Who wants to test MIR?

[Gyokuro]

Found this after reading some news site. I hope it is ok to post it in Ubuntu+1.

'Mir' display server

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec

and here something about 'UnityNext'

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnityNextSpec

[zika]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2121105&p=12541218#post12541218

[grahammechanical]

Read about it.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/canonical-announce-custom-display-server-mir-not-wayland-not-x

https://launchpad.net/qmir

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec

Get it. Quantal and Raring here.

https://launchpad.net/~mir-team/+archive/staging

What about Unity Next?

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnityNextSpec

[zika]

Read about it.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/canonical-announce-custom-display-server-mir-not-wayland-not-x

https://launchpad.net/qmir

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MirSpec

Get it. Quantal and Raring here.

https://launchpad.net/~mir-team/+archive/staging

What about Unity Next?

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/unity-next-project-announced

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnityNextSpec

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2122233
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2121105&p=12541218#post12541218

PPA already turned on. Waiting for mir (in my native language that means „peace“...)...

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxNzM

[sanderj]

Waiting for mir (in my native language that means „peace“...)...



Yep, and Mir was a Sovjet space station, and Mark Shuttleworth (the man behind Canonical / Ubuntu) was in space once. So there might be a correlation between that.

[sgage]

I will follow this with interest, but I am, quite frankly, not a Unity guy. It might be time for me to go shopping for another distro that really supports Gnome Shell.

[zika]

Yep, and Mir was a Sovjet space station, and Mark Shuttleworth (the man behind Canonical / Ubuntu) was in space once. So there might be a correlation between that.Thank You for reminding me to try toredo (via miredo)... It works!


I will follow this with interest, but I am, quite frankly, not a Unity guy. It might be time for me to go shopping for another distro that really supports Gnome Shell. In which way this distro does not support GS? I'm writing this from up-to-date GS... What am I missing? Next message might be from Unity, next from fallback... Not to mention many other WM that I have on my disposal running just Ubuntu...

[sgage]

This distro currently supports GS just fine, and indeed, I am writing this on an up-to-date GS 3.7.90. I've been with Ubuntu since Warty, and am not a compulsive distro-jumper.

I'm just wondering how/if GS will work under Mir.

[Mikhail.Inspired]

I would absolutely love to be able to test it, but I haven't read or seen anything that demonstrates that it is available for testing. Have I missed something?

[Budovi]

Ehm,

yes, this should have own thread :) it is now spread over 5 others and a little OT...

Assumption: Canonical reconsider this idea deeply and is going to follow this goal.
Status: I think this move is necessary.
My reaction: HELL YEAH :D I hope most of (GNU)/Linux community will participate in this. I'm really looking forward to this :) Finally I can say that they are doing something. This move makes me believe that they are not leaving PC/laptop segment. Hope the best.

Result: Epic win or even more epic fail :D for me it is 80:20 because it looks like really good thought out idea. Burn all the haters :D

Edit: maybe is considerable merge with this topic: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2122258

[EgoGratis]

I'm just wondering how/if GS will work under Mir.

Probably it will work just fine. Something like XFCE i am not sure. But XFCE (Xubuntu) could still use different display server until it upgrades to GTK+ 3 that is said will have Mir support. If Ubuntu will not switch to lets say KDE apps then i doubt GNOME 3 apps will have problems running on Mir. But this is just my speculation based on current info.

[sgage]

Probably it will work just fine. Something like XFCE i am not sure. But XFCE (Xubuntu) could stil use different display server until it upgrades to GTK+ 3 that is said will have Mir support. If Ubuntu will not switch to lets say KDE apps then i doubt GNOME 3 apps will have problems running on Mir. But this is just my speculation based on current info.

These are times of change, and I guess we just have to wait and see how it all shakes out...

[Gonewild]

What can I do with the PPA at tis point?

[zika]

This distro currently supports GS just fine, and indeed, I am writing this on an up-to-date GS 3.7.90. I've been with Ubuntu since Warty, and am not a compulsive distro-jumper.
I'm just wondering how/if GS will work under Mir.Much water will flow under the London bridges before that happens... ;)

[zika]

What can I do with the PPA at tis point?
Add it, turn it on, and... wait... ;)

[EgoGratis]

These are times of change, and I guess we just have to wait and see how it all shakes out...

True and again based on current info it will take at least one year to start thinking about desktop implementation. Primary objective is mobile devices and a lot can change in a year or two. And things are going to change for sure Xorg will stay relevant for some time to come but the fact new display servers are on the rise well this trend probably can't be stopped.


What can I do with the PPA at tis point?

Looking at it first we have to wait Mir package is built. Then i don't know probably it would work only with open source drivers. About running apps on it maybe in "Xorg compatibility" mode? It can't just replace Xorg at this moment based on packages in the PPA that would mean it's "production ready". ;)

[sgage]

Much water will flow under the London bridges before that happens... ;)

Like I said to EgoGratis... these are times of change... :KS

[zika]

Like I said to EgoGratis... these are times of change... :KSWe at U+1 love times such that. Don't we? :popcorn:

[sgage]

We at U+1 love times such that. Don't we? :popcorn:

No, we like rock-solid stability at all times, and no surprises.... NOT! :KS

[Dry Lips]

Is MIR a fork of something, or are they really building a new display server from scratch?

[EgoGratis]

Based on current info Xorg compatibility is based on XWayland but toolkit support will not use Waylands work and for mobile devices it will use some of the concepts of Android display server for probably better current Android hardware/driver support... I would say it's made from scratch. But yes i could be wrong.

[sgage]

Article on Slashdot re: Mir:

http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/03/04/1933216/canonical-announces-mir-a-new-display-server-not-on-x11-or-wayland

Lots of comments, some cogent, some not so much.

[ventrical]

We at U+1 love times such that. Don't we? :popcorn:


Right on.. I hope that this 'Mir' actually does sumthing!! I mean all I have heard is talk about wayland, etc... compiz is , compiz is not .. on and on ... :) either it will fall back or fall apart :) .. whatever .. let's just roll!

[alphacrucis2]

It's vapourware at this point isn't it?

[ventrical]

No, we like rock-solid stability at all times, and no surprises.... NOT! :KS

+1

We can't test a wholly dysfunctional video interface. Watching verbose characters roll across the screen is not a functioning system. All I hear about Unity is that it is a 'graphical' interface that is sexy, punchy .. etc... and with the way the recent isos have been going it looks anything but sexy or punchy. Here we go again ... just throw *current* up agaist the wall and lets try somthing new. I busted one machine already today and borked 3 installs. I earned my keep ! :) But these days remind of the olde snail-mail days and I guess wehave to take the good with the bad.

case in point .. I saved one of my Brand New Nvidia cards GeForce210/210. It had a MSI heat sync on it. Nvidia settings reported 69C!! Thats cooking .. so I built my own fan. Now 39C. Kewl.

[ventrical]

Could someone please direct me to the link (or code) to install the 'Mir' ppa??

[alphacrucis2]

There is this ppa. No idea if it is right

https://launchpad.net/~mir-team/+archive/staging

[ventrical]

ventrical@ventrical-P4M266A-8237:~$ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:mir-team/staging

Got it! ;)

edit:

Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y
WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
libgbm1 libgl1-mesa-dri libopenvg1-mesa libxatracker1
Install these packages without verification [y/N]? y




Get:10 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libgl1-mesa-dri i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1 [49.0 MB]
Get:11 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libopenvg1-mesa i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1 [14.0 kB]
Get:12 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libxatracker1 i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1 [4,412 kB]
Fetched 58.2 MB in 3min 48s (255 kB/s)

[cole.mickens]

Mir hasn't been built for raring yet, AFAICT.

[ventrical]

I'm ready for it now. ;)

[cariboo]

merged two similar threads.

[stoneguy]

Am having a relapse of masochistic tendencies. Will give things a try even though my installed systems still run LTS fallback mode. Each machine has different video system and not all have 3D.

[serdotlinecho]

Mir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir) is the future (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/080421_shuttleworth432.jpg) :lolflag:

[cariboo]

Mir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir) is the future (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/080421_shuttleworth432.jpg) :lolflag:

Your first link, leads to a blank page. :(

[Starks]

Any way to use Mir with xorg-edgers enabled?

[zika]

Could someone please direct me to the link (or code) to install the 'Mir' ppa??

sudo apt-add-repository ppa:mir-team/staging
sudo apt-get update

[serdotlinecho]

Building & Running The Ubuntu Mir Display Server
(http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxNzg)

[ventrical]

sudo apt-add-repository ppa:mir-team/staging
sudo apt-get update


Thanks zika but I already got it ;) So now we just wait? :) lol

[nomenkultur]

disregard that... I just realized 'testing' meant watching a picture fly by and not 'testing' testing like 13.04

[zika]

Thanks zika but I already got it ;) So now we just wait? :) lolYeah, I've seen that after I replied, I was reading messages in chronological order...
We are accustomed to wait. Remember plymouth...? ;)

[grahammechanical]

Mir hasn't been built for raring yet, AFAICT.

go to the ppa https://launchpad.net/~mir-team/+archive/staging and click on Technical Details about this PPA and a panel will open and you will see Choose your Ubuntu Version. We have a choice of two: Raring (13.04) and Quantal (12.10). At the moment it might be more vapourware than software but the existence of a PPA indicates that code is going to come down the turnpike. There are couple of Ubuntu wiki pages as well regarding this stuff. That tells me that MIR and Unity Next are not skunk-works ' projects.

In the past something like this would have been held back until the next development cycle or the one after that. Could the releasing of this information and the setting up of a PPA be part of Rolling development of Raring on and on?

[ventrical]

Yeah, I've seen that after I replied, I was reading messages in chronological order...
We are accustomed to wait. Remember plymouth...? ;)

I dedicated a whole tower for this.

Should be interesting. I hope so or I'll just scratch another install.

I'm not worried. I know the testing philosophy - try to create breakage- I have plenty of hdds and processors. :)

[Gonewild]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkjeKfV9o8MPmQlSene6DmA?feature=watch Here is some work from Voss :)

[serdotlinecho]

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkj...?feature=watch (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkjeKfV9o8MPmQlSene6DmA?feature=watch) Here is some work from Voss :smile:



@Gonewild (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=1729682) Thanks for sharing :D

Is this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sITIVLcXrc) from mir staging ppa?

[Gonewild]

I think so, he's currently transitioning his work to PPA, he's answering questions on google plus :)

[zika]

Mir is available for Raring (20 minutes ago)...
How to use it? ... ;)
Ups, while we contemplate how to use it it will take 38 more minutes for it to get start on compile for amd_64...
So, in an hour or so...

[dino99]

Note: it only works with the open source : intel & radeon, nothing else right now ;)

so its a bit too early to rush on it :(

[zika]

Note: it only works with the open source : intel & radeon, nothing else right now ;)

so its a bit too early to rush on it :(Just made for my two „mean“ machines... ;)

[ventrical]

here goes....

[ventrical]

'Right now Mir is said to only work with the Intel and Radeon open-source graphics drivers, but evidently is not yet working for Nouveau.'

ahhhh ... mamma mia ! :(

Oy vey .. thankfully I have 2 Intel based machines. Serves me right! Thats what I get for skipping through docs at hyper speed :)

[Cheesemill]

Doesn't seem to be working too well so far...

http://ompldr.org/taG8zNw (http://ompldr.org/vaG8zNw)

Edit - I've also tried launching all the available mir binaries without an X server running, same result.

[ventrical]

Got the same thing here plus a bug that will not report.

[ventrical]

tried

mir -s

and got this:



root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~# mir -s
Command-line options.
Environment variables capitalise long form with prefix "MIR_SERVER_" and "_" in place of "-":
-f [ --file ] arg socket filename
-i [ --ipc-thread-pool ] arg threads in frontend thread pool
--log-display arg log the Display report
--log-app-mediator arg log the ApplicationMediator report
--tests-use-real-graphics arg use real graphics in tests
--tests-use-real-input arg use real input in tests
-h [ --help ] this help text

root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~#


but nothing works ..

