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moclippa
July 6th, 2006, 03:00 AM
A few days ago I formatted my Ubuntu install in favor of Suse... I felt terrible doing it and figured I should explain myself a bit.

There were a few reasons to what drove me to do what I did, and why I felt it was a bit traitorous... but I figured by opening up a discussion about it, we could hopefully have a dialogue into what could make Ubuntu better, and keep users like me on.

First of all I should note that I was a recent migrant from Windows to Linux, and Ubuntu was my first install. In fact this OS is what birthed my love for Linux installs and insured I'll most likely have at least one distro up on a computer for the next few years (if not longer). It taught me to appreciate the great work coming out of the open source community, the difference between free beer and speech as well as opened me (a relatively non-techie type) up to traditionally techie software. Not to mention the fact that Mr. Shuttleworth is a family friend... which made the betrayl all the more bitter.

Why did I leave? Well it all comes down to the technical hurdles. Ubuntu makes a point of defining itself as a distro anyone, including your grandmother, should be able to use... and it isn't. I have specific needs and expectations from an OS, and though I had enough time to mess around with it to get it working the way I needed it to (thanks in part to fantastic scripts like EasyUbuntu and Automatix), as well as loved the User community support... it just didn't work how I needed it to out of the box, and I felt I constantly had to tinker with it.

Suse 10.1 gave me fantastic media support, and out of the box worked perfectly alongside my Windows install without me having to resolve to Samba or the like to access my NTFS drive for reading. Though the system itself was inherently severely buggy compared to Ubuntu, it gave me reason to keep it on simply because of that level of integrattion. To be fair though, this is thanks in part to Suse's offical use of new kernels as opposed to Ubuntu's use of older kernels (I know I know, you can install a new kernel unoffically... but thats not really what I saw myself as being capable of doing too well without breaking the OS)

Furthermore I've always felt Ubuntu was never hitting the mark of being the distro it tries to advertise itself as being... I'd say its fantastic for a midlevel linux user, but for Windows babies like myself, it was a bit tough to keep up with.

Synaptic and Apt-get were stunning to use too, and are far superior to Suse's YaST... but still the constant command line and text line editting kept scaring me away... though the user community certainly made it easier to bare with, I felt I spent too much time editting code then actually enjoying a system... which isn't what a Windows baby like myself wants to do at all. My Ubuntu roots are all over my Suse install though, since one of the first things I did was cut out YaST for a combination of Apt-Get/Smart.

I think Ubuntu has the foundations to be capable of being the distro it wants to be (but isn't)... it just needs work. There should be more effort to try to look into forums and integrate the solutions that come about in their more often into the OS. There should also be greater effort into increasing its User Friendliness, i.e. trying to find ways to keep users off constantly being on the terminal or in swamped in code, or surfing around the net, and integrate specific solutions directly through updates specifically tailor-made for Ubuntu. If the OS wants to shine, it has to set itself apart from the competition by a more active effort on the part of its development community.

I understand a lot of this comes about from a problems being specific to certain hardware configurations and/or a lack of consensus on the part of developers on specific standards, but Ubuntu (backed by Shuttleworths exentensive and appreciated funding) is in a unique position to enhance some aspects of its R&D.

For now I'm sticking with Suse, possibly untill the next major Ubuntu update... I'll give it a shot again then.

It'd be great if people listed similar concerns up here.

T700
July 6th, 2006, 03:08 AM
I'm happy that you found a new home in the Linux family, but I'm not sure if I'd trade a bit of command line typing for, "Though the system itself was inherently severely buggy compared to Ubuntu..."

Each to her/his own--the beauty of choice. Best wishes and good luck!

Paul

briancurtin
July 6th, 2006, 03:15 AM
i still dont get why anyone would feel terrible or like a traitor when leaving a distro.

i left SuSE for ubuntu and woke up the next day the same man i was the previous day. i left ubuntu for arch and didnt blink.

moclippa
July 6th, 2006, 03:32 AM
=) Thats what I love about these forums, all the quick replies!

