Jargon On Ubuntu.Com [Archive]

mhancoc7

July 23rd, 2006, 08:09 AM

Well, it is a little hard to answer objectively. What I mean is that there isn't too much for me now, but I would have sayed that there was absolutely too much 4 years ago when I was just thinking about using Linux. I must say though that Ubuntu is a lot better than some distro sites that I have seen as far as Jargon is concerned.

Jereme

Johnsie

July 23rd, 2006, 08:20 AM

I voted undecided.... I'm an IT professional so it's impossible for me to think like a newbie. I guess the best way to measure it would be to get some grannies and non-techy people to go on there in some kind of experimement, taking notes of all the things they didn't understand. I think removing technical barriers is an important step in promoting Linux to the normal-user world.

kabus

July 23rd, 2006, 08:24 AM

Linux-based operating system,

software

desktop and server

PC (Intel x86), 64-bit PC (AMD64) and PowerPC (Apple iBook and Powerbook, G4 and G5) architectures.

desktop application

word processing and spreadsheet applications

web server software and programming tools

If that's too technical for some people I shudder to think what they'll do when the installer asks them to partition their harddrive.

richbarna

July 23rd, 2006, 09:57 AM

I think that everything new is too technical at first glance. Everything becomes more familiar after a bit of reading and a touch of trial and error.
Now that we are familiar with many things, it is hard to remember back to when it seemed complicated. Can anyone remember the first time they tried to program a VCR? or installed their first piece of software that had dependency/driver errors? (I thought not).

Read,try,ask. Great way to learn :)

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 12:32 AM

I didn't understand most of the jargon related to Linux when I first started, and you know what?

If I didn't know a word, I either looked it up in the dictionary/Wikipedia... or I just didn't care what that word meant.

BWF89

July 24th, 2006, 12:36 AM

The Ubuntu homepage is probably the most newbie friendly distro homepage there is.

henriquemaia

July 24th, 2006, 12:54 AM

Not a native english speaker, but I do not think there's too much jargon there.

This is a technical issue, so there isn't much one can do to avoid using technical terms.

apollo1900

July 24th, 2006, 12:56 AM

Not a native english speaker, but I do not think there's too much jargon there.

This is a technical issue, so there isn't much one can do to avoid using technical terms.

Agreed! ;)

Engnome

July 24th, 2006, 01:41 AM

Ubuntu is suitable for both desktop and server use. The current Ubuntu release supports PC (Intel x86), 64-bit PC (AMD64) and PowerPC (Apple iBook and Powerbook, G4 and G5) architectures.

Asked my mom, she didn't understand at all :/

This guy has some good points: http://clearnightsky.com/node/242

henriquemaia

July 24th, 2006, 01:50 AM

Asked my mom, she didn't understand at all :/

This guy has some good points: http://clearnightsky.com/node/242

Maybe this project is more directed to your mom (or any user of her level):

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/SpreadUbuntu

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 03:21 AM

i dont't think the front page gets its point across quickly enough

in fact it needs to look a lot snappier, and the links to installation media could be much better organised.

Also it really needs to have minimum requirements listed. You really have to dig for some of this info. Most people aren't even going to hit up google to find these things out.

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 04:28 AM

As long as people have to install Ubuntu themselves, I don't think it matters. Look at Microsoft's Windows front page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx

Not very helpful. I couldn't find the minimum requirements listed anywhere. I had to do a separate Google search to find this page (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/upgrading/sysreqs.mspx).

And, of course, if you're doing separate Google searches for things, it's not that difficult to find Ubuntu's minimum requirements page (http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/hppa/ch03s04.html) either.

The key to Ubuntu's success with people who don't understand jargon--System 76 (http://www.system76.com), not Ubuntu.com (http://www.ubuntu.com/).

This is no different from people going to Dell (http://www.dell.com) to get Windows--not Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com).

