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View Full Version : Trick from "Enemy of the State" actually works.



TNFrank
July 11th, 2013, 06:07 AM
Not sure how many have saw the movie but at one point Gene Hackman puts Wil Smith's cell phone in a potato chip bag, the kind that are foil lined, to stop the signal from getting out to the NSA guys that were tracking them. Well, I had a chip bag from dinner tonight(Subway sandwich and a bag of chips) and thought I'd try it just for grins. I put my cell phone in a small paper bag to keep the chip oil from getting all over it then put it into the chip bag and rolled up the bag. Then I ask my wife to call my phone and guess what, no signal got through. She could hear my phone ring in her phone but my phone in the chip bag never rang which means the signal was block. Then, just to make sure it wasn't a fluke we put her phone into the bag and I called it and same result, her phone didn't get signal and didn't ring. Totally awesome, and I guess you could use it as a storage bag against EMP too. Anyway, just had to pass that along to ya'll.

sffvba[e0rt
July 11th, 2013, 03:20 PM
Strange that you didn't get a busy signal or a message that the other phone was switched off if it was completely of the grid...?


404

whatthefunk
July 11th, 2013, 03:27 PM
Is this really that surprising? Foil reflects all sorts of things. This is why space blankets are made of foil and why people who are scared of alien and government mind intrusion wear tin foil hats. Its also why the chip bag is made of foil...

Paqman
July 11th, 2013, 04:06 PM
So, basically what you're saying is you used a chip bag to do the same thing as "airplane mode". Or the off button. You don't really need to improvise a Faraday cage if you can just turn the transceiver off.

However, always fun to find some movie nonsense that's actually got a grain of truth to it. Doing this kind of stuff has built a career for the Mythbusters.

Erik1984
July 11th, 2013, 04:15 PM
I thought you were referring to the part were they call the local police to report the NSA surveillance van.

tgalati4
July 11th, 2013, 05:26 PM
The potato chip bag simply clues the NSA into what your eating habits are. They probably already know that. Since the bag was oily, (regular chips and not baked), your health care premiums will mysteriously go up.

TNFrank
July 11th, 2013, 05:54 PM
I actually think it does more then just put the phone into "airplane mode". Besides, just turning off the phone isn't any help for being tracked by GPS, as long as the phone still has the battery in it there's power going to parts of it like the GPS unit so you can still be tracked. I'd like to see more tests done to see if it actually is being blocked entirely from the outside world or if it is just "airplane mode" as you suggest. Either way I thought it was kind of cool.

forrestcupp
July 11th, 2013, 10:21 PM
Interesting. Enemy of the State is an awesome movie. I have the DVD.

Paqman
July 11th, 2013, 10:33 PM
I actually think it does more then just put the phone into "airplane mode".


Airplane mode stops the handset from transmitting altogether. It's intended to prevent a handset from interfering with aircraft systems.


Besides, just turning off the phone isn't any help for being tracked by GPS, as long as the phone still has the battery in it there's power going to parts of it like the GPS unit so you can still be tracked.

You can't be "tracked" by GPS. It's a passive system. To get a fix your phone just receives data that the GPS satellites broadcast, it doesn't need to transmit anything back to do that. Remember GPS is a military system, it would be sod all use to them if it gave away your position and got you mortared every time you used it.

What could get you tracked on a cellular phone is the fact that it always registers with the nearest cell in the network. So your phone company has records that can show roughly where you've been. That's only true if the phone is switched on and isn't in airplane mode (or inside a crisp packet, as you've proven ;) )

TNFrank
July 11th, 2013, 10:53 PM
Airplane mode stops the handset from transmitting altogether. It's intended to prevent a handset from interfering with aircraft systems.


Which is actually a bunch of bunk because all the systems on an airplane are shielded from stuff like that. They just want you to use their seat back phones so they can charge you the Big Bucks to make a call.
If cell phones or any other device that could transmit or receive were a problem then I'm sure a terrorist would just place a call to mess up the planes systems and bring it down but you just don't see that taking place, now do ya'. ;)
Even more to the point if it could happen I'm sure they'd ban phones from flights, heck, I can't even take my multi-tool on the plane because it has a serrated blade(that would be useful in cutting the seat belts in the event of a crash like just took place in Calif.) so I'm sure phones would also be banned.

t0p
July 12th, 2013, 12:17 PM
Cellphones can be located (via cell towers), and the microphone used as a bug, even if the phone is switched off. You have to remove the battery to stop that.

