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macguges
December 23rd, 2013, 08:30 PM
It's time for my winter holiday break so I'm visiting my parents again, which means I'm giving my dad more help with his computer. This year I realized I cannot continue simply yield to his requests to fix his Linux pc. My dad is a retired Kodak engineer, who still uses his pc for his patent research work, so I imagine that I can use my time better by coaching him, encouraging him to adopt these forums. I remember I'd recommended Ubuntu Linux to him in particular because I know it has such a vigorous support community. Even if I may know "a lot" about Linux, I cannot know "a lot" about Ubuntu. Recently I've been using Gentoo and now LFS, so the solutions that occur naturally to me are not suitable to a user of his knowledge level. But on these forums, I realize, there are hundreds of people who use primarily Ubuntu Linux each day who understand the Ubuntu-appropriate Way to Do It. But this understanding of the Ubuntu forums, my father does not share, yet.

Today we worked together to respond to his newest support thread, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2194669, where he'd received a few useful responses to his question. I sat beside him, patiently guiding him through use of the terminal, editing his fstab, and posting a new reply to the thread. I guess the experience was very stressful for him, but he succeeded at making an effective change to his fstab, so those old drives he wanted to see will appear consistently now. Though Nautilus is now showing some duplicate entries, which produce some error messages; he felt very frustrated by that, but I encouraged him to post a full account to his thread.

I'd like to hear from other people who've been coaching new users with the support forums. What suggestions do you have? What is most important to guide someone new, to give them the confidence to continue working?

My concern right now is that my dad would simply give up, "you can't teach an old dog new tricks", without my persistence. Persistence, of course, is key to success in anything. I don't expect my dad to memorize a hundred commands for the unix shell, but hope that he gains the confidence to continue working with others.

grahammechanical
December 23rd, 2013, 09:54 PM
As someone who has just retired I would say, do not write off your old man just yet and do not allow him to dismiss his own capability to learn new things. If you both do that then he is lost even before you begin.

My second point would be to remember that from the beginning Ubuntu is intended for humans and not geeks. It should be possible to do most if not everything in Ubuntu without using the command line.

I am curious as to why he continues to ask you to fix his Linux PC. What is breaking? The less we mess with the OS the less likely it is that we will break something. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. From reading posts on this forum I have come to the conclusion that many people hit problems because they make changes that it is best not to make unless we are using the OS to experiment and learn from.

Perhaps, you should put in a second install of Ubuntu as a fallback. I test the Ubuntu development version and I always keep at least one install of Ubuntu that I do not mess with so that I can fallback to it when the development version breaks. Do not mess with your work OS is my advice.

Regards.

Old_Grey_Wolf
December 24th, 2013, 12:01 AM
I am retired. I am the one that introduced my children and grandchildren to Linux. Some chose to use Linux and others didn't. Each have their own preference. The children prefer their tablets and the grandchildren prefer their phones. :)

When it comes to posting on the Ubuntu support forums I suggest reading the posting tips (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2158945).

buzzingrobot
December 24th, 2013, 12:47 AM
I have no magic answers to your specific questions. But, I will, for what it's worth, add this:

1. Software that is functioning properly does not break or go awry on its own. Stuff happens because something changed. Most of the time, it's the user who changed things. Could dad be convinced to check with you before installing each new gizmo? Better that than be the eventual on-site fix-it guy after the damage is done and forgotten.

2. Installing software *only* from the official Ubuntu repos is a good recipe for increased stability. I find PPA's to be a mixed bag, with even software from well-known PPA's triggering crashes and errors. In particular, I've had PPA's break routine updates because they created dependencies that, later on, became unresolvable.

3. Doing things in Linux like you do things in Windows is asking for trouble. If dad is doing that, he needs to stop.

4. I know this is often difficult or impossible to manage, but life gets simpler when you walk away from Windows entirely. Look at the posts in these forums and see how many are related to some kind of dual-boot scenario, over and over, day in and day out.
.

macguges
December 24th, 2013, 01:32 AM
Thank you, Graham, for your encouragement. As I'd reminded him just this afternoon, change is the only constant in our lives.

