DE-wars, Episode 2

[matgorb]

With Slackware dropping Gnome in standard, and Ubuntu focusing on it, is the Desktop Environment war officially started?
What is the state of the different main distribution:

Slackware: KDE now that it is dropping Gnome
Ubuntu: Gnome, or is it?
Fedora: Both but RedHat has always being a Gnome Supporter.
Mandrake: More KDE oriented


After all it all seems to be balanced, and it might be for the better, since now you can choose a distro for the way it will look as standard, and thus it might be good for distro to compete to get the best look and feel and thus attract more new users, I myself, always thought that distro like Cobind had it right, focusing on the user, and I saw Ubuntu being a good thing, both because I'm a Gnome user and I think there is enough KDE centric distro out there.

I ask myself, what is so wrong of having only one DE, I never ask myself the question when It was going the way I wanted, the Gnome way, but with a major distro like slackware dropping it for, at the end of the day, KDE, I thought, well I'm not gonna use Slackware anyway, I like my dependencies to be cheked for me, but is it that bad, I don't think so. People use to make their choice of distro because of the choice these ditro made, why the DE decision should be different, I mean KDE or Gnome, you either love it or hate it if you know what you're talking about (hum actually I'm not sure about that point considering the answers I get on my previous post on a serious KDE Gnome debate) and if you're a newbie you'll just choose the one that looks better for you.
So I'm calling for distro to make offcial policy to choose ONE DE, or NONE, it will make people life easier, and don't start with the blablabla I want my KDE in my so kalled Gnome ubuntu, just get over it, get the, not so terribly looking ubuntu background image, grab a copy of Simply Mepis, and there you are, who can tell the difference, it's all Debian under the hood.

I praise the time when my distro will come simple, did I say autopackage or did I not http://www.wildgardenseed.com/apkg/, where installing apps will be like a mac os dream, why is it so difficult to make linux useable, and by this yes i mean easy to use and maintain, most of us here just need firefox open office and gaim, why cant they just be standelone installs and just systems files need to be apt-get? Come on people, we are almost here!

(did I mention that I want an Expose like function on my Linux DE, I mean it just make sense, and software patent are not there yet in EUrope, so I guess it is possible to "steal" the idea, one you taste it, you just wonder, why didn't they think about it before?)

sorry for the lenght, it's the hangover.

[poofyhairguy]

Ubuntu: Gnome, or is it?

It is. No question. A sub distrobution of Ubuntu, Kubuntu, uses KDE but Gnome is the only supported DE in Ubuntu.


I praise the time when my distro will come simple, did I say autopackage or did I not http://www.wildgardenseed.com/apkg/, where installing apps will be like a mac os dream, why is it so difficult to make linux useable, and by this yes i mean easy to use and maintain, most of us here just need firefox open office and gaim, why cant they just be standelone installs and just systems files need to be apt-get? Come on people, we are almost here!
.


I would love autopackage. Up till Ubuntu, I have chosen the distro I use based on how many installable packages it has. (Read my other posts to reveal my hatred for compiling programs from the source.)

It went: Mandrake (a few, but you had to pay to get the ones I wanted), Fedora ( a few more than Mandrake, and synaptic told me how many I had!), then when I couldn't find a bittornado RPM, Debain. Sarge had so many packages I almost cried. Minus the almost. Yet since Sarge looks like a OS from 1992, I tried its children- MEPIS, KANOTIX, Libranet (and finally after of of them disappointed me in some way), Ubuntu. Everyone says its overhyped, by I didn't hear about till I'd tried almost everything else. It is soo good that I have abandoned my former distro picking philosopy, and have stuck with it despite the fact that Gentoo might have more ebuilds than Ubuntu has debs...

(Even though...Gentoo stills sounds interesting. Not on my main machine, or my laptop (I would hate to compile everything on a 300mhz ibook)...so I might make another machine just to try it.)

Where it counts, Ubuntu rules!

[Knome_fan]

1. There is no war. There are alternatives and some people prefer the one or the othere, that's all. If you think this is a war, grow up.

2.

I ask myself, what is so wrong of having only one DE
Who said it was wrong?

