable. I think eventually (meaning 30 years, far too many people talk about OSS in the short term) we'll get to the stage where 95% of used code is OSS but there will always be people who innovate and sell their product.

[Bragador]

yeah actually back in the days, from what I read, people were all sharing their codes and their tricks.

Then came bill that wanted to copyright his tricks and softwares...

And he won.

25 years later, the world is a dark chaotic place and war are being waged.

[Michael_aust]

I personally think Microsoft and Apple are both as bad as each other. They are both propriatory horse sh**. They are both pushing DRM down users thoughts.

I do not see one better then the other, they are excactly the same. Same practises, same morals etc.

[Mathias-K]

yeah actually back in the days, from what I read, people were all sharing their codes and their tricks.

Then came bill that wanted to copyright his tricks and softwares...

And he won.

25 years later, the world is a dark chaotic place and war are being waged.

I can see your point, but please: The world has always been wartorn. Let's not be too theatrical in our statements. For a lot of people, MS Windows and Apple OSX just work.

Certainly, one could argue that if MS went down and Linux took over, computing would be very chaotic if cross-distro compatibility would remain the same as today.

[Michael_aust]

Anyway theres a place for proprietry software if it is capable. I think eventually (meaning 30 years, far too many people talk about OSS in the short term) we'll get to the stage where 95% of used code is OSS but there will always be people who innovate and sell their product.

Whats to stop you from Open SOurcing your code and selling it?

The gpl etc do not stop you from selling your product. As song as you give the customer a service they will buy your version over the fork of your software thats free (in most cases), look at red hat enterprise and cent os.

[aysiu]

Whats to stop you from Open SOurcing your code and selling it?

The gpl etc do not stop you from selling your product. As song as you give the customer a service they will buy your version over the fork of your software thats free (in most cases), look at red hat enterprise and cent os.
Legally speaking, you're right, of course. But when you talk about people buying the official product instead of the free fork of the product, your "customers" aren't everyone--mainly businesses and corporations.

For everyday consumers who aren't afraid of free things, the free fork is almost always more appealing.

[G Morgan]

Whats to stop you from Open SOurcing your code and selling it?

The gpl etc do not stop you from selling your product. As song as you give the customer a service they will buy your version over the fork of your software thats free (in most cases), look at red hat enterprise and cent os.

I'm not saying any different but it will be the case that somebody with something unique will charge for it and then open it when competitors arise in order to stay ahead of the game. At least in the population of people who don't believe in OSS politically which is currently 95% of the computer using population.

I don't think everything should be free, I think that most things are better suited to being free for development reasons.

[Terracotta]

I'm not really a mac fan myself, I've never used it, and never gonna buy one either. But I do give Apple more credit than I give MS, just because they use MORE open standards. (Aside from the iTunes and iPod sh** I don't see much closed protocols, though I might be wrong). They use cups, they use a Khtml-fork soon to be Unity, they used the bsd kernel. Ok, they don't give as much back as opensource people would like, but if you want your work to be used fairly use the GPL, the BSD people shouldn't complain that some a** called Steve Jobs took their work and gave them nothing in return except their name somewhere on a list, the licence permit it, considering most people don't even follow the licence of most products it is nice to see they do. They did give back to the Khtml developers (and they didn't complain themselves, users of konqueror expected konqueror to render the things the same as Safari which it did not, and the devs explained why, they never complained about it, but well, after that buzz apple was more cooperative, KDE is still making more steps towards Apple than Apple is taking steps towards KDE, but the same can be said of GNOME and KDE, and frankly I don't care, they are following the licence people wanted them to follow, which is admirable in its essence.

But I myself would never want to be so locked into a system as apple would like its customers to be, but I prefer people using macs above windows PC's, just for the effect it has on MS marketshare.

[gThree]

@atrus123 --
It's my personal opinion that OSX is currently the best all-around desktop OS for consumers. That doesn't mean I "love" Apple ... not sure why that distinction evades people at times. My opinion is based on my experience with Ubuntu/Kubuntu, Windows 98/2000/XP Pro, and OSX ... not the flirty way Apple undresses me with their eyes.
Lawsuits: You can disapprove of the particular methods Apple's legal firm used to enforce NDAs, but you still have to acknowledge their right to pursue legal action to do so ... the legal system sorts it out from there.
"What about the time Jobs was able to prevent that biography from coming to press?": If you mean this biography:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471720836/002-6407403-7206430?v=glance&n=283155
Jobs refused to sell it in Apple's retail stores. I would probably pick "childish" as the best adjective to describe that particular episode.
I don't have enough information on Apple's relationship with open source projects to comment but, from what I have read, there's room for criticism.

