Linux for doing business

[moribashi]

Hi

I have tried to use Ubuntu for 3 years. Tried means that I have been using it at work and also at home but always returned to Windows because it doesn't matter how hard you trie - there is allways need for Windows virtual machine to do some certain thing you can't do on Linux. But that is not something I wanted to write about...

I wanted to know if anyone knows how is Canoncial as Ubuntu main developer using Ubuntu as business desktop? Are they using Linux only? Do they get everything done with LibreOffice considering that a lot of their parters are sending (at least i believe it is so) in Microsoft Office documents. What kind of e-mail solution are they using - mostly calendaring? Thunderbird is main e-mail client in Ubuntu but there are no calendars out of the box. What kind of e-mail server they are using?

It would be very interesting to know how they are using Ubuntu for doing what they are doing every day :)
If someone knows it would be really nice to hear your comments.

[3rdalbum]

That would be a very interesting topic for an article, if anyone knows.

Unfortunately, Canonical has been caught-out in the past using Macs and proprietary software for graphic design. I kinda can't blame them too much for not using Ubuntu for this as the software just isn't good enough, but it's still a shame.

[coffeecat]

Thread moved to Ubuntu, Linux and OS Chat.

[mastablasta]

interesting questions.

a few things though...


I wanted to know if anyone knows how is Canoncial as Ubuntu main developer using Ubuntu as business desktop? Are they using Linux only? Do they get everything done with LibreOffice considering that a lot of their parters are sending (at least i believe it is so) in Microsoft Office documents.

Libre office can read MS office documents. the only thing i can think of is that formating could be off in some cases or some specific excell sheets wouldn't work well. but then again there is export as option in ms office as well.


What kind of e-mail solution are they using - mostly calendaring? Thunderbird is main e-mail client in Ubuntu but there are no calendars out of the box.
Thunderbird has plugin for calendar that is kind of unnoficial/official calendar for T. it works quite well so what would be the issue? remember how thunderbird ran out of ideas of what else to add to the client.

[moribashi]

interesting questions.

a few things though...



Libre office can read MS office documents. the only thing i can think of is that formating could be off in some cases or some specific excell sheets wouldn't work well. but then again there is export as option in ms office as well.


Thunderbird has plugin for calendar that is kind of unnoficial/official calendar for T. it works quite well so what would be the issue? remember how thunderbird ran out of ideas of what else to add to the client.

LibreOffice has major problems with formatting and it is important to send correctly formatted documents while doing business.

Thunderbird and calendar - in my opinion you can't take seriously some unofficial plugin and deploy it and support it on hundreds or even thousands of desktops.

Any more information?

[SeijiSensei]

I don't think you can call Lightning (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/calendar/lightning/) an "unofficial" project at this point.

Some places are moving to cloud solutions like Google Docs. I'm not a advocate for that because I don't like the idea of storing company documents on a remote server not under my control.

[Gyokuro]

I do not know how big is your business but most of your listed requirements are offered via web/intranet services today. Therefore I think you should check various groupware solutions (IBM Lotus Notes, Zarafa, Novell Groupwise).

[mharv]

The software requirements you've described as "business applications" could be made by a teenager in a single weekend. If you were talking about a serious business I think they'd have enough money to hire a couple software engineers for a few weeks to build whatever they need entirely custom.

[OrangeCrate]

Regarding specifically, OOo and Libreoffice...

I've used first OOo, and then Libreoffice in my consulting practice for roughly eight years, with correspondence exchange with over 1,000 companies. The key to minimizing problems is to set up either OOo or Libreoffice to use Microsoft defaults. You can do this under Tools > Options > Load/Save > General (you will see where you can change defaults for each type of document at the bottom of that page) I currently have the defaults set to the "97/2000/XP/2003" option, but I see, that there are newer Microsoft options available. Your mileage may vary, of course, but, I've never run into compatibility problems with docs, spreadsheets, or presentations (which is all I use) doing this.