[ventrical]

Doesn't seem to be working too well so far...

http://ompldr.org/taG8zNw (http://ompldr.org/vaG8zNw)

Edit - I've also tried launching all the available mir binaries without an X server running, same result.

I just scooted around and the negative press about MIR is just unbelievable. Is there a skunk after all ?
:)

edit:

They are saying on some forums that the MIR demo was faked.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/ubuntus-new-display-server-mir-gets-demoed-video

[Gyokuro]

The bad press is all over the net but Canonical shows again that they do not want to work together and fix their problems upstream instead they release something which get used in their ubuntu universe. With Mir they can control the codebase as they want to get their vision of unity - it is a slap in the face of X.org/wayland devs. Phoronix forums and google+ are at the moment interesting to read and even the Mir wiki page got overworked due to false claims which were made against wayland.

[ventrical]

Thanks for that.

Uh Oh...... looks like time for upgrade..

here goes...

[ventrical]

I am also getting this.



ventrical@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~$ mir
get chip id failed: -1 [13]
param: 4, val: 0
[intel_init_bufmgr:841] Error initializing buffer manager.
ERROR: /build/buildd/mir-0.0.2+bzr463raring2/src/graphics/gbm/gbm_display_helpers.cpp(139): Throw in function void mir::graphics::gbm::helpers::GBMHelper::setup(cons t mir::graphics::gbm::helpers::DRMHelper&)
Dynamic exception type: boost::exception_detail::clone_impl<boost::exception_detail::error_info_injector<std::runtime_error> >
std::exception::what: Failed to create GBM device

[ventrical]

mir_demo_client bug .. screenshot

[EgoGratis]

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxODQ

This is something you get ATM with Mir.

[ventrical]

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxODQ

This is something you get ATM with Mir.


Yeah .. I seen that .. but where are the commands to enter into terminal.????

[ventrical]

Ok .. here we go .. were rocking now :) lol

The following packages will be upgraded:
libegl1-mesa libegl1-mesa-drivers libgbm1 libgl1-mesa-dri libgl1-mesa-glx
libglapi-mesa libgles2-mesa libopenvg1-mesa libxatracker1
9 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 63.8 MB of archives.

[ventrical]

I think perhaps I should have done this as root:




Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y
Get:1 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libgbm1 i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [4,221 kB]
Get:2 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libgles2-mesa i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [41.0 kB]
Get:3 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libgl1-mesa-dri i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [48.8 MB]
Get:4 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libgl1-mesa-glx i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [132 kB]
Get:5 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libegl1-mesa-drivers i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [5,937 kB]
Get:6 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libglapi-mesa i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [48.5 kB]
Get:7 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libopenvg1-mesa i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [40.5 kB]
Get:8 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libegl1-mesa i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [84.8 kB]
Get:9 http://ppa.launchpad.net/mir-team/staging/ubuntu/ raring/main libxatracker1 i386 9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15 [4,444 kB]
Fetched 63.8 MB in 4min 6s (258 kB/s)
(Reading database ... 185497 files and directories currently installed.)
Preparing to replace libgbm1:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libgbm1_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libgbm1:i386 ...
Preparing to replace libgles2-mesa:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libgles2-mesa_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libgles2-mesa:i386 ...
Preparing to replace libgl1-mesa-dri:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libgl1-mesa-dri_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libgl1-mesa-dri:i386 ...
Preparing to replace libgl1-mesa-glx:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libgl1-mesa-glx_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libgl1-mesa-glx:i386 ...
dpkg: warning: unable to delete old directory '/usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/xorg': Directory not empty
Preparing to replace libegl1-mesa-drivers:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libegl1-mesa-drivers_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libegl1-mesa-drivers:i386 ...
Preparing to replace libglapi-mesa:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libglapi-mesa_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libglapi-mesa:i386 ...
Preparing to replace libopenvg1-mesa:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libopenvg1-mesa_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libopenvg1-mesa:i386 ...
Preparing to replace libegl1-mesa:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libegl1-mesa_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libegl1-mesa:i386 ...
Preparing to replace libxatracker1:i386 9.0.2-0ubuntu1 (using .../libxatracker1_9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15_i386.deb) ...
Unpacking replacement libxatracker1:i386 ...
Setting up libgbm1:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Setting up libglapi-mesa:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Setting up libgles2-mesa:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Setting up libgl1-mesa-dri:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Setting up libgl1-mesa-glx:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Setting up libegl1-mesa:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Setting up libopenvg1-mesa:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Setting up libegl1-mesa-drivers:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Setting up libxatracker1:i386 (9.1~rc2-0ubuntu0+mir1-jenkins15) ...
Processing triggers for libc-bin ...
ldconfig deferred processing now taking place
ventrical@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~$

[mc4man]

Yeah .. I seen that .. but where are the commands to enter into terminal.????

Personally see no point in this ATM, but if so I'd read the 'hacking' file, your interest may lie in the Running Mir section

https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mir-team/mir/trunk/view/head:/HACKING.md

[ventrical]

Most likely I am missing some programs.

root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~# mk-build-deps --install --tool "apt-get -y" --build-dep debian/control
W: Unable to locate package debian/control
mk-build-deps: Unable to find package name in `apt-cache showsrc debian/control'
root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~# mkdir build
root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~# cd build
root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~/build# cmake ..
CMake Error: The source directory "/root" does not appear to contain CMakeLists.txt.
Specify --help for usage, or press the help button on the CMake GUI.
root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~/build#

Also on 'Running Mir' it stops me in my tracks on the first command.

root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~/build# cd <mir_source_dir>/build/bin
-bash: mir_source_dir: No such file or directory
root@ventrical-PY028AA-ABA-A1106N:~/build#

[ventrical]

Definitly MIR is not raring to go.

[mc4man]

Definitly MIR is not raring to go.

Not sure why you thought else-wise

For future info's sake - <...> means
put what's appropriate here & lose the <>

[EgoGratis]

Definitly MIR is not raring to go.

True and let me explain why it's because if you would successfully follow instructions on the link mc4man gave you you would get what is shown in latest video:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxODQ

And you could not do much more with Mir ATM.

[ventrical]

Not sure why you thought else-wise

For future info's sake - <...> means
put what's appropriate here & lose the <>

The hype I guess. I just get overly enthusiastic. There is also an anxiety about which way Canonical is going to go with this Mir/Wayland/X situation. I'm not really worried. I just stand by wating to test whatever we get thrown at us. Sometimes it's just a dry desert, othertimes things are really fluid and dynamic.

[ventrical]

True and let me explain why it's because if you would successfully follow instructions on the link mc4man gave you you would get what is shown in latest video:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxODQ

And you could not do much more with Mir ATM.

I just took the link as a verbatim representation. Bracket is as bracket does, but not with these scripts. When I programmed in VAX/UNIX a bracket represented the beggining of an argument and the closing of an argument , not superfluosity. :)

[EgoGratis]

The hype I guess. I just get overly enthusiastic. There is also an anxiety about which way Canonical is going to go with this Mir/Wayland/X situation. I'm not really worried. I just stand by wating to test whatever we get thrown at us. Sometimes it's just a dry desert, othertimes things are really fluid and dynamic.

X looks like will stay a bit longer as reasonable choice unless Canonical has AMD and Nvidia on board with Mir. Wayland/Weston probably had a shot but if the most popular desktop Linux distribution will not use it then i doubt AMD and Nvidia will make any meaningful push away from X with the blob. I thought eventually Android, Ubuntu... will use Wayland/Weston but guess i was wrong and we will see in let's say 2 years time where will all this get us.

[EgoGratis]

Sometimes i do feel we need more successful projects in FOSS like for example Linux kernel where there really isn't any point in creating another one. Toolkit, display server... there really isn't much point in having too many of them.

I think we will have to start talking openly about this and start solving this differently.

[ventrical]

X looks like will stay a bit longer as reasonable choice unless Canonical has AMD and Nvidia on board with Mir. Wayland/Weston probably had a shot but if the most popular desktop Linux distribution will not use it then i doubt AMD and Nvidia will make any meaningful push away from X with the blob. I thought eventually Android, Ubuntu... will use Wayland/Weston but guess i was wrong and we will see in let's say 2 years time where will all this get us.

I pretty well agree at this stage of the game. That's a great synopisis.

[screaminj3sus]

X looks like will stay a bit longer as reasonable choice unless Canonical has AMD and Nvidia on board with Mir. Wayland/Weston probably had a shot but if the most popular desktop Linux distribution will not use it then i doubt AMD and Nvidia will make any meaningful push away from X with the blob. I thought eventually Android, Ubuntu... will use Wayland/Weston but guess i was wrong and we will see in let's say 2 years time where will all this get us.

Luckily those of us with intel hardware probably will be able to use mir or wayland with no problems :)

[EgoGratis]

Luckily those of us with intel hardware probably will be able to use mir or wayland with no problems :smile:

There will be problems for sure because to produce decent display server and build support around it is not an easy and quick task and ATM we have 3 of them and we are still not there yet!

[grahammechanical]

here goes....
@ventrical

I was right about you. You're an awesome tester. And you never say that the water is fine, come on in, when it actually is freezing cold. Fly Ventrical!

[ventrical]

@ventrical

I was right about you. You're an awesome tester. And you never say that the water is fine, come on in, when it actually is freezing cold. Fly Ventrical!


heheh .. Thanks Grahammechanical .. and btw .. it's cold enough out here in Mir land for sure ! :)lol

Gotta go see my eye doctor now. If I get some new glasses I might be able to start programming again .. but beta testing is a lot more fun .

[Ashtechsmith]

Thanks for putting extended information.

[ventrical]

Thanks for putting extended information.

My apologies for being off topic.

In the proper context a 'brass monkey' was used in the Royal Navy. It was a brass , triangular shaped platform where cannon balls were stacked and when it got cold enough , the balls would fall off because the metal would contract.

edit:

btw .. I was able to get Mir to actually do something. I hit ctrl+alt+F1 and entered the code mir from the command prompt. It disappeared and gave me a black screen and when i tried to get back to terminals it would just briefly flash my hostname and login - eventual having to reboot.

[zika]

My apologies for being off topic.

In the proper context a 'brass monkey' was used in the Royal Navy. It was a brass , triangular shaped platform where cannon balls were stacked and when it got cold enough , the balls would fall off because the metal would contract.

edit:

btw .. I was able to get Mir to actually do something. I hit ctrl+alt+F1 and entered the code mir from the command prompt. It disappeared and gave me a black screen and when i tried to get back to terminals it would just briefly flash my hostname and login - eventual having to reboot.
You should have used Ctrl-C to get out of there... It works for me...

[Cheesemill]

In the proper context a 'brass monkey' was used in the Royal Navy. It was a brass , triangular shaped platform where cannon balls were stacked and when it got cold enough , the balls would fall off because the metal would contract.

I didn't think that was actually true....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_monkey_%28colloquial_expression%29#Supposed_ etymology

I know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable place to get information but their sources seem to be legit.


Any, back on topic.

After todays mir updates I'm still unable to get anything functioning. I'm following the instructions in the HACKING.md (http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mir-team/mir/trunk/view/head:/HACKING.md) file, and it seems like the server is starting but I get nothing more than a blank screen. After using CTRL+C to quit back to the TTY there is a segfault error from mir onscreen.

[ventrical]

Back from the eye doc. Good report. No new glasses.

I am about to give that crtl+c a try.

[ventrical]

ctrl+c worked. After updates and reboot it trashed my installs and now I have the <Grub command prompt.

Time to bring out handy super_grub rescue!

;(

[zika]

ctrl+c worked. After updates and reboot it trashed my installs and now I have the <Grub command prompt.

Time to bring out handy super_grub rescue!

