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RichardET
August 14th, 2013, 12:10 PM
Why do new Dell's which come pre-loaded with Ubuntu cost MORE than similarly configured machines from Dell pre-loaded with Microsoft instead?

I cannot think of any valid reason for this other than some sort of Dell-MS chicanery.

Boab1993
August 14th, 2013, 12:12 PM
Big Buisness.

If you have no idea that this is a free software, you'd think it must be better or superior in someway or at very least different, thus more likely to pay money for it blindly.

Its just a scam/loophole to rake in the cash.

howefield
August 14th, 2013, 12:17 PM
Its just a scam/loophole to rake in the cash.

Would you care to expand on what the "scam" is ?

RichardET
August 14th, 2013, 12:33 PM
It is interesting to me because I was just scanning, perusing the Dell site this past week for their Ubuntu lineup, which they try to hide actually; it can be found under 'small business" only and you must specifically filter on something like "DOS Ubuntu" OS or something, otherwise, only Windows based equipment comes up. The two for sale which I saw listed for > $1600, and I was amazed because the hardware is not special. A new Inspiron with windows is less than half that price.
Lenovo W530's are also significantly less; they are under $1300 for base models, year round.

Is Ubuntu compatible hardware more money due to lower volumes?

System76 equipment is also much more expensive than Lenovo equipment.

This price tag difference must have an effect on Ubuntu marketshare, because if you want native Ubuntu equipment, you generally pay top dollar for it.

The reason why I find this topic interesting is that when comparing different makers, such as Sytem76 vs. Lenovo, there could be valid reasons why lenovo's are cheaper beyond some secret MS contract to manipulate pricing,
but when this problem exists inside one manufacturer, then it looks very strange to me. All things being equal, Ubuntu equipment should cost less, unless I am completely missing something.

mastablasta
August 14th, 2013, 01:27 PM
it's not just about the guts. it's also about the make - the screen, the frame (aluminium or plastic), the battery, the hinges...

here Linux preloaded laptops (or those without OS) are about 80-100 EUR cheaper than those that come windows preinstalled. same specs.

Boab1993
August 14th, 2013, 01:39 PM
Would you care to expand on what the "scam" is ?

Note 'scam/loophole'. That would be charging the same price for the equivilant windows laptop when it is only equipped with a free OS.

Your not paying for a licence, the price is the same. The money isnt going in anyone else's pocket.

howefield
August 14th, 2013, 01:48 PM
Note 'scam/loophole'. That would be charging the same price for the equivilant windows laptop when it is only equipped with a free OS.

Your not paying for a licence, the price is the same. The money isnt going in anyone else's pocket.

That's ok, I didn't think you knew what you were talking about. Confirmed.

Boab1993
August 14th, 2013, 02:05 PM
That's ok, I didn't think you knew what you were talking about. Confirmed.

Okay try these Acer products for example :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ubuntu-E12-03-i3-3110M-Processor-Graphics/dp/B009U12FC6/ref=pd_sim_sbs_computers_5

http://www.tesco.com/direct/acer-aspire-e1-571-33118g75mnks-156-inch-notebook-pc-core-i3-3110m-24ghz-8gb-750gb-dvd-writer-wlan-webcam-windows-8-64-bit-intel-gma-hd/739-9940.prd?pageLevel=&skuId=739-9940&kpid=739-9940&gclid=CKyG6uf9_LgCFXMdtAodsgEAMw

Fair enough not dell.

Given that lenovo, and system 76(of which im not trying to bad mouth) have already been brought up i thought it could be relevant information?

I thought this was a discussion, if im wrong correct me don't decide your better therefore be quiet, especially in such a place as the cafe.

RichardET
August 14th, 2013, 02:19 PM
This pricing irregularity became obvious to me back in the past Autumn, when i was considering buying a pre-loaded Ubuntu laptop. All of them were simply too expensive compared to similarly priced MS loaded machines. I want to support companies like System76, but I am not going to pay
more for what appears on the surface to be less. All I can figure is they cannot compete on volume.

montag dp
August 14th, 2013, 02:26 PM
I believe I've heard that Microsoft subsidizes the cost of their operating systems for retailers on machines with Windows pre-loaded. That's why you pay more for a machine with the same specs when a free operating system is installed. It's a win-win-lose situation, where the loser is the person who doesn't want Windows on their machine. But honestly, the majority of people like that will just buy a Mac.

Anyway, this is a benefit to the vast majority of consumers, so let's not blame "big business."