I agree with you, that the less my Dad has to use the shell, the better off he'll be. The more often he can modify his system in the standard, expected way the less often he ought to encounter unexpected problems. Part of our problem is that I'm no expert on the Ubuntu Way - I got started with Slackware twenty years ago, and haven't had much experience tutoring new Linux users in the meantime.

This past week he told me about his old Windows hard drive, which would not consistently appear in his Nautilus file browser, so I encouraged him to post a new request on the forums. Seeing he'd gotten some responses, we followed the instructions he'd received. That is how he happened to be using the shell today. I believe it's important for us to follow instructions received here, to demonstrate to him that the forums can provide useful help, help that is more appropriate to him. I doubt I was completely successful in that today.

I don't know all that was broken this year. As you say, installing non-standard software and following old Windows habits is a recipe for trouble. I knew that both line-in and sound playback weren't working. Last month I told him that running the installation CD again would restore sound, if that was all that mattered to him, and so he did that. I know he's interested in running a Windows investment program, VectorVest 7, under Wine. (Dad's told me in the past that he would consider using Linux if he could continue to use his favorite programs.) I know he's interested in running Skype. He continues to dual-boot with Windows XP, an installation that's become pretty flaky, but he keeps it for situations for which Linux isn't working for him. Anyway he could tell you more, if we can persuade him to visit the forums.

Circumstances are that the time I have to assist him has become very limited. He remembers the days while I was unemployed and living at home when he could buzz me and I'd be right there to fix anything. Now I know it may be weeks after something breaks for him before I can visit, and still I may have only an evening to make something work - not enough time to triage anything tricky. I see that he knows enough to follow clear, simple instructions in Linux, and that he's capable of technical communication online.

Anyway, I'm grateful to all of you who have responded. BudTuba read grahammechanical's response, said he understood where he was coming from. I'm feeling more confident about our chances now.

MartyBuntu
December 24th, 2013, 04:55 AM
Are you sure your father even wants to use Linux?

Is he just humouring you because:

a) you are enthusiastic about it

...or...

b) he sees the experience as just an opportunity to spend time with his kid

Bucky Ball
December 24th, 2013, 05:18 AM
I built a linux computer for my mother-in-law in 2009, by her request. Sweet machine with Ubuntu 8.04 LTS originally, through to 10.04 LTS and just got back from the christmas visit with them (they live 750Km away) and I installed Xubuntu 12.04 LTS to keep her going for another few years. She, despite my urgings in the early days, will NOT go anywhere near the forums or asking questions here or on any other forums. She is very intelligent and cluey, picks things up quickly, but there is some block there.

My theory? KISS (keep it simple, stupid). The fewer moving parts the better. LTS, definitely. I'm curious with the other poster who asks, 'Why does your dad's machine keep breaking?' As I mention, my m-i-law lives miles away, I see that machine one or twice a year and it needs to be stable. I never hear from her nowadays. It just works.

If your father is experimenting with stuff and breaking, then perhaps it is up to him to find a fix. But it is up to you to make the machine as rock-solid as possible in the first place (if you're rushing round to install the latest release a day after it is released, you're doing it wrong - that machine should be on 12.04 LTS to make your, and his, lives easier). If you have the time, do a minimal install and add ONLY the apps he uses and whack on xfce4 as the desktop environment. Like I say, simple and very few moving parts.

I'm also curious: does he actually want to be using this OS or would he, in reality, be more comfortable using Win or Mac???

DuckHook
December 24th, 2013, 07:43 AM
Are you sure your father even wants to use Linux?

Is he just humouring you because:

a) you are enthusiastic about it

...or...

b) he sees the experience as just an opportunity to spend time with his kid

I'm also curious: does he actually want to be using this OS or would he, in reality, be more comfortable using Win or Mac???
Very insightful posts. Not trying to be armchair psychoanalyst here, but these are definitely considerations worth thinking about.

On the technical side, I would alert you to a further alternative that has worked well for me—complete with one big, big caveat: you can install a VNC host on his machine, configure it securely, and support him remotely. This allows you to respond in a more timely fashion to his IT needs and has the side benefit of keeping the two of you in touch more often in an informal setting.

