Do you think facebook is spying on people? (not rhetorical)

[64bitiso]

Do you consider facebook to blatantly exploit and abuse the data people upload to it, under the convenient "everyone uses it" line?

I do. I'm not here trolling - I am asking for details if any are known, since the issue of privacy is becoming more relevant to me now. Note - I'm far from paranoid about them - I have lots of photos of myself up there (carefully chosen, mind) - but if they are doing something immoral or outright exploitative, I am seriously considering "damage limitation" - IE, I cannot *undo* stuff already uploaded, but *I CAN* remove my account, and refuse to continue being a part of it. I am willing to sacrifice the "convenience" (??!! - read - ANNOYANCE! inane nature!!) of facebook, for the relative inconvenience of not being able to *immediately* contact friends and family.

Aside from the privacy issues, I feel (anti)-social media discourages people to get off their bums, WALK to someone's house and have a cuppa tea with them!

Thoughts and insight? technical as you like - thanks :)

[coldraven]

I don't use Facebook, I never have. I also block all Facebook trackers and buttons. Facebook can track the usage of non-Facebook users.
More to point, Facebook is free but relies on people filling it with content. Once they have done that all the content belongs to Facebook and is used by them to generate money. Personally I don't want my stuff being used to advertise unknown products.
If you want to find out how insidious these trackers are then install Collusion in Firefox, I bet you will paranoid after that :)
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/collusion/

P.S. I use NoScript, BetterPrivacy, RefControl, AdBlockPlus and Ghostery add-ons in Firefox

P.P.S. I tried to join Paranoids Anonymous but they wouldn't tell me where the meetings are held :)

[lz1dsb]

Aside from the privacy issues, I feel (anti)-social media discourages people to get off their bums, WALK to someone's house and have a cuppa tea with them!


That's a nice point. I do find that the people nowadays are more and more closed... Could be the social media, could be the way we live our lives... But definitely the social media is contributing to that...

[buzzingrobot]

You can't control how the net works. You can't remove your IP address from your packets or erase server logs. But, you can control what you publish about yourself on the net. That's the best way to protect your privacy. If you want to keep it to yourself, don't post it.

I'vre never been on Facebook. But, remember that any business needs to make money some way. Facebook makes money buy selling and leveraging the aggregate data trail left behind buy its users.

Remember, too, that most of the tracking people complain about is built into the structure of the net. It works because every device on the net is uniquely identified. If that unique ID wasn't remembered, even if only for the duration of a single packet transaction, the net wouldn't work. How long the data is retained and what's done with them then becomes a decision to be made by each of us, whether were running a browser on a laptop or running huge server farms.

Is having the tracks of your net activity show up as a few atoms of data in a giant flood of aggregated data a privacy threat? That depends on your point of view.

Is protecting yourself from deliberate efforts to target you personally a smart thing to do? Of course, but's that's more a matter of crime than privacy.

[Linuxratty]

I don't use it,never have,never will. In a nutshell,I think everyone and their brother is spying on us,tracking us and sticking their noses in our business for personal gain.

[Paqman]

Do you consider facebook to blatantly exploit and abuse the data people upload to it, under the convenient "everyone uses it" line?


I don't think there's any question of whether or not they exploit the data you give them. That's the whole point of Facebook. You provide them with data about yourself which they use to target advertising at you, and in return they provide a service that allows you to interact with people. Same as every other "free" service online really.

[64bitiso]

I don't think there's any question of whether or not they exploit the data you give them. That's the whole point of Facebook. You provide them with data about yourself which they use to target advertising at you, and in return they provide a service that allows you to interact with people. Same as every other "free" service online really.

Uhm, no - the "whole point" of Facebook, originally, was for people to connect with old friends and socialise. I'd rather I pay £10 a year and DO NOT get abused, than be abused and spammed.

