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NertSkull
January 25th, 2013, 01:42 AM
A friend of mine still in college asked me this today and I thought I'd pose it here since I'm no sociologist.

They said their professor would give them extra credit for a longitude/latitude of a place that is atemporal, a place that lacks time.

I said as far as I know, black holes are the only places that mess with time like that. And clearly a lat/long would imply somewhere on earth.

So, what are we missing? I'm assuming its a weird sociology type of answer that isn't really about physics and time. But what do I know.

What am I missing? Is there actually a place that is lacking time? I mean there are lack of time-zones on the planet (north pole) but a second is still a second there.

lisati
January 25th, 2013, 02:00 AM
It could be a trick question relating to a description of a place or situation where a linkage to other points in time is difficult or impossible.

wewantutopia
January 25th, 2013, 02:20 AM
How about the poles where you are in virtually all time zones at once?

fontis
January 25th, 2013, 02:49 AM
Sounds like he's trying to be funny.
I mean, from a physics point of view what he asks for is impossible.
And if he is asking it from a sociological perspective, its still impossible because you can't give lat/long for what he asks for.

I'd just say... 66.66/66.66

Old_Grey_Wolf
January 25th, 2013, 03:30 AM
My guess...

This is a question about sociology. In sociology, atemporal is not a physical property. In sociology, atemporal is the assumption that the fundamentals of the logic process is assumed to be unchanging over time/history or location.

Edit: I assume the longitude/latitude part of the question is trying to solicit a response that shows an understanding that the sociological use of atemporal has nothing to to with location.

NertSkull
January 25th, 2013, 01:32 PM
Yeah I was wondering something about that. Because I remember from my sociology class talking about how certain things "stand the test of time" and are effectively atemporal.

It was just the part of the long/lat that really threw me. Because he said the question actually says "there are coordinates (longitude/latitude) of a place that is atemporal".

This is why I didn't like sociology.

grahammechanical
January 25th, 2013, 04:24 PM
The students still need to give a latitude and a longitude to get a credit for the course. Latitude and longitude are reference points on the planet Earth. Like time, latitude and longitude do not exist without humans setting the reference points.

I would choose the latitude and longitude of any place on planet Earth without even temporary human inhabitants as being atemporal because time does not exist without an intelligence that is measuring time.

Black holes do not mess with time. They mess with the perceptions of time that the observer has who is outside the effects of the black hole.

For me, I would say, the mid-Atlantic ridge. Or some such place.

Regards.

bob-linux-user
January 25th, 2013, 06:36 PM
A sociologist maybe talking about isolated cultures. Google the following for some ideas:
isolated cultures no concept of time

sunfromhere
January 25th, 2013, 07:29 PM
isolated cultures no concept of time

This. In archaeology we've had examples of villages in Romania that were used as an current example of neolithic house-building, and numerous tribes were used as an example of the paleolithic way of life (the way we think of paleolithic based on the evidence compared to their way of life).

But, quick google search gives this, perhaps it's worth reading?
http://tas.sagepub.com/content/1/1/81.abstract

forrestcupp
January 25th, 2013, 08:26 PM
I would choose the latitude and longitude of any place on planet Earth without even temporary human inhabitants as being atemporal because time does not exist without an intelligence that is measuring time.

In that case, why not kill two birds with one stone and choose one of the poles, like wewantutopia said? The poles were the first thing that came to my mind. But I don't have any experience with sociology.

Frogs Hair
January 25th, 2013, 09:25 PM
If atemporal is literally independent or unaffected by time then a location in space would difficult to plot. If it means timeless as in enduring or unchanged there may things or locations thought of that way.

llanitedave
January 25th, 2013, 09:38 PM
But there is no place in the physical universe that isn't affected by time. Time is incorporated into space in the concept of spacetime, and you simply can't have one without the other. If the professor made the claim as an assertion of physical fact, then there's a reason he teaches sociology and not physics.

Even the imaginary lines of latitude and longitude change over time, as continents drift, poles shift, and the tidal bulges migrate.

davidvgregory
January 25th, 2013, 11:37 PM
But there is no place in the physical universe that isn't affected by time. Time is incorporated into space in the concept of spacetime, and you simply can't have one without the other. If the professor made the claim as an assertion of physical fact, then there's a reason he teaches sociology and not physics.