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 05:10 AM

As long as people have to install Ubuntu themselves, I don't think it matters. Look at Microsoft's Windows front page:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx

Not very helpful. I couldn't find the minimum requirements listed anywhere. I had to do a separate Google search to find this page (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/upgrading/sysreqs.mspx).

this is a common complaint i have noticed

But I don't see what Microsoft has to do with any of this.

The key to Ubuntu's success with people who don't understand jargon--System 76, not Ubuntu.com.

This is no different from people going to Dell to get Windows--not Microsoft.

That's not going to work since 99% of the time people are installing over a system with windows preinstalled - they're very rarely going to buy a brand new system from an obscure hardware manufacturer (unlike a well-known company such as Dell) just to try out a different operating system.

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 05:17 AM

this is a common complaint i have noticed

But I don't see what Microsoft has to do with any of this. My point is that a lack of information on the front page isn't what stops people from using an operating system.

Plenty of people use Windows, even though there's very little helpful information on the Windows homepage on the Microsoft website.

That's not going to work since 99% of the time people are installing over a system with windows preinstalled - they're very rarely going to buy a brand new system from an obscure hardware manufacturer (unlike a well-known company such as Dell) just to try out a different operating system. Anyone who is savvy enough to install an operating system will know what the terms on the front of the Ubuntu website are or will look them up on Wikipedia to find out what they mean.

Anyone who finds those terms confusing and doesn't have the know-how to look them up... probably won't have much success installing Ubuntu themselves.

They will need to buy Ubuntu preinstalled... just as they do for Windows right now.

It just seems to me that a lot of people are living in an imaginary world where Ubuntu "needs" to cater to computer illiterate users, when the truth of the matter is that most people who migrate to Ubuntu are Windows power users or Windows experts. They're tech-savvy folks who know enough to not be confused by the "jargon" on the Ubuntu main site.

And the only thing that's going to change that is more people buying Ubuntu preinstalled--not changing a few words on the homepage so that people who know nothing about computers will download an ISO, burn it as data, have it not boot... or worse yet accidentally erase their entire hard drive because they don't know what a partition is.

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 05:31 AM

My point is that a lack of information on the front page isn't what stops people from using an operating system.

Plenty of people use Windows, even though there's very little helpful information on the Windows homepage on the Microsoft website.

In nearly all cases their system came preinstalled, so the MS page is irrelevant.

Anyone who finds those terms confusing and doesn't have the know-how to look them up... probably won't have much success installing Ubuntu themselves.

They will need to buy Ubuntu preinstalled... just as they do for Windows right now.

It just seems to me that a lot of people are living in an imaginary world where Ubuntu "needs" to cater to computer illiterate users, when the truth of the matter is that most people who migrate to Ubuntu are Windows power users or Windows experts. They're tech-savvy folks who know enough to not be confused by the "jargon" on the Ubuntu main site.

And the only thing that's going to change that is more people buying Ubuntu preinstalled--not changing a few words on the homepage so that people who know nothing about computers will download an ISO, burn it as data, have it not boot... or worse yet accidentally erase their entire hard drive because they don't know what a partition is.

And why shouldn't the default install process be made simple enough even for these types of people to understand? The whole idea of the Live CD represents a step towards this, I'd like to see them go all the way. And I believe it is fully possible to explain things like partitions to our imaginary grandma.

I'm not saying Ubuntu is hard to understand for most windows users (it isn't), but if you really want to solve Bug #1 you are going to have to appeal especially to the illiterate. But maybe that's pointless as long as there are no TV ad campaigns for Ubuntu.

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 05:45 AM

In nearly all cases their system came preinstalled, so the MS page is irrelevant. Exactly my point. Thanks.

And why shouldn't the default install process be made simple enough even for these types of people to understand? The whole idea of the Live CD represents a step towards this, I'd like to see them go all the way. So would I! I think we should try to make the installation process as easy for Windows power users as possible.
And I believe it is fully possible to explain things like partitions to our imaginary grandma. I don't. My real grandma would not be able to install even Mac OS X on an Apple computer.

