Amazon, Ubuntu, and ethical standards

[stefangr1]

I'm quite surprized by all the fuss about the Amazon ethical standards scandal. According to this ARD documentary (http://www.ardmediathek.de/das-erste/reportage-dokumentation/ausgeliefert-leiharbeiter-bei-amazon?documentId=13402260) (in German), there are massive human right violations going on in Amazon's German distribution centers. Apparently, they even hire a security firm with ties to National-Socialist organizations, whereby convicted Neonazi's in their army boots and Right-extremist brand Bomber jacks are intimidating temporary workers.

While I was already somewhat worried about the privacy issues surrounding the Ubuntu Amazon deal, sending all this privacy sensitive information to an organization with such low ethical standards does seem to put things into a different light.

Are there any efforts from the Ubuntu community to pressure Canonical to get some other means to finance itself other than to sell the privacy of it's users to an organization that is openly engaged in activities related to human right violations?

It seems very odd for 'Linux for human beings' to be partially financed by an organization that depends on neonazi's to prevent their employees from standing up against practices that have been classified by (quality) newspapers such as the Frankfürter Allgemeine Zeitung as 'slavory and inhumane'...

[tartalo]

Amazon has reacted to the documentary by firing the firm:
http://world.time.com/2013/02/19/amazon-fires-neo-nazi-security-firm-at-german-facilities/

However, this does not really change the fact that Ubuntu is now sending by default private searches to third parties that might or might not follow the ethic guidelines that Canonical has usually followed.

[stefangr1]

Furthermore, they fired the company only after hiring the neonazi's started to attract widespread media attention, and in light of all the other misconduct as well as the (in Germany well known) haircut, clothing brands, and tatoes worn by the security personel it seems unlikely that they didn't knew before. Not that I think they hired them for ideological reasons, probably just because they were efficient in what Amazon wanted them to do. But still it seems sort of illustrative for what this company is willing to do to make money.

Actually, things at Amazon seems to have gotten so far out of hand that the Frankfürter Allgemeine Zeitung even has made a special theme site (http://www.faz.net/thema/Amazon.com) devoted to all the scandals, which has multiple articles added every day.

So it seems kind of a structural problem...

[neu5eeCh]

I'm quite surprized by all the fuss about the Amazon ethical standards scandal. According to this ARD documentary (http://www.ardmediathek.de/das-erste/reportage-dokumentation/ausgeliefert-leiharbeiter-bei-amazon?documentId=13402260) (in German), there are massive human right violations going on in Amazon's German distribution centers...

I would resist the temptation to draw Ubuntu through the mud because of Amazon's behaviour. Maybe I'm naive but I think Shuttleworth's vision is a good one and well-meaning and that he's entitled to make mistakes just like the rest of us.

[stefangr1]

I would resist the temptation to draw Ubuntu through the mud because of Amazon's behaviour. Maybe I'm naive but I think Shuttleworth's vision is a good one and well-meaning and that he's entitled to make mistakes just like the rest of us.

I don't want to draw anyone trough the mud except for Amazon. Like I said: it cought me completely by surprize. It may sound naive, but during the last years I have ordered something trough Amazon every few weeks. Furthermore, Ubuntu is so much more than Canonical. However, in light of what we know now the whole cooperation seems increasingly odd.

[fontis]

Well.. I've never been a fan of the idea of the direction Shuttleworth seems to be aiming with this..

And yes, although it is (for now) quite simple to circumvent it, I just wish it wasn't a necessary thing to do.

[tartalo]

I would resist the temptation to draw Ubuntu through the mud because of Amazon's behaviour. Maybe I'm naive but I think Shuttleworth's vision is a good one and well-meaning and that he's entitled to make mistakes just like the rest of us.

Absolutely, a distinction must be made, but the Amazon issue exemplifies why the concerns about privacy should not be belittled.

Linux has traditionally been a security and privacy refuge, and for years I have strongly recommended Ubuntu as such.

But this is not the case anymore, and the warnings issued, not only by individual users, but also by the Free Software Foundation and the Electronic Frontier Foundation have been ignored until now, and Ubuntu keeps the feature as opt-out, not opt-in.

I understand that Canonical needs to make money, but at what price? I don't feel comfortable recommending Ubuntu lately.