Even the imaginary lines of latitude and longitude change over time, as continents drift, poles shift, and the tidal bulges migrate.

Which is why the only answer that makes any real sense is grahammechanical's anthropic one.

It becomes even more interesting to me when considered viz existentialism:
Since I am the only being whose existence can be proven, spacetime exists only within my consciousness...therefore every place !(me) is atemporal.

Or maybe I just put the wrong mushrooms on my omelette this morning ^.^

coldraven
January 26th, 2013, 01:25 AM
It would have to be somewhere on the planet where it is physically impossible to go.
If no human or animal is there there can be no notion of the passing of time.
Therefore I suggest the middle of a lava lake in Russia or Antarctica.
The prof would probably give me zero score for that :)

fontis
January 26th, 2013, 01:33 AM
But there is no place in the physical universe that isn't affected by time. Time is incorporated into space in the concept of spacetime, and you simply can't have one without the other. If the professor made the claim as an assertion of physical fact, then there's a reason he teaches sociology and not physics.

Even the imaginary lines of latitude and longitude change over time, as continents drift, poles shift, and the tidal bulges migrate.

This!
There can be no lat/long aka "space" without time.
The coordinate asking is what breaks the question!
Counter your professor by forwarding the God paradox.
Mind = blown :D

EDIT:
In retrospect maybe you shouldn't tinker with your professor unless you don't mind risking a fail :P

areteichi
January 26th, 2013, 04:08 AM
The underlying question implied by the question seems to be: what is time?
(There are of course a number of possible meanings.)

If we suppose that time originates with the human beings (in the anthropo-sociological sense of the term), it would then be tempting to point to a place on earth where it is inhabited by no human beings. Yet insofar as every location on earth is mappable according to the longitude/latitude coordinates, any point would turn out anthropomorphic (and hence temporal) regardless of where we designate. In asking you to name a place that is atemporal in terms of longitude/latitude, the question would seem self-defeating. Yet one might want to reply by suggesting that, since time begins with longitude/latitude, it would be impossible to specify according to such coordinates.

Or, to put the matter possibly a bit more straightforwardly, since we structure time according to longitude (in the geographical sense of the term), an atemporal place would be where latitude is either 0 or 180. (Which is to say, the points (0, 0) and (180, 180).) For such a location would have no longitude. (Well, they technically do, but we cannot ascribe any geographical time to them, since they effectively belong to all time zones.) I would be reluctant to describe these points as being atemporal, but that is the best I can think of.

|{urse
January 26th, 2013, 04:16 AM
Try something like, A: The dirt road I travel from beginning to end in a recurring dream about $yourplacefromyourpast $coordinatestoactualroadhere.

sisco311
January 26th, 2013, 04:38 AM
My guess...

This is a question about sociology. In sociology, atemporal is not a physical property. In sociology, atemporal is the assumption that the fundamentals of the logic process is assumed to be unchanging over time/history or location.

Edit: I assume the longitude/latitude part of the question is trying to solicit a response that shows an understanding that the sociological use of atemporal has nothing to to with location.

+1


The students still need to give a latitude and a longitude to get a credit for the course.

Or, they just need to prove to the professor that they understand the difference between atemporal and atemporal. ;)

Paqman
January 26th, 2013, 08:21 AM
Black holes do not mess with time. They mess with the perceptions of time that the observer has who is outside the effects of the black hole.


No, they do affect time itself, any massive object does. Mass warps spacetime, so that two observers (one close to the black hole and one more distant) will record time passing at a different rate to each other.

That's one way to make a time machine actually. Build a space ship and orbit around a very massive black hole and you'll find yourself fast forwarding into the future. Unfortunately there's no way to do the same in reverse.

Warren Hill
January 26th, 2013, 09:03 AM
This will either get you a good mark or a fail depending on the teacher.

But according to this dictionary
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atemporal

Atemporal means independant of time, timeless.

To be truely without time the must be no change, entropy must not exist. I'm not sure if it's possible that this place exists anywhere in the universe. But it does not on the earth the only place where latitude and longitude have any meaning.

So anyone who believes that they have found a place that is atemporal either doesn't understand the meaning or is not looking hard enough.

mJayk
January 26th, 2013, 11:19 AM
I'd probably tell him to stop wasting his life on fail subjects, the question pretty much proves my point. Sound like an 8 year old trying to be cleaver repeating QI.

haqking
January 26th, 2013, 12:10 PM
I have a seen a few posts syaing lon/lat only exists on Earth.