I'm not saying Ubuntu is hard to understand for most windows users (it isn't), but if you really want to solve Bug #1 you are going to have to appeal especially to the illiterate. See, this is where I disagree. The real solution to bug #1 is Ubuntu preinstalled. The computer illiterate cannot install Windows. They cannot install OS X. There's no reason they would ever install Ubuntu, no matter how understandable the jargon was or how easy the installation was.

Hell, I know people who will pay professionals like the Geek Squad to install Microsoft Office. All you did is sticking the friggin' disk in and double-click the setup.exe file, click, click, click, and reboot. Recently, my wife had to set up iTunes for a twelve-year-old (I thought young folks were digitally hip these days). I cannot imagine people like my in-laws or my mother installing Ubuntu... ever. It doesn't matter if it's Dapper or Edgy or Edgy+1. If I tried to explain partitions to my mother in the simplest terms, she might understand, but she just wouldn't care.

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 06:32 AM

See, this is where I disagree. The real solution to bug #1 is Ubuntu preinstalled. The computer illiterate cannot install Windows. They cannot install OS X. There's no reason they would ever install Ubuntu, no matter how understandable the jargon was or how easy the installation was.

Hell, I know people who will pay professionals like the Geek Squad to install Microsoft Office. All you did is sticking the friggin' disk in and double-click the setup.exe file, click, click, click, and reboot. Recently, my wife had to set up iTunes for a twelve-year-old (I thought young folks were digitally hip these days). I cannot imagine people like my in-laws or my mother installing Ubuntu... ever. It doesn't matter if it's Dapper or Edgy or Edgy+1. If I tried to explain partitions to my mother in the simplest terms, she might understand, but she just wouldn't care.

It might hold water if any of the installation processes you mention were actually without complications, jargon or panic-inducing language : they're not, and to use them as examples of high usability is fallacious.

Why should people even be computer literate? As I understand it a (initially) totally transparent user interface is not impossible, nor difficult.

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 06:37 AM

In my experience, people who are computer illiterate have problems even with totally transparent user interfaces.

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 06:47 AM

In my experience, people who are computer illiterate have problems even with totally transparent user interfaces.

I haven't come across a single truly transparent UI/environment outside of certain, well-designed touchscreen systems.

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 06:51 AM

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 07:28 AM

Certain tasks, like installing an operating system, are too complex to be designed for people who have little knowledge of computers and little inclination to to acquire that knowledge. It doesn't matter how "transparent" you make the interface.

Installing an operating system for total illiterates:

1) put in CD
2) select "super simple ubuntu install for illiterates" or w/e and confirm
3) if disk can be automatically partitioned for desktop install, it's installed!

Setting up a user account can come on first reboot - resizing/removing partitions and adding/removing software can come later, when in the desktop environment. These themselves can be made super simple.

I don't see how any of this is too complex.

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 07:32 AM

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 07:43 AM

Well, I don't see how installing iTunes in Windows is difficult, but there are users who can't do such a simple task.

Tasks that you and I consider easy in computer-land many folks out there consider confusing.

thanks to tools like apt-get installation is only a matter of selecting wha t to install and confirming that.

Other install processes are more involved than that: in fact many windows applications (such as itunes) require configuration during the install process. This is avoidable.

Just because it's simple to you doesn't mean its a good baseline for simplicity.

kabus

July 24th, 2006, 07:54 AM

but if you really want to solve Bug #1 you are going to have to appeal especially to the illiterate.

No, you haven't. These people don't make the decisions, not even in their own home. They'll use whatever you put in front of them.

Why should people even be computer literate? As I understand it a (initially) totally transparent user interface is not impossible, nor difficult.

I'll believe it when I see a prototype.

schurtek

July 24th, 2006, 08:04 AM

Mmm... technical... has anyone tried to use the Microsoft (shudder) forums? Either you must pay Microsoft for telephonic support... or use their forums where their staff make up half the words...