Boab1993
August 14th, 2013, 02:34 PM
I believe I've heard that Microsoft subsidizes the cost of their operating systems for retailers on machines with Windows pre-loaded. That's why you pay more for a machine with the same specs when a free operating system is installed. It's a win-win-lose situation, where the loser is the person who doesn't want Windows on their machine. But honestly, the majority of people like that will just buy a Mac.

Anyway, this is a benefit to the vast majority of consumers, so let's not blame "big business."

See now thats a perfectly rational reply, and ive learnt something from a person more educated on the subject.

Thank you.

RichardET
August 14th, 2013, 02:36 PM
I get that MS subsidizes the cost of "Windows", but the hardware as well?

howefield
August 14th, 2013, 02:43 PM
I get that MS subsidizes the cost of "Windows", but the hardware as well?

There is more than Microsoft in the equation, a whole load of the third party software will be paying to get pre-loaded on to machines, eg 90 day anti virus "trials" all of which ease the pressure on thin margins.

John_McCourt
August 14th, 2013, 04:34 PM
Spot on about the other pre-loaded applications. All those windows applications developers (Norton etc.) are willing to pay the hardware guys good money to get their bloatware installed by default. This allows the hardware manufacturers like Dell and HP to sell the Windows machines cheaper.

When Linux applications developers start paying to get their software pre-installed on computers, maybe the price of Linux computers will come down. But I doubt the Linux app developers are as willing to part with their money.

deadflowr
August 14th, 2013, 04:49 PM
There is more than Microsoft in the equation, a whole load of the third party software will be paying to get pre-loaded on to machines, eg 90 day anti virus "trials" all of which ease the pressure on thin margins.

That, plus if you look at the version of Windows you typically get, you'll find it to be a very barebones version.

tgalati4
August 14th, 2013, 05:19 PM
I would hope that the Ubuntu-preloaded machines have higher quality internals than a similar-spec Windows machine. But until someone buys both and does a complete teardown, we won't really know why there is a price difference. I have yet to see an article that shows how much MS pays to PC makers or how much subsidy crapware providers influence the final price. It's a good theory, but I have yet to see the proof.

I think the cost increase represents the cost of pulling a machine off of the assembly line, scraping the Windows sticker off of the bottom and loading Ubuntu via USB--something that takes 20 minutes for each machine. Then packaging the machine in a separate box and storing it in a separate area. To me, that is the real cost.

Gilad_Pellaeon
August 14th, 2013, 05:51 PM
That, plus if you look at the version of Windows you typically get, you'll find it to be a very barebones version.

Ah yes Microsoft's so called "Starter" editions which are such a joke and even more crippled then the "Home" editions especially when it comes to PAE support. Take a look at this entry on Wikipedia and notice how microsoft even cripples the cheapest versions of windows to use less RAM until you pay more money to upgrade? Sheesh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension#Microsoft_Windows

And then people wonder why programs like PC Decrapifier exist for people who have to use new Windows machines to try and remove most of the bloatware. http://pcdecrapifier.com/

It's why i'm liking Lubuntu a lot since I switched a few days ago there's a lot less services running and less RAM usage.

rrnbtter
August 15th, 2013, 01:40 PM
Greetings,

It's a win-win-lose situation, where the loser is the person who doesn't want Windows on their machine."

Your post gets to the point and does it well. However it is still a matter of perspective as to whether the Linux User Loses. Also note that I'm just speaking for myself here.
1. I'm not losing with the Windows and bloatware preinstalled. Windows users are subsidising my computer , keeping the price low via "their volume".
2. I get a free Windows license. I am a full time Linux user but I do have Windows on my alternate HD to update my TomTom and do my taxes once a year. Since my computer has a Windows license, I'm not cheating anyone.
3. This woudn't help the new inexperienced user but many of us scrap our OS regularly anyway. Hence a clean install on a new computer is no big thing.
4. Oh yes! Plus I don't have to complain about paying for a OS that I may not need nor brow beat some retailer into giving me a refund on the OS, since realistically MS is entitled to get paid for negotiating such a great price from which I benefit.
5. Every Linux Installed Machine that I have investigated was only certified for the "installed version". Since Linux users have typically installed on anything with an on switch, I don't get the point of what is there at point of sale.