Regarding other business apps I use...

First, I am Linux only, and have been since 2004. On the business computers, I have only used LTS releases since Dapper. Ubuntu on the desktop, and Xubuntu on my laptop. My domain email is forwarded to Gmail for the archiving feature. I use Thunderbird to read/write email from three accounts, all using IMAP. I use Google calendar which I share with family, and a few master clients. I use Google Drive to store business documents on line as part of an overall strategy to back up my computers and to exchange docs between computers (the other part of the back-up scheme are flash drives kept in a fireproof safe).

Just my opinion, but, I would expect, that on a larger scale, Canonical wouldn't be too much different than I am in their choice of products. Much more custom written applications certainly, but, a heavy emphasis on open source none-the-less. If they do use Macs, as rumored, that's fine with me too. My wife used a MacBook Pro. Nice machine.

[thatguruguy]

Hi

I have tried to use Ubuntu for 3 years. Tried means that I have been using it at work and also at home but always returned to Windows because it doesn't matter how hard you trie - there is allways need for Windows virtual machine to do some certain thing you can't do on Linux. But that is not something I wanted to write about...

I wanted to know if anyone knows how is Canoncial as Ubuntu main developer using Ubuntu as business desktop? Are they using Linux only? Do they get everything done with LibreOffice considering that a lot of their parters are sending (at least i believe it is so) in Microsoft Office documents. What kind of e-mail solution are they using - mostly calendaring? Thunderbird is main e-mail client in Ubuntu but there are no calendars out of the box. What kind of e-mail server they are using?

It would be very interesting to know how they are using Ubuntu for doing what they are doing every day :)
If someone knows it would be really nice to hear your comments.

I'm always curious what people mean when they talk about "doing business" using Linux. What kind of business are you referring to?

I'm a lawyer and use Ubuntu exclusively on my desktop. I use Evolution for my e-mail client due to the built-in calendar, and my calendar stays in-sync across my various devices since the Evolution calendar recognizes my entries in google calendar. The lawyer that I collaborate the most with (who maintains her own firm) uses OpenOffice on her Windows computer, so we don't have any issues w/r/t compatibility. I typically send documents to my clients in .pdf format, because I want my clients' input on my documents, but don't want them to edit the documents themselves. [Actually, my pdfs CAN be edited, but most of my clients don't realize that.]

So, again, what kind of business are you referring to?

[OrangeCrate]

I'm always curious what people mean when they talk about "doing business" using Linux. What kind of business are you referring to?

I'm a lawyer and use Ubuntu exclusively on my desktop. I use Evolution for my e-mail client due to the built-in calendar, and my calendar stays in-sync across my various devices since the Evolution calendar recognizes my entries in google calendar. The lawyer that I collaborate the most with (who maintains her own firm) uses OpenOffice on her Windows computer, so we don't have any issues w/r/t compatibility. I typically send documents to my clients in .pdf format, because I want my clients' input on my documents, but don't want them to edit the documents themselves. [Actually, my pdfs CAN be edited, but most of my clients don't realize that.]

So, again, what kind of business are you referring to?

I could/should have mentioned in my previous post, that I do the same. In fact, it was the ability to create .pdf docs on the fly, that originally drew me to OpenOffice.org.

[mJayk]

interesting questions.

a few things though...



Libre office can read MS office documents. the only thing i can think of is that formating could be off in some cases or some specific excell sheets wouldn't work well. but then again there is export as option in ms office as well.


Thunderbird has plugin for calendar that is kind of unnoficial/official calendar for T. it works quite well so what would be the issue? remember how thunderbird ran out of ideas of what else to add to the client.


Sorry but for anything other than plain text libre office sucks at reading MS docs.

[mharv]

Sorry but for anything other than plain text libre office sucks at reading MS docs.
So then pay someone to modify it to work the way you want, pay (or continue to pay) Microsoft even more money for a Microsoft Office license, or do it yourself. Those are your choices.