;(You're scaring me... What happened? I'll be brave and reboot... ;)

[ventrical]

Grub_Rescue saves the day !

I think it was because of new 3.8.0-11kernel.

All updated but still no mir functioning.

I'll try it on my ATi device.

[ventrical]

You're scaring me... What happened? I'll be brave and reboot... ;)


It worked , just like you said. I got back into X with ctrl+alt+F7. Then I restared normally. During the updates, though, I got the 3.8.0-11 kernel. I also | sudo update-grub | so maybe somthing I did.

EDIT:

Whoops.. I forgot to mention that I am experiementing with the XFS file system on this particular install of raring, so there could be a connection to that Grub loss.

[zika]

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxOTU

[ventrical]

I waited for wayland .. it didn't happen. Stills eems that it won't happen. Now I'm waiting for Mir.

X? I guess it will all come out in the wash.

I am preparing to try Mir on my ATi graphics. I mean .. I'll be happy even if it blinks or something.:)

[nomenkultur]

I red about this and for someone into management this triggers my ocd.

if the other display manager has an estimate cost of half a million

http://www.ohloh.net/p/weston/estimated_cost

and has been in development for 5 years, why not simply grab their code and fork it, modify, strip it etc... ?

[ventrical]

I did the install on my ati radeon and nothing happened. At this point I think it is just phantom-ware.

[EgoGratis]

btw .. I was able to get Mir to actually do something. I hit ctrl+alt+F1 and entered the code mir from the command prompt. It disappeared and gave me a black screen and when i tried to get back to terminals it would just briefly flash my hostname and login - eventual having to reboot.

That is Mir SERVER yes and to be able to see something like the demonstration in that last video on Phoronix you would have to run some demo CLIENT. I don't know if any comes with PPA or how to run it if it does. One demo CLIENT as seen in last video on Phoronix link i gave comes with following instructions in HACKING.md file but you still need PPA for patched Mesa (driver support).


I waited for wayland .. it didn't happen. Stills eems that it won't happen.

I think it will happen and ATM it's possible to do more with Wayland compared to Mir like for example running videos with MPlayer2 or browsing the web with Snowshoe web browser... You have Intel hardware and it will probably work on it and the easiest way to test it:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/rebeccablackos/

Mir will probably take few months or a year to catch up with current Wayland on the desktop but on the Mobile Mir will probably based on current info try hard to achieve something usable sooner rather than later.

[Cheesemill]

You get 3 different client applications installed as dependancies of mir, my results are as follows...

First switch to a TTY.


(sleep 5; mir_demo_client_accelerated) & mir ; kill $!
Segfaults after reporting 'Surface created'.


(sleep 5; mir_demo_client_unaccelerated) & mir ; kill $!
Segfaults after reporting 'Surface created'.


(sleep 5; mir_demo_client) & mir ; kill $!
Runs without reporting any errors and exits cleanly, but nothing is displayed on screen.

I've had about 3 lots of upgrades to the relevant packages since adding the PPA yesterday, I'll report back when any new upgrades alter my results.

[EgoGratis]

This commands should work with just using PPA? I see XMir was added to PPA. XMir would/will allow something like running (current) Unity or other apps without Mir support that uses Xorg on top of Mir.

[Gyokuro]

I red about this and for someone into management this triggers my ocd.

if the other display manager has an estimate cost of half a million

http://www.ohloh.net/p/weston/estimated_cost

and has been in development for 5 years, why not simply grab their code and fork it, modify, strip it etc... ?

The short answer is - Canonical can not control the further development of wayland but with 'Mir' they can do what they want.

[mcellius]

The short answer is - Canonical can not control the further development of wayland but with 'Mir' they can do what they want.

Maybe they learned from their Gnome experience.

[ventrical]

As I reported, I got er going! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaCMS5s2ZXA&feature=youtu.be

[ventrical]

You get 3 different client applications installed as dependancies of mir, my results are as follows...

First switch to a TTY.


(sleep 5; mir_demo_client_accelerated) & mir ; kill $!
Segfaults after reporting 'Surface created'.


(sleep 5; mir_demo_client_unaccelerated) & mir ; kill $!
Segfaults after reporting 'Surface created'.


(sleep 5; mir_demo_client) & mir ; kill $!
Runs without reporting any errors and exits cleanly, but nothing is displayed on screen.

I've had about 3 lots of upgrades to the relevant packages since adding the PPA yesterday, I'll report back when any new upgrades alter my results.

I actually got the first line of code to run!! It is just like in the video demo.

Edit:

Ok .. on the Xmir I forgot to upload this first.

it was really wierd. Mir is still loaded and I had to log in manually (without reboot) back to crtl+alt+F7, then sudo start lightdm and now I got this weird black screen with the unity panel on the side. Stuff is happening!!! :):) hehehehe

[woxuxow]

I`ll wait for MIR`s final release
i`m sure it will be fantastic

[ventrical]

You get 3 different client applications installed as dependancies of mir, my results are as follows...

First switch to a TTY.


(sleep 5; mir_demo_client_accelerated) & mir ; kill $!
Segfaults after reporting 'Surface created'.


(sleep 5; mir_demo_client_unaccelerated) & mir ; kill $!
.

This second option produces a square light blue box at top-left screen that is flashing at a very high rate and it looks like there is a figure in there if some sort.

[ventrical]

Here is the results for second app.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNHTBsUD450&feature=youtu.be

[serdotlinecho]

Here is the results for second app.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNHTBsUD450&feature=youtu.be

@Ventrical This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovu1Py4nTlQ) one is for you.

[ventrical]

@Ventrical This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovu1Py4nTlQ) one is for you.

Ah Haaaaa ... how sweet it is ! :)

[nomenkultur]

The short answer is - Canonical can not control the further development of wayland but with 'Mir' they can do what they want.


that's the thing, in open source you can fork a project and call it your own.

They could easily grab wayland's code, fork it, modify it and call it mir

it just seems a waste of half a million dollars... wayland or google's sf, when there's good code around that people can just 'grab' why need to write things from scratch?

[zika]

that's the thing, in open source you can fork a project and call it your own.

They could easily grab wayland's code, fork it, modify it and call it mir

it just seems a waste of half a million dollars... wayland or google's sf, when there's good code around that people can just 'grab' why need to write things from scratch?Especially those that does not come from our pockets... It is very difficult to judge complex corporate decisions looking through key-hole as we do here... I think that any new project that should be greeted and supported... Only time will tell... Remember how we all (including me) were reluctant to adopt plymouth...

[ventrical]

appears that the Mir ppa is down. Anyone else?

[zika]

appears that the Mir ppa is down. Anyone else?It works OK from here...

[ventrical]

It's broken depends on one machine.

I got mir to work on nvidia GeForce 210//218 using nouveau.

ctrl+alt+F1
login

then enter code:

(sleep 5; mir_demo_client_accelerated) & mir ; kill $!

Enter> and wait a few seconds.

[Cheesemill]

Is it just ATI and Nvidia machines you've got it working on so far?

Still no joy here on my Intel box.

[Stinger]

Enough is enough.
I don't wanna test any MIR, I just want to point your eyes to an article released on Muktware:
Is Wayland incapable of delivering what Mir can? (http://www.muktware.com/5341/wayland-incapable-delivering-what-mir-can)

Judge for yourselves, and finally think about what could be the motivation for Canonical to create it's own display manager ?

I have done my judging, and like Unity, I don't want to be part of it.

[ventrical]

Is it just ATI and Nvidia machines you've got it working on so far?

Still no joy here on my Intel box.

Ati, Nvidia and Intel Box.

Here is Intel Box.



00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82915G/GV/910GL Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 04)



Here is ATi Box.


01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI RV350 AP [Radeon 9600]
01:00.1 Display controller: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] nee ATI RV350 AP [Radeon 9600] (Secondary)



Here is Nvidia Box.



01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: NVIDIA Corporation GT218 [GeForce G210] (rev a2)

[ventrical]

Enough is enough.
I don't wanna test any MIR, I just want to point your eyes to an article released on Muktware:
Is Wayland incapable of delivering what Mir can? (http://www.muktware.com/5341/wayland-incapable-delivering-what-mir-can)

Judge for yourselves, and finally think about what could be the motivation for Canonical to create it's own display manager ?

I have done my judging, and like Unity, I don't want to be part of it.


The way I see it, wayland never really came into being. All we have been doing is talking about it, yada yada ... (I even tried it way back) but it actually *did* nothing... and I experimented with it today and basically it still does nothing exept show a background that looks like an old English blanket and a Gnome_terminal in the upper left hand corner of the compositor, (so am I to continue to wait for wayland too)?

I like Gnome3 and I had high hopes for wayland. Point is , that they both became exrtremely boring to work with. Yes, I am a Unity man , and it may sound as if i have a bias for Unity and there is good reason for that. That being, Unity is more comprehensible than most other desktops. Yes.. it has it's bad days when it is a stick in the mud .. but I can't see going any other way (and I don't mind forking over for the hard ware to run it!!) The other alternative is Windows 8 .. err.. or 7... but I just can't go back to that horror.

Then perhaps it may be a smart idea to throw some effort into Mir.

[dino99]

How to make a huge buzz ? :P:P

i feel Canonical knows it very well (sadly a bit too agressive about X & wayland devs, and not so elegant :mad:) and now everyone around the Linux world have a possible opinion about it. Was that the first target ? Maybe now the "dormant" X team will revive a bit that oldish piece of code, to please a bit better whats Canonical glance at.

At the end of 2013 we will be able to compare all the work done ):P

[ventrical]

This current type of indecision puts everyone between a rock and a hardplace. It makes Ubuntu core look skittish. I mean , either stick with what works or move past it and get on with the project.

[grahammechanical]

think about what could be the motivation for Canonical to create it's own display manager ?

What are you suggesting? This is the licensing for the MIR code.


GNU GPL v3, GNU LGPL v2.1, Other/Open Source (Digia Qt LGPL Exception version 1.1 )

https://launchpad.net/qmir

http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/4b47afa37eafc84400ea9e5128e11751430808f2/LGPL_EXCEPTION.txt

No one in Canonical from Mark Shuttleworth down is denying that X and Wayland are not capable of doing a lot of stuff but they say neither of them meet the needs of what Canonical wants to do with its convergence strategy.


In summary, we have not chosen Wayland/Weston as our basis for delivering a next-generation user experience as it does not fulfill our requirements completely. More to this, with our protocol- and platform-agnostic approach, we can make sure that we reach our goal of a consistent and beautiful user experience across platforms and device form factors. However, Wayland support could be added either by providing a Wayland-specific frontend implementation for our display server or by providing a client-side implementation of libwayland that ultimately talks to Mir.

[ventrical]

What are you suggesting? This is the licensing for the MIR code.



https://launchpad.net/qmir

http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/blobs/4b47afa37eafc84400ea9e5128e11751430808f2/LGPL_EXCEPTION.txt

No one in Canonical from Mark Shuttleworth down is denying that X and Wayland are not capable of doing a lot of stuff but they say neither of them meet the needs of what Canonical wants to do with its convergence strategy.


More rock solid research.

I eat crow once again.

regards,
ventrical

[Cheesemill]

@ventrical
Still no luck here on my Intel machine...

root@raring:~# lspci | grep VGA
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Core Processor Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 18)
root@raring:~#
root@raring:~# apt-cache show xserver-xorg-video-intel | grep Version
Version: 2:2.21.3+git20130306.779fc0b2-0ubuntu0sarvatt
root@raring:~#
root@raring:~# uname -a
Linux raring 3.8.0-11-generic #20-Ubuntu SMP Tue Mar 5 20:32:48 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

I'm not sure if it's because of the different graphics chipset or if there's a regression in the xorg-edgers driver.
Which Intel driver are you using?

[Stinger]

@ grahammechanical

As I see it, the motivation from Canonical is an attempt to control.
First the desktop (Unity) and now the display manager MIR
It has nothing to do with the license but, as I see it, a lot to do with control.