T700 - Suse can be buggy, but for now its out of the box compatability is whats keeping me on board

Brain - I know what you mean, but Ubuntu is what birthed me into Linux, so it felt weird leaving it for something else... but you are right, hundreds of distros, switching between shouldn't be that bad a feeling.

zenwhen
July 6th, 2006, 03:33 AM
I left Slackware for Ubuntu because Patrick dropped Gnome.

RAV TUX
July 6th, 2006, 03:36 AM
One question:

Are the SUSE user forums as good as the Ubuntu user forums?


(Good News glad to see you didn't cross over to Windows or Apple)


Once you go Linux you never go back

moclippa
July 6th, 2006, 03:42 AM
No Yozef... no where near as good. Then again, maybe I haven't found the right forum... but I'm most likely going to stick around here whenever possible, just because I like the community.

Johnsie
July 6th, 2006, 05:25 AM
Mo, I agree with all your points. I don't think Ubuntu is quite ready for the masses. It's pretty close and the main things they need to be working on are making easy to use, good looking, intuitive dummy-proof user interfaces.

Some people may like going into the command line or editing settings in text files but for a lot of people that's like going back to the mid 90's or learning a whole new style of computing. A lot of basic users want things to work easily, with point and click. By all means keep the terminal and data files for the people who like to hack around but really if this is Linux for humans then it has to be "point and click" for the basic users. People should not have to know all kinds of crazy commands or the ins and outs of how their operating system works :-)

I don't think Ubuntu is far from being "point and click" but there's still a lot of work to be done.

KingBahamut
July 6th, 2006, 05:32 AM
I left Slackware for Ubuntu because Patrick dropped Gnome.


You too huh Zen.

heeh.

Jucato
July 6th, 2006, 06:24 AM
It's ok moclippa. The only "traitors" are those who lie. You are neither. :D

I think the notion of Ubuntu being a Linux desktop distro that "anyone" could use is a bit flawed, incomplete, or just misunderstood.

1. It's a Linux distro that anyone could "use". Keyword is use. Installing is an entirely different matter. It seems that "use" and "install" has somewhat become equated, partly because of the ease of (the basic) installation. But installation doesn't stop there. Installation also involves setting things up.

2. Not everyone has or will prefer to advocate/use open formats like OGG. By not having complete multimedia support, the phrase "anyone could use" is further narrowed down to "anyone who would want to use open formats" or to "anyone who can install support for proprietary formats/codecs/plugins", which brings us back to issue #1.

3. I like (not love nor adore) the command line. I was born into the world of computing through it. At 11 yrs of age, I was impressing older people at how much I could do with MS-DOS and simple .bat files. It also makes me feel a bit "sci-fi"-ish (now a touchscreen 19" monitor with an onscreen keyboard would complete that feeling). But not everyone is like me. Not everyone has to courage to face the blinking white cursor over the blank black screen. And as more and more people, most of whom exhibit a severe case of repetitive-point-and-click syndrome, the need for more GUI-based processes increases. Without disregarding the age-old Linux heritage of the command line, one can still provide a working GUI app. In fact, what are GUI's if not windowed and buttoned front-ends to CLI commands (with the exception of some programs like word processors, image editors, etc)? But this lack of GUI-based configuration tools/processes is not a fault of Ubuntu alone. It just so happens that SUSE (and Fedora) have them, probably because they are older and have more developers. But still, it would do some good if more people did get involved in development. I long to see the day that Ubuntu develops it's own Configuration Editor/Control Center program (similar to what kubuntu devs did with System Settings, but they only really just rearranged/repatched KControl).If I could code (in fact, I'm learning), the first program I'm gonna make is probably a small Python-based GUI for ADSL/DSL PPPoE configuration.

Oh dear, I ranted again. Anyway, you're still welcome here moclippa. It may be the Ubuntuforums, but it's part of being "humanity towards others" that we welcome everyone. :D

RAV TUX
July 6th, 2006, 06:26 AM
No Yozef... no where near as good. Then again, maybe I haven't found the right forum... but I'm most likely going to stick around here whenever possible, just because I like the community.

