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TravisNewman
August 7th, 2006, 05:07 AM
Inspired by the recent post, "Beware of infomercial scams!" I was inspired to write this...

I recently got my car inspected at a business which will remain unnamed for now. It's in a big college town, where I work. He said I needed new brakes all around, new rotors on the front and drums turned on the back, because the brakes were ALL so worn that they were metal on metal. Also, I needed two new tires. He said that if they replace the brakes they have to do a brake flush, and if they replace tires they have to do a front end alignment. All of this would cost $850.

I've had brakes and tires replaced before, and they've never had to do a brake system flush or a front end alignment, so I thought that something was up, and even if I took off the price of those (around $75 each), the price still didn't seem right, especially since the brakes were still working fine and I didn't think it was possible that it was metal on metal-- if you've ever had that happen you know how loud it is, you can't miss it.

I took it to my mechanic in my hometown, and all the brakes were so low that they wouldn't pass inspection, but they were still working. The drums did need turning because I had some hot spots (rubber deposits from having to slam on your brakes too hard). Two tires were replaced. I also had to replace a switch that controls my brake lights that was malfunctioning. Oh, and no alignment, no brake system flush.

Toal? $350.

My dad told me about this time when he was younger when he was losing a quart of oil about every 2 miles. A mechanic was going to charge him about $500 bucks to replace all this stuff in his oil system, that required taking out the engine to get to most of it. He took it to a friend, who sent him to an auto parts store to buy a part for 72 cents, took about 2 minutes to install, and all was well.

Always be careful if you get an estimate that you think is way too high. It will take 15 bucks to get a second opinion most of the time, and it could save you lots of money.

em3raldxiii
August 7th, 2006, 06:47 AM
Often if your brakes are hatched like yours + having to replace the tires, it is actually a very good idea to get an alignment. In fact, in some cases, it might be necessary for safety reasons. You may consider checking that out with a mechanic you trust.

The thing about your brakelines needing flushing definitely sounds fishy; if your lines were in good shape (not worn or cracking), and there was no evidence of serious brake fluid loss, then you don't really need a flush at all. Certainly doesn't hurt, but it would take about 5 minutes while you have the brakes off to do it. Super easy.

So yes, the first guy was hosing you ... no question. However, depending on the age of the vehicle, you may consider getting some other stuff checked because there are a number of things that can be associated with that sort of wear & tear. For example, if you have slammed on your brakes very hard a time or two, especially while turning, you may want to verify that your tie-rods are not overly worn. Also, ball-joints have a habit of following bad breaks/tires.

Don't mess around with your personal safety! Yes, get more than one quote ... definitely! If you have the time, it's a great idea for you to surf the 'net and learn a little bit about your car ... then get out there and look it over. Maybe hoist it up and yank off a tire to have a good close look. Understand what you are looking at and it may one day save your life!!

Just my two cents :)

PS. I am not a mechanic, I am just one of those guys who likes to get his hands dirty and hover over the mechanic's shoulder when he's doing some work ;) They hate that haha.

Dr. Nick
August 7th, 2006, 06:59 AM
cases like this is where a "factory service manual" is worth its weight in gold, Cars are realtively cheap if you have some free time and are willing to get dirty and brusied.

I sometimes get a 2nd opinion, alot of time not though. I will troubleshot it myself and get a solid idea of what I think the porblems is, then I will think about the value of my time compared to what a mechanic will charge.

If the mech seems reasonable I ususally go with it, If a few are way high on prices then I just do it myself with aid of a manual.

Luckily my car hasnt needed much work yet.

Polygon
August 7th, 2006, 07:46 AM
i would get really pissed if a mechanic scammed me into paying more money then i should have.

i would report that company to the BBB, they keep records on companies that get a lot of complaints and stuff. I dont know if they actually act on that information, but it is public.

Titus A Duxass
August 7th, 2006, 08:23 AM
You should replace/renew/change (delete as appropriate) your brake fluid every two years. Standard brake fluid is hygoscopic which means it absorbs water (unless you are using silicon based brake fluid which is non-hygroscopic) and after two years in needs changing.

But flushing is a con job!

mips
August 7th, 2006, 12:45 PM
I would also advice flushing the brake system occasionally. I do it once a year at the same time I replace the brake pads.

As mentioned by Titus A Duxass brake fluid absorbs water. One bad thing about this is that it could cause corrosion in the brake caliper and the piston could get seized in the caliper, this will cause the pad to have more contact on the disc thus decreasing the life of the brake disc. To replace a caliper is expensive, to have it fixed means you are going to be without a car for a day or two.