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 08:14 AM

No, you haven't. These people don't make the decisions, not even in their own home. They'll use whatever you put in front of them.

Assuming people to be eternally incapable only encourages them to remain so.

Put an install CD in front of them and they'll put it in the machine. As things stand right now they'll immediately be stuck.

I'll believe it when I see a prototype.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h225/lapsey/monitor_touchscreen.gif

kabus

July 24th, 2006, 08:46 AM

Assuming people to be eternally incapable only encourages them to remain so.
[...]
As things stand right now they'll immediately be stuck.

You just admitted they are incapable.
I on the other hand assume no such thing, I believe that everybody is capable to learn. You seem to disagree.

<image snipped>

A screenshot of some kiosk system doesn't tell me anything.
If I can't use that 'well-designed touchscreen interface' to retouch photos, code, write my thesis, run server applications, compose music, edit videos, use various internet services, cad software and a million other things we aren't dealing with a general purpose computer anymore. You are comparing apples and oranges.

BWF89

July 24th, 2006, 02:21 PM

Well, I don't see how installing iTunes in Windows is difficult, but there are users who can't do such a simple task.

Tasks that you and I consider easy in computer-land many folks out there consider confusing.
My mom for instance. We recently switched from MSN internet to Comcast cable. Before that we had AOL. Before now shes always used the default software included with out internet connection, now that she has to use a browser I set her up useing Firefox. She constantly complains how Firefox isn't the same way MSN used to be and confused as to why she has to go to a website to check her email instead of it being built into the browser. She can't even figure out tabs. Everyday I get called up to the computer several times to explain to her how to do the most mondaine tasks. And what do I get for it? I get "Firefox is stupid, I liked MSN better", "Why can't Firefox be more like MSN?", and "I want to use Internet Explorer instead, but I have all my favorite places already in Firefox so it's be too much of a headache to switch". And now that she decided she doens't like her Comcast email account she wants me to set her up with a Microsoft Hotmail account, eventhough I set her up with a Gmail account.

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 02:51 PM

You just admitted they are incapable.
I on the other hand assume no such thing, I believe that everybody is capable to learn. You seem to disagree.

You said that these people don't make the decisions: this almost always comes about because of a lack of know-how. The learning curve has always been quite steep and with a gentler introduction to Ubuntu they will remain open to learning more.

A screenshot of some kiosk system doesn't tell me anything.
If I can't use that 'well-designed touchscreen interface' to retouch photos, code, write my thesis, run server applications, compose music, edit videos, use various internet services, cad software and a million other things we aren't dealing with a general purpose computer anymore. You are comparing apples and oranges.

I thought it was clear that I included that image as an example of the ideal simple graphical interface.

Most, if not all of the tasks you detail can be done via really simple interfaces - even via a touchscreen. Not that a mouse doesn't suffice.

And just because a interface is in play doesn't mean that others cant be used on the same machine: As a gnome user I don't have reinstall Ubuntu to use KDE, do I? They're not apples or oranges.

bruce89

July 24th, 2006, 03:03 PM

Well, I don't see how installing iTunes in Windows is difficult, but there are users who can't do such a simple task.

It's not that they can't, it's just that they choose not to bother learning how to.

My mom for instance. We recently switched from MSN internet to Comcast cable. Before that we had AOL. Before now shes always used the default software included with out internet connection, now that she has to use a browser I set her up useing Firefox. She constantly complains how Firefox isn't the same way MSN used to be and confused as to why she has to go to a website to check her email instead of it being built into the browser. She can't even figure out tabs. Everyday I get called up to the computer several times to explain to her how to do the most mondaine tasks. And what do I get for it? I get "Firefox is stupid, I liked MSN better", "Why can't Firefox be more like MSN?", and "I want to use Internet Explorer instead, but I have all my favorite places already in Firefox so it's be too much of a headache to switch". And now that she decided she doens't like her Comcast email account she wants me to set her up with a Microsoft Hotmail account, eventhough I set her up with a Gmail account.