Ubuntuforums will always be your home, no matter what Distro you use.;)

Adamant1988
July 6th, 2006, 06:29 AM
moclippa you sound like a user who wouldn't be upset with using Linspire (yeah you have to pay for it but you get what you pay for)

RAV TUX
July 6th, 2006, 06:32 AM
Mo, I agree with all your points. I don't think Ubuntu is quite ready for the masses.
There is an old saying:

"The masses are the asses"
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4837/10somaliwildasses2kd.th.jpg (http://img144.imageshack.us/my.php?image=10somaliwildasses2kd.jpg)
(somali wild asses)

woedend
July 6th, 2006, 06:54 AM
i agree with yozef haha.
I liked ubuntu much much more in its early days, when it wasnt as dumbed down and bloated (AKA for the masses)... it seemed much faster and cleaner
But in any event stick around, a large number of us don't even use ubuntu.

richbarna
July 6th, 2006, 07:37 AM
i agree with yozef haha.
I liked ubuntu much much more in its early days, when it wasnt as dumbed down and bloated (AKA for the masses)... it seemed much faster and cleaner
But in any event stick around, a large number of us don't even use ubuntu.

How dare you come here if you don't use ubuntu !!!
Only kidding ;)
I agree with all these points that have been raised, and yes this forum is a great place to hang out.

Moclippa, at the end of the day, you just need to use a distro that works for you.(Have you told Shuttleworth?)
"Using" Ubuntu is ready for the masses, "installing" is getting there, "setting it up" is another thing.(This forum is proof of that little problem)

I like the command line personally, and am really enjoying the learning process, it makes me feel that I am using Linux, but with point'n'click gui just in case.

I also agree with woedend that the older ubuntu's, Hoary & Breezy, seemed faster and less bloated and as the distro progresses I hope it doesn't do the same as windows and force the need for 1Gb RAM, Bigger graphics cards and faster Processors.(My office is a computer bone-yard with lots of old parts that I like to swap and change from time to time)

Anyway, good luck with Suse !
Come back here to hang out.

kabus
July 6th, 2006, 07:55 AM
I liked ubuntu much much more in its early days, when it wasnt as dumbed down and bloated (AKA for the masses)... it seemed much faster and cleaner


I've been using Ubuntu since Warty and although I sometimes disagree with development decisions it is certainly still the least bloated of all the "user-friendly" distros and is has gotten faster with every release.

g7kse
July 6th, 2006, 08:31 AM
I'm in a similar boat moclippa. I've dipped in and out of Linux for a couple of years now and it is getting better for us less technical minded. I don't think that I'll swap over completely from Windows until I can run some very specialist windows based software that I use in Linux (Currently the alternatives don't match up).

I too find the command line stuff complicated and a bit of a pain some of the time but other times it's quicker and simpler. My over riding memory of all the distro's I've tried (including Linspire) was that they are frustratingly close but the cigar is out of reach

It's true Ubuntu is easy to use, update etc but having to refer to forums to install flash plugins for firefox for example doesn't really help matters and I'm sorry to say that's what will turn a few people off.

I like Ubuntu and will carry on perservering with it but it's a long way off being my sole OS purely due to the frustrations and the point you mentioned

Alex

Derek Djons
July 6th, 2006, 09:10 AM
Synaptic and Apt-get were stunning to use too, and are far superior to Suse's YaST... but still the constant command line and text line editting kept scaring me away... though the user community certainly made it easier to bare with, I felt I spent too much time editting code then actually enjoying a system... which isn't what a Windows baby like myself wants to do at all. My Ubuntu roots are all over my Suse install though, since one of the first things I did was cut out YaST for a combination of Apt-Get/Smart.

I originate from SuSE. I have been working with the distributions while it still beared version numbers such as 7.3. I made the switch to Ubuntu because I found the system and it's structure more transparant than SuSE. While Ubuntu faces some (minor) problems with there 'out of the box' story it's very easy to upgrade yourself with the necessary items and rock on. Ubuntu is the first Linux distribution of which I understand fully all features and components when I have to deal with them for example like installing a new kernel. Now I do have quite some experience with SuSE and Fedora over the years, that helps.

You don't have to feel guilty at all for swapping. I think nobody has found his perfect OS in one time. You can't... the perfect OS only excists if you have abandoned other OS'es for there lacks and problems.

But it's good to hear you still will continue using Linux.

moclippa
July 6th, 2006, 09:41 AM
Thanks for all the great replies people, I have a flight to catch so I can't hit on all the points I wanted to make, but for what its worth....