Alignment would also be recommended after tyre changes or suspension work. It's should be relatively cheap, about $20.

As suggested here, get a good service manual and fix your own car. Will save you lots of money. I perform a full service on my car at every service interval and the cost is at least 1/3 of taking it to a shop.

A friend drives a toyota pickup which is serviced by the toyota dealers. Last time he took it for a service they billed him for a oil filter but never replaced it. When he had a look the old one was still in there with the milage written on it when it was replaced.


...new rotors on the front...

Don't rotors go on helicopters ;)

em3raldxiii
August 8th, 2006, 01:58 AM
Don't rotors go on helicopters ;)

Ha ha .... cute. For those who may not be aware, the rotor in your disc brakes is the actual 'disc' that is squeezed when you press the breaks. The part that makes contact with the rotors are the brake-pads (which obviously have to be routinely replaced).

Some of the problems that can occur on rotors are:

1. Warping: Occurs occasionally, but shouldn't be something you have to deal with often. One of the most common causes is when your pads are worn and you are riding your brakes (get's the rotors very hot), and then you turn right through a very deep puddle. This causes rapid cooling of the rotor and can warp or cause fissures in the surface of the rotor.

2. Scoring: Occurs when you get sand or pebbles caught between the pads and rotor or elsewhere against the surface of the rotor. This usually isn't a big deal, but can permanently damage the surface. Your brakes should still function fine, but if you suspect this sort of damage you should get them replaced.

I should point out that I am not anything close to a mechanic, and a "real" mechanic may disagree with me so make sure you do your research.

cheers!

TravisNewman
August 8th, 2006, 02:07 AM
Alignment would also be recommended after tyre changes or suspension work. It's should be relatively cheap, about $20.

Hmm... the quote they gave me says $85 bucks for alignment ;)

They checked it out at the shop and said it didn't need aligning. I don't know how they find out but I basically told them everyting that the first place said and had them check it all.

Boomy
August 8th, 2006, 02:23 AM
Actually 4 tires, new brakes on all 4 corners, flushing the fluid, and an alignment for $850 sounds about right. The other mechanic charged less and did less work, so that saved you money, it sounds like the other mechanic was just more thourough and wanted to "do it right". You saved a few bucks now by not replacing the fluid, but who knows in a year your master cylinder could go due to moisture in the system. If your rotors are bad and you install new pads, they will wear prematurely and have to be replaced again in a short time. I have to say though, unless you hit a giant pothole, or have worn suspension parts, you shouldn't need an alignment. Maybe he was trying to rip you off, or maybe the tires were wearing funny indicating alignment problems. In that case your new tires will wear prematurely. I dunno, that's why I do all of the work on my car myself. I got ripped off when I was 16 by a mechanic, so I said never again, and taught myself everything, even worked as a mechanic for a few years.

Dr. Nick
August 8th, 2006, 04:52 AM
Hehe, I have worn suspension, really screwed up my last set of tires aswell, were very warped and shook the entire car very noticeably when doing less than 30-40mph. So instinct was to always go over 40 :) Then reality kicks in and says if I blow out going over 40 im screwed. They were atleast 4-5 yrs old anyway so it wasnt a big loss (I only drive maybe 5k miles a year so they last awhile)

So I just got new tires, 4 new tires installed ran me about $250US, The shop never mentioned an alingnment. I asked how much for them to fix the suspension and they said it could run close to 1000$ :rolleyes: [-X

So in the near future I will most likely be buying some good auto jacks and some new shocks at maybe $100 each and do it for atleast 1/2 that ;)

TravisNewman
August 8th, 2006, 04:56 AM
Actually 4 tires, new brakes on all 4 corners, flushing the fluid, and an alignment for $850 sounds about right. The other mechanic charged less and did less work, so that saved you money, it sounds like the other mechanic was just more thourough and wanted to "do it right". You saved a few bucks now by not replacing the fluid, but who knows in a year your master cylinder could go due to moisture in the system. If your rotors are bad and you install new pads, they will wear prematurely and have to be replaced again in a short time. I have to say though, unless you hit a giant pothole, or have worn suspension parts, you shouldn't need an alignment. Maybe he was trying to rip you off, or maybe the tires were wearing funny indicating alignment problems. In that case your new tires will wear prematurely. I dunno, that's why I do all of the work on my car myself. I got ripped off when I was 16 by a mechanic, so I said never again, and taught myself everything, even worked as a mechanic for a few years.
Well, it was just 2 tires, and only the rotors on the front had to be replaced (so he said) and the back ones turned. I had the mechanic in my hometown who I've been going to for years and never had any problems with check everything out, he said the brake system didn't need flushing, the alignment was fine, the front rotors were totally fine, just needed turning on the back.

