Gnome: The ethics of saying just "no"

[cflow]

Very disturbing:

http://spiralinear.org/forum/discussion/1132/gnome-goes-into-damage-control-after-dev-gives-rude-reply-on-bugzilla-

I mean, every action like this, placed towards users, should show some reason as to why. A developer saying "no" - and nothing else - sounds rather condesending to the end users to me. It also shuts down any comprehensive debate - and creates this struggle that the blog article describes...

[deadflowr]

Are they really trying to replace rhythmbox with an even more stripped down version?

Are they aiming for a blank window?

[cflow]

More on the music app:

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/04/gnome-music

https://live.gnome.org/Music

Seeing it and the features, it does look rather barebones. Though rhythmbox will still be around...

[whatthefunk]

That looks horrible. Thank god Amarok exists.

[MadmanRB]

Gnome: where good ideas die a slow painful death and are removed because of crazy people.
Seriously this is why i prefer KDE

[prodigy_]

That's Gnome development team for you. I still wonder what's happened to them. It's like if they were replaced with doppelgangers at some point. They just can't be the same people who created Gnome classic because nothing they've done since 2010 makes any sense.

[deadflowr]

That's Gnome development team for you. I still wonder what's happened to them. It's like if they were replaced with doppelgangers at some point. They just can't be the same people who created Gnome classic because nothing they've done since 2010 makes any sense.

Invasion of the Body Snatchers is real, huh.

[Bucky Ball]

Thread moved to The Cafe.

Reason: Not a support question.

[cflow]

I didn't know the Ubuntu/Linux/OS chat was a support area. At first I was going to post this in the cafe, but was worried it would be moved, as I saw that only non-tech subjects were allowed there. I'm a bit confused now...

[Bucky Ball]

What is the technical support question? There are no questions, just observations, and this is the place for 'comprehensive debate'. Good luck. ;)

[Morbius1]

That's Gnome development team for you. I still wonder what's happened to them. It's like if they were replaced with doppelgangers at some point. They just can't be the same people who created Gnome classic because nothing they've done since 2010 makes any sense.
I may have an answer to that :)

Everyone who knew how everything works started looking at iOS and came to the realization that Objective-C really isn't all that different from what they have been using and now work for companies requiring mobile apps for their services / products. They can now make a decent living and pay for things like food and shelter.

There was even an article about those old Jedi masters ( old is relative here - they're talking about > 37 ) and how they seem to outperform their younger counterparts on mobile development: http://developers.slashdot.org/story/13/04/29/203205/can-older-software-developers-still-learn-new-tricks

[Linuxratty]

Are they aiming for a blank window?

Yes. The less they have to do, they better they like it. I wonder why they even bother.

[cflow]

What is the technical support question? There are no questions, just observations, and this is the place for 'comprehensive debate'. Good luck. ;)

I guess the Ubuntu/Linux/OS chat area is for technical support questions then. But I'm fine with my thread here anyway.

---

Back on topic, I wonder what Gnome shells user here would say about this. I don't mean merely to bash Gnome shell itself in this post - in fact, the blogger did try this desktop environment and liked using it over KDE. The issue here was this bug report situation that I thought was intriguing.

[mips]

Linus ranted and raved about feature removals a long time ago wrt Gnome :D

[Roasted]

I do find it interesting how at one point in time Ubuntu was criticized for branching off from Gnome and creating their own interface. Now that some time has passed and ultimately some background-workings from then floated to the surface, it's the best decision they could have made. I really can't imagine the frustration behind running a company with one goal and vision in mind and having a road block such as that. Open source can really go one of two extremes in terms of success or failure, and it's largely dependent upon the mindset and work ethic of those individuals involved to carry it one way or another.

[|{urse]

Gnome is a freaking mess. Installing it is like opening up a mystery box anymore.

[arsenic23]

The people running Gnome now are self important and arrogant to the point of comedy. I gave up on the lot of them during Gnome3's design phase, and after trying the release I quickly switched to xfce. You know something is wrong when the light GTK environment is more customizable and feature rich then the heavy. Also after using it for a while I fell in love with the xfce panels, those things are wonderful.

---------------
EDIT: I more then likely should have began with 'The people ruining Gnome' instead of 'running'.