Hehehe "masses are the asses" I like that one, my new phrase for the next few weeks! I shall terrorize and harrass random passers by on the street with it in a drunken rage!

And yeah, all you people talking about the command prompt needing to stay, I agree with you, its imperetive it does... Good Linux is all about hacking the system to fix it or make it better, but also for using it as your own soft-lego set; the command prompt in that sense has sort of traditionally become a nessesity... though what would be fantastic is to find out how to incorporate that feature more seamlessly into the GUI. Again, that can only come about through further standardization on the part of developers across the board.

Stuff like XGL/Compiz are great ideas, but the focus so far have been on the vain material aspects. I.e. they are great to look at and show off, but after they've run their rounds, I usually disable my 3d desktop. In that sense I think the focus has been slightly pushed the wrong way, more should be done to increase GUI functunality on the basis of Linux's strengths, rather then trying to make it just look as pretty as the mainstream competition....

Dang gotta go, will catch up with the forum as soon as I get a connection!

edoardo
July 6th, 2006, 11:50 AM
Suse 10.1 gave me fantastic media support, and out of the box worked perfectly alongside my Windows install without me having to resolve to Samba or the like to access my NTFS drive for reading.

Samba is used to access a remote system running windows. to access a ntfs drive on the same machine you just mount it (in RO mode) !

It's all too common for new linux users to jump from distro to distro hoping to find the one that will solve all their problems, while it'd be much more educational and effective to stick with one which has good community support and work out all you need, with time.

Since my comeback to linux 3 years ago (previously I used it sporadically but never as "the system") I fell into that mistake initially - but eventually found the package management offered by debian derivatives the most compleling difference and set for MEPIS.
Its problem was the volatility of debian unstable - which they now fixed by using ubuntu repositories as their "backend"!
But before they addressed that it I switched to ubuntu aboun 1 1/2 years ago and although I had to tinker a bit ... I now admin 5 ubuntu machines and am very happy with it.

The main issue I see with users switching to linux is the ability to play restricted content from the web - despite easyubuntu I still encounter occasional probs with streaming windows media ...
That ain't a distro problem, is the consequence of global political decisions that empower corporations not consumers.

Grim_n_Evil
July 6th, 2006, 01:27 PM
I don't think the problem is in the distro, it's in the users. My first encounter with Linux was with Slack 10.2. A friend of mine recommended it as "the best". Well that's what I call hard and not-user-friendly. After 3 months of "use" I never managed to:
1) successfully install a SINGLE application
2) get video
3) get the network running
4) mount... anything
5) get a mouse !!!!!! running (I'm using a laptop)
6) etc, etc, etc
One day I just gave up and googled "easiest linux distribution"
and the first 3-4 hits were Ubuntu. I've been using it for over 2 months and I can say that it IS the easiest and most retarded (I mean in a good way) distribution. The people that introduced me to Linux laugh at me for using it. It's like riding a tricycle. The whole installation and setup went perfectly. Forget Automatix, it messed up my system so much that I had to format and reinstall. As far as I am concerned, it is far easier to use than XP. Maybe I was just lucky to have most of my hardware recognized. Maybe not. The only teenzy-weenzy detail is that you have to read a little bit before doing anything. In my country there is a saying "If you are afraid of bears, don't do in the woods." I will modify it to - "If you are afraid to use the command line, don't install Linux."


PS: It's quite brave of you to call yourself a "Windows baby" in a Linux forum ;)

g7kse
July 6th, 2006, 03:06 PM
You're probably right in a lot of ways grim the command line takes a bit of getting used to again. The last time I remember using it was with DOS and even then I didn't do very well with it.

Ubuntu is without a doubt one of the easier distro's to get to grips with and thankfully is really quick and easy to install and get started. Sometimes its the smallest thing that can cause frustration and whilst its easy to blame the user for being not so bright (which might also be true) some are going to need more hand holding than others whatever the OS.

I'll be keeping mine but for playing about with at home but seeing as my employer only just switched to XP 6 months ago there's little hope in Linux making it mainstream in my business day in the near future (Unless I use a Live CD on my laptop because the 'orrible lot disabled the wireless connection in XP - Which works a treat anyway, just keep that to yourself)

bonzodog
July 6th, 2006, 03:18 PM
You too huh Zen.

heeh.