What will happen to all other buntu's now ? Will they have to use MIR too ?

[ventrical]

@ventrical
Still no luck here on my Intel machine...

root@raring:~# lspci | grep VGA
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Core Processor Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 18)
root@raring:~#
root@raring:~# apt-cache show xserver-xorg-video-intel | grep Version
Version: 2:2.21.3+git20130306.779fc0b2-0ubuntu0sarvatt
root@raring:~#
root@raring:~# uname -a
Linux raring 3.8.0-11-generic #20-Ubuntu SMP Tue Mar 5 20:32:48 UTC 2013 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux

I'm not sure if it's because of the different graphics chipset or if there's a regression in the xorg-edgers driver.
Which Intel driver are you using?

lshw



*-display
description: VGA compatible controller
product: 82915G/GV/910GL Integrated Graphics Controller
vendor: Intel Corporation
physical id: 2
bus info: pci@0000:00:02.0
version: 04
width: 32 bits
clock: 33MHz
capabilities: vga_controller bus_master cap_list rom
configuration: driver=i915 latency=0
resources: irq:16 memory:cfe80000-cfefffff ioport:b800(size=8) memory:d0000000-dfffffff memory:cfe40000-cfe7ffff
*-multimedia

[ventrical]

@ventrical

I'm not sure if it's because of the different graphics chipset or if there's a regression in the xorg-edgers driver.
Which Intel driver are you using?


I'm just making sure .. have you got all of these?

[Cheesemill]

rob@raring:~$ aptitude search mir | grep "^i"
i libmirclient-demos - Display server for Ubuntu - example client
i A libmirclient-dev - Display server for Ubuntu - development he
i libmirclient0 - Display server for Ubuntu - client library
i A libmirprotobuf-dev - Display server for Ubuntu - protocol defin
i A libmirprotobuf0 - Display server for Ubuntu - protocol imple
i A libmirserver0 - Display server for Ubuntu - server library
i mir - Display server for Ubuntu - server executa


Everything except libmirserver-dev, I'll install that and see if it makes a difference.

Edit - Looks like I'll have to wait a while...

rob@raring:~$ sudo apt-get install libmirserver-dev
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies.
libmirserver-dev : Depends: libmirserver0 (= 0.0.2bzr478raring0) but 0.0.2+bzr466raring1 is to be installed
Depends: libmirprotobuf-dev (= 0.0.2bzr478raring0) but 0.0.2+bzr466raring1 is to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.

[ventrical]

rob@raring:~$ aptitude search mir | grep "^i"
i libmirclient-demos - Display server for Ubuntu - example client
i A libmirclient-dev - Display server for Ubuntu - development he
i libmirclient0 - Display server for Ubuntu - client library
i A libmirprotobuf-dev - Display server for Ubuntu - protocol defin
i A libmirprotobuf0 - Display server for Ubuntu - protocol imple
i A libmirserver0 - Display server for Ubuntu - server library
i mir - Display server for Ubuntu - server executa


Everything except libmirserver-dev, I'll install that and see if it makes a difference.

Edit - Looks like I'll have to wait a while...

rob@raring:~$ sudo apt-get install libmirserver-dev
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies.
libmirserver-dev : Depends: libmirserver0 (= 0.0.2bzr478raring0) but 0.0.2+bzr466raring1 is to be installed
Depends: libmirprotobuf-dev (= 0.0.2bzr478raring0) but 0.0.2+bzr466raring1 is to be installed
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.




I have encountered the exact same thing on one of my Nvidia machines. It is really very tricky. That libmirserver-dev has certain headers that are required. After I nstalled the ppa and then used synaptic I forgot to *include* that file and now I have the same errors as you on one machine.

I'll brb.

[ventrical]

Compelety lost my ubuntu-desktop (unity) on that install after reboot.

back to work.

[ventrical]

I have lighdm and terminal but cannot get Unity desktop, gnome-fallback or Cairo-Dock. Luckily I had already installed fvwm-crystal and I am on that desktop with FF atm. The mir ppa and files appear to be borked also and it is holding back a kernel.

Edit:

Just wait for now. Don't remove nothing .. or you may loose your desktop.The Mir repo is very touchy.

At least on this one install.

[Cheesemill]

Looks like there's some lightdm packages in the mir PPA now. Interesting....

http://ompldr.org/taG9vdg (http://ompldr.org/vaG9vdg)

[Cheesemill]

Finally got it all running on my Intel box after purging the xorg-edgers PPA.

[ventrical]

Finally got it all running on my Intel box after purging the xorg-edgers PPA.


Bravo! :)

and those updates worked well on my Intel machine.

[Mr.JJ]

The way I see it, wayland never really came into being. All we have been doing is talking about it, yada yada ... (I even tried it way back) but it actually *did* nothing... (so am I to continue to wait for wayland too)?

Do you even realise that the xmir (all the so called mir demoes and all) is essentially xwayland? Probably not; else you wouldn't have made that comment.

http://samohtv.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/mir-an-outpost-envisioned-as-a-new-home/ :
...We have integrated X, leveraging the prior XWayland work, to run on top of Mir (XMir)...

[Gonewild]

I couldn't install any demo apps trough apt-get, but then I tried Synaptic - everything is up and running now (nvidia 9500 GT) :)
btw you have to purge xorg-edgers alright...

[zika]

Now we have lighdm from Mir PPA...
If I have to choose between Mir and XorgEdgers it will be a tough battle...
OK, I'll try living without XE for some time...

[ventrical]

Do you even realise that the xmir (all the so called mir demoes and all) is essentially xwayland? Probably not; else you wouldn't have made that comment.

http://samohtv.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/mir-an-outpost-envisioned-as-a-new-home/ :

Mir is not essentially wayland. Wayland was demoed on X. Soon it is talking through Mir. It has morphed, somewhat, becomming a horse of a different colour. I have been beta testing machines of all sorts since 1975 (including pinball machines and early prototype video games). In that buisness things moved fast. Stuff got obsoleted real quick. As an Ubuntu tester I like to keep moving along , not sitting on somebodies vaporware concept. Being as overly enthusiastic as I am I often get miffed by my own poutard (that is admittedly foot in mouth) but I see it as being hopeful that things will develop and move along quickly because I am not too keen on sitting on down_time caused by unecessary bickering and superfluous discussion.

[ventrical]

Now we have lighdm from Mir PPA...
If I have to choose between Mir and XorgEdgers it will be a tough battle...
OK, I'll try living without XE for some time...


I had seen that. Does lighdm actually do anything at the moment? or can we use some code to experiement with it?

[zika]

Oh boy! Purging XE made Mir PPA take over over quite a bunch of stuff...
Investigating further...

[Mr.JJ]

Mir is not essentially wayland.
I never said so. I said that Xmir is essentially the leveraged Xwayland code; and thats not my word, thats the mir dev who is talking.
(Currently mir is nothing but xmir which is essentially xwayland so practically you could say that mir essntially is (or a minuscule part of) wayland).


In that buisness things moved fast. Stuff got obsoleted real quick. As an Ubuntu tester I like to keep moving along , not sitting on somebodies vaporware concept.

You said that wayland never really came into being and now you call it vaporware; thats what I am against. Qtwayland is working fine, xwayland is working fine, gtk backend is in finishing stages, and wayland version 1 (with backward compatibility) is already out. Don't call wayland vaporware. Wayland is the industry standard; mir is just an exception (and is just vaporware at this stage).

I don't know why people think bitching about wayland will somehow justifiy canonical's decision. Untill now no one was able to come up with any valid technical reason/justification/relavance for the project.

This quote is from Daniel Stone (https://plus.google.com/100409717163242445476/posts/jDq6BAgdpkG in the comments section)

Funny that you should heckle Wayland for being unfinished when Mir is a few linked lists and one glDrawArrays() call, nothing more.

In Mark shuttleworth's own words, it is fine you want to move along but why poison the well behind you?

[ventrical]

I never said so. I said that Xmir is essentially the leveraged Xwayland code; and thats not my word, thats the mir dev who is talking.
(Currently mir is nothing but xmir which is essentially xwayland so practically you could say that mir essntially is (or a minuscule part of) wayland).



You said that wayland never really came into being and now you call it vaporware; thats what I am against.

You are taking me out of context. I use 'vaporware" or 'phantomware' in a broader sense. Ok .. where the E'll is wayland then? Last I looked we have xserver. I tested wayland back a while ago. I see lots of stuff in the repos but it hasn't been actually adopted as in practice... I ran the weston compostior yesterday .. and you call this a working server??

Ok ... in all fairness I'll say this .. I choose not to use the weston compositor. It is just too bleak for me and although that may just be my personal opinion it is not misinformation.

...as for <in your words> ( bitching)... I am just a volunteer beta tester here. I am just trying to test what is comming out , what is current. Mir is the cutting edge right now. I just can't handle looking at the weston compo screen of an old blanket of some sort.

[Stinger]

You said that wayland never really came into being and now you call it vaporware; thats what I am against. Qtwayland is working fine, xwayland is working fine, gtk backend is in finishing stages, and wayland version 1 (with backward compatibility) is already out. Don't call wayland vaporware. Wayland is the industry standard; mir is just an exception (and is just vaporware at this stage).

+1
I totally agree with your comment JJ :D

Everyone running Ubuntu Linux these days have their eyes shut to the open source world surrounding them and believe that the only truth and the whole truth comes from Canonical.
They choose to totally ignore the commercial interest involved and gladly accept <snip> like Ubuntu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXnfa0H30L4).

[ventrical]

+1
I totally agree with your comment JJ :D

Everyone running Ubuntu Linux these days have their eyes shut to the open source world surrounding them and believe that the only truth and the whole truth comes from Canonical.
They choose to totally ignore the commercial interest involved and gladly accept "spyware" like Ubuntu (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXnfa0H30L4).


ahhhh .. yes... the gratitude..

[screaminj3sus]

Mir is not essentially wayland. Wayland was demoed on X. Soon it is talking through Mir. It has morphed, somewhat, becomming a horse of a different colour. I have been beta testing machines of all sorts since 1975 (including pinball machines and early prototype video games). In that buisness things moved fast. Stuff got obsoleted real quick. As an Ubuntu tester I like to keep moving along , not sitting on somebodies vaporware concept. Being as overly enthusiastic as I am I often get miffed by my own poutard (that is admittedly foot in mouth) but I see it as being hopeful that things will develop and move along quickly because I am not too keen on sitting on down_time caused by unecessary bickering and superfluous discussion.

Wayland has already hit its 1.0 release. QT and GTK will soon have fully working wayland backends. Mutter and Kwin are already in the process of being ported to wayland. Xwayland already exists for seemless backwards compatibility with X apps. Wayland is being worked on by many of the same developers that are working on xorg. Wayland is coming, and its definitely not vaporware.

[ventrical]

Wayland has already hit its 1.0 release. QT and GTK will soon have fully working wayland backends. Mutter and Kwin are already in the process of being ported to wayland. Xwayland already exists for seemless backwards compatibility with X apps. Wayland is being worked on by many of the same developers that are working on xorg. Wayland is coming, and its definitely not vaporware.

But in this context :

"In summary, we have not chosen Wayland/Weston as our basis for delivering a next-generation user experience as it does not fulfill our requirements completely. More to this, with our protocol- and platform-agnostic approach, we can make sure that we reach our goal of a consistent and beautiful user experience across platforms and device form factors. However, Wayland support could be added either by providing a Wayland-specific frontend implementation for our display server or by providing a client-side implementation of libwayland that ultimately talks to Mir."

It is.

[grahammechanical]

I am just a volunteer beta tester here. I am just trying to test what is coming out , what is current. Mir is the cutting edge right now.

