Just a random feeling about Linux

[Griffrez]

Hello community!

I'd like to start by saying that I do not hate Linux, or anything like that. I actually admire it a lot. And I've always wanted to fully "port" myself to Linux, but, I've always felt things difficult for me, the main reason, being, the same that many others have, games.

With this, it makes me really excited that Valve is working tons to port games from Steam to Linux. I see great future for Valve AND the Linux Community.

Another issue I've always had is that, every time you have a random technical difficulty, by how minor it might be, most of the time, you have to make a considerable amount of research, and deploy a considerable amount of command lines, for example. I'm not saying it's always like that, but I always felt Linux having this problem.

I've tried Linux (particularly Ubuntu, that's why I am here.) several times. I've came back and forth, from Windows and Linux, trying to understand Linux, trying to make or do on Linux, everything I do on Windows.

I know this is probably a bottomless pit of argumentation, but, I don't know, I just felt like coming here, speaking myself out, and see if you guys got anything to say. Again, I didn't come to flame Linux or the Linux Community. I really do want Linux to grow, and become more capable and strong with time.

If you guys got any... technique or can teach me some habit for me to get more engaged into "learning" the Linux platform, I'd be really happy to hear such a tip. I know gaming isn't something that be fixed that easily. Wine and such do a good job, but, it either comes to my second problem, of needing to do a lot of research to get it to work, or doesn't work at all. (Okay, to be fair, many applications probably work fine without much work, but I'm just spelling out my feelings toward the subject.)

Anyway, sorry for the long post. I do try to explain myself as well as I can. If you people got any friendly thing to say, I'll be ready to hear such thing.

In advance, thank you.

[TheFu]

Linux is not Windows. The design philosophies are extremely different. Trying to do things on Linux exactly the same way is a recipe for failure AND massive amounts of frustration.

A thought shift is needed to be a happy Linux/UNIX user. I've tried to explain it here:
http://blog.jdpfu.com/2012/02/15/beginning-linux-thought-shift-needed

Also, please do not confuse the GUI interface as either Ubuntu or Linux. The GUI most definitely is just another program and has very little to do with how well Linux can perform tasks. There are 20-100 different GUI layers for Ubuntu. No need to only use Unity if you don't like it or it doesn't work well with your specific needs.

If you learn 1 GUI and it changes, you are screwed. I learn the shell/CLI terminal 20+ yrs ago and it is just about the same ... except I am 1000x more efficient with it now. It wasn't easy, but it is very rewarding, just like learning any new language is rewarding.

If you really want to learn Linux, stop using anything else. Only use Linux. Struggle to learn new ways. Google will help too. A book on power shell scripting will help. A book on Linux for dummies will help, but in all these cases, you must do the work. Ubuntu Desktop is too easy, IMHO. If you really want to learn Linux, distributions that are not as friendly will force you to learn things that the pretty GUI in Ubuntu hides.

Learning the linux way will take time and effort. It is like learning a new language.
Almost every command has a manual page automatically installed which explains exactly how to use it. man is the command. I remember when I first started trying to learn UNIX and was told the RTFM constantly. This was the way of the older guys to tell me that I hadn't done my homework by reading the man page first. They were busy and didn't have time to teach me everything that is already in the man pages. These days telling someone to RTFM doesn't go over well, but we cannot possibly feed you everything you need to know to make Linux sing.

There is much wisdom in the man pages. man man will teach how to use them, search them, understand them. After man man, try man sudo - why is it in section 8 of the man pages?

[mamamia88]

The thing I love about linux is that you can spend as much time or as little time in the cli as you wish. And doing research to get it to work is entirely dependent on your hardware circumstances/what kind of a task you are trying to complete. For example I expect to have to do research to setup android sdk or ssh but if my hardware is supported i expect it to work out of the box which i've been lucky enough to have that happen. But you should still research anyway before doing anything that could break your system

[Erik1984]

Dual boot. That's what I have to say. Windows and Linux are different systems. There are simply a lot of Windows/OSX only programs and games that will never run on Linux. Use Windows for those things when you need them, use Linux for everything else.

[stinkeye]

My tip would be to dual boot and and just learn linux at your own pace.
It takes time, but no longer than it took you to learn Windows.
Most of us here use/used windows.

I wouldn't even worry about wine.
If there is a must have windows application just run it in windows.
As time goes by you may find a Linux replacement or it may not be such a must have app.

