Avoid 'Web perils:' Get yourself a Mac [Archive]

rcarring

July 6th, 2006, 04:32 PM

I have used Macs and PCs.

While a Mac is very versatile, they are a lot more expensive than PCs to buy. For example, there is a new iMac for students coming out priced at around $900, a similar machine by Dell would cost half this price (after instant discounts and mail-in rebates). Both are desktop machines.

The same applies to old Dell C600s which appear on eBay every day, and usually sell for around $250. They come with Windows 2000 and are ex-corporate machines.

Old Powerbooks such as the Pismo sell for around $400 - $500.

Most people want a cheap computer that runs the software they have been given, bought or downloaded. They don't want to spend more than 15 minutes getting the machine running.

Macs work out-of-the-box.

aysiu

July 6th, 2006, 04:38 PM

Macs work out-of-the-box. Of course they do. The operating system is preloaded.

Unfortunately, what bars a lot of people from migrating from one system to another (say Windows to Mac, for example) is software. If you've spent over US$1000 on software for Windows and then bought a Mac... suddenly your Microsoft Office won't work there. Neither will your Adobe Creative Suite for Windows. Neither will your Quicken. The list could go on and on.

After all, this is what stops a lot of Ubuntu migrants, too--at least the ones who post on these forums. They're used to certain Windows software, and when it's not there, they complain. At least migrating from Windows to Ubuntu, you can shell out only a little money and get Crossover Office in order to use the software you've already bought. It's not as easy migrating from Windows to Mac or Mac to Windows.

stig

July 6th, 2006, 04:53 PM

The big difference is that you buy a Mac computer with software already installed, just as you do with most PCs with Windows already installed.

But Linux is very different - there aren't many computers available around the world with Ubuntu already installed.

And that's a frightening prospect for the average computer user who has always been given the software with the computer and doesn't even know the term "operating system".

Mr. Picklesworth

July 6th, 2006, 05:20 PM

One thing I know for sure is that this security firm should NOT be pouring money into Apple's pockets by advertising them as the only solution.
For the sake of good business, they should instead be more subtly suggesting that people worried about security switch to an alternative operating system, such as Mac OS or Linux.
An argument that tells people to go out and spend $1500 on a new computer rarely succeeds.

The problem is, Joe Consumer sees Linux as a towering text-filled terminal of doom... and they're too used to the black and white Windowsish terminal. (I find the terminal in Linux to be quite nice looking, by comparison :P).

If something big happens that causes a Windows -> Mac migration, I'll be the first on my block to start posting Ubuntu pamphlets on billboards.

The first thing the average user has to see is a screenshot that makes them think "hey, this really isn't so bad!". It has to look distinctly different from Windows so nobody thinks that it's just some office suite, but it also has to look similar to avoid scaring them. (Just have the right programs running).

Instead of lecturing about what an OS is, they could be told, quite simply, that it is a replacement for Windows that doesn't need a new PC and won't cost them any more of their hard-earned money. Instructions follow after they've been persuaded to pick up a free CD. (Maybe displayed with a Windows autorun thing).
People who know what an operating system is would probably recognize Linux as an OS, so no need to say the word.

Well, that's my thoughts on the matter :)

stig

July 12th, 2006, 12:23 PM

One of the best things we could do would be to tell all those people who buy a new PC with Vista on it not to throw away their old computer.

Then, once they have transferred all their Windows data to the new Vista PC they could use the old PC for experimenting with Ubuntu. This way they wouldn't feel there was so much danger in trying out Linux. A lot of ordinary folk are frightened by things like dual partitions - I know, I was!

They could try installing Ubuntu as a dual partition on the old PC and it would give them confidence. Or just take the simple route and wipe the Windows and try pure Ubuntu.

mech7

July 12th, 2006, 01:04 PM

Well yeah OS X is the more logic solution as almost every large software company compiles for mac these days..

Photoshop
Dreamweaver
Office
Flash
Maya
Zbrush
etc etc...

edit: Also I don't think Linux is ready yet for the majority as you still need to work to much with commands.. the device manager kinda blows.. and more imprtantly the installing and removing in software is not what it should be.