Yes, I know I can leave - that's the point of me making these enquiries, in case you bring that up :)

[RichardET]

There is zero difference between facebook and google. I don't use facebook because I don't want to help zukkerguy become richer. But at the risk of being called a hypocrite, I do use google. But look, the phone company sells your data and the cable company knows everything about you, since you use their connectors to watch any TV. All so called serious news channels are mainly commercials, not news, and probably most of the content of any news program is designed with the advertisers in mind. "Psychology Today" never ran anti-smoking stories because the tobacco companies would pull their advertising if they did. Similarly Duke Univ. did not do much anti smoking research due to the Duke Family influence. Every time you sign up for any forum or website, you give your email address and you agree to whatever terms they demand or you can't use the service its providing. Over on the openSUSE forums, making fun of Microsoft was always allowed, until it morphed in a criticism of Novell cross licensing with Microsoft, then those posts were banned. Interesting. The point is - corporations all have way to much sway over our lives and influence and we the buying public allow it and actually want it. In China, as far as I understand it, facebook is blocked.

[Paqman]

Uhm, no - the "whole point" of Facebook, originally, was for people to connect with old friends and socialise.

Maybe in it's original university-based iteration, but once it became successful enough to become a business (ie: very rapidly) it adopted the business model I described above. These guys weren't interested in setting up a charity. They always had an eye on how to pay the bills. The idea is simple: the users are the product. Give them a service they can use for free, then you get to sell their eyeballs to advertisers. It's the same business model most online services use.

[64bitiso]

Maybe in it's original university-based iteration, but once it became successful enough to become a business (ie: very rapidly) it adopted the business model I described above. These guys weren't interested in setting up a charity. They always had an eye on how to pay the bills. The idea is simple: the users are the product. Give them a service they can use for free, then you get to sell their eyeballs to advertisers. It's the same business model most online services use.

That's all people seem to care about; convenience over freedom. Suckers are everywhere, and most people *know* that facebook can exploit them, yet, do NOTHING about it. Never ONCE have I responded to ANY advertising facebook has force-fed into my face - I just installed "adblock plus", and adios to spam, for the time whilst I am still on it (for now).

When you contemptuously FORCE ads into your user's face, that detracts and distracts massively from the "product" (let's face it - I'm using this term for recognition - it's FAR from a "product"), you are showing the utter contempt and exploitative attitude you have towards them. Where do all the billions of revenue that FB make, go? Development? I very much doubt it - the site hasn't changed substantially for YEARS, and is riddled with annoying quirks that never get fixed.

I'm unsure of whether you are *justifying* facebook by saying "it's the same as what others do" - but that's not an excuse - that's just a cop out. That makes facebook as bad (or worse!) than the others. They have a VERY unimaginative, unoriginal business plan, in that case - can't they think up an *ethical* way to operate? With the BILLIONS of dollars they leech from people, they could PAY someone to dream up a fairer way to operate - I won't hold my breath though! ^___^

What an apathetic attitude society has to being exploited.


PS: I'm sure the ridiculous amount of profit they make, MORE than "pays the bills", and then some!

[buzzingrobot]

That's all people seem to care about; convenience over freedom

See my post above for my position on this.

But, I need to ask, specifically what freedom does someone lose when they use Facebook?

The freedom to avoid Facebook? Rather easy to remedy.

Do you feel exploited when you go to a grocery and find that the store is designed to make you walk by all kinds of tempting and expensive impulse buys before you get to the back of the store where the eggs and milk are located?

Do you feel your privacy violated when you're at the mall and a bell rings when you enter a shop?

Are you violated by routine web site referrers?

Facebook is voluntary. If people don't like what it does, they can leave.

The appropriate way to protect your privacy is to manage your own activities to avoid behavior that does. Eveyone will respond differently.

[64bitiso]

See my post above for my position on this.

But, I need to ask, specifically what freedom does someone lose when they use Facebook?

The freedom to avoid Facebook? Rather easy to remedy.

Do you feel exploited when you go to a grocery and find that the store is designed to make you walk by all kinds of tempting and expensive impulse buys before you get to the back of the store where the eggs and milk are located?

Do you feel your privacy violated when you're at the mall and a bell rings when you enter a shop?