3.
well I'm not gonna use Slackware anyway, I like my dependencies to be cheked for me
There are tools like slapt-get or swaret that do that for you on slackware.

4.
So I'm calling for distro to make offcial policy to choose ONE DE, or NONE, it will make people life easier, and don't start with the blablabla I want my KDE in my so kalled Gnome ubuntu, just get over it, get the, not so terribly looking ubuntu background image, grab a copy of Simply Mepis, and there you are, who can tell the difference, it's all Debian under the hood.
I'm seriously asking myself what your point is here. If you want to tell us that you don't like Kubuntu, at least come up with an explanation why it is a bad idea, not just blahblah.

And there is one thing people like you who really think there is something like a DE war going on constantly forget, I for one and I'm sure there are many others like me, want to use the software that works best for me and if there is a KDE app I want to use in Gnome I want to be able to use it and with a lot of KDE packages now in main and therefor maintained I am able to do just that much better than before.

5.
where installing apps will be like a mac os dream
You mean nightmare, right? But I agree, autopackage is great and certainly a big step in the right direction, but like OSX it ain't, which is one thing that makes it so great.

6.
Mandrake (a few, but you had to pay to get the ones I wanted)
Jesus:
http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/
Probably nearly all the packages you could want and claiming you have to pay for the packages is simply untrue, to put it mildly.

[lerrup]

1. There is no war. There are alternatives and some people prefer the one or the othere, that's all. If you think this is a war, grow up.

I'd like to agree with that. Can we just kill this thread here?

It seems to me that Ubuntu has got it about right and the core is aiming to be beautifully solid and gnome and kde handled with the Ub/Kub split. Seems everyone gains.

If you want to have a war with someone, why not fight discrimination or poverty and do the world some good.

[matgorb]

First of all, let's clarify one point, I prefer Gnome over KDE, because of look BUT it is not the point here and we can't really argue about it anyway in a serious way as it always turns to a pro-Gnome/pro-KDE fight (excuse me, I called it war, did you miss the different threads here where this happen?) So let's leave it.

In the absolut, I think that choosing only one DE is a good thing, the DE is the look and feel of a distro, if Ubuntu had another DE as default, lets say KDE for the sake of it, but it could be something else, I would not use it, mainly because I would use something I like the look of, UserLinux for example, or Cobind. I see nothing wrong in Kubuntu, I just don't understand why people choose a distro, then remove what really makes it distintive, and complains about the fact that it was not like they want at the first place? Why choose Ubuntu if all you want is a KDE desktop, I might be missing something here.

KDE/Gnome is a war, a war about look, to me it makes totally sense to make a choice, and people are free to dislike the choice, and manage an alternative, but the constant whining is just unnecessary.

I personnaly think that apt should manage system and security, and that apps should be manage in a different way.

Now, having different DE makes things complicated, mainly because of support, I prefer one well maintained system where I don't have a choice of Gui, then one where I have the choice, because if I don't like it, there is plenty of distro for me to choose from out there. I like the fact that slack decide to drop Gnome, because it makes sense, even so I'd prefered they keep only Gnome, and I like the fact that Ubuntu chooses Gnome, because I looked long before I found a good Gnome /debian based distro, Note that point, Gnome based distro, I think this is really the point here.

[zenwhen]

There really is no DE war here. Canonical is supporting Gnome desktop testing, packaging and distribution as a part of their commitment to Ubuntu and the Ubuntu community. Some of the devs and community members banded together to make sure their favorite DE, KDE would function as well as Gnome in the Ubuntu distro.

So far as I know from hanging out in the dev channel there's been very little talk of Kubuntu by the main devs in official channels. It is a community supported project and I love the idea.

While I am not a KDE user, I appreciate their work. I appreciate it because users are brought to Ubuntu, and Kubuntu still uses ubuntu-base. This means more testers. It means more testers on the unstable branch as well as a lot of these Kubuntu users are ex Gentoo users. Ex Gentoo users are going to want bleeding edge stuff, so ubuntu-base testing for Grumpy will have a lot more manpower behind it.