...and don't be afraid of the terminal. With a bit of understanding you'll
find it's one of the best parts about linux.

If you find Linux is not for you, fair enough...just keep using windows.

[sdowney717]

Look at the many thousands of help questions about windows, for example these posted at http://www.sevenforums.com/

Windows also gives lots of grief to their end users.

[iamkuriouspurpleoranj]

I would dual-boot for a short period but until you mono-boot Linux, you won't see that Linux is just computing and no more complex than Windows. In fact, the few times I've used Windows since, I feel quite lost.

[MadmanRB]

Dual booting is a good option and if you really fully cant grasp how to use ubuntu, use linux mint.

[GameX2]

I also did that shift like every user did, I started from the very beggining when I knew nothing about Linux, on Ubuntu 11.04.
I started by download softwares only for the Software Center, then I finally ditched it (Excellent for begginners) and moved to Synaptic and Terminal only.

Linux is not Windows, but when you accept this, you realise you're really in control of doing things the way you prefer. Possibilities are nearly endless.
Linux can also be frustrating (VERY frustrating), for sure. You know, when Windows screwed up your partition table, you manage to restore Linux and GRUB settings after a real pain, only to find out that Ubuntu would merely refuse to mount your USB and flash drives.. Time for another reinstallation (Don't have the competences to fix this).

Now, Ubuntu is back and running like a dream. :D
It does have a few disadvantages, but also have a TON of advantages.

I still dual-boot, because I can't live without my Adobe softwares as a student. Windows XP Virtual machine on Ubuntu is an awesome way to do this, but I can't use Premiere and AfterEffect that way.

[forrestcupp]

Like mamamia was saying, the key is to have hardware that Linux supports well. If you have a computer with hardware that is supported, it's a totally different experience. Everything works out of the box, and you pretty much never have to use the command line, unless you just want to.

[kevdog]

I guess my question is "why do you want to use Linux anyway"? Honestly it sounds like Windows does everything you want it to do!! So why switch? I like windows a lot. It has a lot of useful programs that I'm very familiar with. Despite what everybody says about the security problems with windows, it works very well for me.

I also really like Linux too!! It does things that I can't do in Linux -- ssh servers, rsync, vpn, cron backups and automation, and it provides me a real opportunity to tinker. I've learned a ton about computer security, firewalls, system configuration, etc. There was a reason however I came to use Ubuntu (and now Arch linux). I was looking for solutions that Windows couldn't offer for my needs. Sure learning to use Linux was a pain (vi -- enough said), but I was always motivated because I had a goal in mind. If you don't have a specific goal for Linux, why switch to it?

Just my 2 cents.

[Bucky Ball]

My tip would be to dual boot and and just learn linux at your own pace.

+1. The other option is to run Windows as a virtual machine inside Ubuntu using VirtualBox so you don't need to flip back and forth or reboot, or use Ubuntu as a virtual machine in Windows for the same reason.

With the requirements you outline (specifically gaming) I doubt you'll ever be able to do everything you do in Windows in Ubuntu so I wouldn't bother trying. ;)

Yes, there's a learning curve with Linux but if you are clear about what you need your machine to do, after the initial research and the machine is set up and working the way you like, there should be little else to bother about in future.


... I was always motivated because I had a goal in mind. If you don't have a specific goal for Linux, why switch to it?

Just my 2 cents.

Extremely valid point and related to having a clear picture of what you want/need your Linux box to do.

[mike acker]

Hello community!

{snip}
Anyway, sorry for the long post. I do try to explain myself as well as I can. If you people got any friendly thing to say, I'll be ready to hear such thing.

In advance, thank you.

the first thing to do is to read the following: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/22/security_report_windows_vs_linux/

the essay is a bit dated but nonetheless relevant .

one should also read the stickies about AV software in our Security Section. Currently hackers produce "polymorphic" virus codes. these are obfuscated such that A/V software does not detect the virus . generally a VM system with a stack of Windows computers -- each running a different AV pack -- is used to test the obfuscation.

the obfuscated virus is then certified not detectable and sold in kit form on the Dark Net

IMHO this renders signature based AV obsolete . it also implies that behavior based av defense is now a minimum requirement.

one might consider installing AppLocker or some kind of NO UPDATE policy for Windows systems and this would be a good idea

but read carefully the notes in the article above about Remote Procedure Calls . and Linux "User Land" . read between the lines . if the code for a RPC is executing in kernel mode and activated via RPC what does this imply ? the code for the RPC has to be virus proof.