@ventrical

That is exactly why I started this thread - to discuss the testing of MIR and I posted it in the section of the forum where we share our experiences of testing Ubuntu that is under development. And we are very happy to test all supported flavours of Ubuntu. Isn't this true? Will MIR play nice with Xfce and KDE? Will it even play nice with Gnome and Unity? When MIR is grown up enough to take on that responsibility and all anyone has to do is ask and some of us will try to find the answer. So, to get us back on topic.

I am able to run the accelerated demo on both 12.10 and 13.04 + Nvidia GT220 + Nouveau. The basic demo_client does not do anything but black screen. The unaccelerated demo now longer flashes after today's update but there are some nasty streaks across the rectangle. Now if only there could be some communication between us and the devs other than a bug report.

I know about Ctrl+C to get back to the tty but I never did learn how to get back from tty to desktop. I am having to shutdown -r now to get anywhere.

Regards - U+1 testers.

P.S. I am also thinking about what would happen if we tried to load a utility under MIR? How would one do that? I guess that the command would have to invoke MIR and somehow invoke the application. I need to investigate how those commands work.

[ventrical]

@ventrical

That is exactly why I started this thread - to discuss the testing of MIR and I posted it in the section of the forum where we share our experiences of testing Ubuntu that is under development. And we are very happy to test all supported flavours of Ubuntu. Isn't this true? Will MIR play nice with Xfce and KDE? Will it even play nice with Gnome and Unity? When MIR is grown up enough to take on that responsibility and all anyone has to do is ask and some of us will try to find the answer. So, to get us back on topic.

I am able to run the accelerated demo on both 12.10 and 13.04 + Nvidia GT220 + Nouveau. The basic demo_client does not do anything but black screen. The unaccelerated demo now longer flashes after today's update but there are some nasty streaks across the rectangle. Now if only there could be some communication between us and the devs other than a bug report.

I know about Ctrl+C to get back to the tty but I never did learn how to get back from tty to desktop. I am having to shutdown -r now to get anywhere.

Regards - U+1 testers.

I now have 4 workstations with the Mir ppa installed across 3 graphics cards, ATi, Nvidia and Intel.

Thanks for getting us back on topic

Regards,
Ventrical

[Cheesemill]

I know about Ctrl+C to get back to the tty but I never did learn how to get back from tty to desktop.

TTY7 is usually your X session, so just hit CTRL+ALT+F7.

[grahammechanical]

TTY7 is usually your X session, so just hit CTRL+ALT+F7.


Thanks - learning all the time!

[dino99]

I know that new toys enjoy kids , but Mir is far from usable; specially when such kind of error is made:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1152625

so if you have some experience to find/fix errors its fine; otherwise you only are loosing your time. Wait & see a few months later.

[Mr.JJ]

But in this context ...It is.

Yeah, the phones; Those cannot work with wayland; True that/You said it.

Only samsung is releasing many tizen phones/models this year itself (mind you, samsung; the current industry leader, not a company that will 'hopefully enter the mobile market in the future'). And tizen comes with wayland.

So what is it really that samsung did not mind/understand but the great canonical was able to identify/rectify?

[zika]

I know that new toys enjoy kids , but Mir is far from usable; specially when such kind of error is made:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/mir/+bug/1152625

so if you have some experience to find/fix errors its fine; otherwise you only are loosing your time. Wait & see a few months later.New toys enjoy kids or kids enjoy new toys...
I couldn't make my self not to joke on this... Sorry...
Not much time is spent in just having Mir installed and watching what is happening... Much more time is spent about some other stuff...

[serdotlinecho]

Only samsung is releasing many tizen phones/models this year itself (mind you, samsung; the current industry leader, not a company that will 'hopefully enter the mobile market in the future'). And tizen comes with wayland.

So what is it really that samsung did not mind/understand but the great canonical was able to identify/rectify?

Interesting argument. This is from Tizen website (https://www.tizen.org/events/presentations/upcoming-technologies-wayland-and-ofono).

Now, this made me thinking:
"Hey there fellow Intel, Samsung, Tizen and Wayland developers. You guys not doing it right. So.....surprise! This is Ubuntu Touch and....Mir! Walla!"

[EgoGratis]

I think this polarizations between users is not needed ATM. In the end Linux world can still have 3 display servers and probably Mir and Wayland based display servers will share graphic drivers that are available FOSS and blobs. It really isn't that much different from what we have now with Xorg.

The thing i expect Weston and Mir will bring is easier development process for developers and better driver situation on pair with Microsoft OS. If this happens then probably all win.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMyMTI

This clearly indicates changes are coming and probably driver situation will change on Linux soon. I don't know if it will be ideal solution and probably we will still have to use blobs when it will make sense to use the blob but this will not be too different from what we have now?

To me this latest tensions show only one thing and that is interest in Linux as "graphic station" has grown exponentially and games and CAD and drivers and everything else tightly related only to Microsoft Windows well it's like everybody started thinking why the heck didn't we support Linux yesterday already?

The biggest problem with Mir is probably much people got offended Canonical didn't tell up front what they where doing and that is it. One part can be forgivable and that is sometimes you have an idea and you can't just start pushing it you have to explore it by yourself to see if it could work.

The other part (personal feelings of many folks involved) that where left out in the dark well that is a bit more hard and here Canonical did failed and there is no point in arguing otherwise and it didn’t happened for the first time. In the future Canonical should act bit more wisely/transparent/upfront on this matter.

All things aside i am looking forward to using Mir and Weston on Ubuntu for sure and to see the competition! It's still FOSS and i don't see the problem here.

[nomenkultur]

the reason, I believe, this is generating so much drama is that this is no mere desktop environment...

there can be a million and one desktop environments and everyone is happy, but since the display manager is such a critical part of the system to have more than one can create a huge burden for developers/drivers/etc..


correct this if I'm wrong but are not the linux kernel and xorg display server the only things common to all linux distributions?

it seemed to me that the unspoken gospel was that xorg would die and wayland would take it's place... then you'd have wayland on all distributions like you have xorg now.

This would mean a better panorama for drivers/developers etc...

As an intel gfx user I was actually looking forward for wayland since I'm still hoping to get even 70% of the performance in intel that I get in windows.

[EgoGratis]

the reason, I believe, this is generating so much drama is that this is no mere desktop environment...

No some thoughts are coming from folk from Ubuntu community that probably didn't decide to speak their mind just because of Mir but small bit here and there in the past... The majority expressing negative opinion about Ubuntu are users that don't use Ubuntu or even Linux it's their moment now and Canonical did helped a bit on that but the dust will settle for sure.


it seemed to me that the unspoken gospel was that xorg would die and wayland would take it's place... then you'd have wayland on all distributions like you have xorg now.

Yes i hoped it would went this smooth but guess it didn't happen. Wayland is "just" an protocol and the reality is i expected more then one (Weston) implementation will surface and if Mir would still use Wayland protocol i still don't know if it would pleased everybody. But there really isn't any big obstacle in the end for one solution prevails in few years time more important thing is the driver situation has to come on pair or be better then what Microsoft Windows offers.


As an intel gfx user I was actually looking forward for wayland since I'm still hoping to get even 70% of the performance in intel that I get in windows.

I am quite happy with my Intel boxes and don't care if any other OS does it slightly better or worse. It's decent and FOSS and i salute Intel for making it happen and Intel GPU hardware really isn't an issue for Linux (desktop).

[Gyokuro]

@ grahammechanical

As I see it, the motivation from Canonical is an attempt to control.
First the desktop (Unity) and now the display manager MIR
It has nothing to do with the license but, as I see it, a lot to do with control.

What will happen to all other buntu's now ? Will they have to use MIR too ?

That was in my opinion always the case and as some people wrote that wayland got not more steam is that there is at the moment no really need for the X.org developers to concentrate all developer work on Wayland. Why - X works and is standard on all linux distributions, bsds and commercial UNIX systems (AIX, Solaris). Unity got never really used outsite of Ubunut's universe and with this step Canonical is trying to force ubuntu flavors to use MIR in the future. It may work but at the moment it looks like they will fail as only Canonical is arguing it is superior to Wayland/Weston which got proofen as wrong as the published code is not really useful at the moment. Looking at the phones it seems that their is much more interest of heavyẃeights like Samsung to go the Wayland root and as Intel, RedHat and other big tech companies are providing developers for Wayland (or Xorg) I do not know what Canonical can achieve with less developers.

[Stinger]

Now, this made me thinking:
"Hey there fellow Intel, Samsung, Tizen and Wayland developers. You guys not doing it right. So.....surprise! This is Ubuntu Touch and....Mir! Walla!"
Pardonne moi, but it seems like Mark S. has done your thinking :biggrin:

[cariboo]

Could we please leave personal digs out of this, and stay on topic.

[ventrical]

@ventrical



I am able to run the accelerated demo on both 12.10 and 13.04 + Nvidia GT220 + Nouveau. The basic demo_client does not do anything but black screen. The unaccelerated demo now longer flashes after today's update but there are some nasty streaks across the rectangle. Now if only there could be some communication between us and the devs other than a bug report.

.


I found out that the number after the (sleep # actually controls the speed that the displays appears.

ie;
(sleep 5; mir_demo_client_accelerated) & mir ; kill $!

is the default. I changed the number to 1 and it came up right away, 10 and it took a while longer.

I still get the flashing peacock blue box with the unaccelerated option.

Regards,
Ventrical

[Mr.JJ]

The biggest problem with Mir is probably much people got offended Canonical didn't tell up front what they where doing and that is it.

Not at all. It doesn't matter what time they announced it. What matters is they did not collaborate with others (in this case the accepted standard - wayland) to come up with a solution. If they had concerns, they should have let others know and find a common solution.

We are talking about the lower end of the stack here. At shell/app level you can have as much control/forks as you need; no probs. But at the lower end, it is essentially breaking the entire ecosystem. If we did not have gtk/qt split, how easy it would have been for app developers? At least in case of gtk/qt split there was a reason and was unavoidable. But for this split, the worst part is there is no justification; nothing whatsoever (except canonical wants control).

See what is happening with upstart/systemd. Every distros moved to systemd. Only canonical is hanging on to upstart (and only they ever used it) and they do not have any valid reasons why they do that (and it is been shown many times systemd is superior in many ways). I don't think even canonical is convinced themselves. At least create/make-up some reasons that do not challenge the common sense. I repeat, what is it that samsung did not mind but canonical did?

[dino99]

Maybe you have not seen the latest discussion comments

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMyMDE

[EgoGratis]

Not at all. It doesn't matter what time they announced it. What matters is they did not collaborate with others (in this case the accepted standard - wayland) to come up with a solution. If they had concerns, they should have let others know and find a common solution.

But Wayland is protocol and i do imagine the same "drama" would happen if Weston would not be choosed. And because of this i think we should say OK we have Mir and Wayland/Weston and probably more Wayland implementations not just Weston and OK let them compete. I do see possibility of Ubuntu using Wayland/Weston or Wayland based compositor in the future or Ubuntu flavors using it or the other way around. Why not if Mir could became viable option as upstream solution.

Said that drivers are the real issue here and driver model that will work well for both solutions this is what the focus should be on ATM.

[Stinger]

@ EgoGratis
As much as I'd like to believe you, I just cannot, Ubuntu's previous projects shows another story.
Ubuntu TV, who uses it ? Ubuntu for android, well.. ? Unity / Compiz, no other distro than Ubuntu seems to care and more and more compiz-plugins got broken because of the Unity-plugin.
Then there is Upstart as MrJJ has explained earlier on this thread:


See what is happening with upstart/systemd. Every distros moved to systemd. Only canonical is hanging on to upstart (and only they ever used it) and they do not have any valid reasons why they do that (and it is been shown many times systemd is superior in many ways).

I just cant see that MIR would be any different.
When Canonical launched MIR, the least they could do was to come up with a reason that (as MrJJ so beautifully put it) does not challenge the common sense.

[nomenkultur]

well, unity is actually the best DE in linux.