The caveat is that such a setup must be configured securely or you are just asking for major trouble. It needs to be tunneled through SSH or VPN that is in turn key/certificate-based with passwords disabled. If your first priority is not security, or it is implemented poorly, then you could find his /home directory wiped out one day, or even his bank account emptied out by some scumbag who has spied on his banking sessions. I don't want to spook you though. Properly set up, VNC is a great tool that gives you both the space and distance you need to do your own thing while still keeping in contact with your Dad.

I wholeheartedly agree with MartyBuntu and Bucky Ball. I think you need reflect as to what is truly the best solution for your Dad. Not for you, but for your Dad. Perhaps it's actually about having more beers with him while he continues in the Windows environment in which he is comfortable.

Re: forums.

Like many of those who have already given you advice, I'm also retired. The reason that a lot of people find the forums intimidating is because they tend to be filled with young gurus who are technically astounding but who have neither the time nor the inclination to give answers other than those which are abrupt and to-the-point. Sometimes, we old-timers are looking more for a conversation in which the actual solution is only part of a larger exploration and discussion process. It took me a long time even to figure out how to phrase Google queries to return the best results. You young squirts have grown up with this technology and it is as natural to you as breathing. For people like my wife, it's just one step removed from sorcery.

You may want to introduce your Dad to social networking, reconnecting with his friends and business associates through the net, and sites which are less about technical issues and more people-centric. Frankly, the Ubuntu forums, as supportive as they may be, are not only still technical in nature, but quite narrowly so. I may have made wonderful friends here, but it's with people who share my passion in Linux. If he is not really into computers or operating systems, then what he will find here cannot possibly engage his interest in the long term. It's like asking a person with no interest in cooking to figure out his meal plan by joining a foodie forum. It's just not realistic.

bashiergui
December 24th, 2013, 08:28 AM
The man's an engineer, he's no dummy. A little manipulation goes a long way. Perhaps the old man uses your tech support as an excuse to bring you home. And perhaps he'd appreciate assurances that you'll still come visit and spend quality time with him even when he's fully capapble of fixing it himself.

Just food for thought.

monkeybrain20122
December 24th, 2013, 10:09 AM
The man's an engineer, he's no dummy. A little manipulation goes a long way. Perhaps the old man uses your tech support as an excuse to bring you home. And perhaps he'd appreciate assurances that you'll still come visit and spend quality time with him even when he's fully capapble of fixing it himself.

Just food for thought.

Agreed. I was reading this and I kept thinking, this doesn't sound right. The guy is an engineer, but OP makes him sound like my dad. :) I also find the post a bit patronizing, being older != being stupid or unwillingness to learn new things. It is a very wrong stereotype.

rewyllys
December 24th, 2013, 05:30 PM
Agreed. I was reading this and I kept thinking, this doesn't sound right. The guy is an engineer, but OP makes him sound like my dad. :) I also find the post a bit patronizing, being older != being stupid or unwillingness to learn new things. It is a very wrong stereotype.
+1 on your comments, MonkeyBrain.

SeijiSensei
December 24th, 2013, 05:54 PM
Like others have suggested, using a stable "LTS" version of Ubuntu, like 12.04LTS is the only way to go.

If your father finds the Unity desktop on 12.04LTS unappealing, I suggest Lubuntu, which uses the LXDE environment. It looks more like tradtional windows with a task bar at the bottom of the screen and a menu in the "Start" location. (Kubuntu with KDE is another possibility, but it requires more computing horsepower than Lubuntu.)

macguges
December 24th, 2013, 06:57 PM
Agreed. I was reading this and I kept thinking, this doesn't sound right. The guy is an engineer, but OP makes him sound like my dad. :) I also find the post a bit patronizing, being older != being stupid or unwillingness to learn new things. It is a very wrong stereotype.


The man's an engineer, he's no dummy. A little manipulation goes a long way. Perhaps the old man uses your tech support as an excuse to bring you home. And perhaps he'd appreciate assurances that you'll still come visit and spend quality time with him even when he's fully capapble of fixing it himself.

Just food for thought.


Very insightful posts. Not trying to be armchair psychoanalyst here, but these are definitely considerations worth thinking about.
...
I wholeheartedly agree with MartyBuntu and Bucky Ball. I think you need reflect as to what is truly the best solution for your Dad. Not for you, but for your Dad. Perhaps it's actually about having more beers with him while he continues in the Windows environment in which he is comfortable.
...