I think most of what I am about to say was "inspired" by an earlier aysiu article.

This is the classic example of software inertia. People generally stay with what they have, as they either don't know about alternatives, or they just think the software they use at the moment is adequate.

If they are forced to change, everything that goes wrong is the new software's fault.

People don't like change usually.

Yossarian

July 24th, 2006, 03:36 PM

Much of the discussion here is technical, so correct use of terminology is expected.

However, there's too-many damned cliches used around here. It's annoying. "Ready for prime time", "Joe six pack", "Showstopper", etc. These phrases often warn that a thread is going downhill.

kabus

July 24th, 2006, 03:42 PM

The learning curve has always been quite steep and with a gentler introduction to Ubuntu they will remain open to learning more.

So I guess that's a retraction of your former 'why should people even be computer-literate' position?

I thought it was clear that I included that image as an example of the ideal simple graphical interface.

You claimed that a 'a (initially) totally transparent user interface is not impossible, nor difficult.'
When I asked for proof you presented the touchscreen interface of a kiosk system. Since the functionality of a kiosk system is in no a way as broad as that of a general purpose OS it is no surprise that these things have a very simple, 'transparent' user interface.
I see no evidence that this would translate well to more complex systems.

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 04:35 PM

So I guess that's a retraction of your former 'why should people even be computer-literate' position?

Not at all. Tally that with my supposed retraction and the argument is "People shouldn't be computer literate in order to get started".

We can't modify every interface overnight: to have the most immediate effect education is they key.

A car analogy for you: In the future we will just step into our vehicles and tell it where to go. But right now we still need to take lessons for manual operation. I am saying these lessons could be even more accessible.

You claimed that a 'a (initially) totally transparent user interface is not impossible, nor difficult.'
When I asked for proof you presented the touchscreen interface of a kiosk system. Since the functionality of a kiosk system is in no a way as broad as that of a general purpose OS it is no surprise that these things have a very simple, 'transparent' user interface.
I see no evidence that this would translate well to more complex systems.

Consider the huge amount of complexity that goes into a forum, on a server, on the internet, on a telecom system. All of this is simplified to the point that anyone can type some words into a box and hit 'submit reply'.
20 years ago many wouldn't have thought it possible to simplify to this extent because the end-users needs would be so broad. Yet it has happened.

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 04:38 PM

We can't modify every interface overnight: to have the most immediate effect education is they key. People have to want to be educated. You can't force someone to learn something new.

A car analogy for you: In the future we will just step into our vehicles and tell it where to go. And I'm saying that even if "driving" a car were that simple, there would still be people who were afraid to "learn" how to do it.

lapsey

July 24th, 2006, 04:45 PM

People have to want to be educated. You can't force someone to learn something new.

And I'm saying that even if "driving" a car were that simple, there would still be people who were afraid to "learn" how to do it.

If the approach is gentle enough, people learn how to do things without even realising it.

aysiu

July 24th, 2006, 04:51 PM

If the approach is gentle enough, people learn how to do things without even realising it.
I'm sorry, but having taught high school English for five years in both public and private schools, I just haven't seen that to be true. You can try your best to make things "gentle" or to cultivate an atmosphere that encourages people to get interested in a subject, but if someone has closed her mind off to something, you cannot force her to learn it.

kabus

July 24th, 2006, 05:13 PM

Consider the huge amount of complexity that goes into a forum, on a server, on the internet, on a telecom system. All of this is simplified to the point that anyone can type some words into a box and hit 'submit reply'.
20 years ago many wouldn't have thought it possible to simplify to this extent because the end-users needs would be so broad. Yet it has happened.

A forum is an internet application, not an abstraction of the inner workings of the internet.
User needs are obviously still broad since there are so many different internet protocols and applications using completely different interfaces of varying complexity, not a single, simple, 'transparent' one.
But let's not get further entangled in these metaphors, let us just agree to disagree.:)