[Tamlynmac]

mJayk
Sorry but for anything other than plain text libre office sucks at reading MS docs.

Or does MS Office suck at formating and exporting for Libre Office. All in one's perspective.

The difference is more philosophical, either you support companies whose sole goal is to profit from initial sale and every conceivable upgrade - or you support Linux/FOSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open-source_software). As mharv points out, the source code can be copied, changed, studied and improved. IMHO that alone separates Linux from MS. Of course, the typical response to that is "I don't have time or the skill level, it's easier to just pay for the upgrades" which is exactly what Windows software depends on. Ask yourself why Windows products refuse to share their source code? :smile:

Why keep trying a different product if one's completely satisfied with their existing product? Either they have time to waste, are actually dissatisfied with the existing product or have an agenda. I'm always surprised when a user comes here to complain that Linux products don't play well with Windows or that (in their opinion) they can't compete with MS products. Yet they never discuss source code only existing product. One could pay a professional (or do it themselves) to alter the source code, or they can pay software companies to spoon feed them on a regular basis. Which choice does one believe (closed or open source) would grow faster, contain more creativity/imagination and improve user knowledge base - if supported equally? Once the door is opened to all users, I wouldn't be surprised if software advancements grew exponentially. Instead of controlled linear improvements, based solely on profitability.

Just my $0.02

[mharv]

In my experience a person who talks about business as something != technology know little about "linear" or "exponentially" aside from that math class they took that was "a waste of time" and something "never used in the real world". TCO is the only math they understand and the TCO is lowest by using Linux as a platform for ANY software (Unless the only purpose of your software is to support specific other software. If my entire business was to provide technical support to Photoshop users I would not train my representatives on Linux but my infrastructure damn sure would be).

[Tamlynmac]

mharv
In my experience a person who talks about business as something != technology know little about "linear" or "exponentially" aside from that math class they took that was "a waste of time" and something "never used in the real world".

Perhaps, your experience is flawed. I started my career in electron microscopy and later moved into the world or process engineering (design, integration and implementation). I've received security clearances and worked at both Los Alamos and EG&G Idaho. Then moved on (with a friend) to start our own contract engineering company. I understand that type of employment may be beyond your expertise or comprehension, but I'm certainly not going to waste time explaining them here. Nor, will I waste my time arguing or debating with anyone who believes it's wise to belittle someone unknown to them. That action alone, IMO speaks volumes about an individual.

I will unsubscribe from this thread rather than risk being penalized and you can post anything you like regarding my knowledge base, experience or intellect. As I have no need to impress or influence anyone on this forum. Guess, I just don't fell that insecure.

Good Luck

Just my $0.02

Quote of the day (Author Unknown):
"It's far better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

[mharv]

You and I understand each other but you're wrong and always will be. And as Tamylynmac points out "Either they have time to waste, are actually dissatisfied with the existing product or have an agenda." At some point all of us had no experience with an existing product to be dissatisfied with, so everything you said is contradictory. Why do you defend Microsofts agenda based on subjective experience? The question is the point, there's no need to answer it, it's just to point out your hypocrisy and motivations beyond the realm of TCO.

[coldraven]

What is it with sending .doc files? This is not 1998 anymore.
I think you'll find that pdf files are all over the internet, that might be a clue as to what format you should be using.
Libre Office does all that I need, all my invoices are exported to pdf.

[mastablasta]

LibreOffice has major problems with formatting and it is important to send correctly formatted documents while doing business.

Thunderbird and calendar - in my opinion you can't take seriously some unofficial plugin and deploy it and support it on hundreds or even thousands of desktops.

Any more information?

haven't really ahd any major porblems. we moved a book that had 280 pages form MS to libre. the only issue was bullets changed and some fonts were missing in linux but once i instaleld them it was all the same. it then got exported to PDF. here a good quesiton is what kind of formattign are you talking abotu and what kind of business? where i work we use windows (XP and 7). the only thing we get in ms format are contracts, sometimes some quality report and orders (in excel). they all look the same to me if i import them to libre office.

ah so it seem TB plugin is offical. well it works well for us.