[buzzingrobot]

Very disturbing:

http://spiralinear.org/forum/discussion/1132/gnome-goes-into-damage-control-after-dev-gives-rude-reply-on-bugzilla-

I mean, every action like this, placed towards users, should show some reason as to why. A developer saying "no" - and nothing else - sounds rather condesending to the end users to me. It also shuts down any comprehensive debate - and creates this struggle that the blog article describes...

I don't agree that removing a feature is a bug. Filing what amounts to a complaint as a bug is not appropriate.

The one-word response was also not appropriate. The bug should have been rejected and closed with a simple explanation that the feature was deliberately removed.

Many people argue that the Gnome team has somehow violated an obligation to pay attention to "people", with "people" defined as whoever is complaining at the moment. That's invalid, but the "No" response is strikingly bad PR that just provides more fuel for that kind of ranting.

FOSS developers are under no obligation to let random online posts and complaints serve as design guideposts for their software. Yet, I see many, repeated, complaints that developers in the XYZ project are failing to abide by a perceived obligation to modify their designs and their code on the basis of anecdotal online chatter.

That kind of obligation does not exist. Even if it did, how are developers and designers supposed to determine what specific opinion is held by an actual majority of their users? FOSS offers no such method. Online chatter is, by definition, created by self-selected people with particular agendas to advance.

[pqwoerituytrueiwoq]

i have noticed little features disappearing from gnome applications since i started ubuntu back in 9.04, at this point i try to avoid gnome applications as in next release i probably want be able to use the application anymore due to missing features, i cant even get the firmware version in the gnome disk utility anymore, the firmware version is important with SSDs becoming more popular. (NRV, this was restored in ubuntu 13.04, it is not in 12.10)

All i ask from a media player is minimize to tray, start minimized, play on start, shuffle, reshuffle on start, and allow me to control it via the command line using keyboard shortcuts

[cflow]

I don't agree that removing a feature is a bug. Filing what amounts to a complaint as a bug is not appropriate.

I don't consider feature removals bugs either, but there should be ethics in doing them: The developer should also mention the feature removal in the release notes for users to understand. In this case, the terminal developer didn't even mention it, and I couldn't find the documentation of it in the gnome webpage. Looking at the git summaries of gnome-terminal didn't clearly mention the removal either...

[tgalati4]

Background operations are overrated in a multi-threaded operating system.

[vasa1]

I like buzzingrobot's post (#18 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2144936&p=12647916#post12647916)).

[Mikeb85]

Very disturbing:

http://spiralinear.org/forum/discussion/1132/gnome-goes-into-damage-control-after-dev-gives-rude-reply-on-bugzilla-

I mean, every action like this, placed towards users, should show some reason as to why. A developer saying "no" - and nothing else - sounds rather condesending to the end users to me. It also shuts down any comprehensive debate - and creates this struggle that the blog article describes...

Developers don't owe users anything if the users aren't paying for the product. If a user doesn't like a feature (or lack of a feature), they can add it themselves, then redistribute it. Or they can switch to different software. Xfce is pretty nice these days.

Seriously, open source devs don't 'owe' the community anything...

[buzzingrobot]

Gnome hasn't been very good at documenting things for a very long time. They aren't alone in that.

That said, I don't see this as an ethical issue. More a display of lack of professionalism and petulance.

[whatthefunk]

Developers don't owe users anything if the users aren't paying for the product. If a user doesn't like a feature (or lack of a feature), they can add it themselves, then redistribute it. Or they can switch to different software. Xfce is pretty nice these days.

Seriously, open source devs don't 'owe' the community anything...

No they dont. And so if they dont listen to their users at least a little bit, the only thing that will happen is that their project will go extinct, whatever funding they had will disappear, and they will have to find some other project to do. The way I see it, the only people who have something to loose in a situation like this is the developers themselves. Fortunately in the Linux world, there are plenty of options so us users can be fickle. If the Gnome guys want to ignore the rest of the world and completely screw up what used to be a good thing, I encourage them to do it. Ill be using KDE. If the KDE guys decide to do the same, Ill find something else to use.

[buzzingrobot]

If the Gnome guys want to ignore the rest of the world and completely screw up what used to be a good thing, I encourage them to do it. Ill be using KDE. If the KDE guys decide to do the same, Ill find something else to use.