Ubuntu has drawn a large flock of Gnome lovers over. I came from Slackware. I switched a week after Pat sent me the email that I posted on Dropline that got slashdotted and pissed off a lot of us Gnome Slack users.

Gnome is a professional DE, with a clean look, some super intelligent devs, and the support of python and Perl programmers sitting in IRC rooms loving Linux around the world.

It makes my heart melt. 8)

In the end, whatever brings more users to Ubuntu is a good thing. KDE isn’t my cup of tea, but plenty of people love it, and I am glad they are having their needs met by Ubuntu.

[lerrup]

Note that point, Gnome based distro, I think this is really the point here.

No the point is that you are trying to start a flame fest for no reason.

As I said, Ubuntu/Kubuntu seems to have settled this for the distro in question. As far as I am aware, those who wanted KDE didn't just sit back and moan but produced something.

The point about Ubuntu is more than just the distro, there really is an attractive philosophy behind it which is why many people tried it to begin with.

[matgorb]

Sorry sorry, i might not have been clear, I just don't think only about Ubuntu, I think in general, for me the decision of dropping a major DE from an official release is a step toward a DE war, where distro will have to choose. But don't take war literally, I think it is a good thing and the best that can happen that distro focus on a consistant approach.
I personnaly think that a distro must made choices, which can be difficult and hurt some people, and the DE is one of them, it is simply not effective to have a choice of DE if we want to widespread linux on the desktop, the choice has to be made for the user, the one who knows enough can change it if they want, like Kubuntu for instance, it is the beauty of open source, but it shouldn't hurt the core users (i don't say it does).

Believe me, new users don't want to know if they use KDE or Gnome, they want to know if the system works for them and how easy it is. I just think that given the actual state of DE, it is difficult to keep things easy if Gnome an KDE and XFCE and etc.. are present, It is easier to present people with one unified look. It goes the same with everything, not only DE, just DE is a big part since it maimly how you see things. I like the Ubuntu way by default, one thing for one purpose, one browser, one media player, one office suite, if things work then people donät really care about choices. See Windows, it is free since it is pirated, it is full of virus, still people use it, because it works, they have the choice, they don't use it because they don't see the point, give a linux install which do what it is suppose to do, and people will not even realise, that is my point, the whole war wording is just to conceptualise the fact that now distro realy have to focus on look, that's all, linux is working, but that is not enough

[Knome_fan]

matgorb, I think all, or nearly all people here agree with you that focusing on a working desktop and a lean and mean install are things where Ubuntu really shines and are probably the reason why a lot of people here use Ubuntu. So I don't really think there is anything to argue over.

Especially as Kubuntu is not taking these things away from Ubuntu (and you don't claim it does, thanks for clearing that up), which is the beauty of the way Ubuntu and Kubuntu interact.

So again, I fail to see anything that is worth discussing here.

Finally, about the war issue, from my experience with all those KDE/Gnome flamewars I wouldn't call it war, I'd call it kindergarten.

[matgorb]

It is just because I extend this to linux in general, not just to Ubuntu, if distro start to focus on one DE/distro, you might call it like you want, but i will call it war, worse than what is already going on, still it might be good for the users and the newbie, but some nerdy people will get angry

[jdodson]

i don't think it is a war. i think it is distros focusing on what they think is best. i am with ubuntu for a reason and a big part of that is gnome.

[poofyhairguy]

6.
Jesus:
http://easyurpmi.zarb.org/
Probably nearly all the packages you could want and claiming you have to pay for the packages is simply untrue, to put it mildly.

Actually I always had more luck with RPM search engines than with easyurpmi. Yet it doesn't have eveything I need. The most I could ever find for Mandrake was around 9000 or 10000 packages.

[Brunellus]

It is just because I extend this to linux in general, not just to Ubuntu, if distro start to focus on one DE/distro, you might call it like you want, but i will call it war, worse than what is already going on, still it might be good for the users and the newbie, but some nerdy people will get angry

Choice isn't necessarily what a newbie is looking for. What he's looking for is something that *works*

A lot of the appeal of Linux to technical people---the degree to which it can be customized and optimized, the variety of desktop environments, etc--- are lost on total newbies. Most of these people couldn't even tell you what a DE is or does, never mind express a preference. What's more, refugees from The Other OS will be less than willing to learn a whole new way of doing things. I'd hate to see my poor, utterly non-technical mother (who barely checks her e-mail, never mind uses her computer) on fluxbox, for instance.