Also windows is really not that hard to protect.. I have never had spyware or virusses in 4/5 year.. just install all updates and get a good scanner like Nod32 :)

bruce89

July 12th, 2006, 01:24 PM

.. and more imprtantly the installing and removing in software is not what it should be.
Could you elaborate on that point? Installing programs is not the same as on Windows, and it should never be.

Also windows is really not that hard to protect.. I have never had spyware or virusses in 4/5 year.. just install all updates and get a good scanner like Nod32 :)

Please note that this is not required in Linuxes.

raffytaffy

July 12th, 2006, 01:32 PM

danger in trying out linux? the only danger is using windows :))

Footissimo

July 12th, 2006, 01:47 PM

Also windows is really not that hard to protect.. I have never had spyware or virusses in 4/5 year.. just install all updates and get a good scanner like Nod32 :)

I have to disagree, you just have to get lucky and hope that the person(s) using it don't tend to visit dodgy sites or click on email attachments / links. Whilst it may be all 'fun to come' for Linux, there is no enjoyment out of spending 5 hours clearing out over 400 detected pieces of malware on my ex's computer or 1.5 hours clearing out my sister's computer (I gave up in the end and suggest that she drops the computer off at my house and I'll reinstall XP for her..she's still using it..and god it was slow 2-3 months ago). Even my Mum's XP computer managed to get a java byteverify virus on it and I installed avast/blaster/defender/zonealarm and configured it to autoupdate as much as it can (she uses Ubuntu now).

The only people in RL who I've found that are using Win and are and have always been malware-free are those that are either:

i) Not connected to the internet
ii) People who rarely use the internet and / or use it reeeally carefully
iii) People who have their head in the sand and think that, if they can't see the malware, then they must be free of it
iv) Fibbing

There are many things to like about 2k / XP..but security isn't one of them

bruce89

July 12th, 2006, 01:51 PM

Offtopic, but I couldn't resist.

Avoid 'Web perils:' Get yourself a Mac
And wipe the drive and install Ubuntu on it!

As MS said themselves, there is no patch for not being technically able.

mech7

July 12th, 2006, 02:19 PM

bruce89

July 12th, 2006, 02:24 PM

Modifying text files for adding repositories? Umm why? Just give me one installer and let programs update themself indivdually when they need to.

The way it is done in windows has a security risk, you could download any program of a website and install it.
Anyway, you don't have to modify any text files to add a repository. Many programs don't have an update procedure (OO.o, so security flaws could remain in the program.

Problem Exists Between Chair And Computer...

No need to attack people like that.

*Would you like to install this program FREE PORN!!!!

"Enter your administrator password to install this program :rolleyes: "

*user types 12345.. woohoo free porn..

How would this program get a dialog box up? A repository including the program would have to be added before it could be installed.

I mean really there is no way to protect people who don't know what they are doing. You can run windows without any trouble if you know what you are doing!

You obviously don't like linux, so don't use it. Nobody is forcing you to.

Footissimo

July 12th, 2006, 02:55 PM

Could you elaborate on that point? Installing programs is not the same as on Windows, and it should never be.

Modifying text files for adding repositories? Umm why? Just give me one installer and let programs update themself indivdually when they need to.

Problem Exists Between Chair And Computer...

No matter how save you make it no matter how smart software is the user is always the weak link

*Would you like to install this program FREE PORN!!!!

"Enter your administrator password to install this program :rolleyes: "

*user types 12345.. woohoo free porn..

I mean really there is no way to protect people who don't know what they are doing. You can run windows without any trouble if you know what you are doing!

I'm seeing my sister later - I'll tell her that some guy off the internet reckons that all she has to do is to stop downloading porn and don't install anything that requires an admin password and she'll be fine.

Of course, the fact that you can get malware from any number of sources..that naughty malware-makers will do anything to make you accidently download their wares (pun intended)..that sometimes very legit sounding stuff can have malware on it (Sony, anyone?)..that sometimes friends and family may accidently send you malware..that having just one anti-spyware/virus program is sometimes not sufficient..that your computer can be compromised just by being on the internet...that not installing anything that requires an admin pass will restrict your use of programs to a large extent...*breeeeathe*...doesn't matter at all. :)

mech7

July 12th, 2006, 03:42 PM

I Don't hate Linux i like Ubuntu but i am not a fanboy who won't use Windows because it is made by the devil :)

You obviously don't like linux, so don't use it. Nobody is forcing you to.