Apart from unity only pantheon is any good... I suppose xfce and lxde serve their purposes but I can't imagine myself using gnome (I've tried and it's a nightmare)

so in that particular case I'm quite happy they forked it. And you can even use the same themes etc... so it's not that significant of a change.


upstart/mir etc.. I really can see no point in not using what everyone else is using. systemd/wayland

[cariboo]

@ EgoGratis
As much as I'd like to believe you, I just cannot, Ubuntu's previous projects shows another story.
Ubuntu TV, who uses it ?

Ubuntu TV is still in development, they are looking for volunteers to help with the work.



Ubuntu for android, well.. ?

Was a technological demonstration, that will become reality, once the phone version is fully developed.


Unity / Compiz,[/ no other distro than Ubuntu seems to care and more and more compiz-plugins got broken because of the Unity-plugin.

Sam has asked several times for volunteers to take over maintaining the plugins, it seems no one seems to think the plugins are important enough to take on the work.



Then there is Upstart as MrJJ has explained earlier on this thread:

I just cant see that MIR would be any different.
When Canonical launched MIR, the least they could do was to come up with a reason that (as MrJJ so beautifully put it) does not challenge the common sense.

Upstart seems to work well enough for all the derivative and Ubuntu based distributions.

As far as MIR is concerned, if it will work on all the devices that are planned to run Ubuntu Everywhere, why not give Ubuntu/Canonical the benefit of the doubt, and see where it goes.

[Stinger]

@ cariboo907

First thanks for putting up with me ;)

Next, the benefit of the doubt for MIR, I guess I could do that. The fact is I just got used to compiz and now they seem to throw it out of the window.

You mentioned Sam Spillaz, well he doesn't seem to be to exited about MIR , and to quote him from here Confessions of a community member. On Phillip Ballew's blog (http://philipballew.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/confessions-of-a-community-member) comment-287 (http://philipballew.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/confessions-of-a-community-member/#comment-287)

What’s really disappointed me is the level of uncertainty the community as a whole is currently facing. For example, the entire story around what actually happens to 13.04 at the moment has been incredibly vague and opaque, and quite recently I was told that I was basically going to throw away 4 months of hard work because Ubuntu wasn’t going to take my patches because they don’t want to take community patches on compiz anymore. So I’ve just stopped working on compiz because I don’t even know how things are going to be handled at canonical. Which is a shame, because my patches vastly improve performance on nvidia hardware, are fully tested, developed using TDD, user tested, peer reviewed, what more could you ask for?

Ubuntu for me is now a waste of time, and I’m just focusing on my study instead. Canonical lost me as an employee by pulling these stunts on me, and now they’ve lost me as a maintainer of their legacy stack too.

Here you can red what KWin maintainer Martin Gräßlin has to say to Mark S. on his blog (http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/03/reply-to-all-the-faces-of-ubuntu/), here are the first lines:

Dear Mark Shuttleworth,

so you “have absolutely no doubt that Kwin will work just fine on top of Mir”. This is great and I totally appreciate that you think Mir is a great system. But I’m wondering why you don’t use KWin then, after all it will work fine on top of Mir and is Qt based?

But I have doubt that KWin will work just fine on top of Mir and I have already stated so. You might have wanted to check the facts before stating such claims (somehow I get a feeling for a pattern here).
You can read the rest on the blog.

Think hard about it and tell me why I should give MIR the benefit of the doubt ?

[ventrical]

@ cariboo907

First thanks for putting up with me ;)

Next, the benefit of the doubt for MIR, I guess I could do that. The fact is I just got used to compiz and now they seem to throw it out of the window.

You mentioned Sam Spillaz, well he doesn't seem to be to exited about MIR , and to quote him from here Confessions of a community member. On Phillip Ballew's blog (http://philipballew.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/confessions-of-a-community-member) comment-287 (http://philipballew.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/confessions-of-a-community-member/#comment-287)


Here you can red what KWin maintainer Martin Gräßlin has to say to Mark S. on his blog (http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/03/reply-to-all-the-faces-of-ubuntu/), here are the first lines:

You can read the rest on the blog.

Think hard about it and tell me why I should give MIR the benefit of the doubt ?


Have you actually tried to do any of the suggested tests?


Regards,
Ventrical

[cariboo]

The whole philosophy behind Linux development is if you don't like the way something works, either change it, if it is open source, or develop something new if it isn't. If Linus hadn't been dissatisfied with the way Minix worked, we wouldn't be where we are now.

I see nothing wrong with Canonical/Ubuntu wanting to develop their own display server, if Wayland development was where Ubuntu expected it to be by this time, we'd all be testing it now, but as it is, it is just a curiosity that some of us play with and discard, as it really isn't ready for everyday usage.

To quote from here (http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/03/ubuntu-mir/)


Ubuntu — possibly the most popular distribution of the open source Linux operating system — is striking out on its own. Canonical, the commercial company that oversees Ubuntu, has made a habit of building new Linux components from scratch, moving away from tools built and used by the larger open source community. That’s rubbing many Linux developers and users the wrong way, and now Canonical may have finally alienated these hard-core open sourcers.

I added emphasis to what I think is the most important point in the quote, as developing something new is the way Ubuntu works. Many aren't happy about this, but take Unity for instance, there was a huge amount of hate being shown here on the Forum, when it was first released, but now for the majority of users, it's just another desktop environment they can use or not, if and when the choose.

I guess what I'm really trying to say, if you want a traditional style distribution, use it, if you want something that may be on the cutting edge, stick with Ubuntu. The LTS version will be supported until 2017, and with the updates in the point releases it will be usable until then on even the newest hardware.

[Stinger]

@ cariboo907
I appreciate what you are trying to say, open source = freedom to choose as With MIR; if you don't want it don't choose it.
As we doing a little 'walk on the wild side' ;) I'd like to add that the Ubuntu experiment in my case started with the Breezy Badger and ended with the Maveric Meercat, ever since it has been an uphill battle.
I found a short rest in Ubuntu Gnome Remix 12.10 too.
I like community driven projects or projects were the community has influence in where the projects are heading.
But in my opinion Canonical is sacrificing the community to pursue its business.

[ventrical]

The whole philosophy behind Linux development is if you don't like the way something works, either change it, if it is open source, or develop something new if it isn't. If Linus hadn't been dissatisfied with the way Minix worked, we wouldn't be where we are now.

I see nothing wrong with Canonical/Ubuntu wanting to develop their own display server, if Wayland development was where Ubuntu expected it to be by this time, we'd all be testing it now, but as it is, it is just a curiosity that some of us play with and discard, as it really isn't ready for everyday usage.


@cariboo907

Thanks for clarifying this point. I tried (to my best) to give wayland/weston a good honest try during Precise Beta Testing. I was enthusiastic about wayland as I am about MIR now. I did most of the tests .. and then it just sort of .. well.. died. Unity , while at first having a hard time with it during Natty Narwhal, has become the most reasonable alternative for an effervescent desktop experience. For me , Unity has been a Fantastic Voyage despite whatever bugs or failings it has had. It just keeps getting better .!! Currently , on my Dell D 3100, the current xorg and compiz work just great. It is snappy , punchy and effervescent. Kudos to Mark Shuttleworth. Mission accomplished! If adopting MIR means keeping Unity as the premier desktop then I will put all I can into testing it.

Regards,
Ventrical

[ventrical]

@ cariboo907
I appreciate what you are trying to say, open source = freedom to choose as With MIR; if you don't want it don't choose it.
As we doing a little 'walk on the wild side' ;) I'd like to add that the Ubuntu experiment in my case started with the Breezy Badger and ended with the Maveric Meercat, ever since it has been an uphill battle.


But Ubuntu has always been resilient in it's recovery tools, unlike a lot of other distros. It always seems to heal itself. MIR and UNITY are like a bridge over troubled waters and I personally think that it is going to be a real success. And who knows .. with MIR even GNOME 3 may be back in the fold. One never knows eh?

Regards,
Ventrical

[cariboo]

@Stinger, it looks to me like any debate on MIR has been lost in all the hoopla about the change in UDS and the debate on a rolling release vs the status quo, but rest assured that the community does have a say in what is going on. As with all large projects though, there has to be someone that has the final say, Linus is that person in kernel development, and Mark Shuttleworth does the same here. Not everyone will be happy with their decisions, but at least the project doesn't get stalled while the debate goes on.

[EgoGratis]

@ EgoGratis
As much as I'd like to believe you, I just cannot, Ubuntu's previous projects shows another story.
Ubuntu TV, who uses it ? Ubuntu for android, well.. ? Unity / Compiz, no other distro than Ubuntu seems to care and more and more compiz-plugins got broken because of the Unity-plugin.
Then there is Upstart as MrJJ has explained earlier on this thread:


I just cant see that MIR would be any different.
When Canonical launched MIR, the least they could do was to come up with a reason that (as MrJJ so beautifully put it) does not challenge the common sense.

It's not that simple. Unity might not be the best shell that could be made but if you compare it with GnomeShell, Modern UI or Apple desktop PC i think it has a shot. Compiz was ditched by all mayor distros and we Ubuntu users could enjoy Compiz few more years and i can't hold that against Canonical (some most surely do and their alternative most often fall short for my taste and needs). It looks like Compiz will not be ported to Wayland and Unity Next will probably not use it anymore that probably is true but main Compiz developer said clearly Canonical did not break Compiz in any way to make it less compatible with other distros and to be honest majority of other distros ditched Compiz a while back.

Stuff like Ubuntu TV who else is competing or trying to compete in this area with GNU/Linux? About systemd i think ATM a lot of users has an (strong) opinion on the matter but if you would ask the same users to give some facts how this decision is affecting their lives they would just not know how to answer this question. Probably something like i want faster boot time. Well Ubuntu boots pretty darn fast! Lightdm looks like it does the job just fine and today i showed one of my friends how the background image at login screen/prompt changes switching the users and i got positive feedback...

About Mir i think it's too soon to judge. First we have to start using it then we will be able to judge. But if it will turn out the way Lightdm, Unity (with Compiz), boot time with upstart... Then i guess it won't turn out too bad? But sure some will say thing like Mutter is lighter but does it have control panel? That thing i like to use with Compiz yes and i don't care if other don't like it i do.

We will just have to wait and see. It's too soon to judge ATM and i think the real focus should be on drivers model.

[EgoGratis]

And we expect Canonical to provide us TVs, mobile devices and desktop PCs and servers with GNU/Linux don't we? There is still a lot to do for Canonical to be able to provide this too us.

When this happens then i think we should judge how good Canonicals does it's job. If it will only be for money or will there be some nice ideals know how built in the products/services we get and we want and yes there is nothing wrong if questions are raised about the path taken to achieve the goal or to judge the goal but i agree the sky isn't falling if Canonical wants to try to built it's own display server a lot of different display servers will probably be made in near future using Wayland protocol for example and things are not that standardized in post Xorg world and that is the main point why Xorg is being replaced it's because interested parties wants more freedom and less of "mandatory rules" that display server enforces. The downside is less consistency but because of that you will be able to do much more and you will still be able to be consistent if you will decide to follow some guidelines on how to achieve consistency.

[cariboo]

I have to wonder, how this will affect Steam on Linux, as the last figures I saw, a pretty significant number of Steam users were running Ubuntu. In the short time the service has been available Linux usage has almost caught up to those using OSX.

[EgoGratis]

If Ubuntu will be used on Valve game console then i guess we will just have to wait and see what display server will be chosen by Valve, hardware (driver) makers and Ubuntu and why.

P.S. But let's say it will turn out great and to be something rather in favor of open than closed and let's say it's a success story. That would bring millions of users to Linux and a bunch of new developers too!

[ventrical]

I see nothing wrong with Canonical/Ubuntu wanting to develop their own display server, if Wayland development was where Ubuntu expected it to be by this time, we'd all be testing it now, but as it is, it is just a curiosity that some of us play with and discard, as it really isn't ready for everyday usage.