/me puts his hand up for this one aswell....
Left Slackware for Ubuntu cause Patrick dropped Gnome, AND I wanted 64 bit.....
I have since left Xubuntu for Zenwalk, which is slackware based.

The Traveling Man
January 8th, 2007, 03:28 AM
I just got here and I can't believe how polished this ubuntu is! Like 100 million other people I've wasted weeks of my life away wrestling with W_ _D_ _S. DLL errors, loading drivers, buying buying buying software. Very little ever works like it should. Antivirus software, firewall software, dvd/cd burning software, compatibility issues, missing dll files, missing drivers. "Would you like to download the lates version of Internet Explorer NOW". Yeah, right in the middle of a three day project, I'd like to get sidetracked downloading something that I'll have to shut my computer down for when I'm done.

I've been flirting with Linux just a few days at a time on and off for about six or seven years. I'd download Redhat, Fedora, GNOME, a couple of weeks ago I stumbled upon KNOPPIX. That's what lead me to ubuntu. I downloaded the KNOPPIX live cd and it ran pretty slick. So I grew bold and tried to install it on a hard drive. For whatever reason, it wouldn't install. I was able to learn how to download and burn a bootable ISO image with Infra Recorder.

As I continued to read about ubuntu, my skeptisism...and my curiosity grew. How could someone offer something for FREE that windows can't do for $350??

This past Friday afternoon, I downloaded an ubuntu iso image to my windows based computer and burned the install cd. When I went to bed at midnight, I'd used the ubuntu operating system for the first time in my life. USING the GUI is fairly intuitive. The command line stuff is a little intimidating but I've worked with DOS so I wasn't totally lost. If I can find a clear set of instructions, I can usually follow them.

This is the amazing part. I dug a six year old, pentium II based Gateway desktop off of a shelf in the garage where it had been sitting for two years (not climate controlled). I did put in a new cmos battery before I stored it. I fed this ubuntu install cd into it, and with just a few clicks to answer some configuration questions, the system loaded itself P-E-R-F-E-C-T-L-Y. Not a single 'blah blah blah..driver...blah blah...dll missing...nothing. I've been hammering away at the user documentation and reading the forum for two solid days now. I followed someone's instructions on how to correct my screen resolution issue of not having any option other than the default 600x800. THAT worked perfectly as well. (Now I can't find the damn forum again to even thank the man/woman!

I've still got my windows pc running beside this ubuntu gateway. But you can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to learn as much about this system as I can..as fast as I can. I've searched for a 'contact us' at ubuntu. This is the closest thing I can find so far. My hat is off to a community of software developers that has put so much effort into such a stable product and offered it up to the world for no profit. Unless I stumble upon something a lot worse than a command prompt, I want to be a part of this movement. Lets kill windows!

BarfBag
January 8th, 2007, 03:44 AM
No one's going to think of you less if you change distros (even if it's SUSE, which is under criticism because of the Microsoft-Novell deal). That's what open source is about. Choice.

For me, it's exactly the opposite. I find Ubuntu too easy to use. I feel that I've outgrown it. I'm still searching for a new distro, and SUSE is one of the ones I'm considering. It was my first distro and I used it for years. I switched to Ubuntu to see what all the craze was about. I liked it more then SUSE at the time and stuck with it for close to a year. I'm thinking of going Arch. I was considering Gentoo, but my Linux knowledge isn't nearly that advanced yet.

Johnsie
January 8th, 2007, 05:55 AM
If you're using Suse you're using a lot of the same software anyway....