So, again, what kind of business are you referring to?

exactly it depends on what kind of business we talk about here. in company where i work spreadsheets are mostly used. word docuemtns here and then but nothing major that libre office won't open nicely. which is why i do not understand the lingering on MS, since all products i use have good linux alternatives or
linux ports. i know R&D and maybe design studio might use some thing like photoshop, or some specialised porgrammes so they could stay on windows if they need to but for others...

furthermore i the company that sent space dragon ship to space is linux exclusively. NASA just announced they will move fully to linux. Peugeot i believ uses linux. Munich city uses it etc. etc. point is many use it. so how can they work if all is not compatible with MS office? i believe the office is not as important as some other windows based applicaitons (certian ERP , Photoshop, some CAD/CAM stuff and similar). exchanging documents is easy (as others mentioned - if you use PDF). so i guess in at this moment it really does matter what kind of company/business.


Sorry but for anything other than plain text libre office sucks at reading MS docs.

not really. depends how you set it up. it used to be like that yes, but a lot has changed.

[mharv]

do you people not understand what he's trying to do? Shut it down quick and don't give him the negative attention he's trying to get,

[prodigy_]

What is it with sending .doc files? This is not 1998 anymore.
I think you'll find that pdf files are all over the internet, that might be a clue as to what format you should be using.
Libre Office does all that I need, all my invoices are exported to pdf.
"Internet" is the key word here. Converting to PDF is a one-way road and people generally want to be able to edit documents they receive from their business partners. I guess you've never worked in IT and never had to explain to a user that no, they can't really edit PDF. And no, they can't convert it back to DOC/whatever without losing most of formatting unless the company is willing to purchase software specifically for the task. And no, Adobe Acrobat won't do. And... well, you get the picture, I believe.

It's a very, very good thing most people don't even try to bother with PDF.

---

Back to topic:
I don't think there' s a FOSS alternative to Exchange. And investing in Exchange is rather unwise unless you have Windows/Outlook clients. So it's either Windows all the way or a custom Linux-based solution which is entirely possible but may take quite some time to implement.

Another problem is ActiveX. Unfortunately, if you need a browser that can work with ActiveX websites reliably, you need IE.

Finally, some professional software is still only available for Windows platform. FOSS alternatives may or may not exist and may or may not meet your requirements. That's something you need to investigate very thoroughly while you're planning the migration.

So, in short, everything is possible but you need to consider time, effort and costs involved. If you need to migrate existing infrastructure, it's a project that'll take you months (or even years) to prepare and push to production.

[thatguruguy]

"Internet" is the key word here. Converting to PDF is a one-way road and people generally want to be able to edit documents they receive from their business partners. I guess you've never worked in IT and never had to explain to a user that no, they can't really edit PDF. And no, they can't convert it back to DOC/whatever without losing most of formatting unless the company is willing to purchase software specifically for the task. And no, Adobe Acrobat won't do. And... well, you get the picture, I believe.

It's a very, very good thing most people don't even try to bother with PDF.

As mentioned earlier, I don't want my clients to edit the documents I provide to them.

That being said, it is quite possible to create an editable pdf, if you're into that kind of thing. In fact, I've attached one to this post, so you can try it out yourself. The fact that you may not know how to do it doesn't mean that it can't be easily done.


Back to topic:
I don't think there' s a FOSS alternative to Exchange. And investing in Exchange is rather unwise unless you have Windows/Outlook clients. So it's either Windows all the way or a custom Linux-based solution which is entirely possible but may take quite some time to implement.

Have you looked at Zimbra (http://www.zimbra.com/)?