Anduu
August 8th, 2006, 06:32 AM
Check this out...

http://www.computerpranks.com/download/media/asf/mechanic_messes_with_women.asf

Dr. Nick
August 8th, 2006, 06:36 AM
Check this out...

http://www.computerpranks.com/download/media/asf/mechanic_messes_with_women.asf


Only a few mins into it and I know exactly where its going :D

Dr. Nick
August 8th, 2006, 06:39 AM
Hmm, for 2400 I think I woluld tell them to keep the car and I would go buy another :)

The one good thing I can say is atleast they asked her for permission first.

sadly not all mech are like that. Its always nice when they "notice" "stuff" that "should" be done and go ahead and do it for you. hehe

mips
August 8th, 2006, 09:17 AM
Ha ha .... cute. For those who may not be aware, the rotor in your disc brakes is the actual 'disc' that is squeezed when you press the breaks.

If I walked into a spares shop here and asked for rotors the guys behind the counter would look at me funny. If however I told them I wanted 'discs' or 'brake discs' they would say sure thing :)

mips
August 8th, 2006, 09:22 AM
Hmm... the quote they gave me says $85 bucks for alignment ;)


I suppose some things are more expensive in the US. If people were quoted that price over here they would just laugh hysterically. When you buy 4 tires here you usually get the balancing and alignment for free or next to nothing. I had my tires replaced 3months ago and the entire bill came to about US$200 for 185/65 14", not to bad. With alignment it usually just ends up being the test on the machine and most vehicles pass, if not they fix for a small fee depending on the size of the job, last time one toe setting was slightly off and it cost less than US$10 to fix.

em3raldxiii
August 8th, 2006, 10:25 AM
LOL isn't it funny how different places can vary so much when it comes to stuff like "what things are called"?

Mind you, South Africa's a long way from like ... everywhere else civilized LOL. You really are kinda isolated down there, hmm? I hear the weather in the winter is absolutely fantastic though ... 20-25C, light fluffy clouds, light breezes ... well, that's what someone was saying on a different messageboard anyway.

But yeah, as far as "rotor" vs "disc" goes, well ... I suppose you could get technical and say that the rotor is the whole thing and the disc is just the skinny flat part. It's all one hunk of metal though - kinda like "noggin" versus "head". haha ;). I'm thinkin that the guy on the other side of the counter *would* actually know whut y'er talkin about though because it's called a rotor in the manual ;)

The ones on the back (in like 95% of cases) are actually drums. They work on much the same principle, except the pads aren't squeezed onto either side of it. Instead, it's like a ... well ... drum. Think of it this way: Imagine a tube that is spinning and you put a pair of pliers in the middle so they're not quite touching the tube. Then you OPEN the pliers really wide so they make contact with the tube, and therefore slow the tube down. Well, much the same with rear drums. The drum is the tube, and the break pads are the contact-surface on the pliers.

The drums might need to be "turned" if there's minor surface damage and/or heat-stress which can cause hardening and polishing (and therefore crappy brake power). "turning" is not like swapping them for a different angle or anything, it actually means taking them out and putting them on a lathe and peeling off a super thin layer of metal from the contact surface on the inside. It can vastly improve the effectiveness of your braking, however you are removing some of the structural aspect of the brakes and therefore run the risk of weakening them. As far as I know, you can only "turn" them once in their lifetime and will have to replace them next time for safety reasons. It should also be pointed out that your rear brakes are only strongly engaged during power-braking and E-Braking. From what I understand, your rear brakes aren't engaged during every-day light braking. It smacks a little strange to me that you were told they needed turning, but I could be wrong there.

Here in Canada, a set of 4 "good-quality" tires will run you around $60 to $120 each (cheaper = crappy tires) for "medium-size sedan" tires such as 180/70R14. In my area, it is pretty much stupid NOT to buy "all-season-radials", as opposed to summer tires. Some people have winter tires on all-year (softer rubber = better grip on ice, but wears faster on hot asphalt). Also in my part of the world, big pot-holes and rough roads are SUPER common (our weather varies more than just about anywhere else: -40C January to +40C July = lots of heaving and cracking of roads), so getting routine alignments might be more common here than most other places in the world.

... holy crow I am long-winded at 3:15 in the morning ...