@michael_aust --
"I personally think Microsoft and Apple are both as bad as each other.": Can't agree with that unless, by that, you mean that they are both businesses. And, while a business may appear as an inherently immoral entity, the people who animate those entities do -- daily -- encounter similar circumstances and react differently to them in ways that can be judged as "good" or "bad" behavior. Apple has never been perfect, but to equate their actions to those of Microsoft is a little overboard. One practical method you might use to measure the social quality of their behavior is the amount each company has paid out in settlements for questionable business practices in the past 5 years.

@codypumper --
"I like Apple and I'll give you one reason. Their stuff works, and it should if your gonna pay money.": That's pretty close to my current take. Maybe that makes me less idealistic than some "open source people". I think Linux provides value, in part, because it's free. I think Apple provides value, in part, because of quality (software, hardware, service). I think Windows currently falls between the two in that it costs more than Linux and lags behind OSX in quality so -- for the consumer desktop -- I'd currently rank it behind both OSX and Linux. Obviously the average user doesn't entirely agree ... or is coming to the same conclusion very slowly ... but it would be interesting to see what marketshare would be like if the world walked into a store tomorrow and started completely from scratch.

Sorry for the long post, but it's an interesting question.

[hizaguchi]

I like Macs because the hardware is nicely designed (durable and attractive) and the OS is relatively low-maintenence. And when there is maintenence, it's mostly familiar BSD commands and Bash, which beats the crap out of Windows' pretend Dos. Finally, the X server for Mac is WAY less trouble and more usefull than the Windows versions, so running the best open source software is always an option.

So, though I don't for a minute rank Apple's integrity above any other large corporation's, I'd rather use a Mac than Windows.

[simonn]

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/06/08/07/2359256.shtml

[siimo]

And when there is maintenence, it's mostly familiar BSD commands and Bash, which beats the crap out of Windows' pretend Dos.

Heard of MONAD shell? it's coming in Vista (probably or maybe as an addon, im already running beta version on XP at work ;o)) and its gonna rock for those of us that are familiar with .NET. Appearently you can use .NET libraries and functions in the shell which is super cool :cool:

I think its called PowerShell http://blogs.msdn.com/PowerShell/

[Polygon]

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/06/08/07/2359256.shtml

im not sure if this is better or worse then what apple had before, but if its better, way to completly derail this topic :D

[BWF89]

I like Apple because:
-Their stuff is easy to use out of the box, although it could be argued that making computers easier to use and thus dumbing them down is preventing people from making the effort to switch to Linux they do have a useable CLI so the people that wanted to make the effort could use Unix commands if they wanted.

-Eventhough MS has Apple stock Macintosh and Windows are still competeing. And every user who uses Macintosh is a user who isn't useing Windows. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[bruce89]

Apple lock you in more than MS. MS and Apple are as bad as each other, mabye Apple slightly more as they tie you to their hardware. (Macs, iPods). Their naming scheme (iEverything) is as bad as past KDE policy (KEverything). Not to mention how awful QuickTime is (no fullscreen until you pay, even when it's bundled with a Mac). Also they push DRM all over the place.

It might look nice, but underneath the silvery exterior is a monster.

In other words, I hate Apple as much as MS.

[graabein]

I think both companies are bad and I think OS X is a better OS than XP.

When my girlfriend said she was getting a laptop I suggested looking at MacBook because she's no computer expert and I think a Mac is easier to maintain. I think she's getting a Windows laptop though because that's what she's used to. Me I'm perfectly happy with Dapper and I dual boot with XP only to play some games like City of Heroes and Civilization IV. Civ 4 is great btw!!

If only I could solve the graphics problem I've been having for months... Something about XFree86... I've tried a dozen Howto's and I still don't get 3d accel, TV-out or XGL/Compiz to run. I'm very close to doing a clean install. I just have to back up my /home first. That's my project for this fall.