You know, plenty of people actually do exist who do not think that Gnome Shell is a bad thing or that KDE is a good thing.

[Morbius1]

FOSS developers are under no obligation to let random online posts and complaints serve as design guideposts for their software. Yet, I see many, repeated, complaints that developers in the XYZ project are failing to abide by a perceived obligation to modify their designs and their code on the basis of anecdotal online chatter.

That kind of obligation does not exist. Even if it did, how are developers and designers supposed to determine what specific opinion is held by an actual majority of their users? FOSS offers no such method. Online chatter is, by definition, created by self-selected people with particular agendas to advance.
I agree.

Real World: Company A makes an application called XYZ. There may or may not be a way for the customer ( what we call the "user" ) to tell the company that it does not meet their needs. But the customer can stop buying it. Revenues drop and payrolls and other debt obligations are not made and the company faces 2 choices: Change the product or go out of business.

Our World: The "developers" have a vision and make their product consistent with that vision. The "company" is under no obligation to the user directly and aside from these irritating "bug" reports that reference function may not have a mechanism to get feedback from them. So instead of the "company" having a choice to make it falls on the user to make the choice:

Do I buy into the Gnome philosophy of "If function is reduced the application becomes more functional" or do I go somewhere else more in line with my needs.

There's no point in trying to argue with them directly.

[georgelappies]

HI everybody, here is the next Gnome release!!!


But wait, there is LESS. :(

I also really fail in seeing where the Gnome devs want to bring the product to.

[kevdog]

I switched to KDE plasma about a month ago -- it's really nice. Gnome 3.8 is a mess. I think I'm done with Gnome for a while.

[tjeremiah]

GNOME lost me when I first seen what they orignally wanted to do with GNOME SHELL :o That thing was beyond hideous.

[zer010]

Admittedly, I've only tried GNOME3 in Kali Linux. I don't really see what the big fuss is. It's not good, but it's not terrible. I was able to do a few basic things. Still, it's way behind GNOME2. SO I switched to Xfce and it was goodfor a while, but I've seen it change from panels to docks*. Not really a dock fan myself, but whatever. So I went with LXDE and I've never been happier.

Sure, open source devs don't have to please anyone but themselves. However, why would a dev release their software for others to use if they don't want any kind of feedback or help? They could just as easily keep it for themselves to use and never hear another complaint again. Of course, it would then fall solely on the dev to figure out how well it fits in a particular DE and the dev will most likely never exhaust all of the case uses in which issues or workflow breakage could occur.

All this said, it would be helpfull if users were more adept at critiquing in a more positive manner instead of just complaining. I'm not sure what the exact words of the complaint was, something about transparent backgrounds, but I bet the user never addressed why this feature was needed.

*I am aware that both panels and docks can be used, even simultaneously, in Xfce.

[pqwoerituytrueiwoq]

Admittedly, I've only tried GNOME3 in Kali Linux. I don't really see what the big fuss is. It's not good, but it's not terrible. I was able to do a few basic things. Still, it's way behind GNOME2. SO I switched to Xfce and it was goodfor a while, but I've seen it change from panels to docks*. Not really a dock fan myself, but whatever. So I went with LXDE and I've never been happier.

Sure, open source devs don't have to please anyone but themselves. However, why would a dev release their software for others to use if they don't want any kind of feedback or help? They could just as easily keep it for themselves to use and never hear another complaint again. Of course, it would then fall solely on the dev to figure out how well it fits in a particular DE and the dev will most likely never exhaust all of the case uses in which issues or workflow breakage could occur.

All this said, it would be helpfull if users were more adept at critiquing in a more positive manner instead of just complaining. I'm not sure what the exact words of the complaint was, something about transparent backgrounds, but I bet the user never addressed why this feature was needed.

*I am aware that both panels and docks can be used, even simultaneously, in Xfce.XFCE uses panels, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2140890#4
it is just a little right clicking and customizing them

[mips]

SO I switched to Xfce and it was goodfor a while, but I've seen it change from panels to docks*.

*I am aware that both panels and docks can be used, even simultaneously, in Xfce.