Are you violated by routine web site referrers?

Facebook is voluntary. If people don't like what it does, they can leave.

The appropriate way to protect your privacy is to manage your own activities to avoid behavior that does. Eveyone will respond differently.

Fair comment - you've missed the point though - not everyone KNOWS - they are naive - people are being exploited - dress it up however you like, it still happens.




"Do you feel exploited when you go to a grocery and find that the store is designed to make you walk by all kinds of tempting and expensive impulse buys before you get to the back of the store where the eggs and milk are located?"


Uhm... yes, but I am not an idiot - all the same, yes - of course. Don't you?

It doesn't take away my joy though - I'm aware and conscious of it, and ONLY buy what I went in for - but of course I feel exploited (not in an "Oh NO!!" way), but I know that it is these marketing folks who are fools, as they haven't a decent idea between them, else they'd not have to use such pathetic means to sell people trvial, superficial CRAP they do not *need*.

[1clue]

If you read their terms of use, they're not spying on you. You explicitly agree to let them use certain types of data, or you don't get to use the service.

There's an interesting quote from a guy on TV. I'm paraphrasing, but basically it's like this: If you use an online service for free, then you're not the customer. You're the product that they sell to the customer.

[1clue]

For that matter, they change their terms of use every so often and change which things they can share with you sell to others. (sorry, I lost track of my point evidently). Read 3 in a row some time, you pretty much have nothing left after that.

And another thing: It doesn't matter if you refrain from posting things about yourself. Your wife, your kids, your friends or some guy down the street will do it for you.

[64bitiso]

If you read their terms of use, they're not spying on you. You explicitly agree to let them use certain types of data, or you don't get to use the service.

There's an interesting quote from a guy on TV. I'm paraphrasing, but basically it's like this: If you use an online service for free, then you're not the customer. You're the product that they sell to the customer.


You only know what you know, and you don't know what you don't know, obviously. If someone is worthy of being trusted, they have earned it. You know VERY WELL what I mean - please - do not pretend not to know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. If you do not agree, fine with me though :)

[1clue]

Let me turn it back on you: Why would anyone give you free email? Why would anyone just go out and provide a search engine for you to use for free? Why would anyone just give you an account on a social networking site like Facebook.

I've read every terms-of-use/privacy policy that they showed me on Facebook. They're not all the same, and they all explicitly state what sort of data they can sell to people with money.

The only people who use Facebook and don't know they're having their data mined are the people who never read the privacy policy.

How big is Facebook? Think about the server hardware they have to have going, and the reliability they need. It's got to be up 24/7, it's storing pictures and video and top scores on your smart phone, for pretty much everyone who uses it. It scans all the photos for face recognition and automatically tags photos of you with your name. For how many millions of users? I don't know about you, but my wife puts a LOT of stuff on FB.

Not only that, but they can query the data, the police either have their own guys in there or they have Facebook employees do the query and provide the results. I can't tell you how many news reports I've seen where they mentioned facebook as a main source of data.

[64bitiso]

Let me turn it back on you: Why would anyone give you free email? Why would anyone just go out and provide a search engine for you to use for free? Why would anyone just give you an account on a social networking site like Facebook.

I've read every terms-of-use/privacy policy that they showed me on Facebook. They're not all the same, and they all explicitly state what sort of data they can sell to people with money.

The only people who use Facebook and don't know they're having their data mined are the people who never read the privacy policy.

How big is Facebook? Think about the server hardware they have to have going, and the reliability they need. It's got to be up 24/7, it's storing pictures and video and top scores on your smart phone, for pretty much everyone who uses it. It scans all the photos for face recognition and automatically tags photos of you with your name. For how many millions of users? I don't know about you, but my wife puts a LOT of stuff on FB.

Not only that, but they can query the data, the police either have their own guys in there or they have Facebook employees do the query and provide the results. I can't tell you how many news reports I've seen where they mentioned facebook as a main source of data.