This isn't paranoid nonsense, it is fact. If I can be bothered, I'll return with a link. Google Is My Friend. Your friend too (https://ihatehate.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/how-to-search-the-internet-3-how-to-actually-use-a-search-engine/).

EDIT: Looky here (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2006/12/can_you_hear_me/).



Cell phone users, beware. The FBI can listen to everything you say, even when the cell phone is turned off. A recent court ruling in a case against the Genovese crime family revealed that the FBI has the ability from a remote location to activate a cell phone and turn its microphone into a listening device that transmits to an FBI listening post, a method known as a "roving bug." Experts say the only way to defeat it is to remove the cell phone battery. "The FBI can access cell phones and modify them remotely without ever having to physically handle them," James Atkinson, a counterintelligence security consultant, told ABC News. "Any recently manufactured cell phone has a built-in tracking device, which can allow eavesdroppers to pinpoint someone’s location to within just a few feet," he added.

Paqman
July 12th, 2013, 02:16 PM
Cellphones can be located (via cell towers), and the microphone used as a bug, even if the phone is switched off. You have to remove the battery to stop that.

This isn't paranoid nonsense, it is fact.


Cell phone users, beware. The FBI can listen to everything you say, even when the cell phone is turned off. A recent court ruling in a case against the Genovese crime family revealed that the FBI has the ability from a remote location to activate a cell phone and turn its microphone into a listening device that transmits to an FBI listening post, a method known as a "roving bug." Experts say the only way to defeat it is to remove the cell phone battery. "The FBI can access cell phones and modify them remotely without ever having to physically handle them," James Atkinson, a counterintelligence security consultant, told ABC News. "Any recently manufactured cell phone has a built-in tracking device, which can allow eavesdroppers to pinpoint someone’s location to within just a few feet," he added.

It's good the be skeptical of grandiose claims about tech reported in the mainstream press, especially when the claims are quite vague (as they invariably are). What it seems to be referring to is an attacker pushing an OTA update to a phone to run their own code (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/03/07/baseband_processor_mobile_hack_threat/). While technically feasible it's not correct to say that they can simply flick a switch and do this on anybody's phone. They'd need to have pushed the malware out to the phone through the carrier. This kind of intrusive investigation definitely does fall under the wiretapping laws. It's a targeted (and quite clever) intelligence gathering method, not an opportunity for mass surveillance.

Probably worth bearing in mind if you're the type of person who's placing a lot of calls about that big shipment of Colombian marching powder you've got due into the country, but not if you're just calling the missus to explain why you're still down the pub.

ana551
July 14th, 2013, 10:39 AM
wow...amazing...I will definitely try it myself :P

forrestcupp
July 14th, 2013, 06:48 PM
Airplane mode stops the handset from transmitting altogether. It's intended to prevent a handset from interfering with aircraft systems.



You can't be "tracked" by GPS. It's a passive system. To get a fix your phone just receives data that the GPS satellites broadcast, it doesn't need to transmit anything back to do that. Remember GPS is a military system, it would be sod all use to them if it gave away your position and got you mortared every time you used it.

What could get you tracked on a cellular phone is the fact that it always registers with the nearest cell in the network. So your phone company has records that can show roughly where you've been. That's only true if the phone is switched on and isn't in airplane mode (or inside a crisp packet, as you've proven ;) )

Which is why they really need 3 towers to triangulate an accurate position. But you're not totally right about the GPS thing. One thing you're forgetting is that a lot of phones are smart phones that are running apps in the background that use your GPS data to send your location information back to them for different reasons. You'd have to turn off your data and wifi, and/or make sure all apps are set to not use GPS tracking to be completely safe from that.