Really this is the only valid point which makes windows less secure, that is default under an administrator account.. But people who don't know what they are doing or what they are installing will enter the password anyway :confused:

that not installing anything that requires an admin pass will restrict your use of programs to a large extent...*breeeeathe*...doesn't matter at all.

bruce89

July 12th, 2006, 04:17 PM

Really this is the only valid point which makes windows less secure, that is default under an administrator account.. But people who don't know what they are doing or what they are installing will enter the password anyway :confused:

I'll say it again, but more clearly:

The only way things can be installed in Ubuntu is with apt. Everything has to be on a online repository. For spyware to get into Ubuntu, it would have to add its repository to /etc/apt/sources.list, and then install the software. Either that, or ask somebody to manually add the deb line. Even after that, somebody would have to authorise it with their password.

Footissimo

July 12th, 2006, 04:24 PM

Really this is the only valid point which makes windows less secure, that is default under an administrator account.. But people who don't know what they are doing or what they are installing will enter the password anyway :confused:

It's a moot point, most home users run as admin for reasons that don't necessarily include the words "laziness" or "lack of knowledge", here (http://pluralsight.com/wiki/default.aspx/Keith/HallOfShame.html)'s a list of just some of the programs that can't be run as limited user in XP Home (or need permission modified in Pro). Unfortunately, XP doesn't stress how important it is to run under a LUA and you boot as admin anyhoo after install. Hopefully this will all change under Vista, but until then, XP security will continue to be a mare.

bruce89

July 12th, 2006, 04:27 PM

Hopefully this will all change under Vista...

...where it will nag you out of doing anything at all.

If you start up an "unapproved" program (firefox) it will ask you if you want to start it or not.

3rdalbum

July 12th, 2006, 04:33 PM

I'll say it again, but more clearly:
The only way things can be installed in Ubuntu is with apt. Everything has to be on a online repository. For spyware to get into Ubuntu, it would have to add its repository to /etc/apt/sources.list, and then install the software. Either that, or ask somebody to manually add the deb line. Even after that, somebody would have to authorise it with their password.

...or it would download through the web browser (maybe courtesy of a Javascript), then convince the user to change the permissions on the file to allow execution, then convince the user to run it...

...or somehow find a security hole in the kernel, exploit it, and hope that nobody fixes the security hole. Either way, it's not likely.

Modifying text files for adding repositories? Umm why?

Do it graphically then. When I first started using Ubuntu, that's how I added Universe and Multiverse and all the others.

Just give me one installer and let programs update themself indivdually when they need to.

Ahh, but it's not really one installer, is it? Every time you download a program, you're downloading a full installer program too. You're also downloading a whole heap of code to allow programs to update themselves. If you want to update your whole system to the latest versions, you've gotta run every single program!

No, Linux package management is the most sensible way yet. As strange as it sounds, I love having the program install itself, rather than have to constantly click the "Next" button for everything.

aysiu

July 12th, 2006, 04:49 PM

I consider centralized package management a convenience. I'm speaking only for myself. I don't presume to speak for some mythical "average user."

My needs are fairly simple, but every now and then I need to do something weird (like bulk rename files or bulk resize pictures or whatnot), and it's great to know I have a one-stop "shopping" place that's free. I can just fire up Synaptic and search by name and/or description for something and find easily-installable and freely available software.

I change my sources.list twice a year, which doesn't seem that big a deal to me, because I usually just do a find/replace on the release name.

In my Windows days, it was doing Google searches, weeding out non-software results, trying to find a program that was cost-free, spyware-free, and not just a 30-day trial. I considered that a big pain in the ***.

My image needs aren't at a professional level, so I don't need Adobe Creative Suite--GIMP, Inkscape, and Scribus suit me more than just fine. I don't even know what AutoCAD is. I don't game. I don't create Flash.

Now, I will agree about one thing--if you're a dumb user and there are people out to get you, it won't matter how good security is set up. If your password is an easy to guess password, and you're freely willing to give it up for anything, and Ubuntu becomes a bigger target, people will start making "easy installers for Ubuntu" that are really spyware, and you will double-click on some .deb and give your password away and install some malware.