I hope this doesn't appear rude to you, but let me spell out what should be obvious to all but the totally naive:

Companies LIE - it's the rule, sadly, not the exception. For every one thing they state in their "agreement", you can be sure there are 25 MORE, undisclosed, dubious, deceptive and/OR sinister practices. Are you going to tell me that such incredibly ridiculous profits are made off the back of a morally upstanding, transparent and fair ethos? LOL. Maybe it's time to awaken to what's happening in the world.

That's common sense and prudency; you're going to dance around it and pretend that it isn't true though, so good night for tonight; take care.


[EDIT]


PS: In case you're living in a parallel, totally honest universe, the Police, judges, and -well - ALL human beings lie too. Just factor that into the equation - temptation is temptation for ALL of us, and the corrupt care even less about giving in to it than most - moreso when LARGE LARGE amounts of money are the reward for lies.

[buzzingrobot]

Fair comment - you've missed the point though - not everyone KNOWS - they are naive - people are being exploited - dress it up however you like, it still happens.

What exactly is your point? Again, what freedom do you lose by using Facebook? Yes, you're annoyed because they record and exploit data. Are you arguing that we have an inherent freedom from being tracked on the net? if so, how do you propose the IP packets comprising this batch of data find their way to you?





"Do you feel exploited when you go to a grocery and find that the store is designed to make you walk by all kinds of tempting and expensive impulse buys before you get to the back of the store where the eggs and milk are located?"


Uhm... yes, but I am not an idiot - all the same, yes - of course. Don't you?


No. Why would I? It's a store. It sells stuff.

[Buntu Bunny]

I tried FB for awhile, but only to keep in touch with two folks. Several things bothered me, however. One was that FB didn't seem to respect my privacy settings. I'd turn everything off, but every time they updated their policies, everything would get turned back on again. The other thing that bothered me was that every time I left the site, I logged out. Yet numerous websites I visited would have me signed in, asking me if I wanted to comment or like. That was the end of Facebook for me.

[64bitiso]

I tried FB for awhile, but only to keep in touch with two folks. Several things bothered me, however. One was that FB didn't seem to respect my privacy settings. I'd turn everything off, but every time they updated their policies, everything would get turned back on again. The other thing that bothered me was that every time I left the site, I logged out. Yet numerous websites I visited would have me signed in, asking me if I wanted to comment or like. That was the end of Facebook for me.


Wow, I am truly pleased! Someone who isn't in denial! :D

Yes, folks - I am not saying facebook are the "big, evil, terrible monster" - but they ARE liars, they ARE manipulative, and they ARE NOT to be trusted. Corporations in this age, think nothing at all of bare faced lies for shares or profit margins. If you are still in denial of that, then I cannot help you - get yourself a copy of "Wireshark", and wake up to the world.

One single word sums up facebook: slippery.

[1clue]

I hope this doesn't appear rude to you, but let me spell out what should be obvious to all but the totally naive:

Companies LIE - it's the rule, sadly, not the exception. For every one thing they state in their "agreement", you can be sure there are 25 MORE, undisclosed, dubious, deceptive and/OR sinister practices. Are you going to tell me that such incredibly ridiculous profits are made off the back of a morally upstanding, transparent and fair ethos? LOL. Maybe it's time to awaken to what's happening in the world.

That's common sense and prudency; you're going to dance around it and pretend that it isn't true though, so good night for tonight; take care.


[EDIT]


PS: In case you're living in a parallel, totally honest universe, the Police, judges, and -well - ALL human beings lie too. Just factor that into the equation - temptation is temptation for ALL of us, and the corrupt care even less about giving in to it than most - moreso when LARGE LARGE amounts of money are the reward for lies.


Are we talking about the same topic? Of course FB takes your data. It says it right in your privacy policy. Read it once, you'll see what I'm talking about. If FB were lies about it that would mean they're NOT taking my data.

Furthermore, the only "side" of this I've posted on this thread is that, if you use an online service for free, then you are not the customer, you're the product. Meaning that the hosting company will be mining what you put on there for their own product. Again, it's probably written out in the license agreement for whatever service.