Are you sure your father even wants to use Linux?

Is he just humouring you because:

a) you are enthusiastic about it

...or...

b) he sees the experience as just an opportunity to spend time with his kid

Thanks again to everyone who has responded to this thread. It is very reassuring to see this evidence of compassionate insight into the situation of my father and I.

My dad read the first part of this thread over my shoulder this morning. I pointed out to him again that he could choose to use Windows, and he insisted that he prefers Linux. You see, he can be pretty stubborn.

Truly our difficulty is not entirely technical. To the poster who says, "older != being stupid or unwillingness to learn new things" I agree completely. It has been vexing for me to observe the definite advances in his understanding of computers over the years along with his insistence that he cannot learn X. For example, the motherboard in BudTuba's computer is one that he selected and installed himself. He sent me a link to an eBay auction, asking me to confirm his selection, and when I could not respond in time he just bought it. He's used google frequently to trawl linux forums for suggestions of how to solve his problems, often asking me whether he should follow advice given for another poster's situation.

Certainly I've considered how much his use of Linux is motivated by our relationship, but there are practical considerations to using Linux. If he were to convert to Windows 7 today, he might have to buy new hardware again besides all new software, which would certainly be a stress on the finances. And who else but I would he turn to when stuff breaks on that new system, a guy whose had even less experience with 7 than with XP? I don't observe such a strong community as Ubuntu's over there to steer him towards. Yet while I've been contemplating what should work best for my dad's computing for the past several months, I can still be mistaken. Please, if you may have a compelling counter-argument to us continuing to work with Ubuntu Linux, do respond.

macguges
December 24th, 2013, 07:01 PM
I recall he was using Lubuntu for a short while this summer, until he reinstalled Ubuntu over it. I'd learned there was an issue of the new Unity3D being flaky with his motherboard graphics chipset, so I'd installed Lubuntu for him for stability.

macguges
December 24th, 2013, 07:21 PM
Like many of those who have already given you advice, I'm also retired. The reason that a lot of people find the forums intimidating is because they tend to be filled with young gurus who are technically astounding but who have neither the time nor the inclination to give answers other than those which are abrupt and to-the-point. Sometimes, we old-timers are looking more for a conversation in which the actual solution is only part of a larger exploration and discussion process. It took me a long time even to figure out how to phrase Google queries to return the best results. You young squirts have grown up with this technology and it is as natural to you as breathing. For people like my wife, it's just one step removed from sorcery.

You may want to introduce your Dad to social networking, reconnecting with his friends and business associates through the net, and sites which are less about technical issues and more people-centric. Frankly, the Ubuntu forums, as supportive as they may be, are not only still technical in nature, but quite narrowly so. I may have made wonderful friends here, but it's with people who share my passion in Linux. If he is not really into computers or operating systems, then what he will find here cannot possibly engage his interest in the long term. It's like asking a person with no interest in cooking to figure out his meal plan by joining a foodie forum. It's just not realistic.

I hear what you're saying, DuckHook. I hope that my father will meet more people here like yourself, who are less abrupt and more conversational. I admit to being confused by my father. As I described yesterday, sometimes he can appear quite discouraged and weary at the computer, but at others he has definitely shown great enthusiasm for Linux. Don't forget that my dad is an engineer, now working by researching the commercial applicability of patents.

MartyBuntu
December 24th, 2013, 08:07 PM
A Virtualbox install for a few months until he gets a steady feel for it, so he can always fall back on Windows, to which support is ubiquitous.

macguges
December 24th, 2013, 08:36 PM
I am curious as to why he continues to ask you to fix his Linux PC. What is breaking? The less we mess with the OS the less likely it is that we will break something.




Installing software *only* from the official Ubuntu repos is a good recipe for increased stability. I find PPA's to be a mixed bag, with even software from well-known PPA's triggering crashes and errors. In particular, I've had PPA's break routine updates because they created dependencies that, later on, became unresolvable.