As Seinfeld once said, "No, I spent all my money on the Clapco 3000. It's the sophisticated lock on the market. It has but one design flaw. The door... must be closed!"

mech7

July 12th, 2006, 06:15 PM

Yes well this would all be fine and dandy if everything was in there.. but it's not..

So you still have to figure out how to convert rpm to .deb and how to install .bin files through the terminal.. and add each entry into the menu as it does make one automatically...

Also when downloading seperate files the claim that you can't get malicious code does not count.. Also who can guarentee me that files downloaded through the repostory can't hamr me ?

With windows you know what you are going to get.. you download file install and Start -> All programs and it's there.. With Ubuntu usually install through the terminal find out where it installed itself.. open the menu editor, try to look if there is an icon for it.. :(

aysiu

July 12th, 2006, 06:19 PM

I can guarantee you the repository files won't harm you.

But you're right about the separately downloaded files, which was my point earlier--if someone is stupid enough to give her password away for everything and download anything... it's not that difficult to create malware for Ubuntu.

Getting that malware into the Ubuntu repositories--that's another story.

With windows you know what you are going to get.. Tell that to all the Windows users who get spyware.

Yes well this would all be fine and dandy if everything was in there.. but it's not..

So you still have to figure out how to convert rpm to .deb and how to install .bin files through the terminal.. and add each entry into the menu as it does make one automatically... I don't. And I said I was speaking strictly for me. Ubuntu's repositories suit my needs. If they don't suit yours, you can use something else.

mech7

July 12th, 2006, 06:24 PM

aysiu

July 12th, 2006, 06:27 PM

](*,) For most spyware the user still has to click yes to allow a program to install... Also you don't get my point I wasto refering as to where you software will install and where you can quickly acces it.
I was responding to your claim that in Windows you know what you're going to get. Most Windows users I know don't know they're going to get spyware when they click "yes."

bruce89

July 12th, 2006, 06:27 PM

... With Ubuntu usually install through the terminal find out where it installed itself.. open the menu editor, try to look if there is an icon for it.. :(

I have to admit, this can be a problem, but most programs include a menu icon.

I also admit that there is a limited selection of software in the repositories, but it is getting bigger with each release.

Half the fun of installing stuff on Windows is seeing if it turns out to be spyware or not.

aysiu

July 12th, 2006, 06:30 PM

Half the fun of installing stuff on Windows is seeing if it turns out to be spyware or not. You get very good at reading the terms of use before clicking OK...

bruce89

July 12th, 2006, 06:34 PM

You get very good at reading the terms of use before clicking OK...

Usually I'd promise myself browse it to see if they want my rabbit's kidneys if I use thier stuff for more than 43 days, but then I'd get fed up after the all the CAPITAL LETTERS.

This reminds me, why doesn't Ubuntu ask you to agree to the GPL when installing, as it should? I realise that nobody wouldn't accept it, but it's a legal requirement(?).

mech7

July 12th, 2006, 07:31 PM

And you really think that for these users it would be any different on Linux?

I was responding to your claim that in Windows you know what you're going to get. Most Windows users I know don't know they're going to get spyware when they click "yes."

aysiu

July 12th, 2006, 07:41 PM

And you really think that for these users it would be any different on Linux?
No, I don't. Clearly you just want to be argumentative instead of actually reading my posts. Go back and read them. I think if Ubuntu became more popular (i.e., a bigger target for malware writers) and attracted a lot of dumb users with easy-to-guess passwords who also download software from sketchy places and give their password for anything, then it would be no different.

The repositories fit my needs, but a lot of users will download software from the internet in general instead of sticking to Ubuntu repositories.
Now, I will agree about one thing--if you're a dumb user and there are people out to get you, it won't matter how good security is set up. If your password is an easy to guess password, and you're freely willing to give it up for anything, and Ubuntu becomes a bigger target, people will start making "easy installers for Ubuntu" that are really spyware, and you will double-click on some .deb and give your password away and install some malware.

As Seinfeld once said, "No, I spent all my money on the Clapco 3000. It's the sophisticated lock on the market. It has but one design flaw. The door... must be closed!"
But you're right about the separately downloaded files, which was my point earlier--if someone is stupid enough to give her password away for everything and download anything... it's not that difficult to create malware for Ubuntu.