Titus A Duxass
August 8th, 2006, 10:28 AM
Disk with a K not with a C, disc with a C is normally computer based.

em3raldxiii
August 8th, 2006, 10:31 AM
Funny you say that Titus. I think this is another colloquialism. See, I'm in Canada, so you have "Disc-brakes", and "Compact Discs", but you also have "Shaped like a Disk". For me, "Disk-Brakes" is a spelling error and would earn you a big red X from your English professor ;)

Just for Sh!ts-&-giggles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_brake

Titus A Duxass
August 8th, 2006, 10:56 AM
em3raldxiii - you are correct. I have been out of England to long and my spelling is going down the tubes! It is the other way round. I'll give myself a big red cross (on my ****) when I get home.

I now call them Bremsscheiben (pl).

em3raldxiii
August 8th, 2006, 11:24 AM
Bremssheiben, hey? I dunno ... Disc-brakes seems faster haha.

Funny, in Canada there is a "special" dialect called "Newfie" which refers to the way people talk in the province of Newfoundland (the island off the East coast). Unfortunately, there is absolutely no way for me to truly describe how they talk except to say that theirs is the most efficient language on the planet. I am sure there is a way to say "disc brakes" with half-a-syllable or less.

If you are curious (and want to laugh until your sides split), look up comedy audio files by a group called: Buddy Whasisname and the Other Fellers. There are varied spellings of their name, but I do believe that is the correct one. Use your favorite P2P sharing program and look them up - you are looking for any skit that involves "newfenese". Of course, any skit about "the Yammy" or "the Vet" or even the lawn-tractor will probably have you gasping for breath cuz you are laughing .......... but anyway, have a listen to the way they talk - that's newfie.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Wasisname_and_the_Other_Fellers

mips
August 8th, 2006, 11:31 AM
LOL isn't it funny how different places can vary so much when it comes to stuff like "what things are called"?

Mind you, South Africa's a long way from like ... everywhere else civilized LOL. You really are kinda isolated down there, hmm? I hear the weather in the winter is absolutely fantastic though ... 20-25C, light fluffy clouds, light breezes ... well, that's what someone was saying on a different messageboard anyway.


Yeah, weird how there are different names for the same thing.

The weather here is perfect, but that depends on where you live. West coast & interior of the country can get cold in winter. I was in Johannesburg about 2months ago and it was really cold, like 0'C early in the morning or night, but the days were still 'relatively' warm if there is no breeze. On the east coast where I live it is nice and warm and we complain it's cold when it gets down to like 16'C. I just came out of the garden watering plants and it's a nice sunny 28'C with a slight breeze (3m/s). On days it can get into the 30'C+ here in winter. The nice thing about winter is that it is warm but with way less humidity than summer. I prefer our winters to summer as it gets kinda unbearable in summer.

I have a friend that emigrated to Canada (Toronto area), his first job when he got there was to shovle snow, needless to say he hated every minute of it.

em3raldxiii
August 8th, 2006, 11:43 AM
Ya, The problem with the Toronto area is that you are bounded on all sides by the great lakes (which are so big they might as well be oceans). One of the lakes (Erie or Ontario) often freezes right over in the winter, and Toronto routinely gets a couple of meters of snow. It's not uncomon for them to get 50 centimeters or more in one single snowstorm. Makes for some very hellish shovelling.

Here in central Alberta, we are about 200 or 300 km from some of the highest Rocky Mountains which gives us some really wierd weather conditions. In the summer, hot air comes up from the South and we can get over 35C for several days. Normally it's relatively low-humidity though. In Southern Alberta, it's not uncommon to reach 40C the odd time usually around the end of July. In the winter, though ... {shudder}. It's usually well below -15C for most of November through 'til February. From Dec to Jan, it's not uncommon to have -40C for several days straight. -30C for weeks some years. And unpredictable! Holy cow ... it's a local saying: "In Edmonton, if you don't like the weather, wait 15 minutes." It's true. The weather changes so rapidly here it's sickening. Trying to plan a long-weekend camping trip is truly a gamble because 1. the weather WILL change, and 2. the weather IS different 50 km away.

Hence the requirement of having all-season radials haha. And routine alignments. As you can imagine, our highways take a beating. Good thing our government is rolling in surplus cash from oil revenues, or we'd all be driving on destroyed roads.

praganzi
July 16th, 2011, 03:19 AM
I know it's an old thread, but I came across it whilst looking for some garage billing stock control job card software.