Adobe is releasing emergency patches for Flash. Again .

Does anybody get this ?

I've been working on my Nix box since Oct. last year and have found good Nix programs for most of what I need

The new release of LibreOffice 4.0 is a HUGE ++ for us . we are testing docx and xlsx compatibility but so far things look a lot better .

[mike acker]

I cannot recommend dual boot under any circumstances: windows may have acquired a Master Boot Record virus that installs a root kit . this might or might not affect a Linux system . *

I would consider trying Wine

or better yet call NewEgg Supply Co.
just abandon that Windows box and build you a 'Nix box

~~~~~

* each partition might have its own MBR which would help make this a safer option . hopefully we will get a response about this here

[mamamia88]

I cannot recommend dual boot under any circumstances: windows may have acquired a Master Boot Record virus that installs a root kit . this might or might not affect a Linux system . *

I would consider trying Wine

or better yet call NewEgg Supply Co.
just abandon that Windows box and build you a 'Nix box

~~~~~

* each partition might have its own MBR which would help make this a safer option . hopefully we will get a response about this here
Oh please life is too short to be afraid of stuff that probably won't happen. Use what works best for you just use common sense no matter what is you use.

[llanitedave]

Linux is not Windows. The design philosophies are extremely different. Trying to do things on Linux exactly the same way is a recipe for failure AND massive amounts of frustration.

A thought shift is needed to be a happy Linux/UNIX user. I've tried to explain it here:
http://blog.jdpfu.com/2012/02/15/beginning-linux-thought-shift-needed

Also, please do not confuse the GUI interface as either Ubuntu or Linux. The GUI most definitely is just another program and has very little to do with how well Linux can perform tasks. There are 20-100 different GUI layers for Ubuntu. No need to only use Unity if you don't like it or it doesn't work well with your specific needs.

If you learn 1 GUI and it changes, you are screwed. I learn the shell/CLI terminal 20+ yrs ago and it is just about the same ... except I am 1000x more efficient with it now. It wasn't easy, but it is very rewarding, just like learning any new language is rewarding.

If you really want to learn Linux, stop using anything else. Only use Linux. Struggle to learn new ways. Google will help too. A book on power shell scripting will help. A book on Linux for dummies will help, but in all these cases, you must do the work. Ubuntu Desktop is too easy, IMHO. If you really want to learn Linux, distributions that are not as friendly will force you to learn things that the pretty GUI in Ubuntu hides.

Learning the linux way will take time and effort. It is like learning a new language.
Almost every command has a manual page automatically installed which explains exactly how to use it. man is the command. I remember when I first started trying to learn UNIX and was told the RTFM constantly. This was the way of the older guys to tell me that I hadn't done my homework by reading the man page first. They were busy and didn't have time to teach me everything that is already in the man pages. These days telling someone to RTFM doesn't go over well, but we cannot possibly feed you everything you need to know to make Linux sing.

There is much wisdom in the man pages. man man will teach how to use them, search them, understand them. After man man, try man sudo - why is it in section 8 of the man pages?

With all respect, this is backwards. There's nothing noble about torturing yourself to learn a UI. Computers exist to serve us -- you're writing like the OP should be sacrificing to serve Linux.

First, have a clear idea of why you want to use Linux, and how it will make your life better. Then you can judge whether it is worth the effort for you to learn.

Personally, it has been more than worth the effort for me (although in reality, the effort hasn't been that great considering the hassles that Windows already imposes).

But it really doesn't need to be a painful experience. It's not so much learning a new language as exploring a new environment. But it should be a fun adventure, not a penance.

And there's no deadline, and no obligation.

[Thee]

Remember how it was when you tried to use a computer for the first time?
Now forget everything you know about computers and Windows, and start using your computer for the first time with Linux.

If you do that, everything will make more sense, I promise ;)

[CharlesA]

With all respect, this is backwards. There's nothing noble about torturing yourself to learn a UI. Computers exist to serve us -- you're writing like the OP should be sacrificing to serve Linux.

Is it still torture when your X server decides to die due to a kernel update and you are left sitting at a TTY prompt?