If your father is experimenting with stuff and breaking, then perhaps it is up to him to find a fix. But it is up to you to make the machine as rock-solid as possible in the first place (if you're rushing round to install the latest release a day after it is released, you're doing it wrong - that machine should be on 12.04 LTS to make your, and his, lives easier). If you have the time, do a minimal install and add ONLY the apps he uses and whack on xfce4 as the desktop environment. Like I say, simple and very few moving parts.



On the technical side, I would alert you to a further alternative that has worked well for me—complete with one big, big caveat: you can install a VNC host on his machine, configure it securely, and support him remotely. This allows you to respond in a more timely fashion to his IT needs and has the side benefit of keeping the two of you in touch more often in an informal setting.

The caveat is that such a setup must be configured securely or you are just asking for major trouble. It needs to be tunneled through SSH or VPN that is in turn key/certificate-based with passwords disabled. If your first priority is not security, or it is implemented poorly, then you could find his /home directory wiped out one day, or even his bank account emptied out by some scumbag who has spied on his banking sessions. I don't want to spook you though. Properly set up, VNC is a great tool that gives you both the space and distance you need to do your own thing while still keeping in contact with your Dad.


Before responding to the technical recommendations, I can explain briefly about my own availability. For the past two years I've been a resident of the training program at the Rochester Zen Center (http://www.rzc.org). You can read all about it on our website, but for our purposes this amounts to a very demanding work schedule. Though I do have four weeks off each year (this one in the winter, two in August, and another is my choice), for the rest of the year I'm committed to RZC's rigorous daily schedule besides all of our sesshins in Batavia (totalling about two months each year).

Last winter I considered setting up VNC with a SSH tunnel to my dad's computer. I'd set up a free domain with afraid.org and had confirmed I could login to sshd on his pc. Then Dad reported that Ubuntu had entered an unbootable state, so he reinstalled Ubuntu. I learned that his motherboard bios does some unusual things reporting drive order, which was bad news for his dual-booting scenario. Obviously I can't use VNC to troubleshoot his BIOS settings. This summer I realized that overcoming these complications was unlikely to gain me much more time for troubleshooting. As flaky as his Windows XP installation is, it continues to serve him for certain applications he needs for work, so he won't be switching to a stable single-boot situation soon.

I've told him that if I'm going to take responsibility for his computer then I would need to drastically simplify it, as Bucky Ball suggests. The only practical alternative that I can see if for him to accept guidance from these forums. I will be happy to coach him in using these forums, which would be educational for us both. After all, I might be experienced in Linux but I haven't received the Ubuntu dharma.

DuckHook
December 24th, 2013, 10:17 PM
...being confused by my father. As I described yesterday, sometimes he can appear quite discouraged and weary at the computer, but at others he has definitely shown great enthusiasm for Linux.I'm only giving you a small slice of a much larger picture and generalizing outrageously, but I hope you may find what follows to be useful:

As we get older, it isn't so easy to pick up quickly on new things. What comes easy to you involves a considerable effort to us because the ol' noggin is simply not as nimble anymore. As a rule, what older people bring to the table is not quickness and invention, but experience and an intuitive sense of what works and what to avoid.

The problem is that learning a new OS involves more quickness and invention than it does experience and intuition. At least, early on it does. And like anything else that requires a lot of effort, one has to feel that the reward is worth the effort in order to continue sweating blood.

The other factor here that young people often don't fullly understand is: we've climbed our share of mountains in life. Given your dad's profession, he's climbed a gawdawful lot of them. We don't have to prove anything more to others or to ourselves. And for some of us, we're just tired of climbing any more mountains. Hills are okay. We can even look forward to hills. But mountains are for you young people—full of the zest and energy that we once had in so much abundance—and that we are now so proud to see in you.

Extrapolating from this, you may be able to sense what will work for your dad and what won't... if you humanize his learning experience—turning it into an engagement experience rather than a sterile "learning" exercise—then it's much easier for him to sense the relevance in the process and become engaged. I state again that expecting him to just jump into the forums as his main source of support is not realistic.

You've received excellent technical advice on this thread. If he needs XP, then as MartyBuntu suggests, I too recommend installing it as a VM. Between a rock-solid base install, a secure VNC setup, and XP boxed within a VM, I suspect that your dad will have enough resources and support to continue developing his knowledge at his own leisure and pace. If you explain it clearly, I'm sure your father will appreciate that he shouldn't go changing the base OS again unless he is indeed prepared to go it alone. But who knows? There may actually soon come a time when he is prepared to go it alone.