Google flat out says they've never deleted a single query anyone has ever made on google, and they correlate that data so that they can find you again. What more do you want? Are you telling me that they're lying when they're telling me that they harvest data?

[64bitiso]

Are we talking about the same topic? Of course FB takes your data. It says it right in your privacy policy. Read it once, you'll see what I'm talking about. If FB were lies about it that would mean they're NOT taking my data.

Furthermore, the only "side" of this I've posted on this thread is that, if you use an online service for free, then you are not the customer, you're the product. Meaning that the hosting company will be mining what you put on there for their own product. Again, it's probably written out in the license agreement for whatever service.

Google flat out says they've never deleted a single query anyone has ever made on google, and they correlate that data so that they can find you again. What more do you want? Are you telling me that they're lying when they're telling me that they harvest data?

You're off at a different tangent entirely. Let's just forget it - I have to work, and this is getting unproductive and pointless now. I asked admin to close this thread ages ago - I hope it just disappears, haha.

Take care - I hope I didn't offend you, and I am sorry if I did :)

God bless.

[1clue]

Wow, I am truly pleased! Someone who isn't in denial! :D

Yes, folks - I am not saying facebook are the "big, evil, terrible monster" - but they ARE liars, they ARE manipulative, and they ARE NOT to be trusted. Corporations in this age, think nothing at all of bare faced lies for shares or profit margins. If you are still in denial of that, then I cannot help you - get yourself a copy of "Wireshark", and wake up to the world.

One single word sums up facebook: slippery.

How are they liars? They tell you flat out that they sell your data. Are you saying they don't sell your data?

Good grief! Wireshark monitors traffic on your local network, as it can be seen from your computer. Why would they send data through there in order to share it? You've posted it on Facebook, why not get it from there?

You don't make any sense.

[64bitiso]

How are they liars? They tell you flat out that they sell your data. Are you saying they don't sell your data?

Good grief! Wireshark monitors traffic on your local network, as it can be seen from your computer. Why would they send data through there in order to share it? You've posted it on Facebook, why not get it from there?

You don't make any sense.


Please see my previous post. Thread abandoned as a wasteful idea.

[edit]: Extra wasteful due to the sheer amount of naive denial, or possible blindness to what happens on "Da Cloud". Regardless, a thread lock has been requested, so I don't drain anyone else's time... or mine! :p

thanks :)

[manoriax]

Well, I admit that I use Facebook, even though I only use some of the functions they offer (SocialFixer ftw). The main reason I use Facebook is to easily stay in contact with people who live abroad and I cannot meet "every day". Of course, I have some of the people from university, my friends and family added there, but I never read any status updates and my Facebook news stream doesn't show me any of it. Why? Because I hate it when I go to some place (be it a party or just a random meeting) and I find out there is no topic to have a decent conversation about, because all the "news" has already been published on Facebook, so nobody can tell anybody anything new. I see that with other people and I refuse to become that way. Hehe. Also, I never post anything I do on Facebook. I do like to comment on websites or blog posts I find on the internet, but that's it. Nothing more.

I would, however, say that Facebook does not "spy" on people. The people who work there do not have to - most people willingly fill the databases with their personal information so they do not have to spy, at all. All the information is being given away with pleasure by the users themselves. I think that, in the end, it comes down to how the people use the service that is being offered by Facebook. It comes incredibly handy to, like I do, stay in contact with people you cannot meet every other day or to discuss questions with your colleagues and fellow students. Of course, there will always be those people who publish everything about their lives on a social media platform, but that's their own business and makes them, in my opinion, less interesting to have a conversation with.

Another problem is that you can control what you post about yourself but you cannot control what others post about you. The best precautions and browser addons in the world will not help if other people fill the place with my stuff, so the only way to prevent that is to make clear that you don't want anyone to post anything related to you on the platform.