You can learn a GUI, sure, but sometimes it pays to learn the CLI too. I prefer the terminal, but I also run Ubuntu 12.04 with Unity and Fedora 18 with Gnome 3.. so maybe I am just a Gnome fanboi. :p

[llanitedave]

There's nothing wrong with learning the CLI. I recommend that too. (And I'm still learning it, I have a long way to go).

My point is that there's no need to treat it like some sort of heroic quest. Mastering Linux will not rid the world of the Black Gates of Mordor or defeat Steve "Mouth of Sauron" Balmer, so there's no reason to lose the Shire over it.

Treat it as what it is -- a worthwhile and rewarding adventure that may improve your life, not a torturous slog that you must complete in order to prove yourself worthy of valinor.

[iamkuriouspurpleoranj]

With all respect, this is backwards. There's nothing noble about torturing yourself to learn a UI. Computers exist to serve us -- you're writing like the OP should be sacrificing to serve Linux.

First, have a clear idea of why you want to use Linux, and how it will make your life better. Then you can judge whether it is worth the effort for you to learn.

Personally, it has been more than worth the effort for me (although in reality, the effort hasn't been that great considering the hassles that Windows already imposes).

But it really doesn't need to be a painful experience. It's not so much learning a new language as exploring a new environment. But it should be a fun adventure, not a penance.

And there's no deadline, and no obligation.

This is why I feel that if you really want to learn, the best thing is to mono-boot, if only temporarily. You will get used to things much quicker.

It's like moving to a foreign country or another part of the same country: if you cling to your life back home, you will slow down the process of adaptation and will just end up miserable. Don't do it until you want to, though. But equally, don't pussyfoot.

WARNING: If you do want to mono-boot and your PC has a Windows recovery partition, don't wipe it i.e. don't install Ubuntu on top of the whole HDD. That's your key to being able to change your mind and go back in the future if you need to. It's all right to wipe your main Windows partition. If this is gobbledygook to you, you're not ready to mono-boot. This is important because I have had serious issues with drivers when I've attempted to reinstall Windows.

And yes, have a purpose. If I'm 100% on Ubuntu now, it's because I identified it as the perfect tool for my current needs. However, rest assured: when I get rich I'm going to sell out and buy a Mac :-\"

[iamkuriouspurpleoranj]

IT skills are increasingly mainstreamed, so getting your hands dirty with the nitty-gritty isn't the big no-no it once was. In any case, you can do most things in Ubuntu without the terminal.

The reality is simply that many people come to Linux for programming uses, which do require lifting up the hood and rooting around and getting your hands dirty with "words" and "numbers".

[drawkcab]

You need to stick with it; or, don't.

I have fun researching and troubleshooting because, over time, I've learned a lot, not just about Linux, but about computing in general. It was intimidating at first but it's been totally worth the effort.

On the other hand, Linux it'll be a while before a large number of games are available on Steam so maybe it's not worth it for you.

I have two Win7 licenses that I still use now and again although I'm less and less inclined to install/boot Windows these days.

[axel668]

Most of all, it's a matter of mindset.

It's like learning a new language, if you still think in your native tongue and then translate, it will always feel sluggish and inadequate. You have to start THINKING in the new tongue.

Same with Windows and Linux, stop translating, just start doing the things you need or want to do in Linux. In fact there is not much you can't do in Linux these days, and most things will take you 5 minutes max to learn. And yes, most of the time it will involve pasting a command or two into the command line but honestly, is this such a big issue (you DO know Ctrl+Shift+v, right ??)

Actually I think it's much faster than clicking yourself though all these menus and control panel applets of any Windows "Howto", and if you want to do it again later, you can just paste the command snippets into a simple textfile or a wiki.

Don't be afraid of the command line, but embrace it, get used to it, it will make your life much easier !!

[Linuxratty]

Yes, there's a learning curve with Linux but what you forget is there is also a learning curve with Windows.
Thing is,you no longer even remember learning Windows.
Linux is different, but once you have learned the differences, they become the norm and Windows becomes strange.

[TheFu]

With all respect, this is backwards. There's nothing noble about torturing yourself to learn a UI. Computers exist to serve us -- you're writing like the OP should be sacrificing to serve Linux.

First, have a clear idea of why you want to use Linux, and how it will make your life better. Then you can judge whether it is worth the effort for you to learn.
<snip>
And there's no deadline, and no obligation.