:evil:

[bruce89]

I think both companies are bad and I think OS X is a better OS than XP.
I agree here, I just don't like some things about both of them.

Something about XFree86...
Xorg?

[mscman]

Ok, here's my take on the situation. Yes, I totally agree that Apple is as bad if not worse than MS about using DRM and closed source software, and that they also seem to be "locking the customer in" to their company's hardware and software; but I personally don't see this as such a bad thing.

With Windows (and Linux), the software is designed by completely different people than those who created the hardware. There really isn't any cross-talk between them and therefore a lot of things don't work right on a particular setup. Also, sometimes the hardware doesn't work with another piece of hardware.

This is where I love Apple: the same company designs both the hardware AND the software. Granted, this leaves something to be desired when talking about upgrading your computer's components, but Apple is already creating computers of an amazing quality, then writing great software for it.

To echo some of the sentiments of the above posts, yes, there is a lot of proprietary software, but you do have the choice of using OSS because of the Xserver capabilities. I also (personally) love the look and feel of Apple's hardware and software. I own an iPod not because everyone else has one, but because I like how it works and looks. Yes, I am certain that my next computer purchase will be a Mac, because I do prefer OSX over Windows (esp. Windows Vista...). I don't necessarily hate Windows (or MS), just like I don't hate Apple or the Linux community or the BSD community. I simply use what I find easiest to use and what suits my needs.

I guess this thing is long enough. Long story short, feel free to disagree, but I really like Apple's stuff.

[Brunellus]

Apple hardware is excellent. But their vertical-integration approach demands vendor lock-in. Consequently, their corporate survival depends on restricting user freedom wherever possible.

[23meg]

What I like about Apple: most of their designs and user interfaces make a lot of sense usability-wise. Much more sense than other proprietary counterparts. Other than that they're just another giant with nasty practices.

[hizaguchi]

Heard of MONAD shell? it's coming in Vista (probably or maybe as an addon, im already running beta version on XP at work ;o)) and its gonna rock for those of us that are familiar with .NET. Appearently you can use .NET libraries and functions in the shell which is super cool :cool:

I think its called PowerShell http://blogs.msdn.com/PowerShell/
And soon there will be a gtk port, and we shall call it... GONAD :)

Sounds interesting. I'll check it out. Thanks.

[Brunellus]

And soon there will be a gtk port, and we shall call it... GONAD :)

Sounds interesting. I'll check it out. Thanks.
the gnu clone will be GONAD (GOnad's Not A Derivative). The gtk'd xterm with it will be GNOMAD. KDE types will clamor for Konan or something.

[hizaguchi]

KDE types will clamor for Konan or something.
Kesticle?

[xtacocorex]

I just got a MacBook two days ago and I can say that I made the decision to buy because the hardware is what I wanted. I went to Best Buy after the Apple store looking for computers that had what I wanted in them and I didn't find anything good. I even brought the Dapper DesktopCD to try out, but that didn't happen because I was dissapointed.

I got the Mac to also get more experience with OS X. I'm very good with Windows and Linux, but it doesn't hurt to have that third OS on my resume; you never know what company requires the knowledge. I may decide that I don't want OS X on it at some point and can remove it for Liinux, but I'm impressed with the system so far.

I can also dual boot it, so I put XP on there using BootCamp so I can play my flight simulator, Flanker 2.5. I got Parallels to run Dapper, but I need to finish setting it up, but for now, I remote into my old Dell laptop and do that. With X11 forwarding, I have access to all that I need.

In short, I got the Mac because it does what I want it to do. I could have gotten a 15in or 17in Pro model, but my flight sim doesn't need that intense of a graphics card so 64mb will suffice for me.

[flaak_monkey]

MAC to me has always been Proprietary Linux. You get what you pay for, and if iwas gonna pay for an OS and such MAC for sure. Plus there hardware is always a standard of quality. No 1000 choiches to make your PC. UNIX FTW.

[G Morgan]

What I don't get is people eulogising the quality of the Apple hardware. Bar a few DRM locks its the same stuff as you can get on a PC (bar the PPC models obviously). True theres a metric tonne of crap PC's out there but if you are going to compare Macs to PC's then you should make comparisons for models around the same price in which PC's usually wipe the floor in terms of performance.