They are still working on getting the windows to minimize and maximize. So even with all that backing I can only ask why all of this is happening so late in the game.


http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMyMjQ

[serdotlinecho]

Working really hard since 2008 :lolflag: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_%28display_server_protocol%29#Background)

[Gyokuro]

In my opionion they feel now more pressure and wayland/weston shows mature engineering (if you check git commits alot of various people sending patches and MIR shows most commits are from @canonical.com) work which I think lets to follwing problem: Ubuntu will go with MIR (if they succed) and the rest of linux projects/distributions with wayland/weston. I would really like to see that MIR get cancelled and following wayland/weston.

[Mr.JJ]

I added emphasis to what I think is the most important point in the quote, as developing something new is the way Ubuntu works.

True. But something new do not always equates to something better. And in canonical's decisions, none of them are any better (technologically or performance wise). As others pointed out, compiz, upstart, unity, etc... Sure they are different, but not any better.


.....if Wayland development was where Ubuntu expected it to be by this time, we'd all be testing it now, but as it is, it is just a curiosity that some of us play with and discard, as it really isn't ready for everyday usage.

How long you think linux kernel took to reach version 1.0? Three long yrs. Even then it had only 1% total no of lines of code (compared to now). Then it took another decade to reach 50% size. If you think there are shortcuts/quick-fixes to wonderful and original pieces of software, then welcome to software engineering.

Adding on to that quick-fix part, recently I see another possibility coming out in the comments. Canonical might be thinking about using the android (patched) kernel and android display servers. So, they do not need any long development and they can use the readily avialable drivers etc. Considering their work in ubuntu for android (It was also around the same time they stopped working on wayland) and their history, I see that as a very possible solution.

[Mr.JJ]

They are still working on getting the windows to minimize and maximize. So even with all that backing I can only ask why all of this is happening so late in the game.
From that comment alone, I know that you do not have any experience at all in software development.

It is not difficult (and do not take much time) to add a feature like that. What takes time and is difficult is to decide on what to implement and how to implement that; creating the standards. I can write thousands of lines of code in a single day, working code. But that will not be good code- extendable, scalable, adaptable code.

In one person projects they are creating applications in a day or two but only that developer can work on it and it cannot use, say a different toolkit etc. That is fine at the app level. But at the low level, and when creating standards it is important to consider various use cases and get everyone agree on the solutions. This is no flat development structure. As I said above, there are no quick-fixes for original quality software.

Say, in car manufacturing what takes time is to decide/finalise the design. The actual development in itself is not difficult or time consuming. The performance etc is directly related to the effort that is went into the design. I can use old engines and spare parts from different manufactures and make a car; for personal use. But if I expect it to be the largest selling/best performing car in the world, I am being stupid.

[Stinger]

@ cariboo907
I like the article you linked to, I read it a couple of times now.
Ubuntu Mir: Is This the Future of Linux Everywhere? (http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/03/ubuntu-mir/)
It raises a couple of questions though in the sense of why is Canonical trying to 'reinvent the wheel' with projects like MIR (and Unity) ?
The answer that springs into mind is control. Canonical want's to control it's projects.

That's necessary and maybe OK from a business point of view but it leaves us users without any influence because, to quote from the article:

Rather than working out in the open and accepting feedback on message boards — or code contributions through a system like Github — Canonical chose to work in secret, allowing only its inner circle to contribute. Some call this approach “throwing code over the wall.” It’s another sign that Canonical wants greater control over its open source projects.

Take MIR as an example, why didn't Canonical try to influence and turn wayland in the direction they wanted it to be ? IMO because Canonical can't control Wayland

Unity as another, why didn't Canonical try to 'bend' Gnome Shell the way they wanted ? IMO because they can't control the Gnome project (still presenting a challenge, remember Nautilus 3.6 :-\")
Gnome 3.8 components doesn't fit Unity and UGR will have to release yet another 'stable' Gnome 3.6 version because, like me, the UGR developers have no control.

As Ubuntu user, I care.
I care about the Ubuntu community, that's why I haven't left yet and still try to influence the Ubuntu development.

'We will just have to wait and see what MIR will bring' EgoGratis said, and I'm afraid that's all we can do, because as community user I feel I have lost my influence. Here is another quote from the article:

Canonical’s decision to keep development of Ubuntu 13.04 closed (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1200) was also controversial. Although by releasing its code under a GPL license, Ubuntu remains open source by the Open Source Initiative’s definition, it violates the spirit of openness and transparency.
I couldn't have said it better myself, Canonical 'violates the spirit of openness and transparency' and I might add 'makes me feel I have lost my influence as user'.

[ventrical]

From that comment alone, I know that you do not have any experience at all in software development.

That's a really cheap presumption on your part and Iv'e considered the source.




It is not difficult (and do not take much time) to add a feature like that. What takes time and is difficult is to decide on what to implement and how to implement that; creating the standards. I can write thousands of lines of code in a single day, working code. But that will not be good code- extendable, scalable, adaptable code.

In one person projects they are creating applications in a day or two but only that developer can work on it and it cannot use, say a different toolkit etc. That is fine at the app level. But at the low level, and when creating standards it is important to consider various use cases and get everyone agree on the solutions. This is no flat development structure. As I said above, there are no quick-fixes for original quality software.

Say, in car manufacturing what takes time is to decide/finalise the design. The actual development in itself is not difficult or time consuming. The performance etc is directly related to the effort that is went into the design. I can use old engines and spare parts from different manufactures and make a car; for personal use. But if I expect it to be the largest selling/best performing car in the world, I am being stupid.

You are obsfucating the issue again. Wayland is a choice as MIR is a choice. Nobody (or certainly suggested in the topic content) is forcing you to test MIR or even consider it. Please do likewise and allow some of us beta testers to see what MIR is all about. We're not cramming MIR down your throat, please don't cram wayland down ours.

[EgoGratis]

They are still working on getting the windows to minimize and maximize. So even with all that backing I can only ask why all of this is happening so late in the game.


http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMyMjQ

I wouldn't underestimate Wayland this way it's still going to happen and probably it will still be huge and a lot of work was already done.


As others pointed out, compiz, upstart, unity, etc... Sure they are different, but not any better.

And not any worse from average user expectations. I bet a lot of desktop users will miss Compiz for example when it will be retired from all main distros. I would miss Unity too to be honest if it would stop being produced.


Take MIR as an example, why didn't Canonical try to influence and turn wayland in the direction they wanted it to be ? IMO because Canonical can't control Wayland

Unity as another, why didn't Canonical try to 'bend' Gnome Shell the way they wanted ? IMO because they can't control the Gnome project (still presenting a challenge, remember Nautilus 3.6 :-\")
Gnome 3.8 components doesn't fit Unity and UGR will have to release yet another 'stable' Gnome 3.6 version because, like me, the UGR developers have no control.

Probably Canonical does gain value if it holds (copyright) vital components of it's products and there is grater influence that Canonical can impose there is no point in arguing that. But to be honest if in few years time Wayland proves to be the way to go i do believe current Canonical would switch back.

GnomeShell probably couldn't be bended in a way it would be current Unity. Changes would probably have be too big and to hard to maintain. ATM i think Canonical is in the phase when it want's to build something fast and to see if there will be results an as company probably there is more (potential) value in your products doing it like this. But i would not exaggerate ATM because GNU/Linux it's still barely represented in consumer market and for example Canonical using Qt is still indication they are after best FOSS available in the market ATM.

Different FOSS upstreams and community built around them currently do need to revalidate their position and future stance where and how they want to take FOSS and how does Ubuntu fit in all of this. There is nothing wrong with that. I hope common grounds could be something like to deliver FOSS (GNU/Linux and it's ecosystem) to 10x users install base we have ATM in consumer market place in let's say less then 5 years! ;)

[ventrical]

@ cariboo907
I like the article you linked to, I read it a couple of times now.
Ubuntu Mir: Is This the Future of Linux Everywhere? (http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/03/ubuntu-mir/)
It raises a couple of questions though in the sense of why is Canonical trying to 'reinvent the wheel' with projects like MIR (and Unity) ?
The answer that springs into mind is control. Canonical want's to control it's projects.

That's necessary and maybe OK from a business point of view but it leaves us users without any influence because, to quote from the article:


Take MIR as an example, why didn't Canonical try to influence and turn wayland in the direction they wanted it to be ? IMO because Canonical can't control Wayland

Unity as another, why didn't Canonical try to 'bend' Gnome Shell the way they wanted ? IMO because they can't control the Gnome project (still presenting a challenge, remember Nautilus 3.6 :-\")
Gnome 3.8 components doesn't fit Unity and UGR will have to release yet another 'stable' Gnome 3.6 version because, like me, the UGR developers have no control.

As Ubuntu user, I care.
I care about the Ubuntu community, that's why I haven't left yet and still try to influence the Ubuntu development.

'We will just have to wait and see what MIR will bring' EgoGratis said, and I'm afraid that's all we can do, because as community user I feel I have lost my influence. Here is another quote from the article:

I couldn't have said it better myself, Canonical 'violates the spirit of openness and transparency' and I might add 'makes me feel I have lost my influence as user'.


Obviously there were some serious security issues with wayland. I think it is a wise thing to have more control over the display server because this way there is more control over possible security leaks. Ubuntu is attractive, not only to FOSS, Ubuntu and it's clients, but also to hackers looking to cause some chaos. I think it is a smart move all around ... lest we have to be fitted with some reasonable facsimile of an AVG or Comodo guard.

[ventrical]

I wouldn't underestimate Wayland this way it's still going to happen and probably it will still be huge and a lot of work was already done.


With all due respect , I never, ever underestimated wayland! I was apporoached about it, I studied it, I beta tested it, I ran all the tests others were testing .. and then it did nothing forsome long period of time. While testing Precise and Quantal we had other segments to test other than wayland. Are we at fault *here* because of our non-testingness of wayland!? Now we have MIR to chomp away. :) You guys .. go ahead and run, test , bellyache and incorporate wayland into your systems(or you could always convert over to Mint). I'm going to have fun busting my systems with MIR !:)

[EgoGratis]

Obviously there were some serious security issues with wayland.

No.

And i will end the debate in this thread with this thought. Ubuntu was upfront and transparent as one could get for few years now already and upstreams are not the only one to blame on why Ubuntu hasn't gain more install base in consumer market place but i do believe Canonical would give back more control of the direction Ubuntu is going to usptreams in areas where it was decided to do things differently if upstreams would find a viable solution on how to achieve let's say 10x install base of GNU/Linux and it's ecosystem in few years time. If usptreams are not that interested in achieving this goal then it's quite obvious why Ubuntu is going in the direction it's currently going.

[ventrical]

No.

And i will end the debate in this thread with this thought. Ubuntu was upfront and transparent as one could get for few years now already and upstreams are not the only one to blame on why Ubuntu hasn't gain more install base in consumer market place but i do believe Canonical would give back more control of the direction Ubuntu is going to usptreams in areas where it was decided to do things differently if upstreams would find a viable solution on how to achieve let's say 10x install base of GNU/Linux and it's ecosystem in few years time. If usptreams are not that interested in achieving this goal then it's quite obvious why Ubuntu is going in the direction it's currently going.

And I'll end my debate notes with this thought. Linux , in general, is dependent upon maintanence and people to do that maintanence. That means programmers have to actually *program* code and deliver code on a timely basis. When I first beta tested Linus' kernel in 1995 I could barely get it to create a bootable floppy (and in those days we were using 2400/9600 BAUD modems through FIDO_NET). So ...... we waited .. and waited.. and eventually upgrades would get through (which was totally dependent on the NCs and NECs). The time it took to wait was anything but dynamic. Those were dark days in the desert. I literally forked off elsewhere but always kept Linux in my back pocket. Then , with what Shuttlworth and Canonical has done with Ubuntu, was just a real revolution in the Open Software Concept and it was viable, workable and fixes were produced 'yesterday' as we say in North America. But the bottom line , after all those years was maintanence and Shuttleworth and Co. motivated developers and programmers to put up or shut up. Linux is now hot again , mainly due to Shuttleworth and I for one am grateful that he took up this load on his shoulders.