What people seem to have missed is that brake discs / rotors have a minimum permissible thickness, aka scrap thickness. Should a disc get below this thickness at any point, either all over, or the outer radius or inner radius (if your pads aren't clamping 100% parallel) it should be replaced. Ideally as a matched pair, but you can turn / machine the other one Indeed, it is the law here in NZ that should a mechanic do a repair on a part of a braking system where some part of the rest of the system isn't up to minimum manufacturer's safe tolerances that mechanic is liable to imprisonment and fines, and should such a thing be found to have caused a crash, the mechanic is liable for all reparations, and / or for manslaughter. That includes changing a set of pads if the discs are undersized. Different rules apply to the home handyman. You have to remember that a braking system is just that; a system.

I know it seems a little preachy, but really, if you've seen the effects like I have, you would change your discs. When pads wear down to the metal, there is a godawful noise, as has been pointed out. If a disc is at or above minimum thickness (MT, because I'm too lazy to keep typing it), and the "asbestos" has disappeared from the pad (I know, I know), the metal backing plate of the pad is still held captive by the calliper cage. If the pads don't have pins running through them to secure them to the car (the majority of Japanese and Euro cars, don't know about North American vehicles, don't have pins), and the disc is below MT, then the pad can leave the cage, making the calliper piston over extend past the rubber seals, and hydraulic pressure is lost. At best, you have a back-up system that will bring your car to a stop in 4 times the distance. At worst, you have a single line system, and the handbrake (park / emergency brake) uses the same pads to stop the vehicle, and you won't stop without external Newtonian influence. Think tree.

SUVs are bad for this, we've had two Range Rovers, a few Hiluxes, a Mitsi and a pair of Nissans. The pad on one of the R-Rs had lodged and gouged out the very expensive alloy wheel, which also had to be replaced as there was not enough metal on it. I've also seen both front discs of a Subaru Legacy shear at the hub. The centre of the discs were still clamped by the wheels against the hubs, but the outer radial friction surface was just swinging in the breeze. The sudden lateral motion had destroyed the callipers. This happened when he was coming down Arthur's Pass, and he used an unsuspecting truck to slow him and stop him.

As for the link to the wind-up call, some cars do have washers for the headlights, and so "headlight fluid" isn't beyond the realm of imagination. Most medium to high performance tyres are now rotational, so they can be on the wrong side. Couple this with a Toyota directional wheel, and you could have a situation where they have to be remounted and balanced. As for front to rear issues, it is possible given a particular drivetrain layout and non directional radials (not cross ply), but then it's also possible for a husband to be right, just once, but the chances are so statistically insignificant that it isn't worth considering.

As for no transmission... No defence or mitigation. Even I can't find anything to pick apart.

PS. Does anyone know of any linux workshop management software?

Bandit
July 16th, 2011, 03:51 AM
Inspired by the recent post, "Beware of infomercial scams!" I was inspired to write this...

I used to rebuild Automatic Transmissions many years back for a living. I also used to build race car engines for friends and myself on the side. I practically have had my hands on every nut and bolt on a car or truck that a person can think of. But I got alergies that cuased me to start breaking out badly from oils and fluids. So now I only mess with my own stuff from time to time.

But the story is I was in San Diego many years back while I was in the Navy and I needed some new front brakes, so not having any tools or my shop within 2000 miles of there. I went to Midas to get some brakes put on. I told them I needed some brakes put on the front of my car. Soon as I turned my head they started jerking the tires and hubs off the back of the car. I stopped the dude and reminded him I only wanted front brakes, he tried to inform me that my back brakes where almost wore out and my back hubs were wore down over .125! Well I walked over to him and the brakes on back were brand new well over .250 thick if not more and took the hub out of his hands. Just as I expected they were slick as glass and barely had a touch of rust on the edge. I gave the hub back to him and informed him that my hubs were not wore a 1/8 an inch and that I was still a ATSG member to put my damn back brakes back on and replace the ones in front like I am paying you to do. He was speechless and finish replacing my front brakes. BTW those back hubs are still brand new looking and when I did replace the back brakes this summer they were the same thickness as the new ones. :wink:

HermanAB
July 16th, 2011, 12:19 PM
Newfie - The wipper snipper:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFXwWPYyRqU&NR=1

You are only a real Canadian if you can say Saskatoon Saskatchewan in four syllables or less.

Phrea
July 16th, 2011, 02:05 PM
Necrophiliacs ! :P

CharlesA
July 16th, 2011, 02:20 PM
Wow major necro.

Oh yeah, closed.