Off to the feast soon, so likely won't be signing in for a few days now. To all forum members, young and old alike, have the very merriest of Christmases and my your lives always be blessed with peace, joy and the comfort of family and friends.

MartyBuntu
December 24th, 2013, 10:33 PM
Well put!

:D

monkeybrain20122
December 25th, 2013, 12:36 AM
As we get older, it isn't so easy to pick up quickly on new things. What comes easy to you involves a considerable effort to us because the ol' noggin is simply not as nimble anymore. As a rule, what older people bring to the table is not quickness and invention, but experience and an intuitive sense of what works and what to avoid.
.

Actually, there are some recent research in neuroplasticity indicating that this is not true. There is evidence the brain retains much of its agility way into relatively old age (hence plasticity) It is perhaps a psychological thing that older people appear to be or even feel slower. Cultural perceptions also play a role, if a young guy is not so fast in picking things up no one would think much of it or simply attribute it to stupidity, whereas for older people it is immediately taken as an indication of decline. it is reinforced and becomes an expectation.

I am 35 but I am quite fascinated by this when observing how older friends and relatives perceive themselves and act according to their perceptions and cultural expectations(you will appreciate that it actually takes a very strong role if you have lived among different cultures). I would concede that very young children do demonstrate an agility of the mind that leaves most adults in the dust, but that window closes pretty early so is irrelevant to ageing.

macguges
December 25th, 2013, 01:35 AM
Actually, there are some recent research in neuroplasticity indicating that this is not true. There is evidence the brain retains much of its agility way into relatively old age (hence plasticity) It is perhaps a psychological thing that older people appear to be or even feel slower. Cultural perceptions also play a role, if a young guy is not so fast in picking things up no one would think much of it or simply attribute it to stupidity, whereas for older people it is immediately taken as an indication of decline. it is reinforced and becomes an expectation.

I am 35 but I am quite fascinated by this when observing how older friends and relatives perceive themselves and act according to their perceptions and cultural expectations(you will appreciate that it actually takes a very strong role if you have lived among different cultures). I would concede that very young children do demonstrate an agility of the mind that leaves most adults in the dust, but that window closes pretty early so is irrelevant to ageing.

I actually have observed this myself, during my recent time at the Zen center. As the RZC is one of the oldest centers for Zen meditation in the United States, I've met several of our members who have been meditating regularly for 20 or 30 years or longer. From what I've observed it is definitely possible to maintain the mind's agility into old age.

AllenGG
December 25th, 2013, 05:36 PM
Hola! Mac, you have started a great topic, one not easily ignored.

First. All of the responses, so far, truly indicate the need for a "mentoring" system with Ubuntu.
Next, most "older" people build barriers to learning and adapting, usually based on negative experience.

Personally , i have converted many of my friends to Linux, usually Mint or Ubuntu, and yes, they occasionally ask for help.

For rapid response help, this works: Go to Google, type in "Ubuntu" then the problem,
example: "ubuntu: video problem", or "ubuntu grub/rescue" .

The reason that I've converted some people to Linux is the I have had my fill of fixing MS Windows problems (garbage).

But..................fixing "Cryptolocker" is way beyond my purview.

Happy holidays to all, from Mazatlan,
Allen...........................http://ubuntuforums.org/images/icons/icon6.png

Old_Grey_Wolf
December 25th, 2013, 11:27 PM
Next, most "older" people build barriers to learning and adapting, usually based on negative experience.

That statement makes me think you are not very old.

Old people have to learn and adapt more than some people realize; however, not necessarily in the area of technology. Some of us can no longer work for various reasons; such as, health issues or no one will hire someone in their 60's or 70's. We have to learn to adapt to living on a significantly lower income. Basic survival is more important than keeping up with the latest technology or having the newest must have gadget.

Think about living on half or less of what you make now, putting food on the table, a roof over your head, and having physical limitations without relying on anybody for help. ;)

AllenGG
December 26th, 2013, 03:29 AM
Thank you.