How has XFCE changed from panels to docks? XFCE does not have any docks! If there is a dock in the distro you are using then it came from another project and has nothing to do with XFCE. Your reasoning makes zero sense.

[montag dp]

Unlike most people, I recently switched to Gnome and like it a lot. Bottom line is live and let live.

Although some of these things I've seen about how they deal with requests like this one bother me. But, I can always switch to something else if they really do mess it up.

[Copper Bezel]

How has XFCE changed from panels to docks? XFCE does not have any docks! If there is a dock in the distro you are using then it came from another project and has nothing to do with XFCE. Your reasoning makes zero sense.
They have a panel at the bottom styled to look like a dock by default, which I'd assume he's referring to. There's nothing docklike in the behavior, of course (which is the same as saying that it's simply not a dock and is certainly a panel.)

[landersohn]

I agree with buzzingrobot (#24) this is not an ethics issue.
I think the responses from the GNOME team were arrogant, shortsighted and probably outright dumb but not unethical.

If Olav Vitter doesn't like discussions about what GNOME should and shouldn't do in bugzilla, maybe he should make other avenues available .....

[Faolan84]

Hey there everyone! I am the writer of that rant that was linked to in the OP.

I did some follow up research and it seems that there is more to this story than what appears. I mead a second post in my thread explaining, but basically these features were removed because they apparently were relying on legacy dependencies and this was the only application in the Gnome suite that was still using them. Now that being said, I don't agree with how they handled the situation because they never made any indications in release notes or even in the git commits (!) this change occurred. Then they had a fit over it when someone pointed out the missing feature-set. Essentially, it seems like they caused a big scene over what was a temporary change since more than likely these features were probably slated to be reimplemented.

This all should have been explained to the user and the community. Instead, what was conveyed was a feeling and intention of hostility towards users and the Linux community as a whole.

[mikodo]

Thanks for the update.


... what was conveyed was a feeling and intention of hostility towards users and the Linux community as a whole.
And for what purpose would acting like this serve? I don't get it.

[buzzingrobot]

I did some follow up research and it seems that there is more to this story than what appears. I mead a second post in my thread explaining, but basically these features were removed because they apparently were relying on legacy dependencies...

This all should have been explained to the user and the community. Instead, what was conveyed was a feeling and intention of hostility towards users and the Linux community as a whole.

The Gnome project hasn't been very good in the communications and outreach department. I suspect it is because the project believes that role belongs to the distributions that package -- and occasionally change -- Gnome. I.e., Gnome talks to the distributions, the distributions talk to their users. I suppose making a forum available to Gnome users, as KDE does, might have some use. But developers and designers seldom frequent user forums of any sort, precisely to avoid being dragged into endless explanations of why they did what they did. (There is seldom any realistic reason to expect developers will undo what they've done. They've already moved on.)The good forums become places where users help each other; the bad forums devolve into platforms for whining and ranting.

FOSS, in reality, has two communities: User communities and developer communities. Each focuses on its own interests and members of each spend most of their time talking to each other. As much as many people argue that the Gnome project has been guilty of ignoring user wishes and feedback, very little apparatus exists to channel that feedback from users to developers in any coherent and accurate way.

Once upon a time, I spent several years working with software developers and their prospective users. Here's what I learned: Most developers would rather write code than spend time with users trying to figure out how those users might actually use their software; if you ask users what they want their software to do, they will almost always complain about perceived or real shortcomings in current software, but they will seldom offer coherent suggestions for entirely new designs. Often, the best course may be to scrap the current software and do something new, but because the current software is the framework for the conversation, it's very difficult to make that happen.

FOSS projects like Gnome are mostly free of those constraints because the livelihoods of their coders are seldom dependent on keeping users (more accuraterly, the users employer) happy.

[JDShu]

Hey there everyone! I am the writer of that rant that was linked to in the OP.
This all should have been explained to the user and the community. Instead, what was conveyed was a feeling and intention of hostility towards users and the Linux community as a whole.

Apparently, the maintainer was just tired after closing multiple instances of the same request. He should probably have marked it as duplicate, but hey, people are fallible.

[Faolan84]

Apparently, the maintainer was just tired after closing multiple instances of the same request. He should probably have marked it as duplicate, but hey, people are fallible.