Hex_Mandos
January 8th, 2007, 06:05 AM
Well, good luck. I installed SUSE a few days ago on an old computer, and I can't say I like it as much as Ubuntu, but it's 5 CD install works much better for a non-networked machine (right now, it's just a box for trying out different distros). Still, I'm glad you enjoy whatever you're using. You can always return to Ubuntu if you feel like it.

bonzodog
January 8th, 2007, 07:21 PM
For me, it's exactly the opposite. I find Ubuntu too easy to use. I feel that I've outgrown it. I'm still searching for a new distro, and SUSE is one of the ones I'm considering. It was my first distro and I used it for years. I switched to Ubuntu to see what all the craze was about. I liked it more then SUSE at the time and stuck with it for close to a year. I'm thinking of going Arch. I was considering Gentoo, but my Linux knowledge isn't nearly that advanced yet.
You might also Think about Zenwalk, as it involves a little more knowledge of the commandline, and not being afraid of having to run entirely from console when breakage occurs (doesn't happen too often luckily). Zenwalk is Slackware based, but is a lot more up to date than slack. 4.2 was released the other day, and it has kernel 2.6.18.6, xorg 7.1.1, python 2.5, and xfce 4.33.99RC2 (I think).

userundefine
January 8th, 2007, 09:39 PM
So, you've stopped using this kind of Linux to use... that kind of Linux. OK!

Seriously, it's all Linux with the same programs. This distribution gives you this configuration tool, that one gives you a different one, but it's all essentially the same. You've moved on from Linux to use more Linux! No problem with that!

Blondie
January 8th, 2007, 10:32 PM
One question:

Are the SUSE user forums as good as the Ubuntu user forums?

IMO no way are the SUSE forums as good as Ubuntu's. The only forums that are in the same league as Ubuntu's are Gentoo's, and even they're not close.

Lord Illidan
January 8th, 2007, 10:36 PM
You might also Think about Zenwalk, as it involves a little more knowledge of the commandline, and not being afraid of having to run entirely from console when breakage occurs (doesn't happen too often luckily). Zenwalk is Slackware based, but is a lot more up to date than slack. 4.2 was released the other day, and it has kernel 2.6.18.6, xorg 7.1.1, python 2.5, and xfce 4.33.99RC2 (I think).

I agree!!

Norradj
February 8th, 2007, 09:05 PM
Interesting thread.
I have been with Ubuntu since Warty. On one PC I have succesfully updated all along to Edgy.
Well, some pain in console mode, but thats was almost 100% related to Nvidia driver including a backport update of Firefox. Last month I spend some time to download and try Knoppix (2 years ago since I tried it last time) live CD. Oh its the same voice in upsatart, funny. Other wise i looks almost the same. Quick to boot and quit. Then I gave Sabayon Live a try, somewhat different (I would say modern compare to knoppix) but still KDE, which I have problems with. Much slower boot and quit than Knoppix. As a conclusion, I, dont have much time to spend on trying distros or playing around with Linux, I'm only curious, Ubuntu works fine and its getting better and better to 99%. The last percentage I think is related to some regression in Gnome now and then after a new release. (Change Nvidia screen refresh rate and screen resolution, SMB in Nautilus, burn ISOs in gnome).
For those people like me, curious on alternatives to Windows and happy to switch, but don't have much time to spend on setting up and thinker, Ubuntu is the right thing.

Adamant1988
February 8th, 2007, 09:11 PM
i still dont get why anyone would feel terrible or like a traitor when leaving a distro.

i left SuSE for ubuntu and woke up the next day the same man i was the previous day. i left ubuntu for arch and didnt blink.

It's called loyalty. Be it brand loyalty, or just loyalty to the community.

cowlip
February 8th, 2007, 09:37 PM
One question:

Are the SUSE user forums as good as the Ubuntu user forums?


(Good News glad to see you didn't cross over to Windows or Apple)

Not in any way, shape or form, nuh uh.

doobit
February 8th, 2007, 10:03 PM
I always try to encourage people to find the distro that does best what you need to accomplish. I personally use three different distros on a regular basis, but Xbuntu is my main squeeze. The other two serve special purposes. I also have been playing around with Sabyon, but I need to build a more powerful computer before I can use it regularly.

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 10:54 PM
It's called loyalty. Be it brand loyalty, or just loyalty to the community.
Indeed. I feel like a cad or a bounder whenever I boot Knoppix or SLAX.

justaguynpc
February 8th, 2007, 11:45 PM
Re: Why I left Ubuntu...
Quote:
Originally Posted by zenwhen
I left Slackware for Ubuntu because Patrick dropped Gnome.

You too huh Zen.

heeh.
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