Longitude /Latitude does not only exist on earth, it exists on any known sperical or ellipsoid body to allow us to locate a point using geographical coordinates.

Here you can look up a lon/lat point on mars http://itouchmap.com/?r=mars

and the mars division https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_quadrangles_on_Mars

Space itself is atemporal

Paqman
January 26th, 2013, 12:23 PM
Space itself is atemporal

Actually they use Zulu/UTC in space.

haqking
January 26th, 2013, 12:27 PM
Actually they use Zulu/UTC in space.

I know "we" use UTC/Zulu in space for our own reference.

In physics "space" is theorised as being atemporal.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23969

anywhere man ventures time will exist as it is relative to the observer

haqking
January 26th, 2013, 12:35 PM
I think to the OP your lecturer may be referring to the theory of relativity where the coordinate for atemporal space is considered to be X4.

X4=cxixt

where c is speed of light
i is an imaginary number
and t is duration of material change.

Though this is not lon/lat coordinates

Sylos
January 26th, 2013, 12:42 PM
You could always give him the co-ordinates of my office. It frequently seems to be a place where time seems not to pass. Or if you want to wind up your tutor - give him the co-ordinates of his lecture hall and wait for him to work it out. :D

Cheers

haqking
January 26th, 2013, 12:44 PM
You could always give him the co-ordinates of my office. It frequently seems to be a place where time seems not to pass. Or if you want to wind up your tutor - give him the co-ordinates of his lecture hall and wait for him to work it out. :D

Cheers

lol, too true

fontis
January 26th, 2013, 02:22 PM
You could always give him the co-ordinates of my office. It frequently seems to be a place where time seems not to pass. Or if you want to wind up your tutor - give him the co-ordinates of his lecture hall and wait for him to work it out. :D

Cheers

lol genius :D

Paddy Landau
January 26th, 2013, 02:34 PM
Let us know your prof's answer when you find it out!

Paqman
January 26th, 2013, 03:01 PM
In physics "space" is theorised as being atemporal.

http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showtopic=23969


I don't fully understand the rebuttal to that OP's post, but it doesn't seem his/her ideas are given much credence. Even from my non-expert point of view there are what looks like some serious howlers such as:


Smallest unit of duration and numerical order of material change is Planck time, the biggest is light year.

Even I know that a light year is a unit of distance, not time.

AIUI time is a property of space, and not dependent on being observed. Part of what defines any two points as being separate is the fact that it takes time to move from one to the other.

Paddy Landau
January 26th, 2013, 03:07 PM
Part of what defines any two points as being separate is the fact that it takes time to move from one to the other.
Not necessarily. According to quantum mechanics, an electron (for example) can move from one point to another instantaneously under certain circumstances. Indeed, a particle can, in certain circumstances, exist in two places at the same time.

steeldriver
January 26th, 2013, 03:34 PM
Are any of the other UK oldtimers reminded of that BT commercial from the 80s?

"You got an 'ology!? you're a scientist!"

"Anthony, people will always need plates"

Gremlinzzz
January 26th, 2013, 05:08 PM
atemporal, Independent of time; timeless
Sociology
1. The study of human social behavior, especially the study of the origins, organization, institutions, and development of human society.
2. Analysis of a social institution or societal segment as a self-contained entity or in relation to society as a whole.
:popcorn:maybe he doesn't mean time,might mean culture.
I would guess Europe.

Paddy Landau
January 26th, 2013, 09:30 PM
I would guess Europe.
Europe? Hardly timeless! The place is rich in different ever-changing cultures.

sisco311
January 26th, 2013, 11:16 PM
In physics "space" is theorised as being atemporal.


On my keyboard, "space" is a button.

Atemporality is well defined in physics and in sociology as well.

But this thread is not about physics.

Old_Grey_Wolf
January 27th, 2013, 12:22 AM
The students still need to give a latitude and a longitude to get a credit for the course...

If I had to give a latitude and a longitude in the answer to get a credit, I would give Latitude = 0 to (+/–)90 and Longitude = 0 to (+/–)180. Then explain what atemporal means in sociology.