These reasons don't help the new user that just wants a low price but it does help myself in that I can convert the low priced Windows machine to my own liking. As someone else said "Its a matter of where you are sitting."

montag dp
August 15th, 2013, 02:58 PM
Greetings,


Your post gets to the point and does it well. However it is still a matter of perspective as to whether the Linux User Loses. Also note that I'm just speaking for myself here.
1. I'm not losing with the Windows and bloatware preinstalled. Windows users are subsidising my computer , keeping the price low via "their volume".
2. I get a free Windows license. I am a full time Linux user but I do have Windows on my alternate HD to update my TomTom and do my taxes once a year. Since my computer has a Windows license, I'm not cheating anyone.
3. This woudn't help the new inexperienced user but many of us scrap our OS regularly anyway. Hence a clean install on a new computer is no big thing.

These reasons don't help the new user that just wants a low price but it does help myself in that I can convert the low priced Windows machine to my own liking. As someone else said "Its a matter of where you are sitting."That's a good point. I don't mind paying a lower price to have Windows preinstalled either. I guess the loser is the person who doesn't want Windows installed and was hoping to save money that way (like the OP).

ssam
August 15th, 2013, 03:59 PM
It costs some money to install ubuntu. They need to employ people to test compatibility, make customisations and validate install images. They need to add more options to their website and supply chains. They may need to train additional customer service people. If the linux sales are low volume then this will cost is spread over just a few sales.

I just checked the XPS13, and the uk price and specs seem to be identical between windows and linux version (once you take VAT into account).

RichardET
August 15th, 2013, 08:11 PM
The price went down $50 since I first posted on this from 1599 to 1549; Dell does this frequently, without warning.
Current config with Ubuntu for 1549 minus shipping, taxes, handling is as I stated $1549


Processor
3rd Generation Intel® Core™ i7-3537U processor (4M Cache, 2.0 GHz CPU w/ Max Turbo of 3.1 Ghz)


Operating System
UBUNTU Linux 12.04 LTS


Display
13.3" FHD 1080p


Memory2 (http://www.dell.com/mc.ashx?id=technotes:graphic%20card&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&modalwidth=400&modalHeight=150&ovropac=0&modalscroll=yes&modaltarget=div&modaltype=tooltip&position=bottom&title=Important%20Details&flip=false&eventType=rollover)
8GB3 (http://www.dell.com/mc.ashx?id=technotes:graphics-and-system-memory&c=us&l=en&s=bsd&modalwidth=400&modalHeight=150&ovropac=0&modalscroll=yes&modaltarget=div&modaltype=tooltip&position=bottom&title=Important%20Details&flip=false&eventType=rollover) DDR3 SDRAM at 1600MHz


Hard Drive
256GB Solid State Drive


Video Card
Intel HD 4000


Warranty
1 Year ProSupport Service with 1 Year NBD Onsite Service after Remote Diagnosis


System Weight
2.99 lbs


The Windows version appears to be the same for $1599, so perhaps in this case, they do cut the price,
but you can buy an XPS 14 inch with Windows & a 500 gig 7200rpm drive for 1200, but you don't get the SSD drive.
Inspirons are dirt cheap though, but they only come booked with MS loaded. You get an i5, but a 1 TB drive, for $800.

mastablasta
August 16th, 2013, 10:26 AM
Ah yes Microsoft's so called "Starter" editions which are such a joke and even more crippled then the "Home" editions especially when it comes to PAE support. Take a look at this entry on Wikipedia and notice how microsoft even cripples the cheapest versions of windows to use less RAM until you pay more money to upgrade? Sheesh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension#Microsoft_Windows

And then people wonder why programs like PC Decrapifier exist for people who have to use new Windows machines to try and remove most of the bloatware. http://pcdecrapifier.com/

It's why i'm liking Lubuntu a lot since I switched a few days ago there's a lot less services running and less RAM usage.

Starter editions are partially limited for a reason. Intel Atoms didn't support more than 2GB ram. and possibly have (or had) a few other limitations. however starter is still a bad joke. 32bit, crippled networking, crippled file sharing, unchangeable wallpaper (WTF?!)...

it is riiculous when they stuck starter on 64bit CPU netbook that can have up to 8GB ram. the thing is i can "easilly" upgrade to home, but even then it can be only 32bit. to "upgrade" to 64bit would need to reformat the drive. if you ask me they should have given 64bit Home preinstalled. anyway it will get Kubuntu 64 bit soon to help it a bit and to unleash the full power. :-)

as for the aditional warez i had a pleasant experience here. the stuff that came on netbook was actually not bloat. but a few useful tools (for example to troubel shoto computer, diagnostic tools, tool that handle all drivers updates including BIOS update) and some nice drivers that keep the thin box cool. all in all not much extra stuff and most of it is not really bloat. so other than having 32 bit starter instead of 64bit home i was quite happy.

mikewhatever
August 16th, 2013, 11:39 AM
Why do new Dell's which come pre-loaded with Ubuntu cost MORE than similarly configured machines from Dell pre-loaded with Microsoft instead?