Another problem is ActiveX. Unfortunately, if you need a browser that can work with ActiveX websites reliably, you need IE.
I agree that ActiveX is a problem. In fact, as a former web developer, I'd say that ActiveX provides all kinds of problems. But that's a different topic. It goes back to my previous question of what kind of business is being discussed; most businesses aren't web developers.


Finally, some professional software is still only available for Windows platform. FOSS alternatives may or may not exist and may or may not meet your requirements. That's something you need to investigate very thoroughly while you're planning the migration.

So, in short, everything is possible but you need to consider time, effort and costs involved. If you need to migrate existing infrastructure, it's a project that'll take you months (or even years) to prepare and push to production.
Not to beat a dead horse, but we're back to the "what kind of business" question. For instance, i'm not convinced that the average banker, broker, accountant, doctor or attorney needs to rely upon the Adobe Creative Suite on a daily basis. If you could provide some specifics, that would be helpful.

[Lars Noodén]

Back to topic:
I don't think there' s a FOSS alternative to Exchange. And investing in Exchange is rather unwise unless you have Windows/Outlook clients.

In addition to Zimbra, the other two that come to mind are Citadel (http://citadel.org/) and Kolab (http://kolab.org/). If you really want to emulate Exchange, then you can probably also throw in Procmail and have it delete 10% - 30% of your mails. If you're just looking for mail, then there are plenty of FOSS mail servers and they are even in the repositories.

[Lars Noodén]

SOGo (http://www.sogo.nu/english/about/overview.html) can also be added to the list.

[llanitedave]

Quote Originally Posted by prodigy
Finally, some professional software is still only available for Windows platform. FOSS alternatives may or may not exist and may or may not meet your requirements. That's something you need to investigate very thoroughly while you're planning the migration.
So, in short, everything is possible but you need to consider time, effort and costs involved. If you need to migrate existing infrastructure, it's a project that'll take you months (or even years) to prepare and push to production.

Not to beat a dead horse, but we're back to the "what kind of business" question. For instance, i'm not convinced that the average banker, broker, accountant, doctor or attorney needs to rely upon the Adobe Creative Suite on a daily basis. If you could provide some specifics, that would be helpful.

I'm sure specifics could be found in abundance for just about every industry. My own industry is geology and mining, and we use mine design software such as Surpac (http://www.gemcomsoftware.com/products) and Leapfrog (http://www.leapfrog3d.com/). No support there for anything but Windows.

Of course, we also heavily use Microsoft Office and Access, both of which make me cringe. But until the flagship products become multiplatform, I have little hope that the business will ever move towards adoption of a less proprietary administrative format.

[prodigy_]

Zimbra
The free version lacks so many features it's not even funny. Like I said, if you want a full featured and FOSS alternative to Exchange, you have to improvise. A lot. Just as with Linux environments in general. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. :) If your IT team is up to the challenge, you can turn Linux into exactly what you want.

[mike acker]

LibreOffice has major problems with formatting and it is important to send correctly formatted documents while doing business.

Thunderbird and calendar - in my opinion you can't take seriously some unofficial plugin and deploy it and support it on hundreds or even thousands of desktops.

Any more information?

I think it is more msft/word that has major problems. (it has always been a stinker) . the trouble is they are currently the business standard

i recently updated to LibreOffice 4.0.2.2 ( yesterday ) . so far i'm getting better results in feeding .docx format to msft/office version 2010 : at least msft/office (word) accepts the .docx document rather than yelling that the document is "corrupt"

yelling the document is corrupt will get you instantly rejected

MSFT managed to get the ISO to adopt their OOXML process as the new Open Standard however . so in looking at this question we need to ask : does the document meet the ISO/OOXML standard ?

the APA formatted document my daughter just sent me came in OK although it had 2 comment type overlays that LO did not handle properly . I just deleted them and that fixed the issue .

the thing about Linux/Ubuntu and especially LibreOffice is that this will be HUGE for students! : a QUALITY O/S -- and free office software!!