[64bitiso]

Well, I admit that I use Facebook, even though I only use some of the functions they offer (SocialFixer ftw). The main reason I use Facebook is to easily stay in contact with people who live abroad and I cannot meet "every day". Of course, I have some of the people from university, my friends and family added there, but I never read any status updates and my Facebook news stream doesn't show me any of it. Why? Because I hate it when I go to some place (be it a party or just a random meeting) and I find out there is no topic to have a decent conversation about, because all the "news" has already been published on Facebook, so nobody can tell anybody anything new. I see that with other people and I refuse to become that way. Hehe. Also, I never post anything I do on Facebook. I do like to comment on websites or blog posts I find on the internet, but that's it. Nothing more.

I would, however, say that Facebook does not "spy" on people. The people who work there do not have to - most people willingly fill the databases with their personal information so they do not have to spy, at all. All the information is being given away with pleasure by the users themselves. I think that, in the end, it comes down to how the people use the service that is being offered by Facebook. It comes incredibly handy to, like I do, stay in contact with people you cannot meet every other day or to discuss questions with your colleagues and fellow students. Of course, there will always be those people who publish everything about their lives on a social media platform, but that's their own business and makes them, in my opinion, less interesting to have a conversation with.

Another problem is that you can control what you post about yourself but you cannot control what others post about you. The best precautions and browser addons in the world will not help if other people fill the place with my stuff, so the only way to prevent that is to make clear that you don't want anyone to post anything related to you on the platform.[/B]


"Facebook: the ANTI-social network"

You'd lose track if I told you how many times my Mum had said what you just said:

"I hate it when I go to some place (be it a party or just a random meeting) and I find out there is no topic to have a decent conversation about, because all the "news" has already been published on Facebook, so nobody can tell anybody anything new."

Facebook: Ruining human interaction, worldwide!

[1clue]

You'd lose track if I told you how many times my Mum had said what you just said:

"I hate it when I go to some place (be it a party or just a random meeting) and I find out there is no topic to have a decent conversation about, because all the "news" has already been published on Facebook, so nobody can tell anybody anything new."

Facebook: Ruining human interaction, worldwide!

We finally agree on something completely.

Seriously, we're both talking about the same act: Facebook sells the data you put on Facebook. They share it in ways you didn't anticipate and possibly did not want. The only point of disagreement is whether they have to lie when they do it.

I say no, because I've read terms of use and privacy policy every time it's changed, and they flat out say they're taking your data. And it doesn't have to be YOU putting the data in: Other people you know post stuff about you and are careless about the viewable scope, so you don't even need an account and they have your data. People comment on your post and the entire post is visible to whoever they allowed, which is not what you anticipated. Strangers get pictures of you and they wind up on Facebook, and you don't even know it. Those photos have the Facebook face recognition software go off on it, so they know who is in the picture even if the guy who took the picture never met you.

All of that puts bits of data about you into the "public" category, and from there Facebook can "share" to their heart's content. Without lying about it. Facebook doesn't NEED to lie. Human carelessness and human interaction in the real world gives them everything they could want.

[64bitiso]

We finally agree on something completely.

Seriously, we're both talking about the same act: Facebook sells the data you put on Facebook. They share it in ways you didn't anticipate and possibly did not want. The only point of disagreement is whether they have to lie when they do it.

I say no, because I've read terms of use and privacy policy every time it's changed, and they flat out say they're taking your data. And it doesn't have to be YOU putting the data in: Other people you know post stuff about you and are careless about the viewable scope, so you don't even need an account and they have your data. People comment on your post and the entire post is visible to whoever they allowed, which is not what you anticipated. Strangers get pictures of you and they wind up on Facebook, and you don't even know it. Those photos have the Facebook face recognition software go off on it, so they know who is in the picture even if the guy who took the picture never met you.

All of that puts bits of data about you into the "public" category, and from there Facebook can "share" to their heart's content. Without lying about it. Facebook doesn't NEED to lie. Human carelessness and human interaction in the real world gives them everything they could want.

Okay.

Again:

Please see my previous post. Thread abandoned as a wasteful idea.

[King Dude]

I really don't want to know. I've sent some messages I'm not entirely proud of. :/

[CharlesA]

Closed by request.