I cannot think of any valid reason for this other than some sort of Dell-MS chicanery.

You could have used google (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dell+ubuntu+expensive) to find many more similar discussions, and possibly reasons.
The issue has been ongoing from 2007, when Dell first ventured into a partnership with Ubuntu.
To be fair, Dell PCs with Ubuntu are, sometimes cheaper, but that rarely causes any drama.

tgalati4
August 16th, 2013, 05:57 PM
Dell has a refined pricing strategy. RAM, hard disks, and any other commodity items get repriced frequently (perhaps daily) which will affect the overall price. So when Ubuntu-loaded machines are way overpriced compared with Windows counterparts, it gets attention and the price mysteriously comes down.

RichardET
August 16th, 2013, 09:06 PM
You could have used google (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dell+ubuntu+expensive) to find many more similar discussions, and possibly reasons.
The issue has been ongoing from 2007, when Dell first ventured into a partnership with Ubuntu.
To be fair, Dell PCs with Ubuntu are, sometimes cheaper, but that rarely causes any drama.

I may be new to Ubuntu, but not new in general and i am well aware that these controversies linger on, but normally I can find an obvious explanation, like volume pricing or VAT or conversion from a euro to a dollar, but with Dell, the price differential is harder to deconstruct. Without a doubt, System76 is more expensive than a Lenovo, but most people would agree Thinkpads are well made, so I do not think it implies System76 are of better quality. It's probably volume pricing.

The most annoying aspect of Dell pricing from my perspective is the "Home" vs. "Office" differences. Linux equipment is only sold by Dell currently through the "Office" side. Why? And if it is on the "Home" side, then usually it is with poorer performing chips such as commodity AMD processors or Celerons. You will never see Dell marketing a high end home box without Windows on it. I guess computers are like flashlights, which are basically "free", and it's the batteries which are of the greatest value.

tripp98
August 21st, 2013, 02:14 AM
Just to throw in an alternative that is due out soon

www.solaptop.com

Petro Dawg
August 21st, 2013, 02:33 AM
Just to throw in an alternative that is due out soon

www.solaptop.com (http://www.solaptop.com)

Not to get too far off topic, but doesn't that seem like a really bad idea? I have yet to own a computer with a screen that is easily read in direct sunlight.

Perhaps anti-glare screen technology has come a long way since my last laptop.

For computing in remote locations, automobile DC adapters are the way to go.

greatsirkain
August 27th, 2013, 02:16 AM
I don't understand why people fork out, way over the odds, cash when they could build it themselves for a fraction of the cost.
I've never paid more than £20 for a computer & they've always done everything I needed.
But yes I have paid £300 for a games console but even that's cheaper than a good pc & will have longer compatability with the latest games. Going with Sony this time.
Going with gaming, even if Steam gets its finger out and provides a decent range of titles you'll need a phat computer if you're using the latest Ubuntu - Because it is fat.
Sooooo games console for games & a PC that costs nothing to build & I'm covered.

Kevin_Arnold
August 27th, 2013, 02:50 AM
I don't understand why people fork out, way over the odds, cash when they could build it themselves for a fraction of the cost.


Kind of difficult to build a nice laptop by yourself...

codingman
August 28th, 2013, 12:56 AM
I haven't seen a barebones laptop since 2008. Anyone know if there are any more around?

SeijiSensei
August 28th, 2013, 02:58 AM
The two major factors that make Linux less price competitive than you might think have already been mentioned, but I'll reiterate them one more time. First is the array of pre-installed software on Windows machines. By some estimates that can amount to a subsidy of $50-75, a substantial sum when margins are so slim.

Second is the cost that nearly everyone forgets about, the cost of customer service. One reason why "home" users are not encouraged to buy Linux computers is the very high cost of training people to troubleshoot Linux issues. It's possible to cover those costs on more expensive business-oriented machines, but not on a laptop costing <$500 and sold to naive users. Lots of people will call in wondering what happened to Internet Explorer or asking how to install Microsoft Office. Fielding calls like these is expensive, and having to give the answer that IE or Office do not run on Linux won't get many kudos from customers. Dell has had to refund customers who bought Linux laptops because they didn't know the machines came without Windows and won't (easily) run the software sitting on the CDs on their desks.

Microsoft does not directly subsidize OEMs selling Windows machines, but the cost of a copy of Windows to large OEMs is pretty low, like $25-50 per copy.