However .. getting back to being a maintainer and maintanence .. this is not 1995 .. it's 2013 and now .. when the code is not there or delayed for some reason then it becomes a security risk for the rest of the teams and all there is left are excuses.

Kind Regards,

Ventrical

[alphacrucis2]

Obviously there were some serious security issues with wayland.

That isn't correct and if you check the wiki you will find those claims have been retracted.

[ventrical]

That isn't correct and if you check the wiki you will find those claims have been retracted.


Been there .. and I just beg to differ. The progress is not in synconicity with the rest of the program and in that sense it presents a security risk. I appreciate all the passion that those have for wayland , as I did at one time also. I am not trying to cause discension here and if my words have , then I apologize. From what I have observed, I just can't see it and perhaps that has to do with my own biases but I guarentee you that I have tried to look at all of this as I would look at a flowchart or read psuedo_code to the best of my ability. Although the point is moot, and my observations obviously differ with those concepts of others oppossed to my veiws then I stand corrected in the technical nomenclature but I will not conceed my conceptual debate point that wayland , past -current, was a security risk. That apparently being resolved?.. then I really have no standing to add anything furthur .. however , time will tell.

Best Regards

Ventrical




Kind Regards,

ventrical

[Stinger]

Obviously there were some serious security issues with wayland. I think it is a wise thing to have more control over the display server because this way there is more control over possible security leaks.
I tried to search for 'security issues and security leaks' with Wayland but I haven't found anything yet, Can you please tell me where I can read about the 'security issues' with Wayland ?
(All I came up with was this post from Dave Airlie (http://airlied.livejournal.com/#item76828). Ps mind the language ;))

[alphacrucis2]

I tried to search for 'security issues and security leaks' with Wayland but I haven't found anything yet, Can you please tell me where I can read about the 'security issues' with Wayland ?
(All I came up with was this post from Dave Airlie (http://airlied.livejournal.com/#item76828). Ps mind the language ;))

The only place I ever saw it was on the MIR wiki and those claims were retracted as soon as the Wayland devs pointed out that the claims were false.

[serdotlinecho]

Errr, can we focus on mir testing and leave aside the politics? I want to see the progress of Mir in this thread :roll:

[Gyokuro]

To get back on topic - nobody can do something useful with the released code and therefore I will play again with MIR as soon there is code released which brings in functionality to play with. At the moment it is waste of time and it is better to invest time somewhere else.

[zika]

This thread should be split into (at least) two:
1. for those who want/plan to test Mir in its develompment
2. for those who want/plan to discuss should Mir be there or not, etc. ...
Just my .02$
"Give Mir a chance"... ;)

[ventrical]

I tried to search for 'security issues and security leaks' with Wayland but I haven't found anything yet, Can you please tell me where I can read about the 'security issues' with Wayland ?
(All I came up with was this post from Dave Airlie (http://airlied.livejournal.com/#item76828). Ps mind the language ;))

Here's one that has been sitting since September, 2012.


https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/weston/+bug/1058211

[ventrical]

"Give Mir a chance"... ;)

+1

:)

[serdotlinecho]

Why don't somebody start another thread "Who wants to test wayland after 5 years of development"? :-\"

[Stinger]

To anyone interested in the debate regarding MIR / Wayland please follow the debate in the comments on Allan Pope's G+ (https://plus.google.com/109365858706205035322/posts/VBvtLVC531h), even Mark S. is trying to make a point.

[alphacrucis2]

Why don't somebody start another thread "Who wants to test wayland after 5 years of development"? :-\"

libwayland0 is installed in raring by default now and the weston compositor is in the universe repo. Chrome & firefox both work ok via weston and the mesa graphics drivers. Not sure how far away gnome are from getting their shell working with it.

[cariboo]

THis thread has gone so far off topic, that it should actually be in the Cafe. Moved

[montag dp]

To anyone interested in the debate regarding MIR / Wayland please follow the debate in the comments on Allan Pope's G+ (https://plus.google.com/109365858706205035322/posts/VBvtLVC531h), even Mark S. is trying to make a point.Wow, that was an entertaining read. Oh, the drama.

[Stinger]

Yeah you are right 'drama'.
But with Mark S. arguing like that, makes me feel ashamed to be a Ubuntu user :oops:

[forcecore]

I support descision to use universal display server from mobile phones to pc-s to navigation/control ui-s for machines. You must have vision of future.

I do not care about licenses, it just must be open source thats it.

[sffvba[e0rt]

Storm in a tea cup... brings out the flavour.


404

[Stinger]

Storm in a tea cup... brings out the flavour.
If you are going to turn this into a game of proverbs, I'd rather say:

"The straw that broke the camel's back"

[Dry Lips]

To anyone interested in the debate regarding MIR / Wayland please follow the debate in the comments on Allan Pope's G+ (https://plus.google.com/109365858706205035322/posts/VBvtLVC531h), even Mark S. is trying to make a point.


I think Luis de Bethencourt made a very good point!

[mips]

To anyone interested in the debate regarding MIR / Wayland please follow the debate in the comments on Allan Pope's G+ (https://plus.google.com/109365858706205035322/posts/VBvtLVC531h), even Mark S. is trying to make a point.

Sounds more like he has his tinfoil hat on and wagging his finger.

[Stinger]

Sounds more like he has his tinfoil hat on and wagging his finger.
The debate just got a whole new dimension, :biggrin: thanks.

[Frogs Hair]

Back to MIR , it doesn't sound like there is a debate . I have learned to wait and see when it comes to announcements so I don't get over passionate about that which may never come to be. I remember the Gnome Shell as a possibility on 10.10 .

=== Mir + Unity QML + Unity APIs = Unity ===

Olli Ries, Engineering Director for Unity and Display Server at
Canonical, announces and shares some insights about the Mir display
server and Unity QML. According to what Ries calls their ambitious
goal, Unity will transition back to Qt/QML, and Mir will replace
Xserver in 2013.

http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/03/04/mir-unity-qml-unity-apis-unity/

[Stinger]

@ Frogs Hair
I read the page you linked to, but I really can't find head or tails in it ?
There is no reason, technical or otherwise, that the ubuntu developers have come up with that justifies MIR other than control.
Remember that, as Mr.JJ pointed out earlier on this thread:


We are talking about the lower end of the stack here. At shell/app level you can have as much control/forks as you need; no probs. But at the lower end, it is essentially breaking the entire ecosystem.
This could cause a lot of harm to the whole Linux community.

Here is a Quote taken from Christopher Halse Rogers G+ (https://plus.google.com/113883146362955330174/posts/PXc93m8nKwk). Please take the time to follow the debate in the comments too !

This is only possible because all the ancillary work done by Wayland developers, particularly Kristian. Mir is a Wayland-alike; we're piggybacking on a lot of good work done for Wayland. Hopefully we'll contribute back not just an awesome display server in the form of Mir and an awesome desktop environment in the form of Unity
Wrong !! Even Christopher Halse Rogers thinks that Unity is a DE.
Unity...... Is it a bird, is it a plane, no it's......
Well I known what it's not, a DE. Unity is only a shell like Gnome-Shell.
Unity relies heavily on Gnome components to be a DE. You can say that Ubuntu is piggybacking on a lot of good work done by the Gnome developers.
Why is Ubuntu not producing it's own DE ?
Will the developers replace the Gnome components with the matching ones from KDE or what, now that the future framework for Unity will be Qt/QML ?
Where is the master plan for the desktop in all this mess ??

Furthermore, if "Mir is a Wayland-alike" and the MIR developers are "piggybacking on a lot of good work done for Wayland" they should have stayed with Wayland, joined forces with the Wayland developers, bend it to meet Ubuntu's needs instead of piggybacking and try to reinvent the wheel.

No, the point here is gaining control, and the way Canonical is doing it, can cause a lot of harm to the Linux community.

[mr john]

I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill here. It seems the whole thing is about egos and control. Show's how pathetic some developers can be.Write the software, and if it works well we'll keep using it. Stop tearing at each others throats and do some programming.

[Stinger]

@ mr john
You are entitled to do your own reasoning, but that doesn't change the facts.

About Mir

Just a quick notice. Mir isn’t like a fragmentation between a package manager or a toolkit. Mir brings fragmentation in the very low level of Linux Desktop and in the part that Linux hurts most; Graphics stack, including Mesa, Drivers and Hardware Manufacturers.
Ps. Are you in a position where you can tell developers what to do and what to not ?

[moma]

Yes. I want Mir windowing system to my computers.
I hope Wayland/Weston and Mir will some day join together.

[EgoGratis]

Looks like Mir is on the right track:

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/GNOME-plans-to-promote-Wayland-port-1821991.html

P.S. Everybody was comfortable to talk about supporting Wayland but not much was done and it looks like Mir did speed up things and that is a good thing!

[Stinger]

@ EgoGratis
You have point there, Mir actually did some good too, maybe indirectly but still, I never saw it that way ;)
I read it earlier on worldofgnome.org Working on a bigger proposal (http://worldofgnome.org/working-on-a-bigger-proposal/)

After Canonical’s announcement to abandon Wayland as an X Server replacement and build their very own display server (Mir) it was the time of GNOME Foundation to make their move and fast-forward their plans for GNOME in Wayland.

This is nothing but an early proposal, but from Matthias Clasen and that counts a lot :)

[montag dp]

That would definitely be a good outcome. Hopefully in the end the Linux world will end up with one standard replacement for X. If Mir speeds that process along, that's a good thing.

[deadflowr]

That would definitely be a good outcome. Hopefully in the end the Linux world will end up with one standard replacement for X. If Mir speeds that process along, that's a good thing.

You mean like how there's a standard desktop?

The real problem with Wayland is they have too many X developers working on it.

[montag dp]

You mean like how there's a standard desktop?

The real problem with Wayland is they have too many X developers working on it.I mean like how right now there's a standard display server. I'd prefer not to have additional fragmentation when there's no benefit to it. In the case of desktops, people have their preferences so at least in that way it's good that there are multiple options.

[Stinger]

Storm in a tea cup... brings out the flavour.
Got another proverb for ya regarding the situation Mir, Unity, Ubuntu TV, Ubuntu for Android (you can continue)

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

[Virtuality314]

I hope that Canonical is not spending 100s of 1000s of $$ without a good outcome. If Mir fails then...I will be annoyed.

Did I mention that in my native language, Mir means death.

[tartalo]

I hope that Canonical is not spending 100s of 1000s of $$ without a good outcome. If Mir fails then...I will be annoyed.

Canonical is indeed going to spend lots of money on their envisioned system, of which Mir is just one piece. And that's because Ubuntu has already failed.

It's not a failure for users, it didn't become the most popular distro for no reason, but it has failed to be a profitable investment for Canonical.

What's coming is not Ubuntu as we know it, and contributing to the Linux ecosystem is not a priority, if it ever was, Canonical being profitable is.

To achieve that Ubuntu has given it's back to the Linux ecosystem's plans, and in response KDE, Gnome, and Enlightenment have their given back to Ubuntu's plans too, but although these moves might have surprised many of us, that was hardly unexpected for Canonical, they did expect it and they have been developing the most basic programs for their new system too (calculator, rss reader...).

The new Ubuntu will be Linux as Android or Tizen are Linux, not as Debian or Fedora are.

And while I'm already waving good bye to the Ubuntu I knew and liked for my PC, I hope they manage to make a dent in a market where currently Android is the least bad option.

But making Debian more user friendly and writing a whole mobile OS are different beasts, and if we leave brand recognition aside, there are much better positioned alternatives.