Personally, I'm on the fence between gnome and kde. I like gnome, but it doesn't run fast enough on my (old) hardware to make me entirely happy. The recent announcement of bounties to trim bloat interests me. KDE's integrated apps, however, seem a lot nicer than gnomes integrated apps: I particularly like the Klipper and digiKam. most of the time, though, I run Fluxbox, because it makes the best use of the scan system resources I have.

[bigzak]

If you read the Slackware changelog entry, you'll find that the reason it has been dropped from the main distro is because there are 3 (at least) community efforts for providing GNOME for Slackware that are much better than the version included with Slackware. Given that recent concerns in the number of packages were pushing the distro the 3 binary iso territory, dropping GNOME from the distro and pointing the user (who, considering this is Slackware we're talking about, will be a technical one) to the other projects.

There is no war. It's just practicality on Slackware's side. Someone else did GNOME for Slack better than Slack itself, so let them. It's the way the community works.

[zenwhen]

It is just because I extend this to linux in general, not just to Ubuntu, if distro start to focus on one DE/distro, you might call it like you want, but i will call it war


The great thing about the freedom of speach we as a community enjoy is that you can be as wrong as you want, and still say what you think.

[TravisNewman]

The great thing about the freedom of speach we as a community enjoy is that you can be as wrong as you want, and still say what you think.
OK, let me get this across. There will be arguments about which one is better but
*clears throat*
There is no war!!!

KDE and Gnome devs actually work together very frequently. They're both good environments, they both suit different purposes. There is NO war! None! The only war is the war that competitive users WANT there to be. If not for competitive, one-sided users, threads that discuss the pros and cons of KDE and Gnome wouldn't turn into flame-fests. Heated? Yes. Heated discussion is a GOOD THING. Flaming and made-up wars to prove which DE has the biggest manhood are just that: made up.

So don't worry about a war starting. Just don't START the war.

[regeya]

OK, let me get this across. There will be arguments about which one is better but
*clears throat*
There is no war!!!

Well put, panickedthumb. :-)

There seem to have been a few misguided souls who thought that having better KDE support in Ubuntu would bring down the quality of Ubuntu. Well, whatever. A little education can clear that up.

Speaking for myself and only myself, I can honestly say that GNOME is a slick, polished, professional desktop, but when given KDE and GNOME, I still prefer KDE. Why? Personal reasons; I work better with KDE.

The brilliant thing about both projects is that they present a choice that is Not Windows and Not MacOS for those of us who prefer to use neither. And the other brilliant thing is that there are a gazillion* different windowmanagers out there in case having a full DE like KDE or GNOME isn't your bag.

At one point in the history of KDE and GNOME, there were heated words, and some of them between key devs. I don't follow either set of dev mailing lists very close anymore, but what I've seen suggests that when the licensing issue changed, the main point of argument dissolved and all is well with the world.

SO there's no war, and no need to discuss this further.

*I may have exaggerated a bit.

[matgorb]

Considering that any licensing issue disappear with the release of QT4, I just want to make clear that I didn't mean war between people, or dev, or users, I mean it in as a marketing war, with distro advertising one or another.

Anyway, I recently felt in love with XFCE. It is just simplier for the one who doesn't want things to be complicated, I like the all mouse config, easier to teach newbies.

[kassetra]

Anyway, I recently felt in love with XFCE. It is just simplier for the one who doesn't want things to be complicated, I like the all mouse config, easier to teach newbies.

XFCE and I have this love-hate-love relationship going on. I always love XFCE in screenshots, and in the first oh couple of weeks that I use it... then I hate that certain things I want aren't available... so then I go back to gnome, which I have a love-hate-love relationship with as well...

So basically, I'm in a love triangle with XFCE and Gnome... and that is just beyond typical of me - it's like my standard operating procedure!