I use computers as tools. They make money for me either by getting someone to pay for my help directly or by convincing an employer to hire me. There are many different types of Linux users. I'm the type that expects to earn a living, hence THERE IS A DEADLINE to learn. The quicker I can sell my expertise in some new tech, the more money I'll make. The things that money buy are my real goal. Freedom, travel, not having to work constantly.

I've never seen a Linux server in production that had a GUI, not once. Explaining how to do something using a GUI is cumbersome. Give me copy/paste CLI commands or a script over that EVERY TIME. 100%. I've never worked anywhere where web-based admin was used for server management either.

Sure, if you are a hobbyist playing with computers at home, there isn't a deadline. There is no hurry, but if you hope to earn a good/great living, Linux knowledge can provide that as well. It does require initiative and personal drive.

I've tried to learn new languages multiple times. When I don't have a goal, I always failed to get beyond minimal knowledge. When I do have a goal and a plan, and no way to back out of that plan, I succeed to become fluent. The same things apply with Linux, at least in my experience.

So it comes down to what the OP wants out of this experience. Putzing around with a new OS just for fun or learning with the goal of earning a living from the new skills.

Perhaps asking what his/her goals were for Linux/Ubuntu at the start would have been a good idea, but when I submitted my answer, there were ZERO other replies. Providing the best advice that I could was my goal. I still believe it.

[CharlesA]

I've tried to learn new languages multiple times. When I don't have a goal, I always failed to get beyond minimal knowledge. When I do have a goal and a plan, and no way to back out of that plan, I succeed to become fluent. The same things apply with Linux, at least in my experience.

The same principle applies whenever you try to learn anything. If you set a deadline for yourself, you will be more successful in assimilating the information because you won't keep putting it off.

[fontis]

First of all, re: the whole concept of "It took you time to learn Windows, should take same amount for Linux" is far from true really.

I mean, there might have been SOME value to it back in DOS times but since Windows 95... Windows has pretty much been pretty straight forward. Put it this way. First time I got a GUI version of anything Microsoft was Win95 and I had never used it before and had read no manuals - and I had 0 problems(functionally speaking) using it.

First time I used DOS was a completely different manner, which required me to learn a bunch of commands to work the magic.

First time I used Linux, I jumped onto some early Slackware version and was all confused - even though there were GUI's around.. still was a horrible mess to figure things out. Things are arguably much easier now with all the new DE's but really now - Linux systems are far from "easy to figure out" compared to Windows, or even OSX for that matter.

It doesn't mean Linux is worse, it just means there's a much steeper learning curve because they are fundamentally different.

I would say that the truth is that it's much easier to become a Windows poweruser than it is to become a Linux poweruser.
It's both a testament to the power and freedom you get by using Linux (since you can do so much more compared to Win) but also because Windows is just so incredibly locked down and dumbed down.

For everyday activities, both OS' are equally mature to run and do things on supported hardware. Which is really, all that matters for most people.

[grahammechanical]

What about this point?


I've always felt things difficult for me, the main reason, being, the same that many others have, games.

The games issue has little to do with the OS. It is all to do with the hardware being capable of running the games and the games themselves being ported to Linux.

It is a genuine issue for some people. Not for me, as I do not play games. I must lack the intellectual capacity for it. But for some people it is a valid reason for staying with Windows but it should not be seen as a complaint against Linux. Traditionally, Linux developers are not in it for commercial gain. And that I think would hold back some talented Linux developers from developing games for Linux.

Regards.

[CK000]

I agree with most of what has been said so far. I was recently using an old DOS6 machine to play an old game and found I could remember the commands (even though I have not previously used them since 1996).

In other words once you have learnt the commands for linux you will quite probably remember them when you need them even many years later. I agree that to some considerable extent you need to set a deadline and also to a greater extent it is similar to learning a new language.

So I suggest you simply give linux a chance...

[CharlesA]

I agree with most of what has been said so far. I was recently using an old DOS6 machine to play an old game and found I could remember the commands (even though I have not previously used them since 1996).

Done that, except it was more me trying to run *nix commands on a Windows box, but still!

[TheFu]

Done that, except it was more me trying to run *nix commands on a Windows box, but still!

Heck, I find myself entering 'vi' commands in these windows ALL THE TIME.

ZZ