In terms of durability. I have an old Pentium 133 with 32MB RAM (EDO), an ATI 3D Rage GFX card a Soundblaster 16 and a 2.5GB HDD and it works as well now as the day I got it out of the shop in 1996. I've got 5/6 PC's from different eras and have never had any hardware trouble with any of them.

Bar a fancy case I can't see what a Mac gives you that a PC doesn't. True OSX is a decent OS but PC users aren't restricted to Windows.

[aysiu]

Apple offers you a complete package, and that's what a lot of people like (regardless of their relationship with open source).

The hardware is designed for the software, and the software's designed for the hardware. They're both designed by the same company.

You can't get that with Windows or Linux.

When people talk about the "quality" of the Mac hardware, I think they're referring to its slickness rather than its durability... at least I hope so. A lot of Apple hardware my wife has bought has been cheap plastic that rips apart (particular cords). But the curves and shapes are seamless, and the silver and white look is cool. That's what people like.

Some people may be sick of the Aqua look, but for a lot of people it is still the best-looking GUI out there.

I don't think you can generalize that open source people love Apple or hate Apple. You can just say that there are people in open source who hate Apple and Microsoft, who love Apple and Microsoft, who hate Microsoft and love Apple... and a very few people in open source who hate Apple and love Microsoft.

It probably just goes back to the first reason I cited: a lot of open source people consider Microsoft to be "the enemy" and think "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

[graabein]

Xorg?

I've had Ubuntu installed since they used XFree86 instead of Xorg and I guess some bug still lives inside my system somewhere. Can't remember the exact error warning (I'm at work now) but I'm sure it says something about XFree86 and that's what drives me nuts. I'll check it when I get home.



Edit: Here is an old thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1124461#post1124461) I mentioned my problem. I will try the nVidia Linux forum. I know, I'm lazy...

[devoinregress]

MS and Apple have very diffrent approaches to the open source community. MS has always shunned the foss community where as Apple has done more work along side OSS projects (they have also scammed them after they start to do something big). How can you not respect the BSD base and the incredible UI.

[TBOL3]

Oops. Today I learned that Apple had shut OpenDarwin down a little over a month ago under the pretense that OpenDarwin had neither created a development community nor provided enough bug fixes. Therefore, OpenDarwin, an actual attempt by Apple to maintain some ties to the open source community, had ceased to to be relevant.


OpenDarwin wasn't cloased down, they just hadn't realeast the intel vertion yet, and a few days ago they just did.

[peabody]

I love/hate Apple. I love them because their stuff is innovative often times. Brand new stuff that makes you go "cool!". I hate Apple because they force lock-in, their community is snooty and elists (Apple fan-boys look down on everybody, I mean EVERYBODY), they push out new stuff and abandon their old stuff quickly, and while, yes they have tried the open source thing, it was to exploit the open source community, not contribute to it. I think RMS said it best once, "What they gave us, we didn't need, what they didn't give us, we really could have used."

[dada1958]

I'm using Mac OS since 1994 and I like it, from the beginning. I never liked Windows. I don't like Apple and Microsoft as companies, both are arrogant ...
But Mac OS X is a good OS and I'm able to run FreeHand, Freeway Pro, InDesign CS and Photoshop on it.
Ubuntu Linux is a good OS with a lot of potential but there is still a long way to go:cool:

[%hMa@?b<C]

My uncle just bought an iMac, and I feel the exact same way as the original poster. I directed him to Kubuntu, thinking that I could get him to comcider trying it, but many people are happy with their propriatary crap, so I left him alone after that.

[lemino]

After reading parts of Naomi Kleins book "No Logo" I have started to dislike Apple even more than MS. Even if MS have a far bigger marketshare Apple is really trying to build an entire concept, both when it comes to harware and software. As far as I'm concerned, I feel my integrity beeing a lot more threatened by Apple than by MS. If MS is a failing western democracy were people only have the illusion of a choise, Apple is the totalitarian state were people have no choice what so ever, being it an illusion or not.