Richard Stallman might sound like an extremist when he anticipates problems, but dammit, sadly he is right more often than not.

[mörgæs]

Just a brief note to let you all know that we are following the thread.

The topic is relevant for debate. Let's keep it sober.

[kevdog]

Come on guys. To hold Canonical for a sin of one of their partners? Thats kind of a stretch. Although it looks bad on the surface, I approach it from the perspective from where I work. We buy a lot of supplies from multiple vendors. Unforntunately I don't do google searches on the business practices of these businesses. If they deliver the product I'm usually happy. If I became aware of a practice like this, I probably would order from a different vendor. This strategy is reactive, but I don't have the time to research every company --- for example for human rights violations abroad -- I do business with.

[neu5eeCh]

Linux has traditionally been a security and privacy refuge, and for years I have strongly recommended Ubuntu as such.

But this is not the case anymore, and the warnings issued, not only by individual users, but also by the Free Software Foundation and the Electronic Frontier Foundation have been ignored until now, and Ubuntu keeps the feature as opt-out, not opt-in.

Linux still is. There are lots of Linux distros that are not Ubuntu. If you feel like Ubuntu isn't the refuge it used to be, don't use it and don't recommend it, or recommend an Ubuntu distro that doesn't use Unity. As for Shuttleworth's ethical standards, I'm just not seeing the problem. Jono Bacon, of Canonical offered a fairly robust and forceful response (http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/12/07/on-richard-stallman-and-ubuntu/) to Stallman, calling Stallman's claims FUD.

[Bucky Ball]

Just a brief note to let you all know that we are following the thread.

The topic is relevant for debate. Let's keep it sober.

+1. Neonazis? Uncalled for, unsubstantiated and unecessary. Interesting discussion, no need to drag it into fantasy and heresay ...

May I remind all, from the Code of Conduct which we all agreed to on becoming users of this forum:


Politics and Religion: These two topics have caused serious problems in the past and are now forbidden topics in the forums. Please find another venue to exercise your freedom of speech on these topics.

Throwing about ideas of neonazism is skirting the boundaries and could also be considered offensive for some users. This is an international forum catering for all ages, religions and cultural backgrounds. Thanks.

[stefangr1]

+1. Neonazis? Uncalled for, unsubstantiated and unecessary. Interesting discussion, no need to drag it into fantasy and heresay ...

I'm actually from a country bordering Germany and I very much respect Germans and German culture. In fact, I visit that country about every month mostly for recreation and live only 35min driving from the Dutch-German border.

This topic is not about politics, and I see no reason why it would/could turn into one, as I'm not seriously considering the possibility that any advocates of the things Amazon is accused of will turn up in this thread. It's about ethical standards.

Sadly, the thing about hiring Neonazi's was meant literally: Amazon has hired convicted neonazi's as security personel, and that's part of what the scandal is all about. It has nothing to do with heresay, there even has been a one hour debate of the German parliament yesterday on human right violations by Amazon in Germany and the documentary I mentioned in my OP. ARD is by the way one of the most conservative channels in Germany, they don't usually exagurate things just to get some viewers. Also, like I mentioned earlier, there is a theme page (http://www.faz.net/thema/Amazon.com) devoted to misconduct by Amazon on the website of the Frankfürter Allgemeine Zeitung, which is like the New York Times in the United States.

While I fully agree that Ubuntu has nothing to do with - and bears no responsibility whatsoever for - what Amazon does (of course not!), it is my opinion that it if you share privacy sensitive information with third parties (which I don't reject in principle, I even left the Amazon search function on in the hope that my buys would somehow help Ubuntu), it does matter a lot to me that this privacy sensitive information is in the hands of an organization with some sort of ethical standards. Because otherwise their word, which is that they won't do anything harmful with the provided data, has little value.

I'm heavily disappointed in Amazon, and I hope Ubuntu and Canonical are as well and will draw a line here.

[Umbra Diaboli]

TBH, I've got nothng to hide.

They can sell whatever private info they want.

Infact, I don't even use my real credentials on my Ubuntu.

[MadmanRB]

TBH, I've got nothng to hide.

They can sell whatever private info they want.

Infact, I don't even use my real credentials on my Ubuntu.

would not matter anyway as once again:

you can turn off amazon searches in the privacy settings in 12.10 or 13.04.