Yeah I could see how that could be annoying, but it is a major failure on his part. The bug report should have been handled more gracefully as the user was not intending to be disrespectful and rude. It takes time and patience, but it is better than what resulted from his and Olav's responses. It really reflected poorly on the developers and only added fuel to the fire.



The Gnome project hasn't been very good in the communications and outreach department. I suspect it is because the project believes that role belongs to the distributions that package -- and occasionally change -- Gnome. I.e., Gnome talks to the distributions, the distributions talk to their users. I suppose making a forum available to Gnome users, as KDE does, might have some use. But developers and designers seldom frequent user forums of any sort

While it is not practical for most FOSS projects to have such outlets and construct, for a project as big as Gnome it really is necessary. We are talking about a major piece of software that users interact with in an active manner, everyday. While the distros should provide outlets for the users to make the praise and gripes, it is also a good idea for the Gnome project to do so as well given the magnitude of their project. In many ways, I think that Bugzilla provides those tools already and I disagree with Olav's analysis that a feature request is not a bug. I have in the past posted on KDE's Bugzilla feature requests and while many times I was turned down some times I had a developer thank me for the idea, but NEVER have I been treated in a manner similar to how Christian and Olav treated these users. Now I have been asked to do some research or put up diagrams of how I think it should be implemented, but I don't really see that as burdensome. It is a reasonable suggestion and it isn't like I am being aked to code something.

It is all in the way the developers engauge the users and this situation should have never happened. The bug should have been marked as a dupilicate as stated earlier



And for what purpose would acting like this serve? I don't get it.

Some developers out there just don't like to hear criticism about their project. I feel some of the Gnome developers are like this. They treat Gnome as their baby. You can really see this when they talk about Gnome being an "experience" and many Gnome developers feel that distros should provide as close to an upstream experience as possible and talk about how important the Gnome brand is.

Certainly, this isn't all of the projects developers, but we see it in much of the design. And the fact that major core changes seem to happen on a whim as well. But there does some to be a lot of arrogance and disdain towards users in general, like their comments that widescreen users were idiots, etc.

The Gnome project needs to come to a realization that if they want users to use their productions then they have to be willing to create something that the users feel they have sufficient control over and are able to customize to their liking. And this goes double for a project as large as the desktop and working environment.

Why they would take such a seemingly hostile stance, I do not understand, and I really hope that much of this is wrought on by the frustrations of creating what essentially is a new desktop and paradigm and that hopefully, very soon, they will in the future really start churning out something with solid quality without having to remove features or focus on a narrow window of contexts.

After trying out 3.6 on openSUSE and realizing just how solid it is (albiet it could be faster, especially starting up), I have to say that that I remain optimistic.

What I think Gnome needs to focus on is not a new Music app, but rather a something that is missing on the GTK+ front: a quality IRC client. Something like Konversation or perhaps Quassel that lets me choose different user profiles and have them connect to networks in a sensible and flexible manner.

Another thing, make "Web" more robust. Per-site javascript, plug-in, and cookie controls that are easily accessible and work on the fly like No-Script. It is 2013, why are these control features not baked into every browser in an easy to use manner? Or at least distributed in a default set of plug-ins? Heck, when I contacted the developers of Rekonq about it, they wanted pictures and diagrams so they could start working on it ASAP. As much as Gnome has been pushing Web, this is something that needs to be implemented if they want to be taken seriously, because the competition is working on this.


In the end, this is all about approach, and I think Gnome has a lot of good ideas and if they play their cards right, they will have a bangin' distro that is top-notch in a year or so. However, that is IF they can play their cards right. I wish to remain optimistic that eventually the developers will come around as the distros can only do so much to improve the experience. With so much attention on MATE right now, I think the pressure is on.

[Faolan84]

Also, I still have yet to hear back from Mr. Vitters, whom I contacted via email. I really am looking forward to a response, to my inquiries and I also asked him some questions about the future of Gnome and his take on various things. Hopefully I will hear back from someone soon. However, given the fact that I was very critical of him in my post on Spiralinear, I understand he might be a bit apprehensive about the whole situation. But I felt I should at least give someone at Gnome an opportunity to respond to what are admittedly very harsh criticisms.