:lolflag:

We can't give a direct answer; because, that is contrary to the forum's Code of Conduct.


7. While we are happy to serve as a resource for hints and for asking questions when you get stuck and need a little help, the Ubuntu Forums is not a homework service. Please do not post your homework assignments expecting someone else to do it for you. Any such threads will be taken offline and warnings or infractions may be issued.

lisati
January 27th, 2013, 12:36 AM
I'm wondering if the tutor is looking for a qualitative analysis of something that we usually think about in quantative terms.

Gremlinzzz
January 27th, 2013, 12:57 AM
Europe? Hardly timeless! The place is rich in different ever-changing cultures.

:popcorn:true.figure i would cover large land mass,how about some where in Europe?

Space itself is timeless (atemporal).Albert Einstein

http://www.fqxi.org/data/forum-attachments/TIME_IS_RUN_OF_CLOCKS_IN_ATEMPORAL_SPACE.pdf
How about the space station?

davidvgregory
January 27th, 2013, 03:05 AM
On my keyboard, "space" is a button.

:lolflag:

Gremlinzzz
January 27th, 2013, 03:21 AM
:popcorn:How about the space station,checkout where it is;)
http://www.isstracker.com/

llanitedave
January 28th, 2013, 05:04 AM
Space itself is atemporal

Except "space" is essentially a fictional term, since it has no existence on its own. It's continually creating and destroying virtual particles, which, if Hawking is correct, aren't necessarily just "virtual". Vacuum energy seems sufficient for space to be part of spacetime, and neither can exist without the other.

llanitedave
January 28th, 2013, 05:09 AM
Not necessarily. According to quantum mechanics, an electron (for example) can move from one point to another instantaneously under certain circumstances. Indeed, a particle can, in certain circumstances, exist in two places at the same time.

"At the same time". That means there was a time that they wouldn't have existed in either place.

And of course, "under certain circumstances" means "some of the time, but not all of the time".

We simply can't have these discussions without the concept of time intruding. There are only two ways time can disappear: for particle moving at c, and for a universe that is completely empty.

Any non-null existence needs time.

Paddy Landau
January 28th, 2013, 10:13 AM
We simply can't have these discussions without the concept of time intruding.
Yes, I realise. I was referring to the definition of time that Paqman proposed.

Warren Hill
January 28th, 2013, 03:15 PM
Given that this is a sociology lecturer and sociology is the study of societies then the lecturer is probably looking for a society which has changed little over a long time period.

There are isolated societies where this is the case. They are not truly atemporal though.

I won't name any as we are not here to do your homework but a good internet search engine will help.

Grenage
January 28th, 2013, 03:44 PM
On my keyboard, "space" is a button.

Atemporality is well defined in physics and in sociology as well.

But this thread is not about physics.

Indeed, and the constant application of physics theory to sociology, is, quite frankly, painful.

Bucky Ball
January 28th, 2013, 03:49 PM
The longitude and latitude of the location of any computer on the internet. Time In cyberspace and online communities doesn't exist in any real way (and the members of an online community don't necessarily exist in any one timezone). While users may be experiencing, or measuring, time in the 'real' world, the online world exists in an atemporal space, and often so does our experience of it.

Contemporary anthropologists are investigating this space and related implications more seriously now.

Just some thoughts ...

haqking
January 28th, 2013, 05:13 PM
The longitude and latitude of the location of any computer on the internet. Time In cyberspace and online communities doesn't exist in any real way (and the members of an online community don't necessarily exist in any one timezone). While users may be experiencing, or measuring, time in the 'real' world, the online world exists in an atemporal space, and often so does our experience of it.

Contemporary anthropologists are investigating this space and related implications more seriously now.

Just some thoughts ...

Internet Time has been around since late 90's ;-)

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/internettime.html

llanitedave
January 28th, 2013, 07:25 PM
The longitude and latitude of the location of any computer on the internet. Time In cyberspace and online communities doesn't exist in any real way (and the members of an online community don't necessarily exist in any one timezone). While users may be experiencing, or measuring, time in the 'real' world, the online world exists in an atemporal space, and often so does our experience of it.

Contemporary anthropologists are investigating this space and related implications more seriously now.

Just some thoughts ...

I wouldn't call that atemporal as much as transtemporal.

Or even supertemporal.