[Brunellus]

After reading parts of Naomi Kleins book "No Logo" I have started to dislike Apple even more than MS. Even if MS have a far bigger marketshare Apple is really trying to build an entire concept, both when it comes to harware and software. As far as I'm concerned, I feel my integrity beeing a lot more threatened by Apple than by MS. If MS is a failing western democracy were people only have the illusion of a choise, Apple is the totalitarian state were people have no choice what so ever, being it an illusion or not.
how about this: they're corporations to which you are not a shareholder?

Because, really, that's all that matters. In the marketplace, the last offer and first decision is "take it or leave it."

[Carrots171]

Apple's business practices are just as bad as Microsoft's, if not worse. But why would I recommend Mac over a Windows? Because in my opinion, Macintosh is a better operating system.

[BuffaloX]

Apple lock you in more than MS. MS and Apple are as bad as each other, mabye Apple slightly more as they tie you to their hardware. Also they push DRM all over the place.

It might look nice, but underneath the silvery exterior is a monster.

In other words, I hate Apple as much as MS.

Exactly! sometimes I have the feeling nobody undestands this.
I consider Apple to be much worse than Microsoft, and both their hardware and software is far from impressive, and always has been. ( Except the Apple IIc maybe )

No need to say I stopped using Apple systems quite quickly. But some of my friends kept with them, because they were in advertising, and for a long time, there were no real alternative.

Q: When did Apple/Macintosh get option for color monitor?
A: After everybody else did.

Q: When did apple get preemtive mutlitasking?
A: After everybody else did.

Q: When was apple systems able to support multi protocol networks?
A: Long after everybody else.

Q: Which company modifies standards, only for the sake of making standard components incompatible.
A: Apple

Q: Which company said that 2 buttons on a mouse is too complicated for the user?
A: Apple

Q: Which company would make computers with absolutely no options for upgrade, then market them as "for students" when in fact they were still more expensive than the competition?
A: Apple

Q: Which company sues users for publishing fixes for faulty components.
A: Apple

Q: Which company used to have a totally closed API, so you couldn't develop anything for their platform, even if you had bought a compiler?
A: Apple.

Q: Which company claims to be the 8th wonder of the world, when in fact it's more like the 8th plague.
A: Apple.:tongue:


These were just examples that jumped to mind, I probably forgot some.

[Corvillus]

I don't think it's really the open source people who love Apple. *nix users like it because it's a *nix, so you get all the benefits you would get using Linux, BSD or any other *nix (with the exception of software freedom of course). You also get to run proprietary software on it as well (which, let's face it, is important to a lot of people, there are just some areas where open source hasn't quite caught up, although that's rapidly changing). It's also extremely easy to use right from the get-go. So from a utility standpoint OS X is probably one of the best operating systems to choose for many people. From a software freedom perspective however, it's not very good, and you'll find that most people who support software freedom heavily do not use OS X for this reason.

[mdmunoz]

As a person who thinks open-source software is a great idea and a person who "loves" apple, I think that there are 3 main reasons:

1. You can run virtually any open source Linux software on a Mac OS through X11 (even a desktop environment like KDE, etc.) with Fink or Darwin(Mac)ports with great ease.

2. Not everyone thinks that proprietary software and open-source software are mutually exclusive. Some people love the idea of integrating open-source projects into existing operating systems and their bundled software, and I personally agree that this is a great way to get open source in general available to the masses.

Some even believe that capitalism and charging money for software is not an inherent threat to the open source community. Though the capitalist must use legal means to differentiate his/her software in order to remain profitable, open-source projects can intergrate well into this system by picking up users in the spaces where capitalism fails. For example, Joe schmoe is irritated because he needs an image editor on his Mac (none came with the computer) but even Photoshop Elements is too expensive and bulky in terms of memory for features that he will never use. Enter Seashore, a native Mac open source application based on GIMP, which is also open source and costs him no money.

3. Apple actually does do open source stuff on its own, which is really great for people of the above opinion who want open source projects integrated into the "system," and there are a lot of really cool things like Webkit to get involved in, which is an example of technology vital to a host of Mac applications that has been made open source (and, in my humble opinion, the nightly builds put Mozilla to shame).



Anyway, I know there are plenty of "hardcore" open source people who think that there should be relationship at all with a company that uses licenses, etc. to protect itself, but I find this view to be urealistic and think that integration is the most effective way to work. Feel free to disagree.