Paqman
July 14th, 2013, 07:10 PM
But you're not totally right about the GPS thing. One thing you're forgetting is that a lot of phones are smart phones that are running apps in the background that use your GPS

No, I'm not forgetting that. Just look at things like Latitude and Foursquare. These are actively broadcasting your location, of course. However, what the OP said was:


just turning off the phone isn't any help for being tracked by GPS, as long as the phone still has the battery in it there's power going to parts of it like the GPS unit so you can still be tracked

Which implied that he thought the GPS chip merely being powered (even though the CPU and the radio weren't) was enough to broadcast the phone's location. Which is obviously not the case.

slw210
August 21st, 2013, 04:50 PM
Good info on the chip bag Frank, great movie as well.



Airplane mode stops the handset from transmitting altogether. It's intended to prevent a handset from interfering with aircraft systems.



You can't be "tracked" by GPS. It's a passive system. To get a fix your phone just receives data that the GPS satellites broadcast, it doesn't need to transmit anything back to do that. Remember GPS is a military system, it would be sod all use to them if it gave away your position and got you mortared every time you used it.

What could get you tracked on a cellular phone is the fact that it always registers with the nearest cell in the network. So your phone company has records that can show roughly where you've been. That's only true if the phone is switched on and isn't in airplane mode (or inside a crisp packet, as you've proven ;) )

You need to do more research on Smartphone GPS.

From WIKIPEDIA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking)


Handset-based

Handset-based technology requires the installation of client software on the handset to determine its location. This technique determines the location of the handset by computing its location by cell identification, signal strengths of the home and neighboring cells, which is continuously sent to the carrier. In addition, if the handset is also equipped with GPS then significantly more precise location information is then sent from the handset to the carrier.
The key disadvantage of this technique (from mobile operator's point of view) is the necessity of installing software on the handset. It requires the active cooperation of the mobile subscriber as well as software that must be able to handle the different operating systems of the handsets. Typically, smartphones, such as one based on Symbian, Windows Mobile, Windows Phone, BlackBerry OS, iOS, or Android, would be able to run such software.
One proposed work-around is the installation of embedded hardware or software on the handset by the manufacturers, e.g. E-OTD. This avenue has not made significant headway, due to the difficulty of convincing different manufacturers to cooperate on a common mechanism and to address the cost issue. Another difficulty would be to address the issue of foreign handsets that are roaming in the network.


As for AIRPLANE MODE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane_mode)


FM Receiver, Bluetooth, wireless LAN antenna and GPS should still be operative if the phone is so equipped. Many models disable GPS and some of the other features, but this is inconsistent among manufacturers, since these latter functions are permitted on some aircraft and not others. Nevertheless, certain airlines specifically prohibit even the use of devices with a 'Flight mode' at all times.

Paqman
August 22nd, 2013, 09:54 AM
You need to do more research on Smartphone GPS.

From WIKIPEDIA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking)


If you actually read the article you quoted it states that GPS-based location tracking (while entirely possible) isn't used by default. AFAIK for GSM your carrier tracks you by what cell you're registered in, not your GPS. Giving up GPS data on a per-service basis is voluntary.


As for AIRPLANE MODE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airplane_mode)

No one's going to be tracking you via Bluetooth or Wi-Fi. To track you with that they'd have to be in visual range anyway.

King Dude
August 22nd, 2013, 11:11 AM
I'm not surprised. Radio waves are electromagnetic, meaning it's basically like electricity (which is why crystal radios do not require batteries) and can bounce off of metallic surfaces. That's why Wi-Fi in a trailer doesn't quite work.

ukripper
August 22nd, 2013, 05:12 PM
If you on T-mobile you lose the signal anyway soon you out of the london. Saves you that trick....

slw210
August 22nd, 2013, 05:45 PM
If you actually read the article you quoted it states that GPS-based location tracking (while entirely possible) isn't used by default. AFAIK for GSM your carrier tracks you by what cell you're registered in, not your GPS. Giving up GPS data on a per-service basis is voluntary.



No one's going to be tracking you via Bluetooth or Wi-Fi. To track you with that they'd have to be in visual range anyway.

I read the article (as well as others on the subject), BUT, in reference to what YOU STATED, YOU WERE WRONG.


You can't be "tracked" by GPS. It's a passive system. To get a fix your phone just receives data that the GPS satellites broadcast, it doesn't need to transmit anything back to do that. Remember GPS is a military system, it would be sod all use to them if it gave away your position and got you mortared every time you used it.

What could get you tracked on a cellular phone is the fact that it always registers with the nearest cell in the network. So your phone company has records that can show roughly where you've been. That's only true if the phone is switched on and isn't in airplane mode (or inside a crisp packet, as you've proven :wink: )

codingman
August 23rd, 2013, 12:19 AM
Calm down people. He only proved that what they did in the movie wasn't a fake.

squakie
August 23rd, 2013, 05:18 AM
Strange that you didn't get a busy signal or a message that the other phone was switched off if it was completely of the grid...?404Never checked with my cell phone, but I know my GPS in the car says I'm off the grid quite oftern! ;;) ;)

Paqman
August 23rd, 2013, 10:57 AM
I read the article (as well as others on the subject), BUT, in reference to what YOU STATED, YOU WERE WRONG.

Sure, maybe I should have qualified that with "You can't be tracked by GPS unless the GPS passes location data to another service which is communicating. That was, however, somewhat obvious I would have thought. GPS itself is a passive system, which the OP didn't seem to realise, hence my post.

Happy?

bapoumba
August 23rd, 2013, 11:36 AM
Happy?
Yeah, lets be happy. There are so many things to be angry about.

kurt18947
August 23rd, 2013, 10:35 PM
Which is actually a bunch of bunk because all the systems on an airplane are shielded from stuff like that. They just want you to use their seat back phones so they can charge you the Big Bucks to make a call.
If cell phones or any other device that could transmit or receive were a problem then I'm sure a terrorist would just place a call to mess up the planes systems and bring it down but you just don't see that taking place, now do ya'. ;)
Even more to the point if it could happen I'm sure they'd ban phones from flights, heck, I can't even take my multi-tool on the plane because it has a serrated blade(that would be useful in cutting the seat belts in the event of a crash like just took place in Calif.) so I'm sure phones would also be banned.

I haven't kept up with it the past few years but if you go back through NASA's CALLBACK database, there were reports where there was RF interference that ceased when consumer electronics were turned off. It wasn't just phones. Yes antenna cables are shielded, that doesn't guarantee that 20+ year old cables don't have broken or abraded shielding.

Mariane
August 24th, 2013, 10:31 AM
Cellphone uses are also banned in some petrol pumps. I asked and was told they interfere with the petrol. How can that be?

vasa1
August 24th, 2013, 11:46 AM
.... Radio waves are electromagnetic, meaning it's basically like electricity ...
Awesome!

John_McCourt
August 24th, 2013, 03:56 PM
Your phone tells you that you're in "airplane mode". But how to you know for sure that it isn't broadcasting or that is doesn't have a trackable device in it like some of RFID? you trust the hardware/software manufacturers. What do you know about NFC etc? If the US government is able to manipulate companies like Microsoft into having backdoors in their software, what's to stop them having various backdoors into your device and the software and hardware level?

I write applications for Android and I'm always surprised how much private information I could potentially have access to. And that's without anyone giving me a special backdoor. GPS location of user, sim card id, contacts list, calls list, sms messages, list of installed apps, email address etc. Just because the user didn't bother reading the security permissions before installing the app. I can even send text messages on their behalf if I wanted to. Thankfully I don't abuse that in my applications, but I bet there are a bunch people who do.

Bottom line, if you're in hiding, to be sure, don't bring your cellphone.

Paqman
August 24th, 2013, 11:15 PM
Cellphone uses are also banned in some petrol pumps. I asked and was told they interfere with the petrol. How can that be?

Any radio device that's radiating can potentially induce a current in a nearby conductor. This could potentially cause a spark to jump. Around vapour coming off fuel this could cause a fire.

Highly, highly unlikely IMO. Cellphone radios aren't powerful enough to pose a serious risk of this.